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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 21 2009 : 4:12:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
It seems more people are sensitive to meditation now
...and....
quote:
On the meditation sensitivity, no one likes to self-pace down to near zero.
Just one final quibble, if I may. One of the points I was trying to make is that I don't believe this is a case of meditation sensitivity. When I'm meditating without kundalini being in the picture, I can go on and on with no problem. My problem's with kundalini, specifically, not with meditation. That's one reason I'm sorry to cut back on meditation time (but we do what we must!).
In fact, for several months, I had no rash at all...while meditating up a storm. I assumed the problem was past, because I believed my kundalini was still flowing. For the third or fourth time over the years, I subsequently learned that it's harder than you'd expect to know whether kundalini is truly flowing or if you're just experiencing after-tremors (or experiencing flows of non-kundalini prana with greater sensitivity). If you haven't had the experience of saying to yourself, upon re-ignition, "Woah....I guess my kundalini wasn't active all that time after all!" then it's hard to understand just how tricky it is to know! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 21 2009 4:14:25 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2009 : 5:24:53 PM
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Hi Jim:
Meditation surely is a stimulator of kundalini. The speed and degree of symptoms is a primary way we might conclude someone is sensitive to meditation.
There is also the aspect of delayed reactions, which can occur with pranayama or deep meditation, or any spiritual practice. If you were "meditating up a storm" without the rash symptom, you should not rule out a possible delayed reaction. This would not necessarily mean someone is sensitive to meditation. It could simply be a matter of overdoing while not taking into account a possible delayed reaction. It is very common.
I'm not saying that is what happened. But it is a possibility whenever we do any practice "up a storm." There are many here who can attest to it, myself included. And John Wilder too! 
The guru is in you.
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2009 : 6:06:03 PM
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How do you distinguish what is kundalini and what is not? Yogis and some Theosphists say, that there are 7 layers of kundalini, the first and grossest one is active all the time in everything. That gives you physical awareness. The suptler ones are in direct relation to the awarenes of the suptler bodies.
I don't think this helps in terms of solving your problem, but could be of interest. Here is an interesting video on youtube from a disciple of Babaji, Hariharananda and Yukteswar, the lineage from which many technique combinations you also find in AYP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvK6JsAPSL8 |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2009 : 10:12:05 PM
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Thanks, Yogani.
quote:
Originally posted by Holy
How do you distinguish what is kundalini and what is not?
Well, one's first awakening of kundalini tends to be extraordinarily clear and obvious. The phrase "every cell in your body experiencing profound continuous orgasm" really applied, at least in my case. It's akin to puberty....something way off the map of prior experience, accompanied by a feeling that things are going to be a little different from here on out.
And it's easy to recognize when it reignites (one doesn't easily mistake it). It's a lot harder, per my previous postings, to notice when it dies down, because of after-tremor and increased pranic flow. Also, we're a lot more used to living without kundalini than with it, so it's less "remarkable" seeming in the recession. And yes, I'm open to your implicit point that it might be due to there being different levels of kundalini. Idunno, kundalini feels pretty binary to me, but what do I know?
quote:
Yogis and some Theosphists say, that there are 7 layers of kundalini
Fine by me. I can't really comment on that. Again, to me it feels pretty binary. But though I seem over-analytical, I only do that on problems. Re: other spiritual stuff that comes up, I don't try to "understand", I just let it happen. Especially kundalini. I just have no freaking idea.
quote:
don't think this helps in terms of solving your problem, but could be of interest.
Sure is! Thanks for posting! I'm a big fan of Hariharananda's translation of patanjali. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 21 2009 10:19:25 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2009 : 10:38:03 AM
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I viewed the video. Interesting - more than anything, for the frank confession of the guru that he's of most use to his students if they participate actively/soulfully...or else his talks lack spontaneity. I'm finding lots of inspiration in the emphasis many spiritual teachers place on saying stuff spontaneously each time, and not just grinding into a spiel. Nisargadetta is particularly good at this. People ask him the same question over and over, and he finds a way to answer freshly, differently each time.
