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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 11 2006 : 5:19:10 PM
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Hi Naz,
Thanks for the reply.
Your posts are always illuminating. I am sorry I am not an expert on astrology, but wanted to reply about this:
quote:
Now a few words I find timely in view of the many people here being interested in ‘enlightenment’ and ‘bliss’, as well as in ‘samadhi’ experience: In my native language the words ‘enlightenment’ and ‘education’ are very close etymologically. They are just two variations of the very same root. Actually ‘education’ in my tongue sounds like a slight variation of ‘enlightenment’. And that is very much reflective of the real situation. ‘Enlightenment’ is mostly referring to getting knowledge from within, while education is more applicable to getting it from external sources. The words are close and have much in common, as well as the processes they refer to. Many people interested in spiritual practices think for some reason that ‘enlightenment’ is something very ultimate and final, like getting the highest possible University degree. Well, it’s not quite the case. You can be more enlightened, and less enlightened. You can be enlightened in some fields, and not enlightened in the other ones. And there’s never a thing like final, ultimate, highest enlightenment. There’s always more to achieve, no matter at which level you currently are.
I find this quite confusing, as it does not fit in with my understanding from the study of scripture. You mentioned that you find Buddhism useful, so maybe I can use that language.
As I understand the Buddhist teachings, the word Nirvana does not mean enlightened. It actually means without light, or extinguished. It refers to the extinguishment of desire. In the scriptures, it explains that we are living in Samsara, a continual round of rebirth, according to the seeds of our past Karma. Once the last seed has been burnt up through purification, we are released from Samsara, and stand outside the system, in the state of Nirvana. Once in this state, we are no longer susceptible to the effects of any karma.
I agree with you that the process that we call enlightenment (in English) is a gradual evolution, where we become gradually more peaceful, bliss-filled, overflowing with love, non-egoic, non-judgemental, less condescending etc. But if we are to believe the teachings of the Buddha, then there is a time when we are no longer subjected to karma, and at that time, no longer need to take re-birth, either as a human, or a God. So presumably, one day we have not attained nirvana, the next we have.
This also indicates that we will not always be subjected to the effects of the planets and stars. I am not necessarily one to take the writings of Indian scripture as gospel, but I have never heard any Yogi of any repute, suggest that these teachings attributed to the Buddha, are actually not true.
quote:
Now a few words about Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus Christ etc. All the great prophets and founders of the biggest world religions known to the current civilization were humans, not Gods, not demi-Gods. They walked the earth with their feet and didn’t fly in the air. They were ‘enlightened’ to some level.
I agree with you that they were not Gods. I have heard that even the Gods are mortal, and eventually must die. And if they are to leave the realm of Samsara then they too must eventually come down to this realm and take a human birth in order to become liberated from the system.
p.s. The only other word that I have seen used that is translated as enlightenment (from Sanskrit/ Pali) is Moksha, which actually means liberation (as in from bondage).
L&L
Christi
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2006 : 5:40:11 PM
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I agree with you that the process that we call enlightenment (in English) is a gradual evolution, where we become gradually more peaceful, bliss-filled, overflowing with love, non-egoic, non-judgemental, less condescending etc. But if we are to believe the teachings of the Buddha, then there is a time when we are no longer subjected to karma, and at that time, no longer need to take re-birth, either as a human, or a God. So presumably, one day we have not attained nirvana, the next we have.
Haven't you solved the apparent inconsistency yourself Christi, when you pointed out that 'enlightenment' and 'nirvana' are not the same thing? In other words, (given that the Buddha's claims about nirvana are accurate, something I don't feel sure of), even after Nirvana is reached, it is possible to become more enlightened?
I do believe that the idea of absolute enlightenment is seriously misleading. It is indeed similar to a concept of 'totally educated', which does not make sense when education is understood.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 11 2006 5:42:02 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2006 : 7:39:30 PM
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Hi David
quote:
even after Nirvana is reached, it is possible to become more enlightened?
