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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 12:36:35 AM
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Hi there Folks,
I wasn't sure exactly where to post a thread on lucid dreaming and meditation, therein. But hand-in-hand with my journey of meditation, has been the practice of harnessing conscious-awareness, while dreaming. Easier said than done... but practice and intent makes this adjustment a wee bit better and letting go, so allowing the shift to happen naturally, and this has opened new vistas for the I-thought to witness. 
Now, without actually rationalizing oneself into a wakeful state, there is this wonderful point of actually realizing that you are dreaming and without thinking too much about knowing so, to remain in a sleep state... but move freely within the vast potentiality of the dreamscape.
It's taken almost 40 years to have any breakthroughs... but I am beginning to experience the flexibility of mind, to direct the flow of events within the dream sequences. As this could easily be a waste of the internal witness's frequency of awareness, for obvious reasons, there is also a chance to maximize the lucid dram mind-set and thus, steer it towards one's spiritual attention. I have been doing some serious meditation lately, when I am asleep and am dreaming. 
I find that it facilitates a thought-free state of mind, almost effortlessly so. I am dreaming that I am instantly awakening into a state of Savikalpa Samadhi. Despite the reality of dreaming... it is very "real" to my attention.
It's something new for me and is even better than my childhood dreams of flying or visiting places heretofore inaccessible, while going from dreamscape to dreamscape. Now the dream realm is an open invitation to practice Sadhana, even amidst the flow of dream sequences (much as we all do routinely, during our waking time), for as human beings, we grow incrementally and appear to spiritually evolve.
Have any of your folks had similar experiences whilst dreaming? If so, please feel free to share something of your journey and exchange your dreaming experiences.
Hari Om Tat Sat  |
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Indigo
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2013 : 8:49:37 PM
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| Very interesting Topic. I have had some lucid dreams in the past where I was aware that I was dreaming. It was like waking up while in the dream and I let the other people in the dream know that I was sound asleep in my bed and the events unfolding were only parts of the dream. I had some control over the dream but not total control. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2013 : 11:32:32 PM
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Interesting experience, or rather state of being, whichever is more accurate.
Significant dreaming experiences of mine are quite numerous, both lucid and not. I'm still not very good at inducing it directly, but have been actively working on it a lot more lately since learning the skill is immensely rewarding, has a definite impact on oneself in so many ways, and is otherwise a special state full of potential.
The first one ever was quite high level, mnemonically-induced, and resulted in a bit of panic due to the cognitive dissonance of believing it is real yet knowing the reality check failed.
A few lucid experiences later, the one that stayed with me is as you describe, like a state of realization that everything, the entire dream scape, is a reflection of you alone. Never before could I have imagined how profound it is. Yet there you are, facing a vast open scene of the backyard in the serenity of night, trying to reconcile the juxtaposition of what is so real and objective yet entirely a part of yourself you've never met before. Dream samadhi must be like a preview of waking samadhi, and since the veil between such states of consciousness becomes thinner with every experience, the prospect of transposing elements among the two, and into deep sleep, is plausible.
Frederick Aardema puts forth a great working theory, that conscious awareness is essentially non-local, and its intersection with the EM fields of the body simply hold it phase-shifted in this present experience. This gives some support to the theory, coming from channeled teachings of higher beings, that the waking experience at this level on Earth is very much an altered state quite removed from something much more natural. The lucid dream, projection, phasing, trance, whatever word is used to associate the state to, when studied from the writings of others and personal experiences, it becomes evident that it carries its own lore, commonalities and dynamics that many stumble upon, discover, or intuit through 'percepts.' I can testify to the difference between 'parasomatic and asomatic transitions,' and the depth and logical elegance of cryptic language as it manifests in memory interpretations of dreams. I've seen it go as far as creating inversions, where you issue comments about self-evident observations only to later realize these were the answers to your own inquiry. You are forced to create new terminology to keep track of new discoveries, such as quasi or meta lucid dreams where you enter a lucid dream from within a non-lucid dream's false awakening, really bending the mind's ability to keep track of who you are and where you come from, changing your previous convictions and perceptions about what it means to 'think' yourself as grounded in this life and under such circumstances (again, highlighting the altered state theory mentioned earlier).
