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kadak
79 Posts |
 Posted - May 03 2007 : 1:30:23 PM
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After reading the forum, the AYP techniques (not entirely, I confess), and other yoga sites, I couldn't help notice that the indian yoga system is dangerously incomplete, and I will provide here the missing information. Practicing myself tibetan yogas, the missing part was easy to find - and please don't think I believe tibetan system being superior. The 2 systems have missing parts, but these parts are different. Indian yoga is more accurate but more dangerous because something VERY important is missing. Tibetan yogas are les accurate but less dangerous because they provide the whole information.
The tibetan system is simple. They are saying that the most subtle part of our body are the drops. There are 2 kind of drops, white and red. The white drop contains the fatherly essence (it is the essence of male semen) and the red drop is the motherly essence (it is the essence of the blood). Now, theses drops are everywhere in the body, but the white one is particularly concentrate at the top of the head in the crown chakra, whereas the red drop is particularly concentrate in the navel and chakras below. The red drop is the source of the inner fire, so it is used in the inner fire meditation (tummo).
So what happens ? Concentrating on the navel chakra or below will have the same effect as spinal breathing, the fire will grow up. Now, what is missing in the indian system ? If the fire grows up in the central channel, it will drip the white drop, especially on the top of the head, and the white drop is cold. So the result will be a transmutated fire which won't burn anything, because it will be different of simple fire. But, if you are not able to drip the white drop, i.e. the fire is not in the central channel, but outside, the fire will just burn everything in its path. That's where indian system is very dangerous. It doesn't mention the existence of the white drop and its importance. If you're able to drip it, you will be able to increase more and more the fire, because it won't be dangerous anymore.
The secret is to ignite the fire in the central channel, and keep it small until you master the dripping of the white drop. Then you will be able to keep a balance in your system. If the top of your head is burning, it just means that the fire is not in the central channel, so you have to find the central channel, which you can reach by the spinal nerve. Concentrating on the spinal nerve, you can open the central channel (one can say that the spinal nerve is the door to the central channel), and you will know it because you will find blissfull points. These are very tiny points. There, the fire will begin to refresh, and you will be able to go on the top of the head with no danger. Here you will find a great quantity of white drop which will allow you to increase your fire.
In tibetan yogas the white drop is associated with bliss, the more it drips, the more bliss you have.
This is not a great secret, these are the basis of the tummo yoga, explained for example in "Clear light of bliss" (gueshe kelsang gyatso) or "The bliss of inner fire" (lama yeshe).
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Edited by - kadak on May 03 2007 1:45:36 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2007 : 11:03:10 AM
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Hi Kadak, and welcome!
Thank you for the fascinating look at Tibetan yoga. While the terminology is different, it sounds similar to what we are doing here. We are all dealing with the same nervous system, yes?
If I read you correctly, going to the crown is prescribed when a balanced blending of the "red and white drops" can be achieved, which is a process of purification and opening in the spinal nerve.
In AYP, we achieve this via root to brow (ajna) spinal breathing pranayama, which is very stabilizing in most people, plus judicious application of certain mudras and bandhas. All the while, the crown is being purified and opened by proxy, so it can be accessed directly and safely as a gradual merging of ajna (third eye) and crown occurs over time. Ajna (third eye) means "command," and this approach is a well-used and relatively safe one in yoga for managing the energy aspects of purification and opening.
What we are trying to do here is make it an accessible and safe process for everyone, avoiding the calamities that have been so common in many schools of yoga, as you have recognized. Most of these problems can be attributed to premature crown openings, and the practices that are promoted in the name of progress. Ironically, such approaches are often a formula for delay rather than progress, as it can take months or years to sort out the resulting energy imbalances.
The AYP Spinal Breathing Pranayama book recently received a bad review on Amazon from a long time root to crown practitioner, who stated that root to brow route is a diversion and does not work (even though there is strong evidence to the contrary). In the same review he says (apparently removed later) that the medical establishment needs to gain a much better understanding of kundalini excesses so as to deal with them better. These excesses are often created and/or exacerbated by the approach he is promoting!
So, yes, you are right that yoga has some wrong ideas, and continues to promote them strongly.