I can't answer that one... maybe someone else can  .
I was not suggesting that there is any inconsistency. Only that what we call "enlightenment" is not a direct translation of any Sanskrit word, but rather a bundle of things, that come up at advanced stages on the path. Different people mean different things when they use the term. But for some, it could include the attainment of a state of transcendental consciousness where time is transcended. As I understand things, time exists in some of the lower realms, but not in the higher realms. So when we are in that state (having transcended time), we wouldn't be "becoming more enlightened", because we wouldn't have time . Or rather, there wouldn't be (any) time. When everything is one, what changes? Of course, by that point, there wouldn't be much "we" left anyway. Only "I" 
But as I said, I am not actually qualified to talk about such states.
I was simply suggesting to Naz, that according to the Buddha's teachings, there is a state beyond birth and death (which happen in the mind continuously, as well as with physical bodies), and so also beyond karma, which means that this statement:
quote:
YOU WILL NEVER, NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BREAK OR IGNORE THE LAWS OF KARMA OF ALL THE LEVELS CURRENTLY IN PLACE. Whatever level of ‘samadhi’ you attain, you would not be allowed to break the astrological laws which rule your nativity
would simply be untrue.
Love and Light
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 11 2006 8:01:34 PM |
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 07:33:24 AM
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yoginstar: Thanks for correcting me. Yes, it is through breathing that the connection with the celestial energies finds its expression within the flow of time. Through changing the rhythm and pattern of your breath it is possible to activate different elements (energies) of your chart (that's how various kinds of pranayama work), and vice versa (when you activate certain energies, your pattern of breath changes, reflecting the pattern of energies activated in your chart). I was experimenting more with the pranayama at certain (different) stages of my evolution. My current conclusive view is that proper samyama is capable of providing all the effects I was able to achieve with pranayama, while additionally being incomparably more versatile, calling its results (including breath patterns) from within, and allowing to control and bring out the subtlest changes and effects based on the structure of the interface of celestial energy patterns. However, it is also my feeling that I’ll have to return to the subject of breath control and its implications at some more advanced stage of my development. I feel there’s more to it: things I am not ready to clearly define yet.
As to the moment from which the nativity should be calculated, it is from “the moment when a child’s energy system becomes independent and gets its first connection with the celestial bodies established in the given birth”. This was my original idea. Somehow this called to my mind the implication of the umbilical cord (the connection with the navel chakra was the vague idea behind). But after reconsideration awakened by your comment I have a feeling that the umbilical cord theory is wrong. First breath intake sounds much closer to reality and is confirmed by my experiences of connections between breathing patterns and activation of celestial energies. I also believe that human psyche would definitely be capable of functioning independently according to the astrological influences even if the umbilical cord would remain uncut.
In this connection one more thing could be of interest. Many times I came across the idea that I am not very happy with certain features of the natal chart I received in this birth and would be very eager to somehow change it the way I like. So, how to do it? The options I considered would be as follows:
* to die and be born again in another body;
* to die and come to life again in this body (clinical death);
* to go through the necessary energy experiences without fully leaving this body.
The last option means that you have to go through a kind of ‘unplugging’ and then be ‘plugged-in’ into the energy field of the very same 4-dimentional Universe you just got unplugged from (not incidentally getting into another one), while keeping within the reasonable limits of the timeline of your current body. “System reloaded” so to say. It is my vague feeling that this trick is accomplishable through more advanced stages of breath control. Hallucinatory drugs and perception shifters could be another option but I would not be inclined to go for that one, as the effects they bring are practically out of consistent conscious control. |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 09:25:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Naz
* to die and be born again in another body;
* to die and come to life again in this body (clinical death);
* to go through the necessary energy experiences without fully leaving this body.
* That's the problem with many people's concept about reincarnation:
just get rid of this life, there is always another chance 
* clinical death = trying to cheat  won't work
* go through the changes  , clear the obstructions in the body,
evolve spiritually and physically.
