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MatthewC
Japan
13 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 12 2005 : 9:52:35 PM
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Hi,
I am a newbie here so will briefly introduce myself before asking a question.
My name is Matthew and I live in Tokyo. Been here for about 7 years now. I began meditating about three and a half years ago and have tried a few different things, including Holosync, guided meditations, and meditating with music. I stumbled across the AYP site a month or two ago and got the book and have been fascinated with it. It seems to be a much more complete set of spiritual practices than I have experienced before. I plan to take some yoga classes to get some posture basics, and I have begun the spinal breathing and meditation with the 'I am' mantra.
My question has to do with meditating with the mantra. I had never tried this technique before and have found it to be very powerful and pleasant. For a while I was repeating the mantra after the exhalation or inhalation, hence the rate I was repeating it would change as my breath slowed. I was working with an image of the mantra being chimed much like a bell would be, from deep inside me and resonating throughout. The meditations I had like this were wonderful! Smooth, deep and very peaceful.
Then I read in a Q & A (Lesson #106) that the meditation should be leading the breath, not the other way round. Anyway, for a couple of days I have found it difficult to maintain any focus and my breathing seems to be quite erratic during the meditation. Perhaps I am focusing too much on trying to get my breathing smooth and even, but I find it difficult to focus on attaining any rhythm with the mantra. It also seems to become erratic like my breath, like I'm just blurting it out here and there and not letting it do it's job...or maybe it's all just happening the way it's supposed to!!!
Is it normal to experience a sense of ryhthm to the mantra? Does anybody have any ideas or suggestions?
Many thanks,
Matthew |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2005 : 11:08:24 PM
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Hi Matthew, and welcome!
It is good that you are making the separation between mantra and breathing now, as it will enable you to go much deeper.
Whenever we add a new practice or make a change, there will be that "clunky stage" in the beginning. After a while things smooth out. You will find it to be the case with this also. If you just treat the breath like any other thought, emotion or sensation, and easily favor the mantra when you realize you are off it, that will be correct practice and things will smooth out soon enough.
A rhythm with the mantra can be there, but it will change according to whatever is going on in our nervous system. Also, it can be quite clear in pronunciation or very fuzzy and indistinct, or practically nothing at all. We just easily go with it at whatever level it is, not forcing it to go one way or the other. We do not decide the mantra's journey with any exterior bias. If we follow the procedure, the mantra will take us much deeper than any particular enforced rhythm, visualization or following the breath can.
At times there will be little to no breath when using the mantra in this easy way. We will be free of breath, and still going deeper far beyond breath, without even noticing it. Breathing stopping is not intentional (not a goal). It happens by itself without us doing anything with breath. It is the metabolism we are automatically slowing down in deep meditation, and the breath naturally follows.
Breath is a good follower in deep meditation like that. It is not a good leader in meditation. When breath is leading we are doing pranayama, and that has a different purpose than meditation. Pranayama can be very pleasant, ecstatic even, but we do not want to confuse that with meditation. We also do plenty with pranayama in AYP in other parts of our sitting practice. It is an important practice. But meditation and pranayama are separate practices with separate purposes. Pranayama is for cultivating ecstatic conductivity in the nervous system. It also paves the way, preparing the ground for deep meditation which goes much deeper, cultivating our inner silence. So there are two purposes which have profound long term results if developed in that way. That is why Patanjali has these two elements as separate limbs in the eight limbs of yoga.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Ute
39 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2005 : 3:51:44 PM
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Matthew,
I tried a suggestion "Jim and his Karma" made recently. He said to listen to the mantra, rather than saying/thinking it. I found this very powerful. The mantra thus sets it's own pace, is disconnected from the breath, and goes through the clear/ fuzzy/ almost gone phases just like Yogani describes.
Ute |
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MatthewC
Japan
13 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2005 : 6:53:32 PM
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Thank you Yogani and Ute for taking the time to respond. Things are much clearer now. This is a new way of doing things for me so I'm definitely a little clumsy at the moment! Really looking forward to continuing with this though. Thank you both once again.
Matthew |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2005 : 3:08:52 PM
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Hi Matthew and Ute:
The listening is okay if there is something stirring in the mantra department. However, if nothing is stirring, the procedure is to easily pick it up. Deep meditation with mantra is proactive, while passive listening and waiting for something to emerge is a different practice. The latter is a common meditation technique used in some of the traditions, particularly with OM -- listening, waiting for it to come. In our AYP deep meditation sessions we do not wait.
