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 Yamas & Niyamas - Restraints & Observances
 Fasting Part 2...
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 14 2006 :  7:45:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
NagoyaSea,

I'd imagine everyone's experience of energy flowing is different, but whatever your experience of it is, I'd bet that some form of fasting or calorie restriction would increase the magnitude of this experience noticeably.

-Yoda
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NagoyaSea

424 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2006 :  12:26:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yoda, thank you. It was the process of dying that brought the experience to me-- an anaphylactic shock to be precise. Obviously I survived. In stillness the energy is present through my entire body. There isn't a need to increase the magnitude. It is ever with me.

Kathy
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2006 :  1:20:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
That QOD forum above is a great resource and the Doctor will answer your questions directly.

Something to keep in mind about making any sort of dietary change is that it has to be slow and gradual. I was reading Walford's "Beyond the 120 year diet" and he said that when researchers change adult rats from an 'all you can eat' diet to a restricted diet suddenly, those rats don't live very long. But if the change is made gradually, then these rats gain the longevity benefits.

The best transition time for rats, if extended directly to humans would be 4-6 years. But Walford believes that a one year transition time is sufficient.
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2006 :  5:27:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Kathy,

Awesome!! That was your 108th post too!

-Yoda
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 15 2006 :  5:29:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
V8 *is* actually superior to tomato juice.
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2006 :  09:32:27 AM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
While Dr. Fuhrman disses juice fasting in his "Fasting and Eating for Health" (says juice fasting keeps you out of ketosis which protects the body from using muscle tissue for energy) He might have a point, but I have plenty of muscle and juice fasting is 300% easier than water fasting in my preliminary experience. Also, I find that I'm not actually taking in many calories from juice (just to take the edge off sometimes), so I'd imagine that some level of ketosis is still taking place. I should get some of those ketostrips to check into that. But even if he's right, juice fasting is the only way that I can work and exercise with no sort of energy crashes, headaches, etc.
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2006 :  10:09:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Grape-fasting, and juice-fasting with enough high-calorie juice, will certainly keep you out of ketosis; there are a significant number of calories in grapes, for example.

But to keep it in perspective, ketosis is not the aim of all fasts.
Just as anaerobic respiration is not the aim of all running; without sprinting you won't go into anaerobic respiration.

I'm finding significant purification, clarity of mind, energy and strong meditations coming from my non-ketosis grape-fast, and it is free of all side-effects.

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nearoanoke

USA
525 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2006 :  10:56:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Yoda,

From what I know, even a packet of tomato ketchup will get you out of ketosis. Ketosis is absolutely no carbs. Grape juice should help you keep out of ketosis.

-Near
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2006 :  5:10:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
So, an update on my grape-fast: I started my grape fast last Monday; on Friday, I had someone's birthday to celebrate. I decided to break my grape fast that evening, and try to renew it next morning.

It worked -- no problem! I didn't really find that the cravings had come back full force or anything.

Another thing is that I had no difficulty eating a small meal on Friday. Breaking the grape fast did not seem to need to be so gradual. It seems in my case anyway that the regular grapes kept the digestive system ready for some food. I expect that if I had eaten a large amount of food there might have been trouble, but with a small meal, there was no problem.

A curious thing about grapes -- they have a well-known mild laxative effect when eaten with other stuff, but not really when eaten alone. At least that is my experience on this grape fast. I don't have to endure frequent trips to the outhouse, which was something I was afraid might happen. Can other people confirm this?

I'm now taking the fast one day at a time. It's still going very nicely.

I might eat on the weekend and re-start the fast next week.... This might be a sustainable, permanent eating pattern.... well, it's early days yet, but it has crossed my mind.




Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 17 2006 5:11:57 PM
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Manipura

USA
870 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2006 :  5:42:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Manipura's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
David - It seems to me that a permanent grape-fast like you suggest would screw up your digestive system. Five days of grapes seems sort of extreme, in terms of the acidic content, and the havoc that might wreak on your system. Not for a week, but as a permanent diet. You're not worried about this? Do you know something on this that I don't, in terms of the benefits? I'm interested in giving it a week's try, but am concerned about the excess sugar/acid, and lack of protein. Also, I have a fairly rigorous exercise routine, and am wondering if I'd have the energy to keep it up. Any thoughts?
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2006 :  5:48:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Good point re: ketosis as not the be all and end all of fasting.