Even more importantly, and virtually absent from many of the energy oriented schools of yoga, is the cultivation of inner silence in the aspirant. Here in AYP, we regard this to be the foundation of all spiritual progress, including the merging of ecstatic energy with stillness to become outpouring divine love -- unitary stillness in action in the world, expanding Oneness, which is enlightenment on the move throughout humanity.
Accordingly, AYP crosses traditional lines to join some of the best methods of energy cultivation with some of the best methods of inner silence cultivation -- the latter including deep meditation, samyama and other practices. We continue to evolve on all fronts on the basis of practices in relation to real experiences -- cause, effect, and self-pacing of this ever-unfolding dynamic in each of us, and in all of us in interconnected ways.
How does Tibetan yoga address the inner silence aspect? Is there deep meditation or an equivalent in that system? Where do you see improvements being necessary in the Tibetan approach?
All points of view are welcome. All the best!
The guru is in you.
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2007 : 11:49:25 AM
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quote:
Thank you for the fascinating look at Tibetan yoga. While the terminology is different, it sounds similar to what we are doing here. We are all dealing with the same nervous system, yes?
Absolutely, that's why I came to your site because there are many additionnal and useful information. Tibetan system has its weaknesses too ! For example, the yoni mudra has been explained to us, only from an external point of view (how to place the fingers). It made no sense. With your explanations, it is much better.
quote:
If I read you correctly, going to the crown is prescribed when a balanced blending of the "red and white drops" can be achieved, which is a process of purification and opening in the spinal nerve.
In fact, as we don't concentrate on the lowest chakras, but only on the navel chakra, the fire is not too hot there, so we can bring it to the crown chakra. There we learn to drip the white drop. When that's OK, we can go to the lowest chakras. Of course they don't tell it. They just don't speak of them, and someday you discover by yourself that these ones contain much more fire.
quote:
In AYP, we achieve this via root to brow (ajna) spinal breathing pranayama, which is very stabilizing in most people, plus judicious application of certain mudras and bandhas. All the while, the crown is being purified and opened by proxy, so it can be accessed directly and safely as a gradual merging of ajna (third eye) and crown occurs over time. Ajna (third eye) means "command," and this approach is a well-used and relatively safe one in yoga for managing the energy aspects of purification and opening.
Do you moderate the fire with ajna chakra ? Because, as I experienced it, the problem is not the opening of the crown chakra, but the heat coming from under. When the fire is too hot, it burns the head. What I experience as an "opening" of the crown chakra doesn't seem to be dangerous, because I feel it as a "fresh fire" (like breathing the air of the mountains) opening all the little channels + central channel in the head, clearing the mind and giving bliss.
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What we are trying to do here is make it an accessible and safe process for everyone, avoiding the calamities that have been so common in many schools of yoga
Yes, you seem to do rather well, considering the difficulties of the task.
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How does Tibetan yoga address the inner silence aspect? Is there deep meditation or an equavalent in that system? Where do you see improvements being necessary in the Tibetan approach?
In tummo meditation, inner silence comes from bliss. When inner fire grows up, the white drop drips, opening the central channel more and more, giving birth to "the simultaneously born bliss". This bliss causes the winds (gross and subtle winds) to enter and dissolve in the central channel (there are 7 signs and what you call kevala kumbakha). Thus you reach the clear light (of waking state), and the aim of tumo meditation is to merge this clear light (which is our nature) with the bliss, giving birth to "simultaneously born great blissful wisdom" (=the wisdom realizing unity with the simultaneously born bliss).
This is meant to help to reach consciously the clear light of deep sleep (because the process is the same, but deeper), and then the clear light of death (what can be done only during an "union" with a partner). But this is a very high level and few reach it. Tummo yoga is only the first of the six yogas of Naropa.
In fact the bliss is easy to reach, but I have to confess that in my case I am far from the clear light. I have to develop more devotion, more opening etc... and it will naturally come. But not today...
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Swami Vajra
42 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2007 : 12:11:00 PM
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| How wonderful is it to see Learned Ones in discussion of the process of Oneness? May we experience such exchanges both inwardly and outwardly from dawn to dawn! Amen |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2007 : 12:18:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kadak
Do you moderate the fire with ajna chakra ? Because, as I experienced it, the problem is not the opening of the crown chakra, but the heat coming from under. When the fire is too hot, it burns the head. What I experience as an "opening" of the crown chakra doesn't seem to be dangerous, because I feel it as a "fresh fire" (like breathing the air of the mountains) opening all the little channels + central channel in the head, clearing the mind and giving bliss.
