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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 05:56:46 AM
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Is meditation just a simple relaxation tool or is this supposed to be more going on? When i read about people's experiences here they seem to have all kinds of wonderful things happen to them and they just don't seem to want to happen to me.
I lie down in my bed, relax to get into the mood, and then start repeating I AM. My breathing seems to become shallower after a little time and then my head starts hurting. I try to make the mantra musical because my mind likes to sing songs that interfere. I try my best to concentrate on the mantra, whenever i notice i am off it i gently try to bring my attention back. And over and over again this happens. I don't "plunge" inwards (everything is surface consciousness all the time). I try to forget thoughts as they arise, and i can do this to no end but some thoughts just won't go away. I try to have no expectations whatsoever and just try to relax. When i finish, which is about 20 mins later, my body feels calmer but my head hurts.
I've been meditating on and off for the last 6 years and this is my repeated experience.
Is meditation about trying to fall asleep but remain aware? Is relaxation supposed to be so much that you are trying to fall asleep but stay awake? What is this "plunge" business that i hear about often?
What is bliss?
How do people meditate and think of God at the same time? Isnt this contradictory and against the process of meditation?
I just must be doing something wrong. I have a high IQ so it isnt as if i didn't understand the instructions. I followed them to the best of my ability. Something just doesn't seem fair. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 06:54:17 AM
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From what I remember last time you wrote, you have a problem with toxic substances like alcohol.
Gumpi wrote:
quote:
But this drinking and smoking problem is destroying me and i find it almost impossible to stop. I don't think there is any point in me trying to meditate until i stop these things.
I'd say that is your main problem if you haven't quit by now, not the meditation technique. I believe the journey doesn't start until you are determined enough to get your life straight. First things first. Your longing for getting clean must be stronger than your longing for mud.
You got advice on 12-step programs before from several persons here. Have you tried it yet?
/emc, memory expert and quite frank when I find it necessary  |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 08:19:55 AM
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Respectfully, i cannot accept that the problem is substance intake because i don't take them very often and i have known of many people who did and they were sucessful with meditation. When you say "when the journey starts" it makes it sound as if it has something to do with God as if God withholds some type of grace, which is an idea i do not accept.
I'm beginning to suspect that there is nothing more to meditation than simple relaxation. Perhaps my "problem" is that i just am not prone to suggestion and so all these fancy experiences people talk about like bliss, chakras, void etc are just hypnosis.
I also do not understand why the I AM mantra would be any different to any other word or thought. I don't buy into the idea that it has magical vibratory qualities. Anything magical makes me run the other way, and fast.
Quite frankly, it is insulting to me when people say to me, "keep practising". I have been practising - for 6 years!!! Why don't the people here who have psychic abilities from meditation tell me what i am doing wrong? Is it because psychic abilities don't exist? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 09:23:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I'm beginning to suspect that there is nothing more to meditation than simple relaxation. Perhaps my "problem" is that i just am not prone to suggestion and so all these fancy experiences people talk about like bliss, chakras, void etc are just hypnosis.
The problem with that theory is that many people came here seeking help or explanations for existing experiences, and many had never heard of a chakra.
quote:
I also do not understand why the I AM mantra would be any different to any other word or thought. I don't buy into the idea that it has magical vibratory qualities. Anything magical makes me run the other way, and fast.
Yeah, it's hard for me to take that stuff too. Fortunately there's little of it at AYP. Frankly, assuming that you read the forums and lessons with some regularity, I don't know how you can think that AYP has a magical bent. There are enough cynics here to ward off the faeries, and I've seen few weak notions go unchallenged. In truth, the tenor of the forum leans toward skepticism, so you're in good company. :)
quote:
Quite frankly, it is insulting to me when people say to me, "keep practising". I have been practising - for 6 years!!!