L&L
Wolfgang |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 10:49:17 AM
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Hello
Don't forget the path of acceptance. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 1:59:40 PM
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Thank you, Naz, for this discussion. I find it very interesting, although I have nothing to add since it is on a more advanced level than I am capable of following. I just find it fascinating and a sign to be open to that within 24 hours I read this very message in two different fora:
quote:
You can be more enlightened, and less enlightened. You can be enlightened in some fields, and not enlightened in the other ones. And there’s never a thing like final, ultimate, highest enlightenment. There’s always more to achieve, no matter at which level you currently are. The ancient Greek philosophers/seers used to say: the more you know, the more you don’t know. They also compared knowledge to an area within a circle, while the unknown was the area outside the circle. The greater is your circle, the greater would also be the border with the unknown…
The same example was given in a similar discussion in the other forum. I listen, wait and trust life will bring me the knowledge I need exactly when I need it.
Thank you, you make my circle bigger and show me I know less than before! =) |
Edited by - emc on Dec 12 2006 2:12:55 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 2:45:57 PM
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quote:
Naz:
* to die and be born again in another body;
* to die and come to life again in this body (clinical death);
* to go through the necessary energy experiences without fully leaving this body.
The last option means that you have to go through a kind of ‘unplugging’ and then be ‘plugged-in’ into the energy field of the very same 4-dimentional Universe you just got unplugged from (not incidentally getting into another one), while keeping within the reasonable limits of the timeline of your current body. “System reloaded” so to say. It is my vague feeling that this trick is accomplishable through more advanced stages of breath control. Hallucinatory drugs and perception shifters could be another option but I would not be inclined to go for that one, as the effects they bring are practically out of consistent conscious control.
Naz,
Maybe this information from Hermes [The Father of Astrology], a portion from The Emerald Tablets, will help you on your quest:
quote:
The Keys of Life and Death
...Know that the secret of life in Amenti
is the secret of restoring the balance of poles.
All that exists has form and is living
because of the Spirit of life in its poles.
See ye not that in Earth's heart
is the balance of all things that exist
and have being on its face?
The source of thy Spirit is drawn from Earth's heart,
for in thy form thou are one with the Earth
When thou hast learned to hold thine own balance,
then shalt thou draw on the balance of Earth.
Exist then shalt thou while Earth is existing,
changing in form, only when Earth, too, shalt change:
Tasting not of death, but one with this planet,
holding thy form till all pass away.
List ye, O man, whilst I give the secret so that
ye, too, shalt taste not of change.
One hour each day shalt thou lie
with thine head pointed to the
place of the positive pole (north).
One hour each day shalt thy head be
pointed to the place of the negative pole (south).
Whilst thy head is placed to the northward,
hold thou thy consciousness from the chest to the head.
And when thy head is placed southward,
hold thou thy thought from chest to the feet.
Hold thou in balance once in each seven,
and thy balance will retain the whole of its strength.
Aye, if thou be old, thy body will freshen
and thy strength will become as a youth's.
This is the secret known to the Masters
by which they hold off the fingers of Death.
Neglect not to follow the path I have shown,
for when thou hast passed beyond years
to a hundred to neglect
it will mean the coming of Death.
Hear ye, my words, and follow the pathway.
Keep thou thy balance and live on in life.
Hear ye, O man, and list to my voice.
List to the wisdom that gives thee of Death.
When at the end of thy work appointed,
thou may desire to pass from this life,
pass to the plane where the Suns of the Morning
live and have being as Children of Light.
Pass without pain and pass without sorrow
into the plane where is eternal Light.
First lie at rest with thine head to the eastward.
Fold thou thy hands at the Source of thy life (solar plexus).
Place thou thy consciousness in the life seat.
Whirl it and divide to north and to south.
Send thou the one out toward the northward.
Send thou the other out to the south.
Relax thou their hold upon thy being.
Forth from they form will thy silver spark fly,
upward and onward to the Sun of the morning,
blending with Light, at one with its source.
There it shall flame till desire shall be created.