Hi Kadak:
Yes, ajna (third eye) does provide the necessary balance and regulation of ascending and descending energies, while opening the crown gradually. This is built into the spinal breathing pranayama technique we use. The excessive heat in kundalini awakening comes from too much energy moving before the nervous system has achieved adequate purification. Heat and many other kundalini symptoms are the "friction" of too much energy passing through not yet fully purified nerves. This can be caused by activating the crown too early, which draws up too much energy too soon -- a common problem in many kundalini energy oriented schools.
We see a lot of folks coming here from those approaches, and some spontaneous kundalini awakenings too. That is why you see so much kundalini remedy talk going on here. We are doing our best to help.
For those who have been using AYP from the start, the cases of energy excess seem to be fewer and less extreme, and we do have means for dealing with it, the most important being prudent "self-pacing" of practices to prevent things getting out of hand. It works pretty well -- finding a good balance between "enough" and "too much." 
If I understand, it appears in Tummo, energy is regulated by staying out of the lower centers instead. Interesting. How does that relate to tantric methods, dealing with sexuality, etc?
On cultivating the "clear light," take a look at deep meditation and see if it fits in. Lots of clear light to be found there.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2007 : 3:40:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Yes, ajna (third eye) does provide the necessary balance and regulation of ascending and descending energies, while opening the crown gradually.
That's really interesting, I'll try to see what it can bring in my practice.
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Heat and many other kundalini symptoms are the "friction" of too much energy passing through not yet fully purified nerves.
You're absolutely right. I've noticed that the chakras which I worked less upon are producing gross fire rather than subtle.
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If I understand, it appears in Tummo, energy is regulated by staying out of the lower centers instead. Interesting. How does that relate to tantric methods, dealing with sexuality, etc?
The sexuality comes very late in the tibetan tantric methods. Only when the kundalini is fully awakened and the deep sleep fully conscious. Its purpose is to create the "illusory body", which is indestructible. There is no death for someone who has it. Probably there is something like this in indian yogas.
For "normal" people like me, sexuality awakens inner fire, and the problem is very simple. Either this fire goes up in the central channel, and we can speak of "sacred sexuality", either it goes down outside of the central channel, and this is just normal sexuality. It is very difficult to have correct control of it. Usually, there is half inside, and half outside, which is not so good. That's why the lamas say to avoid it until total mastery of winds and channels.
Practicing tummo, the energy of the lower chakras is awakening little by little when everything is correct from navel to top. So I don't worry with it, everything will come in due time if it has to.
quote:
On cultivating the "clear light," take a look at deep meditation and see if it fits in. Lots of clear light to be found there.
Yes, I'll see the deep meditation parts, it will be interesting to see how the process is described and I'll probably find useful things.
Thank you for your comments. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2007 : 06:40:44 AM
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Hey, kadak, welcome to the forum.
quote:
The sexuality comes very late in the tibetan tantric methods. Only when the kundalini is fully awakened and the deep sleep fully conscious. Its purpose is to create the "illusory body", which is indestructible. There is no death for someone who has it. Probably there is something like this in indian yogas.
I've been in two states of conscious/deep sleep. One is that of hearing - an all harmonious vibration. The other of seeing - objects imbued with light (what I consider the experience of the Self completely separate from the body). Both were while in a very deep meditative state of consciousness, although fully aware. The hearing came first, the seeing/awareness years afterward. It's almost like a new developmental state of sense perception. Anyway, I was wondering the Tibetan view of the process?
Also, if you wouldn't mind if I pick your brain further (or anyone else, for that matter) I've had what are considered heart orgasms, when a teenager, and I remember using my breath to cause what felt like very cool water pooling to the heart center until a hardness was felt and then would quickly expel the breath until an intense heart explosion occurred (only way to describe it) and sometimes would have a simultaneous genital orgasm. I was wondering if you've heard of this type of experience?