The thing that amuses me in the video, though, is that the guru starts out describing kundalini as utterly unfathomable (I agree!). And then he proceeds to give some supposedly very well-fathomed facts. Kundalini moves at 90 feet per second? There are 7 levels of kundalini, and some vaporize you into light? There is an esoteric mudra one absolutely must perform in order for kundalini to be drawn up the spine? I can't help but think he should have stuck with "unfathomable". Though, who knows, I may just be impertinent, and he may have measured the velocity, spoken with folks who've vaporized into light, etc etc. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2009 : 11:32:00 AM
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Yeah he is a funny master, I like him very much. The breath he is talking about is practically the same as SBP and the mudra he talks about is kechari.
And yeah, in his himalaya times, he met some people practicing very intensely, one of them transformed into light before him. The name of that one is Sundarnath or something like that. Ok, I know, this sounds a little crazy, but there are more writings about people in the himalaya for who this seems to be something normal. Yogani implies to this dissolving physically also in his wilder book.
Ok, we got highly offtopic. Wish you the best in getting ease and smoothness :) |
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Steve
277 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2009 : 12:59:20 PM
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Hi Jim,
quote:
Well, one's first awakening of kundalini tends to be extraordinarily clear and obvious. The phrase "every cell in your body experiencing profound continuous orgasm" really applied, at least in my case. It's akin to puberty....something way off the map of prior experience, accompanied by a feeling that things are going to be a little different from here on out.
And it's easy to recognize when it reignites (one doesn't easily mistake it). It's a lot harder, per my previous postings, to notice when it dies down, because of after-tremor and increased pranic flow. Also, we're a lot more used to living without kundalini than with it, so it's less "remarkable" seeming in the recession. And yes, I'm open to your implicit point that it might be due to there being different levels of kundalini. Idunno, kundalini feels pretty binary to me, but what do I know?
There is another factor in the experience of kundalini, how one experiences it internally. When one is deep within Heart, the kundalini can be flowing in full bloom doing its magnificent work, however, the strong and powerful energetics, increased pranic flow and cellular orgasm will not be experienced the same as when one is not as deep within Heart. It is like being within the eye of a hurricane where all is peace and calm, yet outside the eye the power and energy of the hurricane is working doing what it does delivering its impact and effect. Residing within spaciousness of the Heart does not diminish the effect of the working kundalini but does change ones inner experience of the energetics. As the Love fills the heart from above and within, the nature-quality of the kundalini's workings change. Its quality becomes refined and the feeling sense of it becomes much more refined and sublime. This could be interpreted as a diminishing of its working and energetics but not so. Even though not felt the same, it is actually working with increased efficiency, with less internal resistance.
A very interesting experiment that can clearly show the difference in how the kundalini is experienced, is to consciously move to the outer layers of the heart and then back into the deeper levels of the heart. As one begins to move out of the deeper levels of the heart into the outer layers the strong energetic workings are felt and become more and more pronounced. As one reverses the direction and begins to move back into the deeper levels of the heart, the strong energetics are replaced by a solid peace and calm, an open spaciousness filled with love that changes the inner experience of the powerful energetic workings of the kundalini transforming them into a very refined and sublime flow. Kind of like a superconductor. Nothing to resist the flow so the nature of the energetics is experienced differently.
Jim, it could very well be that some of the differences you speak of in terms of the receding and reignition of kundalini could also be related to how deep you were within the Heart at the time. Meaning, there could be times when a recession was not necessarily a recession. Perhaps, you were actually deeper within Heart than you realized and that had the effect of altering the way the kundalini flow was experienced.
Love and Light,
Steve |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2009 : 1:26:23 PM
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quote:
As the Love fills the heart from above and within, the nature-quality of the kundalini's workings change. Its quality becomes refined and the feeling sense of it becomes much more refined and sublime. This could be interpreted as a diminishing of its working and energetics but not so. Even though not felt the same, it is actually working with increased efficiency, with less internal resistance.
Thanks for posting this Steve, this is my experience of it too. Also, when it seems like Kundalini is "on" it is often when I have overdone energy practices, otherwise it is quiet and in the background. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2009 : 2:49:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Holy
Yeah he is a funny master, I like him very much. The breath he is talking about is practically the same as SBP and the mudra he talks about is kechari.
