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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 12 2006 : 08:59:16 AM
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Recently I practised hold back about once a week. But after 25-35 mins or so I almost always end up with orgasm, which is rather discouraging, of course.
What I found out, however, is that the day after orgasm is not necessarily bad. Very often I feel an even better flow of energy during my yoga practices on the following day. Ejaculation is supposed to be depleting the prana, right? Anyone can explain what I experienced?
Of course once a week for people of my age is not much. To do more will probably deplete me. So I suspect that it's even GOOD to have orgasm occasionally, as long as it's not too frequently.
Another observation (much more reasonable one) is that I need more sleep after orgasm.
Any comments are welcomed. |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2006 : 09:33:04 AM
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Hi Alvin:
The extra energy is an indication that the pre-orgasmic cultivation is outweighing the depletion after orgasm. This is disucussed here: http://www.aypsite.org/T46.html
It is beginning to work for you.
Now, if you add blocking, you will have another leg up in sexual energy management. Yes, I know it is troublesome at first. Clunky stage. You'll get over it. It is much easier than learning vajroli. More effective too, because you don't lose the semen to begin with, so don't have to suck it back up (a really silly macho application of vajroli).
Holdback combined with blocking eventually becomes natural vajroli -- unending automatic upward cultivation, as discussed here and elsewhere in the tantra lessons: http://www.aypsite.org/T30.html
As it advances, this is can be stimulated by sambhavi and/or kechari alone. That is the rise of ecstatic conductivity between head and root.
The secrets of our ecstatic neurobiology revealed and self-evident within us!
The guru is in you.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2006 : 11:52:53 AM
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Thanks for your quick and helpful response.
The energy flow, though still very subtle, is important to convince me about the validity of these practices. As this tends to occur after sex, I think sexual stimulations have much to offer my practices? At least at this moment. (I have already added siddhasana, but that alone cannot give me that much energy flow)
I have only tried blocking once, since I still have some concerns about it: (sorry, there are many terms I only know in Chinese)
1. During normal ejaculation, the path up to the bladder is closed by muscles around, wheras the doorway down is opened. So, when muscles along the tract contract, semen will be driven out. These are all natural, and for most of us involuntary when it happens.
In blocking, we close the outward path, so that the semen will be driven to the supposedly closed doorway. I suspect that, over a long time, the natural reflex of the muscle contraction (during ejaculation) which closes the upward path to the bladder may be weakened.
The results may be, that even when we don't block, some semen would go to the bladder. So the semen may not come out as effectively as before.
2. Even after reading the lessons, I still don't understand the rationale behind blocking. The depleting effects are certainly not due to the loss of semens. As I understand it, blocking is just forcing the semens into the bladder. So why would it eventually become vajroli then??
If it really would, the only explanation I can think of is that: because we have less pleasure with blocking, tat indicates that the neurological changes (like hormonal changes) caused by orgasm is less with blocking (than with usual orgasm). So it's less depleting!?
I think the main thing it do is to develop continence, which is indeed important; but that sound a bit silly for me to reduce sexual pleasure intentionally just to make us less obsessive about sex.
That's the two main doubts I have about blocking.
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I don't mind if I have no real orgasm for a long time. Hold-back is pleasurable for me. It's just that I lose control everytime when I don't think orgasm could happen so suddenly. I have found a large amount of information (in Chinese) on Chinese practices (including but not just Taoist's) to preserve sexual energy. But most of them are too complicated, not usable immediately for my purposes now. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2006 : 12:37:23 PM
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i'm not an expert at this, so I'll write my understanding of it, and depend on others to correct me if I'm wrong:
It is normal for excess semen to go into the bladder. But i suspect prana doesn't go with it on that route.
Yes the depleting effect is from loss of semen. Prana is lost with it.
Young people like you can replenish it quicker than older guys like me,
but it still causes loss of prana. Semen has to be full of prana because it is meant to create a new life.