There are definite connections between these states, and higher densities, given the many parallels. Aardema, Bruce, Monroe, Moen, McKnight, Peterson, Buhlman, Raduga, LaBerge, Moss all hint at it. I've also opened discussion on this earlier as a subtle mention under contactee initiation, since at this point it's already out in the open, with others taking the lead if only still retracing the steps of those as far back as 50-60 years ago who have already written about it openly. Indeed there's connections between everything. Seeing a little by direct feedback anywhere automatically revels more of the greater picture. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2013 : 11:45:55 PM
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Dear Govinda,
Hari Om. Yes, I've experienced a similar evolution in my lucid dreaming. When I was young I used it to fly and stuff. In more recent years my lucid dreams have had just one purpose: To hang out with the Lord. A particularly vivid and multidimensional lucid dream-within-a-dream happened back in March, triggered by meditating on one of Shanti's beautiful paintings. The description is here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=12707
and another one here, which involves a dream-within-a-dream:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10929
Our lucid dreams are wonderful opportunities, indeed!
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 12:35:13 PM
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Thank you for sharing, all..
Govinda and Aum, are there specific techniques you both use to induce lucid dreaming or has this just been a natural evolution of meditative practices? I often have vivid lucid dreams, that began happening spontaneously after a year or two of DM. In the past year, they turned into past-life regression (of two or three separate lifetimes) on a few occasions. I have used the Tibetan sleep yoga techniques (and still do, quite frequently) but it is not a practice I follow rigorously - simply visualizing a bright white "A" or bindu at the third eye in the state between being awake and falling asleep..
Aum, I love this:"I've seen it go as far as creating inversions, where you issue comments about self-evident observations only to later realize these were the answers to your own inquiry. You are forced to create new terminology to keep track of new discoveries, such as quasi or meta lucid dreams where you enter a lucid dream from within a non-lucid dream's false awakening, really bending the mind's ability to keep track of who you are and where you come from, changing your previous convictions and perceptions about what it means to 'think' yourself as grounded in this life and under such circumstances (again, highlighting the altered state theory mentioned earlier)." So beautiful and so profound. Thank you.
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Roberto
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 8:51:40 PM
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Boy This Lucid Dreaming Sounds Cool.
Could you guys (Kami, Govinda) show me how to do it ?
Thank You
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Roberto
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 9:19:27 PM
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Hi Govinda and Aum/Kami, are there specific techniques you guys use to induce lucid dreaming or has this just been a natural evolution of meditative practices?
Many thanks !!! |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 11:06:32 PM
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Brother Roberto,
As you know well, my dear friend, there is no technique or method... other than practicing direct attention and gradually developing the capacity to recognize one is CONSCIOUS in a lucid dream state, and to not get so exited as to think rationally and therefore, cause one's mind to trigger logical thought process. Hence, this always seems to cause one to wake up from the lucid dream state.
Incrementally, as you have experienced innumerable times, Don Roberto, the shift from passive dreaming to active dreaming is mastered in small, yet, significant steps. In my own case, I find that meditation while dreaming helps me to understand the nature of the human mind and lend assistance to my "waking" meditations. To say nothing of the very REAL experiences of meeting advanced spiritual beings and highly evolved sages.
Anyone curious can reference Autobiography Of A Yogi for the details about the Darshan Sri Lahiri Mahasaya used to gift to his disciples, often in their dreams. Or were they really just dreams? Hardly, as he discussed them with each Chela, in turn. I myself, have had dreaming Darshan from master souls, as had our esteemed brother Roberto.
Anyone familiar with the writings of Carlos Castaneda, is likely well-versed in the whole lucid dreaming process. I began my efforts in 1977 and it has taken decades to actually work freely within the dream space. and I must say, while it is a non-physical reality, it so clearly shows the symbiotic relationship between intent and actualization. After all, is this material waking state not also a dreamscape? It is, for sure. So, I sincerely feel that much of our personal Sadhana is done in the unawakened states of mortal being.