As it has been said, "If the mountain will not come to Mohammed, then Mohammed will go to the mountain."
The guru is in you.
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MatthewC
Japan
13 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2005 : 7:17:33 PM
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Hi again Yogani and Ute,
I did my morning meditation again this morning and it was much, much better than it had been for the few days up until I posted. I was able to allow my breathing and the mantra to be separate from each other, with the mantra being the focus for much most of the 20 minutes. The listening and waiting bit I think I understand the subtleties of what you are both saying - yes, I was listening to the mantra but I still had to pick it up and guide it out, so to speak. And it did mutate throughout the session into something I can only describe as being like an endless streamer floating by in the wind. It seemed to just be flowing through me, each 'I am' connected to the other. It was nice as I didn't have to force it to come. As you have described in many of the lessons here, it was just a gentle favouring of the mantra.
Once again, thanks to both of you for taking the time to respond. Yogani, I have only been using the techniques and the your website for a short time but it's a wonderful resource. I am grateful for being able to ask questions and get clear answers from people who know so much more than I do.
Matthew |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2005 : 08:22:16 AM
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Hi Matthew:
The next thing to let go of is the analysis of what the mantra is doing during meditation. When you find yourself thinking in meditation, "Oh, the mantra is doing this or that," just treat it like any other thought and easily go back to the mantra at whatever level it is comfortable.
You will be an expert at this in no time. Less is more. 
The guru is in you.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2005 : 10:16:30 AM
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Hi all,
My experience may be related here: sometimes I found that when I was thinking about the mantra, I have very tiny(barely noticeble) muscular contraction which I don't know where it is. I can only feel a difference physically. My mouth, throat, etc, all remain as relax as I could. But still some part of me (probably near my mouth) contract a bit as if I am to speak out the mantra and pull it back only in the last moment. I think this is not desirable. Try listening to it seems to help, especially when I think about someone else's voice instead of my own.
Besides listening in stead of mentally saying it, are there other ways to get rid of the subtle muscular contraction? What about the others' experiences? |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2005 : 10:37:15 AM
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Hi Alvin:
We treat physical sensations, including muscular movements that might happen with mantra, the same as thoughts and feelings, and just easily come back to the mantra. The more we "work" on these other things coming to our attention, the more of an impediment they become, and we will be off the practice. The idea is to develop the habit of easily favoring the mantra over everything that comes up in body, mind or feelings. There is nothing to work on or solve. We just go with the procedure. Very simple...
Except, of course, unless someone yells, "Fire!" Then we do whatever is necessary to save life and limb.
The guru is in you.
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2005 : 1:21:02 PM
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I have been concentrating on "pronouncing" (silently) I AM
with the true 'flat' A. When I focus on the actual pronounciation
of the 'A,' the mantra seems to merge with another ongoing sound
that I describe as around the notes 'g' and 'a' three octaves above
middle 'C'. Technically known as 'tinnitus,' this sound increases
for me during meditation. Someone recently mentioned that in his practice
it increases during the headstand. I also remember back in 'head
stand' days that was true for me as well. But thinking the 'AM'
with the correct 'A' - if sounded aloud you have to smile to say
it - is quite interesting. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 17 2005 : 2:44:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
But still some part of me (probably near my mouth) contract a bit as if I am to speak out the mantra and pull it back only in the last moment. I think this is not desirable. Try listening to it seems to help, especially when I think about someone else's voice instead of my own.
Besides listening in stead of mentally saying it, are there other ways to get rid of the subtle muscular contraction? What about the others' experiences?
Alvin,
I think this is called 'subvocalization', and it can happen when people read also and slow them down. It used to affect me too.
It would disappear in time. Anything you take onboard during meditation to get rid of it will be controversial, but there is something you can do outside meditation that can help and will not be controversal -- it won't possibly mess up the meditation.
Here it is and it helped me: eliminate subvocalization while you read. While you are reading, imagine someone else saying it. Imagine this person is saying to you what you are reading on the page. You can choose an actual person or just use some vague 'person'. The subvocalization will drop off and you may find that you are able to read faster!! Get used to reading this way always. When you have gotten rid of it in reading, you will have gotten used to 'initiating' sounds internally without subvocalizing them and it will disappear more quickly with your meditation.