So why is it important to not lose prana when it is replenished quickly in young people? Because what we are learning to do with meditation is "ecstatic conductivity". What that means is orgasm type energy, but where orgasm is a pleasurable release going out of the body, ecstatic conductiviy is more of a "circulation" of that pleasure inside us.
The normal orgasm we can't control, whereas with ecstatic conductivity we are learning to control the prana inside of us.
The main problem people have who don't meditate is that they have no control of prana, and it is scattered out into the outside world, not only by orgasm, but a hundred other ways. They have no control of it.
This causes misunderstanding of the world around us, and sorrow.
Then as we meditate, we slowly gain control of prana, and cause it
to concentrate in the shushumna central energetic channel in the middle of our spine. This is the path to God and ecstatic living on earth.
So it's not so much about how much is lost, but learning to control it.
So orgasm is so pleasurable that it distracts us from that purpose by making us feel like orgasm is the proper use of prana. That feeling is there for perpetuation of the species, but it locks you into animal existance instead of spiritual evolution which will ultimately bring much more pleasure. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 12 2006 12:44:43 PM |
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yogani99
USA
153 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2006 : 2:05:11 PM
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Hi Alvin and Etherfish:
Actually, the bladder plays a key role in the circulation of sexual essences, which corresponds with the pranic flow. Every pranic flow has a neurobiological correspondence. Which is not to say we can always pin-point it, because as it refines it runs deep into the ecstatic realms and marries with pure bliss consciousness which underlies the whole process. Kind of hard to find the bladder, or any other body part, in there.
None of this is to say that we ought to be having lots of orgasms and blocking them up into the bladder. No. What happens is, over the course of our development on all fronts in yoga in relation to our normal life (including normal sexual activity redirected via tantric means), a very refined process develops which involves sexual essences being drawn up through multiple pathways -- the bladder being but one of them, the one most associated with spiritual arousal and flow of the subtle (or not so subtle) sexual essences. This applies to both women and men, though there are differences in method due to anatomy, of course.
After writing this morning, I thought of an analogy that might help with understanding the natural versus not-so-natural approaches that men take to this in relation to vajroli:
If we want to keep the horse in the barn, does it make sense to be letting the horse out of the barn and then devising complicated strategies (macho vajroli) for getting the horse back into the barn? Maybe it would be better to put a good latch on the barn (blocking) and then the problem is solved.
There are those who would say, "Don't go near the barn (abstention), and the horse won't be getting excited and trying to run out."
Maybe so, but that leaves the horse either irritated or asleep, neither of which is tantric or yogic. So we actively engage the horse, teaching it to be active in the barn. Then we find vast new directions the horse can run without ever leaving the barn. Well, am I taking this analogy too far? 
Remember, the definition of brahmacharya (from the AYP point of view) is both "preservation and cultivation of sexual energy." That is why we do the practices we do in AYP.
And yes, Alvin, a little inner experience goes a long way toward verifying what is being said here. Otherwise, we'd be wasting our time. Experience is the final arbiter in all of this, and enables us to proceed with confidence in self-directed practices.
For making more progress, you can also add mulabandha and/or asvini into the mix. Take your pick -- both are mainly in the anus/rectum in AYP and from there it naturally goes where it must.
The biggest stimulator of prana in the pelvic region is kumbhaka (breath retention as found in yoni mudra and chin pump), but I suggest you not take that on until you are very stable in everything that comes before. Spinal breathing has a more gentle kumbhaka effect, so that is the place to tackle it with breath first. Pranayama (restraint of breath) is the single greatest stimulant of ecstatic conductivity. When combined with siddhasana and mulabandha and followed by deep meditation, we can't miss over the long term. And that is without even considering tantric sex -- which makes a poor spiritual practice all by itself. There are too many other aspects that have to be addressed to achieve ecstatic conductivity. Tantric sex alone cannot do it. So don’t get too carried away with the tantra thing. Keep your practices in balance.
And enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2006 : 08:03:18 AM
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Thanks for the sharings, Etherfish and Yogani.
I still think that semen loss is not the main cause of depletion, although it's certainly part of it. Why don't we drink the semen if it is?