Thank you:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on May 05 2007 08:20:27 AM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2007 : 09:55:45 AM
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Hi VIL
quote:
I've been in two states of conscious/deep sleep. One is that of hearing - an all harmonious vibration. The other of seeing - objects imbued with light (what I consider the experience of the Self completely separate from the body). Both were while in a very deep meditative state of consciousness, although fully aware. The hearing came first, the seeing/awareness years afterward. It's almost like a new developmental state of sense perception. Anyway, I was wondering the Tibetan view of the process?
I have often conscious sleep, but not deep sleep. In fact, what you describe can be close to the deep sleep, or not (for example it could be some kind of astral projection). But it is definitely not clear light of the deep sleep, because there are no phenomena at all in this state.
The only way to know how close you came to the conscious deep sleep are the signs. There are 7. The 4 gross signs are not so easy to see, but you couldn't have missed the subtle ones if you're able to enter consciously in deep sleep. They are : a white light, a red/orange light and a black light. These lights are very bright when experimented during the sleep.
quote:
Also, if you wouldn't mind if I pick your brain further (or anyone else, for that matter) I've had what are considered heart orgasms, when a teenager, and I remember using my breath to cause what felt like very cool water pooling to the heart center until a hardness was felt and then would quickly expel the breath until an intense heart explosion occurred (only way to describe it) and sometimes would have a simultaneous genital orgasm. I was wondering if you've heard of this type of experience?
I didn't experience quite the same thing. In fact, "orgasm" can happen in any chakra. The cool water seem to be some dripping white drop (which can be felt as "cold water"). But I don't understand what you call a "hardness". As for the breath, books say that expelling the breat is like shooting an arrow. In my case, it expands the bliss through the channels. But anyway I wouldn't advise to do it too quickly because I feel it could harm the channels . We must be gentle with our poor channels... |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2007 : 6:32:13 PM
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Thanks, kadak:
I was wondering if you had a site where I could read up more on the various light experiences, since I've never heard of them. Also, the water pooling around the heart was something that happened naturally, when a teenager, although I'm not sure of the actual mechanics. The feeling of "hardness" was almost like a condensing of the breath at the heart center until it produced what felt like a hardness or solidity, and once the breath was expelled, there was a heart orgasm.
quote:
kadak: But it is definitely not clear light of the deep sleep, because there are no phenomena at all in this state.
According to the Himalayan Masters, and from personal experience, once one reaches Yoga Nidra (the deep sleep state), the "M" of AUM is heard, until the gross vibration is incorportated within the bodies subtle centers. I think it is the Mandukya Upanishad that discusses this in detail.
http://www.swamij.com/om.htm#deepsleep
The clear light state seems similar to my visual experience of the self looking through the body, but I'm not sure if that is what you're talking about, since one would have to perceive the light:
I had to do an edit, since I realize that I called it a 'new developmental sense perception', (poor choice of words), since it isn't attached to the senses. I'm sure that's why there is confusion: 
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on May 05 2007 8:07:34 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2007 : 8:56:42 PM
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quote:
I was wondering if you had a site where I could read up more on the various light experiences, since I've never heard of them.
I don't know any site speaking of this because these teachings are considered "secret", but the most complete reference on the matter is definitely "Clear light of bliss". http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Light-B...p/0948006218
quote:
According to the Himalayan Masters, and from personal experience, once one reaches Yoga Nidra (the deep sleep state), the "M" of AUM is heard, until the gross vibration is incorportated within the bodies subtle centers. I think it is the Mandukya Upanishad that discusses this in detail.
http://www.swamij.com/om.htm#deepsleep
We have here a little terminology problem, because what tibetans call Clear light is called Turya on this site. This is the state where all appearances are dissolved, nothing remains. Of course it is more or less complete, there is the CL of waking state, CL of deep sleep, and CL of death. But the characteristics are the same, only the depth is different. Anyway, you see the 7 signs in any case. The signs will help you to see really where you are (especially the subtle ones), and it is quite possible you're not far from clear right, or maybe you already reached it. I have given more details here : http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2425
Here is a description of the process of death and CL of death :
http://www.dharmaling.org/component...ing/lang,en/
quote:
The clear light state seems similar to my visual experience of the self looking through the body, but I'm not sure if that is what you're talking about, since one would have to perceive the light
The term clear light is confusing, because there is no light at all... It is a complete darkness, but this darkness is clear by itself.
The light you see, I reminds me of "etheric vision", or some sense of sight that blind men can develop. Actually, some blind men can "see" through a new sense.