I tried the "master cleanser" lemonade diet and my teeth just can't handle the acidity. I think I'll hang out in v8/tjuice land for a bit. I'm on day 4 of the "misc juice" diet. I'll try grapes at some point. There's a cheap juicer for sale on amazon that I ordered:
click here
(URL embedded to get rid of wide page.)

It's about $30 refurbished, seems to have decent reviews.

Like David, I'm thinking of some sort of juice fasting habit as a lifestyle, so I want to check in on the whole juicing scene.

I went through a wheatgrass phase once, but that took too much effort. Excellent stuff, though.

I've ordered a couple of books on juice fasting as well.

I've got that tongue coating and bad breath just a bit, but not too bad.

I keep a can of v8 or t-juice in my vicinity so if I need some grounding fast, I can have it.

-Kyle
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Sparkle

Ireland
1457 Posts

Posted - Apr 17 2006 :  6:07:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Sparkle's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I started the grape fast last Thursday and one of the first jobs I was asked to do was go down and collect the fish and chips for the wife and kids - my first challenge. Passed this test and then had to endure wafting curry smells etc. etc. - my family have a good sense of humour

On Easter Sunday the wafting smells of the Duck and all the spices and wine sauce was too much - so I decided it would be appropriate to eat with the family on Easter Sunday

I wondered about restarting the fast the next morning but when I was bringing my wife her breakfast in bed ( as usual) I sucumbed to tea and toast in bed myself.

Not the journey of a diligent yogi.
Had a light meal in the evening (now 11pm here) and that's it.

Even though I have returned to light meals the fact that I was on the fast for three days resisting the cravings etc. has made it much easier to resist habit eating.
The peace in me is deepening even though I have come off the fast partially - my meditations are also deeper than usual.

I have another 3 kg of grapes in the fridge so that's a good enough reason to restart for another couple of days.

When doing this before, a number of years ago, the comment was made that as the body releases its toxins and purifies, the toxins can simply lie in the intestines and when the fast is stopped can re-enter the system. It was suggested to take something like plum juice or go on plums for a day to flush the toxins out. What do you people think of this?

Louis

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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2006 :  10:35:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, Louie, my experience with the grapes is that when my fast is broken with a meal, there is a flushing out of the digestive system (= a few trips to the outhouse for an hour or two). I don't know if you'll find the same, but if true, it seems unlikely that there would be a problem with toxins staying there.

Meg, I don't think I'd suffer from malnutrition, or anything like it, if I ate only fruit on the weekdays and proper meals on the weekends. But a dietary behavior like that should only be done by people whose bodies' are ready for it. Mine may be right now -- I don't know, I'll see.

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Manipura

USA
870 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2006 :  10:40:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit Manipura's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
hmmm . . . an hour or two in the outhouse every Saturday? I may have to reconsider . . .

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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2006 :  11:20:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
David,

My thoughts on diet are running around like greased pigs at the moment.

But even so, I've not hatched a plan as ambitious as yours. If it works you'll be a b@d@$$ yogi (I'll see if that gets past the moderator). Be sure you are getting your minerals! Fasting researchers say that there may be some degree of vitamin conservation that happens when fasting, but the QOD kidney doctor's forum says that there is an obligatory loss of minerals on a daily basis which may come into play if intermittent fasting becomes a lifestyle. Possibly vegetable juices, salads, or pills could provide the minerals during the week.

I'm think for long term maybe eating once a day or alternate juice fasts and normal days possibly.

-Yoda

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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2006 :  11:46:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by meg

hmmm . . . an hour or two in the outhouse every Saturday? I may have to reconsider . . .



No, you misunderstood. A few trips to the outhouse for an hour or two. Meaning a few trips in the spans of an hour. Which practically just means don't get too far from the outhouse. Actually, I think I only had to go twice.


Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 19 2006 5:38:19 PM
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2006 :  11:50:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yoda said:
But even so, I've not hatched a plan as ambitious as yours.