You can make sure you are doing this reading thing properly by doing drills with yourself, where you pay very close attention to your vocal apparatus and read some stuff (internally) at different speeds.
Try it!
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 17 2005 2:49:43 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2005 : 01:00:03 AM
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Thanks, Yogani, I'll be more careful in how I suggest the listening trick. It's not my intent to encourage people to listen...and listen...and listen...for the perfect essence of mantra. I'm not a nada yogi! I'm just suggesting listening as an alternative impetus for launching the first iteration of mantra. Sort of like swirling your wine before you sip...nothing more.
Those who get nothing immediate need to get mantra cranking, period, if they intend to practice AYP. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Dec 18 2005 01:01:02 AM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2005 : 10:59:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rabar
I have been concentrating on "pronouncing" (silently) I AM
with the true 'flat' A. When I focus on the actual pronunciation
of the 'A,' the mantra seems to merge with another ongoing sound
that I describe as around the notes 'g' and 'a' three octaves above
middle 'C'. Technically known as 'tinnitus,' this sound increases
for me during meditation. Someone recently mentioned that in his practice it increases during the headstand. I also remember back in 'head stand' days that was true for me as well. But thinking the 'AM' with the correct 'A' - if sounded aloud you have to smile to say it - is quite interesting.
Hi Rabar:
While all of these experiments sound interesting, I hope you are not doing them during your regular deep meditation sessions. It is so much simpler than that. In fact, the success of the practice depends on maintaining the simplicity of the procedure. Correct practice involves no analysis whatsoever, and no concentration. We are just easily picking up the mantra when we realize we are off with our attention into anything else. Anything else. And the pronunciation is as simple as how they say "I AM" on the English-speaking evening news. Spell it "AYAM" if you like -- this removes the meaning, which is not part of deep meditation. There is wiggle room on pronunciation, as has been discussed in detail in this topic: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=529
It is not necessary to peg the pronunciation or frequency of the sound, or anything like that. It is going to be changing during deep meditation anyway, according to purification going on in the nervous system. We let it change however it will. We just begin, and then follow the procedure for coming back to the mantra at whatever level we find ourselves inside when we realize we are not on it. That is all there is to it ... all the rest we are inclined to put into the process is baggage that will only hamper our natural merging with pure bliss consciousness -- our inner silence.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Dec 18 2005 : 2:12:20 PM
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Well said Yogani.Simplicity is the key and goes along with my simple mind.LOL
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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rabar
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2005 : 1:17:13 PM
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Yogani writes:
"all the rest we are inclined to put into the process is baggage that will only hamper our natural merging with pure bliss consciousness -- our inner silence"
Well said. The old acronym K.I.S.S. comes to mind...
(But I do like smiling with my brain :-) |
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Guy_51
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2005 : 09:55:57 AM
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| Greetings, Today was my first day of practicing the I Am mantra,and I actually sat for 26 mins.Do you think I on the inhale and Am on the exhale? Also should I keep reminding myself throughout the day of the I Am mantra or just at formal sittings? Thanks for your time and this wonderful resorce.Warmest Regards Guy Dawson |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2005 : 1:38:40 PM
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Welcome Robert!
We do not deliberately synchronize mantra and breath. And we only sit to meditate twice per day for 20 minutes. Below is a section from the new book, Deep Meditation, on breath in AYP deep meditation. You can find useful information in this small book on the key aspects of beginning and maintaining your meditation practice.
Note: See also my posting of Dec 12th in this topic on mantra and breath.
The guru is in you.
-------------------------
From the Deep Meditation book:
Breath Slowing Down
When our mind settles down during deep meditation, the body naturally goes with it. This can be measured directly in a variety of our biological functions. One of these is the breath, which is tied to our rate of metabolism. So, mind slows down, energy consumption in the body slows down, metabolism in our cells slows down, and breath slows down.
In fact, sometimes, breath can practically stop during our deep meditation. This is nothing to worry about. It means that our body is going to profound levels of quietness during meditation, and this is the catalyst for deep purification within our nervous system. So, the breath slowing down in deep meditation is a precursor of purification in the nervous system, a natural manifestation of the presence of inner silence.
