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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 09 2007 : 01:14:53 AM
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Hi Dave,
My experience of receiving shaktipat was pretty much identical to that of any of the kundalini experiences I've had - that's why I didn't see the need to attach some special significance to my teacher and, therefore, elevate his status to mythic proportions. It just intense energy flowing around and through me, kriyas (automatic movements), intense bliss and pleasure, etc.. However, I don't find repeating these experiences to be counter-productive - quite the opposite really. Every time I've done so I've found that another layer of hindrances has been melted away.
By self-initiate, I was referring to initiating one's self into a particular practice or object of meditation. I've often heard it asserted that one can only enter a certain practice, be it yantra, mantra, or whatever, through the grace of the guru. Well, entering yantra, mantra, or whatever, simply refers to being able to attain samadhi while using these objects. Once one is able to do so, then, in essence, one has successfully entered the object(s) and intitiated one's self into it.
As a bit of a footnote, I happen to come from a predominately Theravada Buddhism background - although, I never strictly adhered to it, and have studied in a number of other traditions, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, as well. And, in this partcular tradition, the guru is, generally, not given much special significance other then that of a learned friend. However, striving for one's self is given great emphasis. Theravada's ethos could be summed up as follows: "We, the Buddhas, merely point the way. You must do the work of liberating yourself."
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha |
Edited by - Nirodha on Apr 09 2007 05:03:28 AM |
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2007 : 01:59:59 AM
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Hi Cessation 
quote:
Originally posted by Nirodha
However, strifing for one's self is given great emphasis.
..or striving for one's non-self 
Be a lamp unto yourself 
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on Apr 09 2007 03:59:27 AM |
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shailesh kumar
India
2 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2007 : 08:29:28 AM
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Even ordinary things of the world can't be learnt without a teacher,
So Kabir says how will the mind find God without a Guru.
A Guru is a great help and guide on the spiritual path. Mantras can be chanted on one's own but it will not have the same powerful effect as when given by a self realized saint. A master enlivens a mantra with his spiritual energy making it "chaitanya"- alive. I have read great self-realized masters like Raman Maharshi, Swami Rama, Swami Chinmaya, Vivekananda and my own revered Gurudeva say that a mantra given by a self-realized master is like a wire connected to a live power source; even if the wire is thin it will bring electricity to your house. On the contrary no matter how thick a wire is, if it is not connected to a powerhouse it is useless.
The trouble with today's Kaliyuga is that lots of people who are incompetent have become gurus; diminishing the sanctity of the guru-disciple tradition which has been there from ancient times. Just because some gurus are incompetent does not mean that the guru tradition itself is invalid. Vande Krishnam Jagat Guru - God was the first Guru to humanity. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2007 : 12:56:19 PM
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Namaskars Shailesh,
I completey agree with your post and this is my experience also.
L&L
Dave |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2007 : 1:18:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
Namaskars Shailesh,
I completey agree with your post and this is my experience also.
L&L
Dave
I agree too, but how do we cover the world population of 6.5 billion people (and growing) with the venerable old guru system? It is, frankly, a bit petrified, and not yet living in the information age.
All that is good in the guru system, we need much more of that for everyone.
Clearly, something has to change.
The guru is in you. <-- more direct access to that One will help.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2007 : 1:38:19 PM
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Namaskars Yogani,
I agree with you also but 20 yrs ago we would not be conversing at all,and the information you are giving out would not be available.The point is there is room for the old and new and something to be learnt from both.Neither way is completely correct or incorrect.The new ways (with the help of technology) will spread the knowledge further and the old ways hopefully will restore some values to modern life.After all the traditional ways of respect and tolerance of ALL cultures is much needed in the world today.This is one of the most important teachings that Yoga promotes imho.
L&L
Dave |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2007 : 2:02:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by riptiz
The point is there is room for the old and new and something to be learnt from both.
Hi Dave:
Agreed absolutely. And each ought to keep prodding the other.
I am not anti-guru. I am pro-progress.
As the old saying goes: "Lead, follow, or get out of the way!"
For a bit of perspective, here is some history in an AYP lesson that discusses the progression of the eastern traditions coming west over more than a century, leading directly to the wonderful knowledge we are blessed to be sharing and utilizing today. So, there is no question that we are standing on the shoulders of giants -- and thousands of years of glorious spiritual discovery. That should never be forgotten.