But maybe I did not understand what you say. At a deeper level, when clarity improves, one can actually see through matter (walls, stones etc), is it what you experiment ? |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2007 : 11:08:15 AM
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Thank you for the information, kadak:
I've done some research and have found that the secret of the "Clear Light", which you mention, is from The Tibetan Book of the Dead, more accurately called: Bardo Thodol or "Liberation through Hearing in the Intermediate State", whose title was based off of the Egyptian Book of the Dead - the original translation by W. Y. Evans Wentz. Here is an excerpt:
"When the expiration hath ceased, the vital-force will have sunk into the nerve-centre of Wisdom 1 and the Knower 2 will be experiencing the Clear Light of the natural condition 3. Then the vital force, being thrown backwards and flying downwards through the right and left nerves 4 the Intermediate State (Bardo) momentarily dawns."
The mention of the Sound of Reality (the Self):
"From the midst of that radiance, the natural sound of Reality, reverberating like a thousand thunders simultaneously sounding, will come. That is the natural sound of thine own real self. Be not daunted thereby, nor terrified, nor awed."
http://reluctant-messenger.com/Tibe...ns-Wentz.htm
"The Bardo Thodol actually differentiates the intermediate states between lives into three bardos (themselves further subdivided):
the chikhai bardo or "bardo of the moment of death"
the chonyid bardo or "bardo of the experiencing of reality"
the sidpa bardo or "bardo of rebirth".
The chikhai bardo features the experience of the "clear light of reality", or at least the nearest approximation to it of which one is spiritually capable.
The chonyid bardo features the experience of visions of various Buddha forms (or, again, the nearest approximations of which one is capable).
The sidpa bardo features karmically impelled hallucinations which eventually result in rebirth. (Typically imagery of men and women passionately entwined.)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol
Just be careful of various interpretations and translations out there:
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on May 06 2007 11:30:38 AM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2007 : 11:53:10 AM
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Yes, Bardo Thödol speaks about clear light of death. But there is a CL of waking state and a CL of deep sleep, which are similar but not as deep. This you probably won't find on the internet, but the book "Clear Light of Bliss" provides complete information.
As for the sound "reverberating like a thousand thunders simultaneously", it is called the sound of Dharmadattu, and if you read carefully the text you mentioned, it comes in the chönyid bardo (the 2nd one). What is called the Clear Light of Death, strictly speaking, comes in the chikhai bardo (the 1st one). So, the sound comes after the CL disappears. |
Edited by - kadak on May 06 2007 11:56:49 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2007 : 12:04:28 PM
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quote:
kadak: Yes, Bardo Thödol speaks about clear light of death. But there is a CL of waking state and a CL of deep sleep, which are similar but not as deep. This you probably won't find on the internet, but the book "Clear Light of Bliss" provides complete information.
As for the sound "reverberating like a thousand thunders simultaneously", it is called the sound of Dharmadattu, and if you read carefully the text you mentioned, it comes in the chönyid bardo (the 2nd one). What is called the Clear Light of Death, strictly speaking, comes in the chikhai bardo (the 1st one). So, the sound comes after the CL disappears.
Hey, kadak, the information you mentioned is based off of the Bardo Thodo and is readily available for an individual to ascertain freely and draw their own conclusions:
http://reluctant-messenger.com/Tibe...ns-Wentz.htm
Also, all one need do is look up Yoga Nidra to understand the deep sleep state. All is readily available online:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Nidra
VIL
P.S. Since you've mentioned this book numerous times, I was curious if you were the author or knew the author? |
Edited by - VIL on May 06 2007 12:10:09 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2007 : 2:42:22 PM
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Hi
much of my information doesn't come from the Bardo thödol, but from the 6 yogas of Naropa and other teachings, which are not much available, and not on the web.