Two days after the orgasm, this morning the effect fade away. To experiment a little bit (as I always intend to), I tried tantric masturbation, to confirm two things: 1. the causal relation between the energy flow and sexual activity and; 2. that the energy is due to pre-orgasmic cultivation, not orgasm. I am glad to confirm both of these!!
But despite the energy flow, I have a brain fog and uneasiness afterwards, which gave me some troubles. Is it reasonable to blame the sexual stimulations for that?
If the brain fog and uneasiness feelings are really due to that, what should be done about it? (other than stopping sex, which I can't.....) I would like to have the energy flow without the brain fog and uneasiness....
A long power yoga class seems to help, but I can't always afford such time. Also I am doing Uddiyana bandha twice a day, dynamically with 4 rounds of around 40 lifts in one holding breath. It feels great while doing it, but should I stop that after having sex? |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2006 : 08:52:27 AM
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After 2 days of no sex, and reducing practice on uddiyana and amaroli, the brain fog disappear. But the energy flow is weaker again, too. I pick up uddiyana again this afternoon. I worry that the next time I have sex (tantric or not), the brain fog and uneasiness will come. Any advices here?
I will try to see if amaroli is be blamed for my bad symptoms. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2006 : 12:20:32 PM
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| This question of whether the sperm actually is the source of the energetic buildup and depletion is one that I have been puzzling over for some time. Right now I am involved in a committed experiment on that. Since I had my vasectomy I have been observing my energy changes. If the actual sperm were the source of the energy changes then I would be expected to have minimal changes now that no actual s[erm are being released. So far this does not seem to be the case. My sensation of charge/discharge and energy conductivity in relation to sexual activity seem basically unchanged from before. It is still too soon to have any conclusions but so far it does not seem to be the actual sperm cells that are responsible for these energetic changes. |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 09:27:20 AM
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There are some good reasons to see that the loss of sperms is not the main factor.
1. Men usually experienced the tiredness right after orgasm (ejaculation), not a few hours later. But even before ejaculations, the semen is ready to be out. At least that part is not being used by the body at that moment. If the semen is flourishing our body (this part may be true), and our tiredness is due to the loss of it, we should feel tired at least a couple of minutes later, not immediately.
(After ejaculation, though, the body will be stimulated to produce more semen. This WILL use up some energy, but it's not very much related to the immediate tiredness.)
2. The nice feeling of orgasm is due (mainly) to the immediate, quick release of large amount of neurotransmittors, notably dopamine & serotonin. Then the level of dopamine goes down quickily afterwards. But the remaining serotonin makes one feel sleepy (and happy). That's one reason why men like to fall into sleep after sex. The whole process is hardwired into our biological structure that it is not possible to experience many orgasms (for men) in a single day. There is a price for the intense nice feeling.
That's not the whole story, but a big part of it. And enough to explain a lot. According to this theory, as long as your orgasm feels the same, the depleting effects would not be much different. At least the immediate depleting effects should not change.
The hold back is different, because we are not triggering real orgasm. Also, if you can retain the semen in your body (by, say, blocking), then the immediate depleting effect would depend on how nice your orgasm is, but in the long term it may really help preserving some energy. since it is a scientific fact that our body has the ability to re-absorb and recycle and unused semen. (whether this process can be done in the bladder is unknown to me, though) |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 11:25:07 AM
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Alvin,
As I posted in another thread: there are ways to attain Male Multiple Orgasm without any last-moment holding back/blocking. I experienced it spontaneously. A fellow name Jack Johnston specializes in teaching an intentional method. It involves using vocal sound and "valley breathing." Alvin, you are clearly a good canditate for Johnston's method(google "Jack Johnston". There is no holdinng back and only minimal external stimulation. It helped me understand and intentionally trigger "energy orgasms."