Then shall return to a place in a form.
Know ye, O men, that thus pass the great Souls,
changing at will from life unto life.
Thus ever passes the Avatar,
willing his Death as he wills his own life.
List ye, O man, drink of my wisdom.
Learn ye the secret that is Master of Time.
Learn ye how those ye call Masters are
able to remember the lives of the past.
Great is the secret yet easy to master,
giving to thee the mastery of time.
When upon thee death fast approaches,
fear not but know ye are master of Death.
Relax thy body, resist not with tension.
Place in thy heart the flame of thy Soul.
Swiftly then sweep it to the seat of the triangle.
Hold for a moment, then move to the goal.
This, thy goal, is the place between thine eyebrows,
the place where the memory of life must hold sway.
Hold thou thy flame here in thy brain-seat
until the fingers of Death grasp thy Soul.
Then as thou pass through the state of transition,
surely the memories of life shall pass, too.
Then shalt the past be as one with the present.
Then shall the memory of all be retained.
Free shalt thou be from all retrogression.
The things of the past shall live in today.
http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald13bw.html
Complete Index:
http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald.html
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 12 2006 2:47:32 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 3:45:35 PM
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Namaste VIL:
Good post!  And thanks for the links. Very interesting.
Hari OM!
Doc |
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 4:27:37 PM
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Dear Naz,
thanks for your response and I am happy that you agree to the first breath as the real start, since I consider you to be a Yogi (something I am only aspiring towards to
As to changing birthpatterns - I work from the philosophy that each pattern is not only choosen by our own soul, or in accordance with it, but that we can uplift each single pattern using a different perspective on it, we are not bound by he negative impact it has had in history. Some patterns are very tough. Each individual birthchart consists of the entire 12 zodiac signs, each degree in it has been effected by all of humanity during our entire evolution, we always also partake of the history of mankind. Meaning, if we really manage to uplift even a single zodiacal degree/planetary placement for ourselves, we do so for the entire human race as since the moment we have uniquely contributed to the upliftment of things in our own chart the potential is there for everyone (morphogenetic field theory/ or akashic record) In this sense your work on astrological samyama is a responsible thing for the benefit of the energies of the planets used by everyone on the planet so to speak.
My samyama experience is very little as mentioned before, I am finding it very subtle and energetically not subtle at all but I haven't a clue whether I am doing it right, it feels oke though:-) I dont physically work with astral or astrological energies such as is done in India with various rituals or such as you are proposing, for me astrology is a language for the best use of timing promoting awareness, it is second best to the final road of finding God, and for some it leads into it as it has done for me. In my current life God has made it abundantly clear to me (and all the other circumstances in my life with Him that I cant renounce everything and devote my self solely to the monastic life or something, it is my karma to do astrology, and now I do it with much pleasure so now it is my dharma... It ties in beautifuly with the AYP practices... there is meditation, and there is activity, so the astrology for me is the activity (and cleaning the dishes of course, and what else:-) , but I am not mixing them up so much, i.e. doing astrology as part of a practice. But I wish you a speedy journey of discovery!
Best! |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4380 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 5:46:19 PM
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Hi Naz,
quote:
In this connection one more thing could be of interest. Many times I came across the idea that I am not very happy with certain features of the natal chart I received in this birth and would be very eager to somehow change it the way I like. So, how to do it? The options I considered would be as follows:
* to die and be born again in another body;
* to die and come to life again in this body (clinical death);
* to go through the necessary energy experiences without fully leaving this body.
The last option means that you have to go through a kind of ‘unplugging’ and then be ‘plugged-in’ into the energy field of the very same 4-dimentional Universe you just got unplugged from (not incidentally getting into another one), while keeping within the reasonable limits of the timeline of your current body. “System reloaded” so to say. It is my vague feeling that this trick is accomplishable through more advanced stages of breath control.