No, I'm not the author of this book, nor do I know the author ! I'm very far of having the knowledge or authority to write such a book. In fact, I'm not even Kadampa (the lineage of the author) nor Kagyu (the Naropa lineage). |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2007 : 4:00:43 PM
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Fair enough, kadak:
VIL |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2007 : 10:18:01 AM
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Kadak, after this thread, I bought "Mahamudra-Tantra" and "clear light of bliss", both from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the information given are crazy. I never thought, that there is a book, which gives clear information about the very subtle processes until samadhi which relates to the clear light of bliss state. And the book goes even further, delivering the next four steps until you are permanently enlightened where any need for meditating, learning etc. falls apart. Its also very interesting, that he clearly says, when your body becomes immortal. The most amazing part, was that, where he talks about those thousand students, who followed the Mahamudra way and reached the endstate(of that system) beyond the first samadhistates within 3 years. All!
The information given fit perfectly to the whole picture, but are still not fully complete. C.W. Leadbeater from the white brotherhood gave some more information about the evolutionary development, but he does not give details about the practical part and says, that a guru should provide you with them. His initiator was Kuthumi and Maitreya, who you can find in the overall tibetan/buddha way.
But its hard to unite ayp with mahamudra tantra, as the meditational approach is very different. AYP is much easier, but perhaps not that effective, because visualizing changes with seeing after many months, perhaps years and then your overall technique becomes precise enough to make it really efficient and strong. Within the mahamudra system, you start right from the beginning with details within the central channel, the nadis, the chakras and with meditation over specific mindsets until you transcend them. It expands the "practice" time to the whole night, where you go on with your meditation. But it seems to be hard and complex for the beginner and binds more to a regilious way, where Buddha plays a big role.
But all in all, you come to the same experience of samadhi/clear light of bliss.
To clear some word differences: Those 5 winds are the 5 pranas: prana, apana, samana etc. The drops are red and white, relating to the blood and the sperm from the very subtle to the very physical aspect. The channels are the same as nadis and the knots in the chakras are the same too.
I did not want to say, that one is better than the other. More, that the overall picture with all its details is still missing. And its much more a big science, which will be known like biology, physics and co in the future and even taught in schools. Until that, we go the way we want, trusting on the experiences of realized ones and one day having our own revelations and realizations too.
When did you start with mahamudra tantra, kadak? Do you practice under the guidance of a guru or with the instructions of the book? If done correctly and steadily, it seems to be a fast way like kriya yoga, but also a harder and more complex one. |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2007 : 8:43:21 PM
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Hi Holy,
in my opinion, this book and AYP complete each other. From my understanding, AYP uses more of mudras, bandhas and detailed techniques, when mahamudra relies much on vase breathing (kumbakha). In tummo meditation, the core is vase breathing and accute concentration. AYP seems easier, and can help where concentration fails. I have spoken with several friends, everybody find it very difficult to concentrate during hours and hours on a tiny point which is supposed to be a "gate" of the central channel. There, I have found that AYP techniques can help, and I am beginning to use them. Because bliss opens the central channel, and AYP techniques are effective for bliss.
I started with tummo since 13 months, practicing 3-5 hours a day. My results are not overwhelming since I started from scratch, but at least I've had results. Because of karma resulting from past lives, I had very tight channels, and no technique was effective before I tried this tummo thing (I practiced vipassa, mantras, meditation, during 10 years, with no result). That's why I can tell it is effective. But it is not true that someone can reach last stages within 3 years. All the tibetan lamas are practicing tumo and more advanced techniques, and apparently, few of them reach the 3rd stage (which is illusory body). It you read carefully, this stage is equivalent to the 10th bhumi of the sutras, which is very high.
I am practicing within a lineage, but not exactly under the guidance of any guru, because guru do not guide easily people. I understood one day that I had to do my way myself, so I took the initiations and teachings, and now I am doing my way, probably as Yogani did with indian system. No tibetan lama will explain the whole thing to you, unless you're a tulku or at least a monk. If you're one of those small western folks who come to the teachings, you'll have to figure it out by yourself. They probably think that if someone is not able to find it by himself, it will be harmful to give it to him, because these techniques are too powerful. They were designed for people living under the direct watch of a guru, so that he can help if necessary.
By chance, there are people like Kelsang Gyatso who write useful books, and each new book reveals a different information, so, with much practice, and practicing friends, it is possible to make one's way. Many things I had to figure out by myself, I found in Yogani's lessons. The books give the mainlines, the practice and the benedictions of the lineage give what's missing. I'm rather confident, but it's likely I won't have enough time to go to the end of it. For example, Yogani's lesson seems to cover approximetely the tummo yoga, but don't seem to cover the further stages (clear light yoga), and that's normal. Who would understand ? How many people are conscious 24/24 ? I won't be before long and until know, I haven't met anbody who is, except tibetan masters of course.