On the other hand, we have to be honest and say to the traditions: "What have you been doing lately?"
Just as the traditions might say to upstarts like AYP: "Better not ignore all this experience."
We are doing the best we can, yes? 
The guru is in you.
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Nirodha
New Zealand
86 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2007 : 01:11:57 AM
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Hi all,
I'm not anti-guru either - I've had some rather good ones. However, I am anti-slavery - which is frequently promoted and disguised by nonsense assertions and devotional attitudes that do nothing more than mentally enslave the naive. This was the entire point of my postings on this thread.
I'd like to share something, from the Discourses of the Buddha, that I feel is very appropriate:
The criterion for rejection
"It is proper for you, Kalamas [a particular tribal group in India], to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them."
The criterion for acceptance
"Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them."
Excerpted from the Kalama Sutta (AN 3.65)- The Instruction to the Kalamas
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha
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Edited by - Nirodha on Apr 11 2007 01:30:19 AM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2007 : 12:53:11 PM
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Hi All:
Since I put my toe in here yesterday, maybe it would be good to go back and answer the original question.
"Must a mantra be given only by a guru?"
Well, based on the experiences of many, obviously not, but there may be an initial energy advantage in receiving guru initiation -- at least in the old days there was, when little else was available. It is changing, and the playing field is gradually becoming more level between "transmitted" mantras versus "shared" mantras (see below).
Once a guru initiation is done, it is up to the practitioner. The initial boost and lingering energy connection are a plus. But in the long run it is the aspirant's dedication to daily practice and the effectiveness of the method that will make the difference. It is always about the aspirant. It isn't about the guru. A true guru will be the first to say that, constantly reminding the aspirant to stay on task with the methods that lead to "self-realization." The goal is not "guru-realization."
There is a potential disadvantage to guru initiation that should not be ignored. That is the association with a fixed tradition, with fixed (locked in) methods, and little room for experimentation and discovery of improvements in practice. It has been the job of the traditions to preserve knowledge down through the centuries. And so they have, much to their credit. The problem is that no single tradition has been preserving the total knowledge of human spiritual transformation. There is a noticeable fragmentation of yogic knowledge spread around among the many traditions from which most of our gurus have come.
Tradition "A" is mainly meditation and samyama. Tradition "B" is mainly pranayama and hatha. Tradition "C" is mainly asanas. Tradition "D" is mainly non-dual inquiry. Tradition "E" is mainly bhakti. And it goes on and on. The walls between these highly-focused conservative approaches are quite high. So, when we receive the advantage of guru initiation, we also may find ourselves with the disadvantage of limited opportunity for exposure to all of the methods of yoga in a balanced way. This is especially true when vows of secrecy and loyalty are taken. It can be very limiting.
In the old days, this sort of guru/disciple exclusivity may have made perfect sense, but in the information age it is out of date, at least in the applied science oriented mass markets of the west. We all know of the abuses that have occurred with the guru system being applied in modern times. It is systemic, meaning there is a fundamental incompatibility between the method and the time in which it is being used.
So, change is in the air. It is happening (slooowly) within the traditions. And we also have upstarts moving in quickly to fill the void. AYP is one of many attempts to make spiritual knowledge transmission more open and effective in modern times, while reducing the risk of abuse that has been found lurking in the guru system. It is a shift to the methods of applied science and communications/distribution that take advantage of modern technology. It makes sense -- each generation is entitled to view applied knowledge through its own spyglass, and then to do its best to pass on all that is known to the next generation to look at through their spyglass, and so on...
As shailesh kumar said, we have to learn from someone. While the human nervous system in each of us is the source of all yogic knowledge, we still can benefit greatly from the accumulated knowledge that humanity has assembled on utilizing the mechanisms of spiritual transformation residing in each of us. We should continue to build on what is known, and pass it on as efficiently as possible.
But back to the original question ... if we are learning our mantra through a modern non-guru information system, is something lost? There is that magical energy connection that a guru can give us. What is it? And can we receive it by other means? This is the crux of the question.