If you want to change your natal chart, then any of these three methods could work. The first one, to die and be born again in another body, would be the most certain to work. However, it comes with some massive drawbacks. These are the drawbacks that I know about:
1. When we take a new birth, it is not a random process, and nor do we get to choose the natal chart that we want. We will be drawn to a particular birth depending on the specific energy vibrations of our soul at the time of death. This means that any problems that we are experiencing due to particular aspects of our chart in this lifetime, could simply be reproduced in a similar pattern in the next.
2. The act of taking our own life is a massive act of violence against oneself, both physically and mentally. This act has karmic repercussions in our energy system, and will affect our future births (including our natal charts). Some say that it can take many lifetimes to work out the karmic consequences of an act of suicide.
quote:
to die and come to life again in this body (clinical death);
This option sounds more fruitful, although I don't know if it would work. As I am sure you are aware, there are states of absorption where the consciousness leaves the physical body, and the physical body assumes a corpse-like condition. Breathing stops, the heart beat stops, and the body becomes completely inert. In this state the Yogi experiences the entire universe as like a speck of light (so my mate told me ). Then, some time later (and it can be quite a while), the consciousness returns to the body, and everything works again. So in order for your idea to work, the return would have to constitute a new birth, effectively, with a new natal chart. Obviously I haven’t done this, so I can't say if it would work or not. But I have my doubts, simply because the astrologers of India, when they are calculating the natal charts of enlightened beings, use the time and place of their birth for the calculations, and not the time and place of their most recent entry into the death state, which is what you would assume they would use if this did work.
quote:
to go through the necessary energy experiences without fully leaving this body.
This sounds like the best bet to me. I say this, not from any knowledge of astrology, but simply because in all the vedas, or upanishads, or any of the other volumes of Indian spiritual texts, I have never seen any reference to the fact that human spiritual transformation into divine consciousness is at any point limited by an individual human's relationship with the celestial bodies. I think this is quite telling, because the people who somehow became illuminated with incredible spiritual knowledge in India several thousand years ago, and who wrote the scriptures, are the same people who somehow became illuminated with incredible astrological knowledge in India, several thousand years ago. So presumably, if there were this incredibly limiting factor in the process of the transformation of human consciousness, they would have mentioned it.
So I would go with option C as your best bet.
Option B could be quite interesting too.
Love and Light
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 12 2006 5:57:21 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 6:51:43 PM
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I think that it's important to remember that the Universe is contained within the body and that there are Laws that govern the physical universe and that planetary energy does not control the person, nor does birth/natal charts/alignments, but are gross forms of matter of an already perfect arrangement contained within the human system - as attested by all ancient spiritual traditions - By which there are means whereby we can understand/use these laws for the upliftment/betterment for all of mankind, not for the sole individual.
And so this wisdom remains hidden from the ignorant, until the person is pure of heart - self-less. Since the Sun shines down on both the fool and the wise and does not distinguish one from the other, so is God's Way of bestowing His blessings on all people - but not the sole individual. And so we learn this hidden secret through detachment, renunciation or through various teachings, practices.
With that said, you could look at the earth, the air, water and fire and realize that all of the planets contain these things, but the body contains these also, but in perfect order. We could say that this planet exist externally, which is true and does possess it's own energy, but then you could realize that the location of this energy within the body.
For example, some say in order to garner the ability to travel through physical time, it would be necessary to harness the gravitational pull of a black hole, or zero gravity. But if we looked closely we could realize that we have the zero point gravity already within the body, in the form of a void.
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 12 2006 8:23:13 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 7:09:44 PM
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Hi All:
While karma is going to be flowing no matter what, our nervous system will always be the primary vehicle for the expression of karma, and that expression can be greatly altered by our spiritual practices and the resulting rise in our divine inner condition.
For example, if the stars have had us on course to be run over by an armored truck at a certain point in our life, then perhaps after a few years of deep meditation and other yoga practices, the truck would miss us, the back door would fly open, and all the money would fall out at our feet. Well, not a very good example, but you get the idea.