Well then, STOP practicing and see what happens. Maybe AYP isn't for you. But it probably has the least amount of psychobabble in terms of a style of meditation, so you might be even more offput with another system of practice. Fwiw, I totally get it, Gumpi. It can be very discouraging to read about the great mystical experiences of others, and wonder why you missed the boat. This is why some teachers forbid their students to discuss their experiences with anyone. But for those people who are having major crown issues or the like (not I, mind you..), it's only fair that they should be able to discuss their problems here and get the help they need.
I'd say just focus on your own practice. "Progress" is a tricky word in meditation, so try to let that idea go. Maybe don't lay down when you meditate.
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Edited by - Manipura on Mar 27 2007 09:26:48 AM |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 09:57:06 AM
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People have "experiences" which they then read about and call "chakras" afterwards. Personally, i see no reason to think such things exist.
You said that there is very little "woo" here. I have to disagree. The very words "spinal breathing" raise alarm bells in my mind. Almost every experience that people relate on these forums is woo. Especially the ET and UFO things.
For example, levitation. Has anyone here ever seen a person fly? Not only does this phenomenon only happen in the most bizarre cases but it is not even an accepted fact. Everybody would know about this if it was real, and people like David Blaine wouldnt be imitating it on TV. Yogani refuses to answer the question on whether he can levitate or not, but this is ignorance to me. Another reason i don't understand why levitation isnt known factually is because it is a "siddhi" and nobody ever mentioned anywhere that people without pure hearts couldnt achieve siddhis. Hence there aren't people flying anywhere who are evil and exploit this siddhi. More reason to suspect levitation doesn't actually exist.
So on the woo-factor, i can't accept that there is none of it in AYP. There is more woo here than most other places out there.
What am i to think of the contention that when you daydream on your spinal column that your semen starts to flow into and up your spine? Surely this is complete nonsense!
Where are all the psychic meditators here?
On the subject of a person with paranormal abilities not being willing or feeling to prove they have them, so they don't - this is a cop-out argument. Randi has been waiting 30 plus years. And it never stopped "evil" siddhi persons from showing them. End product: i cannot seriously entertain such incredulous poop.
Isn't it more likely that people BELEIVE they are in a thoughtless state of awareness rather than ACTUALLY being in one? I mean, as far as i know, a person is either conscious or unconscious, awake or asleep and never the twain shall meet. The idea of a thoughtless state makes no sense to me because who is the person that knows they are in it? There is no memory of that state so how can it be known?
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 10:09:05 AM
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Hi gumpi!
You aren't doing anything wrong. You are who you are, and you're probably where you need to be spiritually right now. 
There is no elusive mystical goal to achieve...no magical incantation to chant...no mysterious problem to wrap your mind around. And the only psychic abilities which you may wish to investigate might be those by which the self-programmed suggestions and self-fulfilling prophecies you harbor were created by your own thoughts.  A bit of quality-control from time to time can be quite helpful to anyone. 
Oftentimes, intelligent people pride themselves on their high intellect, and attach themselves to it as a major part of their self-identity. As such, a constantly active mind is viewed as a validation of this intelligence...perhaps even fearing the loss of this great asset in the quietude and silence of meditative practices. 
There is of course the possibility that the Source of All Knowledge...the ultimate engine which empowers all minds...is awaiting your intelligent investigation and discovery within that quietude and silence!  Damn! Wouldn't that be a kicker? 
But it sounds as if you may not be ready for inner exploration of that sort at this point, so just forget about it all until you are...if ever...and end of problem!
Hari OM!
Doc
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Blue Opal
33 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 10:12:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I'd say that is your main problem if you haven't quit by now, not the meditation technique. I believe the journey doesn't start until you are determined enough to get your life straight. First things first. Your longing for getting clean must be stronger than your longing for mud.
Exactly. :)
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Respectfully, i cannot accept that the problem is substance intake because i don't take them very often and i have known of many people who did and they were sucessful with meditation.
How often is not very often?
How can you be so sure they were telling you the truth? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 10:20:18 AM
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Gumpi,
I have my doubts too that the siddhas are real. I do believe the phenomena of Yoga are real though -- I have experienced some of them, and that helps.