There will always be bonafide living gurus, and we are blessed to have them. The energy and knowledge they share help us greatly to uplift ourselves, according to our own spiritual desire (bhakti). It can occur through a variety of means -- mantras, shaktipat, healings, behind the scenes sharing, etc. It is spiritual energy, and it flows in many ways to those who actively surrender to their highest ideal. There is a lot of energy flowing these days, and gurus are no longer the only source of it. They may not even be the primary source of it anymore. Though, still, a real guru who does not tie up his or her followers is a real treasure.
World consciousness is rising rapidly, and more and more spiritual energy is being transmitted through our collective opening. This is a major acceleration in human evolution that is occurring before our eyes. Knowledge that is transmitted through collective means may well someday meet or exceed what the single great guru can provide. Time will tell. The important thing to know is that it is happening, and it will continue to grow. So all is not lost anymore if the guru is not found in an individual person. It can also be found in forward-looking communities, and, most importantly, in ourselves.
See lesson 146 for a discussion on the expansion of energy transmission capability from the individual guru to occurring throughout the society as a whole: http://www.aypsite.org/146.html
Regarding mantra, there is the inherent vibration that is contained within the sound itself, which will provide for effective and balanced purification and opening in the nervous system, if used correctly in deep meditation. This has little to do with how the mantra is transmitted. There are thousands of mantras, and the discussion can be endless on this. In AYP, the selection of mantra and enhancements is based on a particular rationale, and the known causes and effects involved in using the syllables that make up the mantra.
Here are a few lessons that discuss the AYP mantra strategy:
Mantra Particulars: http://www.aypsite.org/59.html
Mantra Design 101: http://www.aypsite.org/188.html
Also see other lessons under "mantra" in the topic index: http://www.aypsite.org/TopicIndex.html
In the end, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. So eat! 
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2007 : 1:16:50 PM
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Really nice post Yogani - just relaxing to read... you need to add a word to the yogic terminology relating to the reception of good vibes from reading a really great www post
The questioning/logical part of my mind tho' was curious as to why you feel/believe that 'spritual energy is increasing' [to be clear I personally have no idea of whether its up down or sideways  ].
At a logical level one notes that there have always been folks saying that everything is going to the bad, things arent what they used to be etc.
But there have also been folks (esp. at the spiritual end) who say we are on a cusp of a major change.
Historically of course both have been proved literally wrong... progress is neither a straight line up or down.
Anyway just to emphasise not drilling you on this one - if its your belief thats cool - its more, not having a view of my own, I was wondering on what basis one even starts to formulate a view (apart from one's personal position on the pessimism-optimism spectrum).
peace & respect
Mike |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2007 : 2:10:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike
The questioning/logical part of my mind tho' was curious as to why you feel/believe that 'spritual energy is increasing' [to be clear I personally have no idea of whether its up down or sideways ].
Hi Mike:
To me it is about cause and effect.
It is an observable evolution (or revolution) of access to knowledge on the means of human spiritual transformation (practices). It began filtering over to the west over a century ago, and has been accelerating ever since. In the process, the knowledge is being revitalized in ways that have not happened in India and other parts of Asia, due to the conservative nature of the traditions there.
Millions more people are meditating around the world every year, so there are more results, more inner purification, and more energy flowing. Each individual can gauge it by their own inner openings. Take that and keep reproducing it across the world's population, and we have something remarkable going on.
It is about the numbers of people gaining access, which is why AYP is what it is -- an attempt to expand access to effective practices as much as possible. The more who are opening, the easier it is for others to open, and so on. That is the energy dynamic we can see occurring everywhere.
From an applied knowledge point of view, it is not unprecedented. It has happened in many fields. Faraday was playing around with the invisible forces of static electricity and magnets (spooky stuff in those days), and 150 years later we have electricity available for practical use everywhere, and nearly everyone has a cell phone in their pocket. The application of spiritual knowledge is traveling a similar route.
For those who have been engaged in spiritual practices for the past 30-40 years, the change in the life experience has been pretty dramatic, not only individually, but in the rising receptivity in people everywhere. There has been a lot of change. As Dave pointed out earlier, we are sharing and applying knowledge now that we could barely imagine only a few decades ago. What will it be like 20 years from now? 50 years from now? We'll see...