Karma and astrological influences will express in our life according to our spiritual condition, not according to any by-rote formula. One person's bane will be another's boon, even when the influences are exactly the same. We cannot change it significantly by changing our outer circumstances -- our incarnation, natal chart, or whatever. Wherever we end up, we will only pick up where we left off with our spiritual evolution.
However, we can vastly improve the outcome of all influences in our life by changing our inner spiritual condition, which can be addressed with effective yoga practices right here, right now. No need to be throwing the dice when we have a sure thing in hand. The nervous system we are sitting in right now is the doorway to the infinite!
The guru is in you.
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2006 : 9:24:20 PM
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How very true! There is NO substitute for a well grounded Sadhana.
And yet, in every generation of practitioners there are certain individuals who seek 'Magical Incantations', 'Secret Esoteric Knowledge', 'Astrological Cures', 'Occult Formulas', or 'Samadhi Shortcuts'. They are convinced that such things are the keys to accelerated development and attainment, and thus invest far more time and effort in the pursuit of deluded imaginations than they do in pursuing historically proven methods of Sadhana. 
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!  Nothing beats a consistent and serious Sadhana!
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Dec 12 2006 9:28:29 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 06:29:53 AM
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Recently I started an AYP group meditation and the lady that was my first contact told me the other night that she has been working on meditations with the celestial bodies and ascended masters etc.
She said that when I was explaining about the AYP system she realised this was what she had been looking for. She knew that in order to connect properly with the other stuff is was necessary to first be connected to the Earth’s energies.
We had some discussion about astrology and she gave me a cd to try, which involved connecting with the energy of Sirius. This was all done through the crown and although I fell asleep duing the meditation, when I woke up my crown was open like a large dish surrounded by a ring of energy and with a feeling of being suspended from this ring.
Whilst this experience was nice, it does very much point to a danger, particularly when one is using such a powerful system as AYP. The danger being the premature opening of the crown associated with strong kundalini currents.
From as astrological point of view then, it might be fair to say that AYP is a system that will connect us with the Earth’s energies.
Being connected to Mother Earth is the foundation for everything else, it is our Mother planet and the one that affects us most –it is us.
So I completely concur with Yogani and Doc that the concrete daily practice of AYP or other solid practice is where it’s at. In particular I would point to the precaution of not going near the crown.
This has raised a question for me with my group meditations which I have posed in the Events, Classes and Retreats forum.
Louis
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Edited by - Sparkle on Dec 13 2006 10:30:07 AM |
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Athma_Shakti
India
81 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 07:48:33 AM
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This is a nice thread full of good posts and wonderful thoughts
Let me share some of my thoughts:
God has given perfect freedom to everyone
I can fly over mountains and rivers in my dreams :). But when my mind is restless, I can’t do that. So it’s up to us how we utilize it.
God is pure Love(ultimate attraction force), Order of the creation
Some people even after reading about Yoga and God still they are far away, they are not interested. What’s holding them? Karma?
God is Simple and Complex
God is simple for Innocent ones. A Yogi may pass through different stages and years of effort for Enlightenment.
God likes everyone, he is always with us. Can we feel his presence?
When we are in deep meditation, where are we? where there is only pure silence, pure joy.
God is a Mystery
Materials things (body) are affected by karma (changes) "design"ed by God and not the consciousness.
God is Infinite and Beyond
The one who is “allowing” is the one who gets “restricted”.
God is our higher self
An Avatar attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi unaffected by karma
God is Intelligent Divine Being
Astrology is a program or art, which contains complex calculations to extract an event or an occurrence from a huge program or a design of God, that huge program contains unimaginable calculations created by God.
Everything in God’s creation is very important, unique and has its own specialty, honour and respectable for its existence
God cannot be described or understood. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 07:52:53 AM
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quote:
Doc: And yet, in every generation of practitioners there are certain individuals who seek 'Magical Incantations', 'Secret Esoteric Knowledge', 'Astrological Cures', 'Occult Formulas', or 'Samadhi Shortcuts'. They are convinced that such things are the keys to accelerated development and attainment, and thus invest far more time and effort in the pursuit of deluded imaginations than they do in pursuing historically proven methods of Sadhana. ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES! Nothing beats a consistent and serious Sadhana!