Therefore, mastering the lucid state is key to learning about the enigmatic nature of self and reality. In my own experiences, the sound current is acutely accessible by listening attentively (much as in the waking realm).
From my own small experiences, I believe that meditation in lucid dream states is highly advantageous for any seeker of spiritual truth. Why not utilize one's "unconscious" existence towards one's attunement to the Divine Being? Symbiotically, this parallels our waking Sadhana and is a definitive boost to our internal growth.
Waking, sleeping, dreaming... awakening to the living presence of the Sacred Spirit. It's all the same journey, all the same dynamic shift in one's degree of awareness. Like Sakyamuni said, "As you think, so you become". I would emphatically add, "As you lucidly dream, so you awaken within a dreamscape, only to find yourself within, yet another, dreamscape." May we all bring our focus to a single point and activate a far greater degree of clarity, courage, receptivity and sheer blissfulness.
Hari Om Tat Sat
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2013 : 11:30:20 AM
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Good morning All,
Last night I experienced numerous lucid dreams and that's nothing unusual, at all. But before I went to sleep I kind of programed my mindset to zero-in on this specific paradigm, the realm of lucid awakenings and whatnot. The very last dream sequence before waking up to the material sphere, was truly fascinating. Not perplexing or shrouded in hard to decipher meanings, due to complex symbolism. And incidentally, it included many of you fine folks in this discussion. 
We were all together in a small square room with no windows. Everything was white, even the floor. It seemed to be a classroom of some sort or other? As with all dream sequences, there were dreamy aspects, fuzzy and undefined, as well as highly acute aspects, clearly defined in vivid detail. Anyhooo... we were sitting on the floor on white cushions, in a perfect circle. We were having this exact discussion, more or less.
For whatever reason, perhaps unabashed egotism, I had taken it upon myself to describe how one directly segues into Savikapla Samadhi from the lucid dream state. Let's just say that my dreaming ego-self felt inspired or compelled to share a few practical tips on how this has been achieved within my own human self-containment, Mego the ego's higher self (Jivatman seeking Paramatman).
As with all dreamscapes, the witness can either experience being the self dreaming... or the objective observer to the scenario unfolding. This was both, really. I was experiencing both, wihn this lucid dreamscape. Occasionally, the witness observed the person, Govinda or Jon, trying to explain in human words, some of the key aspects of the lucid awakening. Other times, the sense of self was so palpable that I was in my dream body, me-myself and I, relating to all of your collectivity of your dream bodies.
So, as I was encapsulating a kind of methodological approach to initiating the lucid experience in dreams... I became aware that I was actually dreaming. One of the tricks I was specifically describing, at that moment, was not letting the mind shake one out of the lucid state, so as to cause one to awaken from the potential, experiential shift in one's lucid awareness. So, I let the Megotist continue on, within the seemingly welcomed sermon.
I will now relate the words in this thread (itself, yet another dream sequence): "It's all about belief, really. When we ALLOW ourselves to believe we can and will awaken, we do. But there is a learning curve and it is of primary importance to place the notion of awakening within a dream, into one's mind, immediately prior to falling asleep. It's called, direct intent.
Furthermore, it is the cessation of doubt and overt rationalization, which facilitates the shift and the limitless potentiality. It's not necessarily a technique or a method... for there are none. It's as simple as opening a door and stepping through it, thus, allowing oneself to experience anything one wishes, which includes the transmutation from human thought to the pure experience of Divine Being."
Instantly, the witness observing the lecture which Mego extolled, began to laugh. I knew that I was dreaming or discussing dreaming, within a dream, had by a mortal persona dreaming of being something other than Spirit wholly unbound and without definitive substation. this apparently comical notion was followed by my resolve to merge into the Supreme frequency of the Godhead. As is so often the case, the images in the dreamscape (scenery of you will,) morph and transform immediately into something else, altogether different in subject or content.