There isn't a clear division between the case of a person wrongly believing a thing has a property which it hasn't, and erroneously thinking something exists which does not.
Do people believe that kundalini and/or the chakras have properties which they do not? I think so. These phenomena tend to be interpreted magically, which I think is probably a mistake. So, in that sense, what those people are believing may not exist. But kundalini and the chakras are real under the correct understanding of them, whatever that is.
I actually think the chakras may be, roughly, brain systems. They are subjectively experienced as being 'in' the region of the body that that brain system controls. But they exist in the brain, and chakra phenomena happen in the brain.
I hope that is food for thought.
Cheers,
-David
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 10:45:42 AM
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Gumpi said:
When i read about people's experiences here they seem to have all kinds of wonderful things happen to them and they just don't seem to want to happen to me.
Actually Gumpi, maybe the majority of people don't have any experience that is subjectively significant -- certainly not with any regularity. Don't worry about it. That's not the basis for evaluating your meditation. Is your life any better with it? Are you calmer, freer in some ways? That's the way to evaluate whether it helps, not experiences.
When i finish, which is about 20 mins later, my body feels calmer but my head hurts.
Make sure you drink plenty of water throughout the day. Seriously. Some doctors estimate that a full half of headaches have dehydration as an ultimate cause. If you drink alcohol regularly, that exacerbates the problem of dehydration. For every glass of beer, you should drink two glasses of water. Try that for a few days and see if it helps the headache problem.
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 11:46:34 AM
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C'mon now, David. Don't try to talk him into it! If he's not ready...there'll be no revelations from the efforts that might be made, which only validates what he already believes...i.e. that there's nothing to be gained, and it's all a waste of time. 
When a Seeker is ready...the Truth appears!
Hari OM!
Doc
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 12:31:57 PM
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Doc, respectfully, you have tried but failed to convince me of your points.
I leave the questions i asked open.
Topics are being moved around by moderators and i want to protest against this. It is political correctness, and that is bad. POsts only make logical sense when every reply is posted.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 1:15:24 PM
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Gumpi, if you are talking about this post here, which used to be here, Yogani moved it to where he thought it fit better. Political correctness isn't the reason, you may be sure.
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 1:17:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi:
"Doc, respectfully, you have tried but failed to convince me of your points. I leave the questions i asked open."
Gumpi:
I wasn't trying to convince you of anything! The questions that were asked are totally yours to answer, not anyone else's. Believe what you will, and seek the answers as you see fit to do so.
Good luck!
Doc
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Edited by - Doc on Mar 28 2007 12:02:12 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 1:21:42 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
Contrary to popular belief, siddhis do exist but traditionally they are regarded as obstructions on the path to enlightenment.One reason being that if one uses them they are using personal energy which is required for purification.We all experience meditation results differently and at some time have the same results as you.When we have the thoughts that drive us mad it is regarded as the cleansing times and we don't always expereince deep meditation.I am fortunate that at this moment in time most of my meditations enter samadhi within a few minutes but all have different results.I won't try and convince you of what you should be doing or not, it's all about free will and life is about choices.If you wish to mail me personally for any help I can give you, you may.
L&L
Dave |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Mar 27 2007 : 2:46:00 PM
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Gumpi,
Am I projecting or are you a rather pissed off person? Your posts often seem to have a bone to pick.
I have another question. What has kept you meditating for 6 years? Surely you have a strong motivation. There are countless others who try, get no results and quit. End of problem. Asking only out of curiosity.
As for chakras etc., I have had many many psychic experiences but not one involved auras or chakras. I think charkras are about the endrocrine system and the way they work together to run our complex organisms. But, I have scoffed before only to find out later I was wrong.
Still these things are just whistles and bells and totally irrelevant. The most wonderful thing you can learn is how irrelavant all things, thoughts and stories are. Oh, and the outpouring of divine love, who can scoff at that?
I really hope to find what you are looking for. Do you know what that is?