It is very revealing that the breath slows down automatically as the mind goes to stillness. It is direct proof of the intimate mind/body connection that exists in us. We don’t need a laboratory experiment to verify this. All we have to do is sit and meditate, and we will see for ourselves soon enough.
We do not make an effort to slow the breath while we are meditating. Neither do we deliberately synchronize the mantra with the breath. If it happens inadvertently, it is okay, but we do not favor it. We just leave the breath to do naturally what it will in deep meditation.
This is how we will achieve the best results. Deep meditation is just a simple procedure of easily favoring the mantra, no matter what else may come to our attention – breath, thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, and so on. In our practice of deep meditation, less will be more and more will be less. While other systems of practice may use the breath as an object of attention, we do not in deep meditation.
It is by following the procedure of deep meditation that the process of purification will be conducted automatically in our nervous system. Sometimes the mind will go very still, and usually the breath along with it. Other times we will be filled with thoughts and sensations inside, and the breath will be normal. It is even possible for the breath to speed up for short periods if the body is undergoing strong purification. But the more common experience will be a slowing down of the breath. It is normal, and part of the beneficial effects of deep meditation.
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snake
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2006 : 5:20:59 PM
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| Sorry if I missed this but why AYAM as a way of thinking IAM rather than IYAM ?Wouldnt the A at the start sound like A in BAY rather than Ias in EYE? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2006 : 6:03:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by snake
Sorry if I missed this but why AYAM as a way of thinking IAM rather than IYAM ?Wouldnt the A at the start sound like A in BAY rather than Ias in EYE?
Hello Snake,
there are ambiguities of english spelling causing this confusion, no more.
AYAM is just a way of spelling IAM. It just emphasizes that the 'I' sound is a 'diphtong', a sound with two parts. 'I' in English, as in 'I am', is actually the two sounds aaaaaa-eeeee in order, but sped up. And aaaaa--eeeee--aaaaa, all sped up can be spelled 'AYA' in English.
Nothing more than that.
Curse Chancery English, and the invention of the printing press before the spelling became sensible!!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Jan 24 2006 6:05:17 PM |
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snake
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2006 : 03:31:57 AM
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| Thnakyou David |
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snake
United Kingdom
265 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2006 : 10:50:57 AM
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It seems that deep meditation as taught in AYP is practiced along the same lines as TM(I havent practiced TM just going on what ive read on the internet).
So did the Maharishi get it about right in his way of teaching then?
thanks
Chris |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2006 : 11:05:26 AM
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Yes Chris. Maharishi's organization did teach meditation very well.
They charged a lot, and told a few major porkies to justify the high fees, but they did teach the technique of meditation very well.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2006 : 12:20:08 PM
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Hi Snake,
Yes the Maharishi taught the art of mantra meditation correctly but it was not unique to him or even devised by him. This method has been used for thousands of years.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2006 : 9:55:55 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~~~
Hello David/Rip ( for short) and Snake ( et.al)
If I recall, I don't believe anyone [on AYP list] has suggested that Maharshi claimed ownership to the approach he has taught. What I have read and listened to is MMY has always given credit to the tradition of Masters going back Vayasa, Gaudapadha, Hastamalaka, and even to Narayana, let alone his teacher who was the Shankaracharaya of Jyotir Math.
My point is not one of contention, just a thought you may wish to consider. I also can undersand the angst behind the $$$$ of cost.
Capitalism, go figure?
Peace,
Frank In San Diego
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Edited by - Frank-in-SanDiego on Feb 01 2006 10:54:47 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2006 : 09:42:31 AM
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Frank, yes, it's true that he did not claim to invent it. Regarding 'ownership', well, he did get into a rather gray area of cultivating the notion that only his group could teach it. At least, that is what I saw in the teachers I saw, and he does maintain very strong control over what the teachers say.
By the way, the teachers who taught me told me that Maharishi was told by his own teacher, the Shankaracharya, to go forth and teach TM. This is false. Another big porkie.
Maharishi's guru was an orthodox believer in caste. Maharishi is not a Brahmin -- and in the Shankaracharya's view, he therefore should not be a spiritual teacher, end of story.
Fair play though to Maharishi for breaking away from these caste-restrictions.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 02 2006 11:44:53 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2006 : 11:28:30 AM
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Dear Frank,
Yes , he does not claim to have devised this method and I acknowledge his contribution to the spread of spirituality.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Meditating with the 'I am' mantra