I think if one reads any of the tablets from Hermes, they will realize that His Teachings coincide with all of the Spiritual Traditions and practices whose goals are to lead an individual to Prema or Moksha - especially the knowledge that I listed - which leads one beyond Samsara; just as there are variants of Sadhana within the Yoga and Buddhist Traditions, one not being superior to another. Hermes was well aware of the body, as it relates to unfoldment and spiritual liberation, as attested by his mention of the ajna chakra [third-eye]:
quote:
Hermes: Hold for a moment, then move to the goal.
This, thy goal, is the place between thine eyebrows,
That said, a "Magical Incantation" can wield just as much power as a mantra. Even in the Kabbalah Tradition, simply viewing or vocalizing the 72 Names of God Holds special spiritual significance; and there are many "Occult Formulas" that are just as effective as any meditative practice, mantra, etc. It's people who make theurgy magical.
I would also like to say that the reason that many people have a problem with the word "Alchemy" or "Occult" is due to the secrecy surrounding esoteric knowledge throughout history. And it's people who have made these terms synonymous with something mysterious, evil, superstitious, etc. Although, if one researches these ancient esoteric traditions, they'll realize that they are in line with all deeper spiritual knowledge's.
Remember, it was Hermes, with the winged hat, who wielded the caldeus [Kundalini], made popular by FTD and the AMA:
As far as History goes, I doubt there is any question to the validity of Hermes Teachings and His overwhelming contribution to mankind - surpassing any Spiritual Tradition, Practice, Etc., that I'm aware of - But again, it's not about comparing one to the other -since all are wonderful and for the benefit of all.
I quoted you, Doc, but it's not directed at you personally. I just wanted others to realize where many misconceptions arise concerning the above mentioned blanket statement concerning secret esoteric knowledge and terminology, not that you harber bias toward one tradition over another - as I'm sure you realize - it's not the Teachings of any Tradition, but literal interpretation that creates problems.
VIL
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Edited by - VIL on Dec 13 2006 4:13:37 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 1:17:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL:
I quoted you, Doc, but it's not directed at you personally. I just wanted others to realize where many misconceptions arise concerning the above mentioned blanket statement concerning secret esoteric knowledge and terminology, not that you harber bias toward one tradition over another - as I'm sure you realize - it's not the Teachings of any Tradition, but literal interpretation that creates problems. VIL
Not a problem, VIL! I didn't assume your comments were directed at me personally. And you are correct in perceiving that I harbor no bias toward one tradition over another. In fact, I have personally investigated ALL of the things I listed as examples, and have even been Initiated into a few Traditions which employ such things as part of the standard practices.
My post was not intended to say that there is anything inherently wrong with 'Secret Mantrams' and 'Magical Incantations' or 'Esoteric Occult Knowledge' of any kind from any Tradition or School. I merely wished to point out such things as examples of 'short-cuts' that some people believe can be exploited out-of-context from the sources for some personal advantage. Not only is this generally not true, but it can be quite dangerous spiritually and energetically without the normal safeguards that the source Traditions incorporate in their system of practices!
So in a sense, my saying "There is NO substitute for a well grounded Sadhana"...applies equally to the sytematic practice of ANY Tradition according to its own established guidelines and recommendations.
Hari OM!
Doc |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2006 : 3:23:37 PM
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Well said, Doc:
VIL |
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2006 : 5:47:10 PM
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I see my humble messages became one of the most visited threads of this sub-forum.
I am very much honored by such an interest. I am also very grateful to everyone participating in this discussion, as they are the ones who make this thread interesting.