Much happiness,
Jill |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 05:24:47 AM
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Hi Jill,
Yes i am very pissed off! lol 6 years of fruitless practice i guess.
So David says he think chakras are in the brain. I guess my theory is correct - chakras are hypnotic suggestion. It doesn't matter though - it is a good thing to know the truth. I have also had psychic experiences, Jill, and they don't involve chakras - they are time displacement deja vu premonition things and synchronicities. Furthermore, i would claim that that is the only thing people have psychically.
Where am i going? I'm reminded of religion here; the afterlife is somehow more important than the present life. I just want to enjoy my life now.
I will say that meditation does make me feel relaxed. So it isn't producing nothing per se. Just no plunging inwards, no bliss, no kundalini etc
I think the estatic conductivity Yogani talks about is sensations of cold and warm in the spinal column due to putting the attention there for prolongued periods. It makes sense because most of the nervous system is there. It is a soothing experience and also exciting to feel. It makes one feel like a child again with a natural sense of happiness.
Yeah i do sound like i have a bone to pick. Please excuse me for sounding this way.
David, about the headaches from drinking alcohol - i do not have normal headaches (and i know what "normal" is because i used to have them when i was younger), i have panic induced anxiety symptoms that affect my head area, chiefly the back near the medulla, the top of the head and extending to my eyes. It feels like pin-pricks of irritation and warmness. Instead of affecting my heart and arms etc it has gone to my head for some reason. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 10:16:17 AM
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Good lord, how did you leap from 'the chakras are brain systems' to 'chakras are hypnotic suggestion'? Is your limbic system hypnotic suggestion? Your frontal lobe? There are all sorts of very real 'systems' in your brain, without which you wouldn't be alive.
BTW, the word 'system' is vague, and my idea is vague. The division of the brain into systems is conceptual not absolute. I don't mean physically contiguous system. I'm not proposing that the chakras are specific parts of the brain.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2007 : 11:08:23 AM
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Forgive me if i am wrong, but are you saying that the parts of the brain that control the different parts of the body have chakra locations? If so, you are giving a different interpretation of chakras than most other sources. It really does amount to the same thing as saying, "the chakras are in the brain".
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 09:06:38 AM
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Sorry david, i didnt seem to see your last sentence! Besides that i don't understand some of the terms you have used, so it is a bit confusing.
My position is that i am agnostic about chakras, but it could be argued that this is a position of ignorance. I have experiences i cannot explain but if someone told me they didnt happen or could be explained some other way, i would feel insulted. So i'm open to the possibility of chakras. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 09:12:29 AM
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Meg, thanks for the link. I tend to skip read or speed read things things like this for some reason. It doesn't hold my attention.
I'm very interested in intuitive psychic experiences since i have these occasionally myself. I seem to have reasoned that intuition comes from a "soul" because i lack the understanding to explain those experiences.
But if they happen to me, why can't chakras exist?
I'm changing the way i meditate now. I'm not going to use a mantra. I'm just going to watch my thoughts only. I don't buy into the idea that I AM mantra is special. It could even be a hindrance to samadhi states. |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 12:39:36 PM
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Hi again Gumpi,
I have been thinking about your dilemma a lot and really feel for your frustration. May I ask how long you have been doing AYP? Has it been the whole 6 years or have to changed methods and if so how often?
I myself have been a meditation experimenter for the last 5 years or so, not settling on any definite object for meditation. I have used open awareness, the breath (not much because it never struck me as helpful), metta (Buddhist for loving kindness) awareness of the body, just relaxation, brain wave cds, etc. Unlike you however, AYP has been an over all good experience for me so far. I have not yet repeated my all-out blissful states mentioned previously but have felt a consistent movement toward an opening. I still have to take on faith that it will bare fruit with AYP. Unlike you though, I have had that previous overwhelming contact with something sublime, so I have no doubts about its reality. I wonder what percentage of this or any group gets to that point and if so how long does it take?