I never did kechari, so....so much for that being absolutely essential. Of course, gurus tend to dogmatize whatever system they've followed, so you need to discount for that when they get all absolute. Yogani, thank goodness, has a flair for cutting through that sort of thing to the gist.
quote:
And yeah, in his himalaya times, he met some people practicing very intensely, one of them transformed into light before him. The name of that one is Sundarnath or something like that.
Yeah, he probably ran into him just after he met Babaji (whose name he drops, if I'm not mistaken, twice in that video). This guru mockingly says he thought all Americans had opened their Kundalini. My retort is that all Indians seem to have met Babaji!
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2009 : 2:54:57 PM
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Steve, that "eye of the hurricaine" is something I, too have been experiencing. It seems a function of my growing more open and accommodating to the energy flow....and my silence expanding to accommodate it as just another "experience" (in fact, that's what's vexing me: Kundalini has come to feel fairly integrated, rather than some jarring dramatic event, and all symptoms are gone, EXCEPT the rash!).
None of this necessarily contradicts your note about the heart. As you go through that process of opening/accommodation, and that expansion of silence (which, over time, make kundalini feel more "integrated") the heart indeed does expand. There's no cause/effect with the heart, of course. It's all just expansion and embrace. And...............rash.
I'm grousing about it, but I actually do accept Yogani's theory that there's some fundamental contraction/block/friction that has yet to be released, even though I perceive things to be flowing expansively. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 22 2009 2:59:18 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2009 : 2:57:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
When it seems like Kundalini is "on" it is often when I have overdone energy practices, otherwise it is quiet and in the background.
I think we are observing the same thing and describing it with different words. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 22 2009 2:57:50 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2009 : 2:58:21 PM
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Sure you can not know , but he is from the same kriya lineage as Lahiri, Yukteswar, Yogananda and Hariharananda.
As I understand, he says, that the kundalini rising is not complete without the kechari. Yogani also says, that it brings everything to a much higher level. I myself am also not able to enter kechari mudra, so can't say much of experience anyway =P But hey, we are still way off topic =P From kundalini rashes to kechari mudra =) |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - Oct 26 2009 : 1:47:51 PM
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Hi Jim,
Just to mention, I have never cut back on practice times because of the kundalini rash... I just put up with it.
Obviously, what you decide to do depends on how much suffering it is causing you, and what your individual comfort zone is.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Oct 26 2009 3:31:06 PM |
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arzkiyahai
93 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2009 : 10:21:48 PM
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Hi Jim,
I got rash few years back I still don't know if it was related to kundalini or not, but it was very itchy. This is what I did, I went to the doctor and he gave me a liquid to put on it after taking bath. The liquid use to create foam and I was supposed to wait to wear clothes till the foam disappears, it helped tremendously with the itching, when I was out of liquid I simply went back to got more liquid prescribed,I kept doing that till the itch got a little under control.
I am probably not of much help here, but this is what I did. |
Edited by - arzkiyahai on Oct 28 2009 02:26:07 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Nov 02 2009 : 05:41:47 AM
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hi Jim, just laying a thought out there...
"in case" you are using mantra enhancements in your deep meditation sessions; i know that it would be a bother but don't you think that it might help more in self pacing if you could go back into what you were using before the enhancement.
just my 2 cents on the self pacing subject
and on another subject, i relate to kundalini the same way as Anthem.
when it's very on with all the vibration and ecstasy in every cell and beyond the body, it feels like this might be an overload and i tend to lower that down when it gets very powerful and present.
for example yesterday my bhakti was raging like hell, so i said to myself why not meditate a little more than what i am used to; and while going at it a deeper layer of samadhi hit me like a hammer and cleared the mind and i felt like being energetically skinned out of my body and my aura was very much vibrating...
take care brother and hopefully things will calm down with you in due time... and they will! don't worry i sort've been through one of them episodes lately and it wasn't such a fun ride it did hurt a lot (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=5873) but things ended nicely.
namaste |
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jean
Germany
107 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2013 : 06:11:10 AM
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Very interesting thread, thanks Jim and Yogani.