Thus, I became aware that the room was my mind, the characters within it were thoughts and there was no lasting identity to any of the beings seated in a precise circular manner. At that moment, the room disappeared entirely, the Megotist and the other selves subject to it's lecturing, also dissolved and nothing was left perceivable but an expanse of the open cosmos. There were immense spiraling galaxies and star-filled clouds of nebulae. I felt a great love throughout the expanse of the universal flow. All of this manifestation emerges out of Divine love. It was euphoric and truly wonderful!
Despite the sheer beauty, the witness within the observation of the dream sequence, became clearly dissatisfied with material space travel, regardless of it's intense beauty. Whatever self was seated deep inside of the watcher of this dream, refused to experience anything short of the state of Samadhi.
I recall the intention arise to shift exponentially, to release all form or identification with any non-dual level of being. The mind stopped dead in its tracks. In thoughtless silence... there was no-thing to experience. Yet, a fullness and euphoria resided within a vortex sweetness that is impossible to transfer into human linguistics. The inner light was so blinding it washed away all lines of demarcation. The AUM Sound Current was rumbling and ringing, scintillating and buzzing vibrationally... the roaring silence! All was pulsating light and sonic oscillation.
Who was hearing this Sacred frequency in tonality? Whose bliss was this? Who was having the experience of the self dissolving into sheer emptiness? Why was there a residual witnessing self, remaining to subjectively quantify any idea or impression at all about the shift? Yes Jivatman was merging within Paramatman and the two cannot exist simultaneously... for there is only ONE. And then it, the Omniself, stopped it's habitual observations of the grand unity.
Now... in this void, came the direct eclipsing. A total whiteout experience replaced the ecstasy experienced by the higher self. It removed the membranes of this and that, subject and object, myself and anything other than myself. Nothing can be said of this state nor should anyone expect anything to be said of it. We are That! Knowing it and being it are two alternate levels of experience.
As with any spiritual experience, there can only be quantification before and immediately after the whiteout immersion, the eclipsing of Jivatman and Paramatman. Only as I currently type these letters into human words, and so, attempt to convey something of this dreamscape, is there any meaning to any of it. In the state... there is no self to be separated from anything else. Yeah, there is no thingness to observe nor any witness to experience the observation. I believe this is what Gautama Buddha was pointing towards, with his concept of Anatman.
I can say this, pre-immersion and post-immersion, there was a sense of a joyous perception of Nirvana. The bliss-response was so intense, cosmic tears spilled from the corner of the eyes. These tears had soaked into my pillow, and upon awakening to this frequency of the psychical self, I noticed the dampness on my face and and was blown-away by the interrelationship of the dreaming Samadhi and the material body which routinely contains the witnessing self or I-thought.
And I am certain that I have likewise, awakened into yet another dreamscape, just one which is appearing as more concrete and quantifiably defined by causality and the parameters of the time-space-continuum. I immediately sat up and re-entered the meditative state... and I honestly cannot decide which reality is actually more real and which mirrored refection is an illusion. I suspect that it's neither and/or both.
Existence is most paradoxical at best and a challenge for the awakening self to navigate within. May all of your journeys be filled with spiritual enrapturement and the crystallization of wisdom! Ain't life grand?
Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti |
Edited by - Govinda on Nov 06 2013 11:53:11 AM |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2013 : 1:26:13 PM
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I wish it were a natural evolution of meditative practices, but so far this has not been the case here. I do see it as ideal to be arising as a result of inner purification and deepening of the witness state, as it is evident from the incredible experiences shared so far. But I also wonder whether deliberate efforts, and its associated sleep disruption and deprivation, are still valuable as long as kept in check.
The dream state, from observation, is influenced a great deal by self-conditioning, where ongoing experiences at that state of consciousness act as a stimulus, either towards more lucidity and valuable active participation, or towards passivity and incoherent mental 'digestion' and memory consolidation. Introducing greater levels of conscious awareness, especially with techniques, would therefore automatically begin restoring the balance currently so dominated by the latter condition.