Bewell |
Edited by - bewell on Mar 10 2006 11:28:39 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 11:58:28 AM
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quote:
Holdback combined with blocking eventually becomes natural vajroli -- unending automatic upward cultivation
There's a little trick to hasten this. Lie on your back, and make a horizontal wrinkle in your abdomen, just below the rib cage. Move the wrinkle down, like a wave, through your navel and down to the pubic bone. Be aware that you're moving energy as well as flesh. Just before you get to the pubic bone, you'll find that your testicles jump (if you're male....for females I've heard it doesn't work so good). Practice hitting that point.
If you 1. have enough bhakti and discipline so that your orgasm buildup is always directed upward (rather than outward), and you 2. learn to do that move at the right time (it only happens if, you master #1), you get natural vajroli.
OTOH, Yogani's absolutely right when he says, in the lessons, that it's counterproductive to put a lot of time into learning vajroli, because of the energy lost as you try to learn the move. My point here isn't to entice everyone into losing their energy trying to learn a skill. It's just a potential shortcut that may or may not get people there quickly. If not, don't sweat it. Learning it has not changed my life much. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 12:02:03 PM
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| PS--you don't lose that much energy from one ejaculation (I mean without hold back). And, indeed, Yogani says it's cool in moderation. But if you have a massive number over the course of a few days, you will feel weak and fuzzy, no question, unless you have SO much natural prana that you don't notice the core weakness. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 10 2006 12:02:32 PM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 12:37:39 PM
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| I would echo Jims observation here. After my vasectomy I had to have 20 orgasms before getting tested as safe. This period of time is generally 2 months and I have been doing my best to stay on shedule with it since there is no point in getting this operation till you can enjoy the benefits without fear. At first I felt that I didn't lose as much energy and did my best to increase my frequency but after a few weeks found that I did indeed lose energy as before. maybe slightly less but pretty similar. I pretty much drained my energy rock bottom and so am having to rechargh a bit rather than rush to stay on shedule. I feel it mostly in the eyes. If you compare your eyes to light bulbs and your sexual energy to a battery I feel like I get different levels of brightness with charge/discharge |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 1:47:53 PM
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| interesting with the eye thing. makes sense. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2006 : 1:53:00 PM
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sorry to dominate this thread, but one more point.
If you have so much sexual energy that you feel the need to orgasm more than a moderate amount, you're not doing a very good job with my point #1 above: you're slacking on cultivating upward movement of this energy. It feels a lot nicer in your heart than in your nether regions. Once you realize this, and your bhakti drives you to more profound releases of energy, the point should be moot (i.e. orgasm becomes a once-in-a-while thing, though the feeling of gurgling upwardly wafting sexual energy becomes a very pleasant all-the-time thing) |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Mar 10 2006 11:12:18 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 7:16:39 PM
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"...orgasm becomes a once-in-a-while thing, though the feeling of gurgling upwardly wafting sexual energy becomes a very pleasant all-the-time thing" wrote Jim ahk.
Jim,
That is similar to my experience. I enjoy the sexual energies inward and upward most of the time and outward occasionally.
But I have "non-ejaculatory orgasms," and if I understand what you are saying, this is somewhat different from your experience. With non-ejaculatory orgasms, all the reproductive muscles are pumping, but no ejaculate comes out. Unlike when blocking, semen does not go into the bladder either (except for pre-ejaculate sometimes). There is no emission. Most times this happens with no erection and no external stimulation. It is an inner excitation/reflex that pumps inner energy upward. Happens frequently: twice today during meditation. Very pleasurable.
On another note: That rolling motion in the belly that you spoke of sounds like something similar to Johnston's Key Sound in that the articulation of the sound involves a wave motion of the belly muscles. However, Key Sound is articulated while pushing the belly out. Key Sound is used to initiate the experience, but once the door is opened, the experience can come under a range of conditions without any making of sounds.
Bewell |
Edited by - bewell on Mar 18 2006 7:30:33 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 18 2006 : 10:57:56 PM
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| Bewell, but I'm only suggesting rolling until you hit the right muscular and energetic point. It's actually real physical. The rolling is just the way you focus in onthe correct spot to contract |
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some contradictory observations on orgasm!?