Have you read Patanjali's Yoga Sutras? They specifically describe your exact experience in Sutras 1.30 and 1.31. If you are familiar please excuse the redundancy. There are many translations too some giving a better picture than others. Here is one:
Sickness, mental inefficiency , doubt , negligence , idleness, non-abstention --lack of control, erroneous perception , the state of not attaining to any yogic stage (and) unsteadiness Those mental projections (are) the obstacles.
Pain, feeling of wretchedness and miserableness , shakiness or trembling of the body , inhalation (and) exhalation appear or arise together with the (aforesaid) projections.
The link to this translation is: http://www.sanskrit-sanscrito.com.a...ptures2.html
When I read these I feel they say, "Take heart, others have been there done that too. Just keep going" Your heart calls to you to seek that which many have sacrificed all to seek. You gotta give some credence to that, right?
Many good wishes,
Jill
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hopeless meditator
United Kingdom
38 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 1:12:43 PM
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| I read this thread with great interest. I would be interested to know if there is a simple method which - if practiced regularly with good intent - will lead to bliss consciousness. I understand that we are not supposed to seek or cling to blissful states, as they may become a hindrance. However, if we are not currently capable of attaining higher states, is it reasonable to invest hours of time and energy in pursuing them? Sorry if this question is a little garbled, but I found that gumpi's sense of frustration - and admirable honesty in discussing it - impelled me to ask. |
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weaver
832 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 3:00:55 PM
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Hi HM,
My opinion is that one such simple method which - if practiced regularly with good intent - will lead to bliss consciousness, is AYP deep meditation. What we may not be aware of is the time factor, and that it is very individual, and depending on an individual's previous practices. So, you may hear several people here share about deeper experiences and consciousness after practicing AYP maybe 3 years or less. These people likely have previous practices under their belt before they started with AYP. But 3 years is still a very short time when it comes to these matters. It should not be considered unreasonable to look at something like 10 years or more as a time that might be needed for some to find bliss or higher states of consciousness. The spiritual path takes a lot of patience. In many cases a whole lifetime of practice may be considered reasonable to make real headway. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2007 : 11:36:49 PM
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Gumpi,
quote:
I'm changing the way i meditate now. I'm not going to use a mantra. I'm just going to watch my thoughts only.
This is what I've done as well. In fact, it's what I've always done, even during mantra meditation.
But yeah, in some other systems of practice mantra meditation is used to focus and intensify the mind and then a "being aware of the thoughts" meditation is taken on, once the mind is one pointed.
I guess the most important question to ask you, Gumpi, is "what exactly are you seeking here?" What do you wish you'd be seeing with all of your hard work, which isn't there?
If you're up for any suggestion, try this, which is what I've been doing:
Sit without a back rest on a semi soft mat, cross legged, spine straight, chest up and shoulders back, face directly forward, neck in line with spine, eyes relaxed and either partially or fully shut. Stay in that position for a predetermined amount of time (half an hour or whatever you want), and be aware of any sensations (like pain) you feel without moving to alleviate them. Witness the sensations you're feeling as if you were totally seperate from them.
Anyway about why meditation may not be working: in my experience, you have to have the results of meditation in order to get the results. It's kind of weird like that. If you think it's going to relax you, but you go into it all agitated and scattered, it's not going to do any bit of good. But if you go into it in a peaceful, slow and content way, you will see that it's very easy to become immensely relaxed.
It should be the case that after six years, the meditation gets quite intense. Perhaps you want to forget about all of the meditation you've done, and start AYP from the beginning. Relearn it. If you're not seeing results after a while, add some of the more advanced stuff and see what it does.
Anyway, I'd like to once again ask the question: what do you want from meditation? Being clear about that is the key to your satisfaction here. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2007 : 01:13:02 AM
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| I have to agree with Scott as to form. Especially if you are not so clear on teh results I would work on the details of the sitting posture. lying down is too relaxing and the tendency can be to drift into dream states. Focus on perfecting your siddhasana pose and then little by little it will move from working on the posture to a deeper experience but I would start with the form and also take care to practice for the same length of time twice a day every day and not skip a practice |
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