A sadhana would provide the inner potential, while a technique would contribute to and actualize it. The one I've had the most success with has been the wake back to bed method combined with a few methods of inducing it directly, such as Monroe's energy breathing, Bruce's mobile body awareness, tense and relax, visualizing anything at point away from body awareness, and counting. I think what matters more than anything is knowing your own body's tendencies, and choosing, combining, or creating something that takes care of the basic ingredients of body deeply asleep and mind primed or awake and coherent. Aardema highlights the basics better than anyone I've come across, though I haven't considered those of Raduga's or the many others out there. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2013 : 11:10:48 PM
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Dear Govinda,
that is so beautiful, thanks for sharing!
You said,
And I am certain that I have likewise, awakened into yet another dreamscape, just one which is appearing as more concrete and quantifiably defined by causality and the parameters of the time-space-continuum. I immediately sat up and re-entered the meditative state... and I honestly cannot decide which reality is actually more real and which mirrored refection is an illusion. I suspect that it's neither and/or both.
That was my experience, also, after the dream described in the link above, which was inspired by Shanti's Krishna painting.
BTW, FWIW, in my youth I employed the Castaneda "hands" technique: Before going to sleep I would meditate and then looking at my hands, say, "Tonight when I dream, I will look at my hands and know that I am dreaming." It may seem silly but it worked. After a while it became unnecessary. I don't think it's anything particularly about the hands; probably any simple "cue" would work.
thanks again for starting this wonderful thread! hope to see you in your next group dream. I've had several dreams (both lucid and non) involving AYP members.
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2013 : 11:46:51 PM
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Dear AumNaturel,
One would not expect "associated sleep disruption and deprivation" from lucid dreaming per se since lucid dreams, like "normal" dreams, occur during REM sleep, which is very restful for the body.
The only problem would be if you managed to somehow disrupt the natural sleep stages themselves so that your REM stage takes up TOO much of your sleep time, thereby depriving the other stages. This is a fairly rare condition. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2013 : 09:16:20 AM
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That is what I was anticipating as well. Once the self-conditioning within the dream state is altered to restore a balance of lucidity, it should not become a drain in any way. Lucid dreams and ordinary ones can seamlessly blend into one another. Plus, the notion of time is altered, so that one minute in REM can encompass a much longer period of time than in the waking state.
I've always had a hard time allowing the body to fall deeply enough asleep to allow for separation/sensory detachment. Likewise my dreams sometimes are very much at the superficial level of thinking. One of the remedies is to get to bed as early as possible. The only theory I have so far comes from a Taoist energy chart stating that an energy potential moves along the microcosmic orbit/small circulation which is synchronized to the Sun or a number of natural and cosmic influences at any given geographical region, and perhaps also a shared connection with other people's sleep cycle to whom you resonate. Only the absence of such cues could allow for a desynchronization, such as in sleep experiments isolating the person from the outside, at the Earth's poles, or in orbit. Whatever the case if such theory is correct and relevant, it would allow for more subtle energy into the body if asleep at that time, and set up favorable circumstances for the body and mind well within its ordinary sleep cycle that if taken advantage of makes it much easier to go deeper.
The looking at your hand or counting fingers check is a good one, since it's an easy fixed and intuitive reference point. Anything outside of that, such as digital clocks, writing, or light switches I have not found as reliable. I've had so many missed opportunities as a result of the 'light switch' check that I would say it should have never been regarded as a reality check to begin with. Digital clocks too can be steady when looking away and then back, or the actual number change could be missed. Another thing that has held me back was the notion of "it is imperative to not move in the slightest." I always abandoned attempts after 2 or even 3 hours of laying still since I would have to move to my side to get more sleep, and that's when a lot of lucid dreams occurred.
If there's one principle, it would be to listen to yourself, the way your own body works, and conduct your own experiments and observations rather than accept theories at face value that could in the end be detrimental to your trance practices. Both Aardema and Raduga highlight that it is not absolutely necessary to remain perfectly still, and on the contrary, it can be very helpful to move to get your body more comfortable so that it can actually reach deeper levels of sleep. It all varies on the person, the situation, the method. |
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Samadhi while lucid dreaming