It's only a casual thought at this point. It's like I'm saying, "hmmmm, I wonder if.....". Not a "plan" yet.

but the QOD kidney doctor's forum says that there is an obligatory loss of minerals on a daily basis which may come into play if intermittent fasting becomes a lifestyle.

Maybe the important word here is "may". I'm not sure how well-researched or known that is. Does anyone know? I believe that in our evolutionary history as hunter-gatherers, it may have been common to eat nothing but fruits for a few days until we got our hands on some other food.

There may be other mechanisms unknown to the doctor. For example, I suspect that in a dietary practice such as the one in question, the body may well absorb and hold onto far more minerals than normal during the period of "eating real food". It is known that our bodies throw away the vast majority of the vitamins and minerals it absorbs -- the ratios there may change in the case of such a special diet. So while there is mineral loss during the fasting period, the gain in the normal eating period may offset it completely.

One thing I could do is have my body-mineral levels checked after some time on the diet. But as I say, it is not a "plan" yet.


Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 18 2006 5:05:33 PM
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 18 2006 :  9:02:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
So I didn't quite make it to 5 full days of my tomato juice fast. I just couldn't bear to do my thing without some chow in my tummy.

My QOD (alternating day veggie juice fast) book hasn't shown up yet, but that's I think what I'm leaning towards at the moment. If that doesn't float my boat, then the once a day eating, which I've done before comfortably, will be the ticket.
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 19 2006 :  4:41:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Just got my refurbished juicer I mentioned above and it kicks @$$! Cheap and works great. Chews through carrots fast.

I had been living on v8 and tomato juice for the last several days test piloting juice fasting but fresh squeezed juice really packs in an amazing amount of life force that just doesn't come in a can.

I look forward to doing a juice fast on live juice!

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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 19 2006 :  5:37:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Have you ever done a 'grape fast' Yoda?
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 20 2006 :  7:52:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
not yet. I'll try it though. Better than juice you think?
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 21 2006 :  09:55:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Definitely better than bottled juice, but not necessarily so much better than fresh juice. I think it's that 'raw food' factor, you know. But it does have extra fiber over juice, which is good for cleaning you out.

An interesting thing to try might be pureed fresh vegetables and fruit. You could make these in a blender. Chop'm up coarsely, drop in the blender with a little water, and pzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.


Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 21 2006 10:00:00 AM
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 21 2006 :  11:46:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Everyone at taobums.com recommends blending over juicing after I just bought my beloved juicer. Well, it's easy to stir some or all of the fiber back in if I feel like it.
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Yoda

USA
284 Posts

Posted - Apr 22 2006 :  10:25:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit Yoda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yuckers on mixing the fiber back in, btw.

I picked up some grapes, I'll try that out. Their level of acidy is about as aggressive as my teeth can handle, so that's nice about them. I'm thinking that I would net fewer calories on grapes than carrot and celery juice which I have strong desire to chug.

I read up on one of my favorite philosophers, Osho, what he says about fasting. He reviles it. He says that it is nothing but a continuation of all the negative aspects of religion that we are all trying to get away from... ideas that the body and desires and worldliness are bad and need to be attacked. Fasting is a form of self punishment. Since it lowers certain hormone configurations, it lends a sense of detachment and "mastery" over one's sexual and worldly appetites. This is the only way for your standard moralist to get "beyond" their biological drives, so it's a very popular practice.

I think Osho's take is a bit outdated for our purposes.
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david_obsidian

USA
2602 Posts

Posted - Apr 22 2006 :  6:01:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yoda said:
[Osho said] Fasting is a form of self punishment.


Yes, Osho is not quite on the ball here if you are representing him well. Fasting can be done badly, for bad reasons, but it can be done well and for good reasons also. From what you are saying, Osho seems to recognize only one part of that truth, not the other.

He seems to be tarring the skilful use of fasting with the same brush as the unskilful use of it.

Osho is great, but he shot his mouth off a lot. Which, truth be told, makes him all the more fun to read for someone like me, but every now and then you have to take him with a grain of salt!

Edited by - david_obsidian on Apr 22 2006 6:35:25 PM
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