I might have very similar situation where I have a rash on the right side of my coccyx.
I think it appeared about 1.5 years ago, that was also the time where I had to start self pacing. |
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2013 : 08:54:32 AM
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| JimAndHisKarma said that he was self-pacing since he started AYP, but his kundalini uncoiled like a spring. So does self-pacing really have anything to do with one's severity of kundalini awakening, or is this something one cannot really control? Well, he also mentioned that he "meditated up a storm", so I don't really know. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2013 : 10:48:10 AM
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Hi ak33,
Kundalini is our noticing energy flowing in deeper aspects of consciousness. As issues, fears and obstructions start to clear we notice the flow sort of "rubbing up" against obstructions when the mind is relatively quiet. The "severity of Kundalini" is really more dependent on ones ability to "let go of" the underlying obstructions. If you let go of them, kundalini is a smooth and loving flow. If not, the energy continues to rub/hit against the obstructions. It is the rubbing/hitting process (without letting go) which creates all of the negative kundalini issues that people describe.
Regards, Jeff |
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2013 : 12:37:33 PM
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| Perhaps I'm drawing conclusions, but doesn't that basically mean that no matter how much I self-pace, once Kundalini becomes active it will be my presence of mind and ability to surrender that define the severity? |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2013 : 2:53:40 PM
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It sort of depends on the depth (or type) of energy that the person is calling Kundalini. Normally people call any energy flow that is not consciously controlled Kundalini. As clarity increases, it is possible to more consciously control the Kundalini flows, but there is no real point, as the Divine or "higher self" knows better where to send/focus it for the issues/obstructions.
The energy (or Kundalini) is always flowing, it is more if one notices it. Practices sort of chip away at obstructions. Self-pacing has an impact in that you stop chipping away for a while, giving some rest, but when a major (kundalini) dam breaks, it breaks. In these cases grounding becomes very important as it helps to deal with the expanded energy flow.
Best, Jeff |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2013 : 11:03:02 AM
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Note: I replied to this last night, but I'm starting again, having noticed I'd misunderstood ak33's question. I'll answer in two parts
quote:
Originally posted by ak33
doesn't that basically mean that no matter how much I self-pace....[kundalini can awaken?]
Correct. There's nothing one can do to prevent kundalini from igniting if it wants to. In fact, many people find themselves with awakened kundalini without having done practices of any sort. Even people who never even thought of themselves as "spiritual".
However, overdoing spiritual practices (such as AYP) definitely can hasten a kundalini awakening, and increase the problems that may stem from that awakening. Actually, overdoing practices can cause all sorts of problems, aside from kundalini. So self-pacing is really important, which is why Yogani stresses it so repeatedly.
quote:
Originally posted by ak33
...it will be my presence of mind and ability to surrender that define the severity?
No. Kundalini is not more or less "severe". Kundalini is kundalini.
The problems you hear some people report are not with kundalini energy, per se, it's with their internal blocks and retractions. When any sort of life energy (prana, kundalini, whatever) hits blockage, there's some friction as the block is dissolved. If it's light friction, we perceive it as delight, or even ecstasy. It's a baked-in bodily reaction telling us that relaxing and letting go is a good thing to do (like eating, sleeping, and procreating).
But too much of a good thing is possible. If you have more substantial and unyielding blocks and retractions, the result will be a higher level of friction, especially (but not exclusively) when they're being hit by greater energies.
AYP is all about clearing those blocks and retractions very gently. Gradually you feel the more familiar energy, your prana, more fully inhabiting your body. You feel, in a sense, more fully alive. Eventually, your neurology is clear enough to more easily accommodate the stronger, more heedless energy of kundalini, as well.
So the only problem in any of this is your own blocks (aka resistances, aka clenchings, aka retractions, aka karma....most of which is unconscious). When the universe comes knocking, how tightly have you locked your doors and windows?
Deep surrender is an opening. Opening creates a sensation of energy. Big surrender and opening brings kundalini. You may be more or less susceptible, depending on many factors. If you do AYP carefully, with self-pacing, you will erode the blockages that cause the problems and you will be ready for it. If you overdo it, you will invite it before that prep work is complete.