(Yogani, I don't criticize your work, You're doing a great job and I'm grateful, I wish I could go with tibetan yoga as far as you did with indian yoga) |
Edited by - kadak on May 10 2007 9:15:20 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2007 : 04:12:15 AM
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| Most of the information of my post above come from the "Mahamudra Tantra" book. It gives an overall picture of the system, of people who reached this and that, of preperations to that path etc. Those thousands of people reached that illusory body state under the guidance of Je Tsongkhapa. Now I started to read the "clear light of bliss" book which seems to be the actual practice book. The one before explained the meditations just a little bit and focused more on the theory. The aim is to dissolve all the winds in the central channel and then go through those 8 signs until you reach samadhi/clear light of bliss. It's nice, that it goes even beyond that, but all in all, ayp is easier to integrate into every life. This way needs some more serious devotion to the path with much more bhakti and at best, if you are buddhist. Then Buddha fits perfectly into the meditations too. Otherwise, there can be a conflict with one's god-picture. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2007 : 07:23:07 AM
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Hi Kadak,
What a great thread, it's fantastic to see people discussing these more esoteric aspects of the path. Thanks for these contributions. Oh yea, and welcome to the forum .
Hi Holy,
Thanks for your wonderful posts. I also do Buddhist practices, and use visualizations, and I have been interested in the extent to which visualizations can be usefully integrated with AYP practices.
quote:
This way needs some more serious devotion to the path with much more bhakti and at best, if you are buddhist. Then Buddha fits perfectly into the meditations too. Otherwise, there can be a conflict with one's god-picture.
I have never used the image of the Buddha as part of any visualization. If the visualization of an enlightened (perfected) being is required as part of a practice then I visualize Jesus Christ. I also do this if a visualization meditation requires the visualization of one's guru, as I don't have one. 
Christi |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2007 : 3:52:04 PM
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Hi Holy,
dissolving the winds in the central channel doesn't require any buddhist visualisation. In every practice, there is the core of the practice, and other things wich are less necessary. You can devote your bhakti to god without needing a representation (then "god" will be your true nature) and meditate on the winds and channels, wich are not specifically buddhist... This channel are energetic facts, not imagination, and no fact is buddhist, or hinduist, or christian... For example Yogani's lesson keep just the facts, removing any folklore who could be related. This can be done with any yoga practice.
As for the everyday day practice, I am doing vase breathing all the day, there is no problem, and it doesn't involve any god picture !
Hi Holy,
what AYP calls sensation, tibetan yoga will call it visualization, but it is fundamentally the same. As I said above, channels and winds are facts. As for the deities, they can be useful to help finding the right sensations, and christian iconography is as good as any. |
Edited by - kadak on May 11 2007 3:56:28 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2007 : 08:06:19 AM
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Sure,
I did not want to say, that it's just for buddhists, but there are many preparational meditations within that "mahamudra-tantra" path, where you first call the lineage of masters of that system and get their special blessing that you succeed easily and fast on that way. The importance of that is mentioned many times. Without these blessings, it seems to be harder to get quick results, but sure, this again is based on your belief. If you believe or devote to your god and practice the core parts, like that tummo meditation, it should give the same results. I tried one round of that meditation, just to get an understanding of the method and instantly felt the fire at the navel.
All in all, the aim is to melt the white drop of the crown and the red drop of the navel within the immortal drop of the heart. The same I heard from Krishna in his talks to Arjuna. Bringing apana and samana to the heart and then the prana of the heart gets free, somthing like that :) Then all the winds dissolve in the central channel, you go through the 8 signs and reach clear light of bliss/samadhi. Then meditating over emptiness seems to lead to the next step.
Waht I did not like, is, that there is no routine within the system. In ayp, you know, sitting twice a day for deep meditation will bring you nice results. Within mahamudra, it seems that the more you put into it, the more you will get out of it. There is no guidance about when to do what or perhaps, this is delivered from a guru and within the book, you just find the techniques, one after the other, even that ones beyond samadhi.
Christi,
which ones do you practice besides ayp? |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2007 : 6:06:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Holy I tried one round of that meditation, just to get an understanding of the method and instantly felt the fire at the navel.