Looking at it as a practical refinement and worldwide distribution of knowledge puts it within a framework we can easily understand. This is what we have seen already in many other fields of knowledge. In yoga, we should keep going and see where it leads. The least we can do is make sure that everyone everywhere has access to useful knowledge on practices. Then it is up to them. Based on what we have seen going on so far, the prospects are pretty exciting. That is how I see it.
The guru is in you.
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2007 : 4:38:53 PM
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Thank you for sharing those thoughts Yogani ... as you say a lot has changed from when we were young.
Mike
ps when you've finished off the open-source Yoga project any chance of doing the same for Taoism ... I have always been frustrated with the difficulty of getting access to information about true deep Taoist methods that is 1% as good as the AYP project is re Yoga ...
pps or maybe you should have done Taoism first, picked up the Immortality then plenty of time for Yogic enlightement and the rest (open-source Sufi methods next? )
ppps [/dream-mode]  |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2007 : 07:29:39 AM
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Hi All
Yogani wrote:
quote:
So, when we receive the advantage of guru initiation, we also may find ourselves with the disadvantage of limited opportunity for exposure to all of the methods of yoga in a balanced way
Yes. The limits themselves obstruct the natural flow towards contact with the inner guru. That is why i love the simplicity of deep meditation. It is still a method, though....and any method is pr definition "dual". But: Deep meditation is the most methodless approach I know of. Much less method, even, than that of non-dual inquiry (which cannot be "done" without first being connected to ones own depth).
My experience is (and I never had a "live" initiation from any guru) that the almost 20 years of meditation , prior to the rise of Kundalini in the sushumna, is what made it possible for me to "survive" so long on my own. As awareness increases, life brings me multiple "gurus" (in the form of people, situations, crisis, sickness, books....anything really) - and whether I learn from them or not, always depend on me. Not on them. Their gift is the fact that they happen. The rest is up to me. It always works that way. I am seldom infatuated with the messenger. It is the message that attracts.* And there are so many precious messages already. They fit perfectly with different inner states. There are so many ways of saying ultimately the same thing, it is needed to be this way....so that many can receive. This forum, for one, is already spilling over with it. The participation that takes place here....is creating a field.....much stronger than earlier seen. It is becoming almost impossible not to be touched by it.
quote:
Knowledge that is transmitted through collective means may well someday meet or exceed what the single great guru can provide.
I am absolutely positive that it will. It is already happening. What is transmitted, after all, is a unanimous presence - ever expanding.
We are lucky to be here
PS
* Oh.....reading through....I saw this sentence. This coincides with what is actually happening in front of me right now. I will explain in another post elsewhere. I have been blind....the message is the messenger.
Here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2417 |
Edited by - Katrine on Apr 12 2007 09:06:28 AM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2007 : 08:00:20 AM
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quote:
Katrine: life brings me multiple "gurus" (in the form of people, situations, crisis, sickness, books....anything really) - and whether I learn from them or not, always depend on me.
Good post, Katrine, and that's how I look at it, as I have never followed a "guru" either or practiced a mantra for my Kundalini to awake, as it happened spontaneously. Although, in retrospect, and from comparison to subsequent experience/phenomenon, there was a definite connection to planetary proximity, as I later investigated and found that my Kundalini awoke when Mars was in opposition and closest to earth at the end of August, 2003. Actually, it was the closest that it has been for over sixty thousand years, give or take a millenium, LOL; and the last time the planet was that close to earth was during the Neanderthal Age. So, I'm hoping that once my transformation is complete I can, at the very least, nab a spot on the next Geico commercial: Anyway, that's why I'm interested in planetary cycles, since there is a definite correlation/affect on the body/spirit:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Apr 12 2007 08:05:23 AM |
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Mike
United Kingdom
77 Posts |
Posted - Apr 12 2007 : 08:38:03 AM
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Nice points Katrine - altho' if you are about to reinterpret them... maybe I can reserve the right to change my mind 
Mike
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Moderator note: The Buddhist portion of this post, and other posts, have been moved to here for better placement: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2421
Kindly continue the Yoga and Buddhism discussion there.
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Edited by - Mike on Apr 12 2007 09:04:33 AM |
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Mantra to be given only by a Guru?