If you develop a deep fear of kundalini, and therefore a deep fear of surrender, then just self-pace even more. There's nothing wrong with, say, a 5 minute meditation period. Again, you're clearing the obstructions that will eventually block the inevitable.
But there's no reason to fear kundalini. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I was severely affected. I am, in this thread, expressing some comical exasperation about the bit of itchy skin next to my coccyx, which ebbs and flows with my kundalini presence. In my mind, that's an absolutely fair trade-off for the equanimity I'm able to find amid the trials and tribulations of this world, for the youthful vigor, and for a level of creamy bliss that makes percocet (and other much-craved opiates) seem like harsh garbage by comparison.
So....I'd suggest neither fearing it nor over-doing in order to experience it. Take the middle path. Do the practices and self-pace to your comfort level. It's really quite simple (unless you spend lots of time reading yoga message boards, which are all about cultivating complexity). |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 16 2013 12:08:56 PM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2013 : 1:44:41 PM
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quote:
Deep surrender is an opening. Opening creates a sensation of energy. Big surrender and opening brings kundalini.
wow very well said [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2013 : 3:59:06 PM
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| Thank you Jim, you have cleared up a lot of my questions. I have felt energy moving around these past few days and it felt blocked (this included some fear, depression, and profuse sweating), until I learned to surrender to it. Its been much more cooperative since. My question is, is this just prana moving around or kundalini (because I don't think I've awakened it yet). Maybe its just purification going on? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2013 : 5:42:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ak33
I have felt energy moving around these past few days and it felt blocked (this included some fear, depression, and profuse sweating), until I learned to surrender to it. Its been much more cooperative since. My question is, is this just prana moving around or kundalini (because I don't think I've awakened it yet). Maybe its just purification going on?
If you're not sure it's kundalini, it's not kundalini. But there may be stirrings.
Here's the puzzle piece you may still be missing: even that feeling of surrender you're trying to cultivate in day-to-day life needs to be self-paced. Yes, it's a solution. Yes, it's good. Yes, it helps. But surrender MUST be self-paced. It's a practice! If you're out and about thinking about surrender a lot, that's an over-doing. And it's the easiest overdoing to overlook, so I'd suggest you be on top of it.
Also, those sorts of negative symptoms are, indeed, purification. The biggest surprise of this whole path is that cleaning's dirty work. We start out thinking we'll just get purer and more awesome and happy, but we're cleaning out eons of toxic gook, and if you're looking for a squeaky-clean feeling of purity, well, sorry, but that's just not part of it. Again: cleaning's dirty work.
If you're getting those sorts of symptoms, you're on the verge of overdoing. Self-pace MORE at these times. This is the essence of self-pacing. When stuff gets problematic, in any way/shape/form: SELF-PACE!
The depression is of particular concern. I'd pull back all your timings a bit (and if you recently added on a practice, give it up for a few months or years). And work harder to engage more in the world - walk, exercise, talk, do UNSPIRITUAL stuff....but keep doing the practices.
In other words, your feelings of concern are apt. So.....yep, you got it: self-pace! :)
Let me know if you have further questions....I appreciated the email heads up about this thread, but I'll try to pop in every couple days to see if there are follow-up questions.
If the depression continues, two suggestions:
1. always choose action (i.e. say "yes" to just about every offer, even to do dull stuff with people you don't like....i.e. don't just sit there).
2. read my postings in these threads:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....&whichpage=2
and
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1016 |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on May 16 2013 5:46:59 PM |
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2013 : 5:54:15 PM
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Thanks Jim, so I guess feelings of depression mean I must be overdoing practices. But when I stopped resisting the purification, the feelings of depression went with it (though the uneasiness and fear remain). It literally feels like energy moving around, but it grounds the more I engage with people and as the day progresses. I'm only doing 6 min SBP and 20 min DM, but I will cut down the SBP to 2-3 mins. Also, how does one self-pace surrender?
I really appreciate all your help, these are some of the most concise and to-the-point answers I've ever gotten. |
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This Freaking Rash Will Live On After I'm Dead