Sure ! With your AYP training, it must be easy.
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Waht I did not like, is, that there is no routine within the system. In ayp, you know, sitting twice a day for deep meditation will bring you nice results. Within mahamudra, it seems that the more you put into it, the more you will get out of it.
The book gives different basic steps, but I attended a retreat where the steps where different. Anyway that's not so important, because it is your practice which decide what you will do. One day you concentrate more on the fire, another day you concentrate more on the dripping of the white drop, or on the winds in the central channels... As for the time, it is usually much demanding. For example, Chagdud Rinpoche said that he spent 6 months on it, in a closed retreat, when he was young. In Tibet, there are tumo retreats, each year during the winter, you're supposed to practice 8 hours a day during 114 days, and then you go on the roof where it is very very cold with wet clothes... Our Gueshe did it 2 times. The most amazing thing he said is that they put a big pot of water on the roof of the temple and that it musn't freeze. During this time, the students are in the temple, not on the roof. He says "Normally it is impossible that a pot of water wouldn't freeze in tibet if you left it out at night, but if you do good tumo, it won't freeze". Anyway, I'm far from it, so I won't go there, or I would die on the roof... |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2007 : 08:12:28 AM
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Hi Holy
quote:
Christi,
which ones do you practice besides ayp?
I do the four mindfullness practices: mindfulness of the breath, mindfullness of the body, mindfullness of the contents of the mind, and mindfullness of mindfullness (or awareness of awareness). I also practice Metta Bhavana (the creation of love) and a series of visualization practices from the Mahayana tradition. But as I said, I adjust the visualizations to make them more meaningful for me, as I grew up in a Judeo-Christian country (if you can really call the UK a Judeo-Christian country ).
quote:
Sure,
I did not want to say, that it's just for buddhists, but there are many preparational meditations within that "mahamudra-tantra" path, where you first call the lineage of masters of that system and get their special blessing that you succeed easily and fast on that way. The importance of that is mentioned many times. Without these blessings, it seems to be harder to get quick results, but sure, this again is based on your belief. If you believe or devote to your god and practice the core parts, like that tummo meditation, it should give the same results.
I agree with you. It is my experience that with nearly all spiritual practices, if we do not feel comfortable with the parafanalia, and extras, then it is possible to work out what are the core tools being use and cut out the rest. The Buddha did this very successfully with the spiritual practices that were being taught during his time in India, and it is what Yogani is doing with Yoga.
And again I agree, as long as we realize what the purpose of the initiation (invocation) was then I we could substitute other practices to serve the same purpose. In this case it would be connecting with our own sense of the divine, and asking for protection and guidance.
I haven't done any of the practices that you are discussing here, but would be very interested to try.
quote:
All in all, the aim is to melt the white drop of the crown and the red drop of the navel within the immortal drop of the heart. The same I heard from Krishna in his talks to Arjuna. Bringing apana and samana to the heart and then the prana of the heart gets free, somthing like that :)
Is this from the BagavadGita? I tried to look it up but couldn't find anything.
Christi |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2007 : 07:58:32 AM
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Hi Christi,
it's possible that these words come from Patanjali and not from Krishna. I could not find the source, where I had read it, but I read it many many times. The first time I read it in Yogananda's autobiography where he explains the science of kriya yoga. But this again was a quotation from either Krishna, Babaji or Patanjali =P
Btw, interesting meditations, the "best" one of them seems to be: "awareness of awareness" :) |
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Kris
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2007 : 11:32:38 AM
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quote:
interesting meditations, the "best" one of them seems to be: "awareness of awareness" :)
Hi Christi,
I second Holy's sentiment. I used 'breath' until I got through first Jhana. Thereafter my meditation has remained mainly "awareness of awareness", although awareness of body and external sounds has helped along the way.
I'd just like to say what a fantastic thread this is. Very informative.
Kris |
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KoHsuan
Australia
5 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2007 : 10:58:23 PM
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Hi Kadak,
Reading your posts I figured out that doing Six Yogas..
I am trying to practice by myself, no teacher, books only...
Unfortunately I couldn't find any place on the net, forum, group etc .. dedicated Naropa practices especially tummo and Internal Heat meditation..
Do you know any? |
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