This will be short as I am busy in the other areas, sorry again for being not able to personally reply every point raised by the participants of this discussion. There are many of such worthwhile points. Thank you for expressing them. Please do participate. I read everything, and I hope many others read your messages as well. Your every message, if expressed openheartedly and with an intention of attaining higher wisdom and understanding of life principles, is undoubtedly a step towards these higher goals. It is in this life (here and now) that you have an opportunity to openly express and review yourself. Do not neglect this chance. But also forget not to meditate, contemplate and reevaluate your own deeds and words. Before you say something, the idea (question) must become ripe in your mind. Then it is the time to taste the fruit.
A few words to add to my previous message: In that message I touched a number of issues which are currently not very clear for me and are the front-side subject of the ongoing research. I do not consider myself to be very advanced in the pranayama techniques and here I would greatly appreciate the input and support of an experienced hatha yogi. While, as I mentioned, I did practice various pranayama techniques on different stages of my spiritual quest, and being able to distinguish (and control) the breath patterns and connect them to the energy experience, I’ve never (at least as far as my consistent memories of this lifetime reach) succeeded to suspend the breathing, to stop the heartbeat and to leave the body functions, being consciously active on the soul plane. The latter being claimed to be attainable through advanced hatha yoga practices and being claimed to have been attained by numerous hatha yogis, I’ve never been lucky enough to personally meet a living person capable of accomplishing this. In my current understanding the above claims are based on real possibilities and are pointing to an option truly available to humans.
In as far as the options I mentioned are concerned, they all must be taken into account for a comprehensive review of the subject being questioned and researched.
“to die and be born again in another body” does not necessarily imply my intention to commit a suicide. Within a review of the possible ways of changing the natal chart I include this into theoretical consideration. The sub-options may include:
* leaving the body at will and choosing another birth at will;
* natural death (sickness, old age, being unable to handle the growing energy disbalance);
* death by accident (that one is actually always caused by energy influences dependent on your own natal chart and/or the chart of a person coming into karmic relationship with you, but if we are unable to discriminate and prevent the impending evil, let’s classify this as ‘accident’);
* and finally – suicide, which may further be divided into many subcategories – you would probably admit that a person committing suicide out of depression or being unable to handle hardships of life circumstances and a person willingly sacrificing his/her life to attain some higher goal (that depending on the circumstances might vary – saving someone else’s life, or fighting for the good cause, or performing religious/traditional act of suicide, as, for instance, the wives of some Hindus were famous for throwing themselves into the burial fire of their dispatched husbands) are very different in their motivation, psyche condition/level, and, accordingly, in the result their act of suicide would bring...
I will not go here into the detailed classification of the ways and possibilities related to the ‘clinical death’ option, or dying and coming to life again in the same body, but they are ramified and rich beyond your first and second thought, ranging from the darkest to the most sublime and light-filled, interlacing/overlapping with the connected phenomena and leaving mysteries to puzzle over.
Now coming back to the issue of changing one’s natal chart: I’ve been eager to change mine many times. And I see no inconsistency here whatsoever. Changing your chart does not change your karma. And vice versa – if your karma is changed, that would not necessarily be directly reflected in your chart (your karma changes very significantly during one earth life, and even within just a few years, BTW). Your chart is an interface through which your karma is expressed in this lifetime. It can be used in many ways. My experience shows that ordinary people are actually using only a very small fraction of the options and possibilities inherent in their charts. So, while researching those different options, I came many times across an idea that I would be happy to change some features of my chart. I really don’t know if the clinical death would change one’s chart, as I’ve never been able to check it, but from my current point of view the chances are high that this is possible. If I had personal relationship with a person before and after clinical death, I would be able to spot the difference, as I am able to experience the energy currents arising when certain features of one’s chart are activated. But, again, by now I haven’t been lucky enough to personally know and trace the energy of such a person. I don’t have clear experiences with the dead souls, only with the living ones – with those whose attention is connected to mine via natural karmic relationship. (Here another interesting point is that I am able to control the direction of my energy vision and there was a time when I tried to intentionally aim it to certain persons/areas; my experiences were interesting, but I also found after some time that they distract me from my true spiritual path; since many years I do my best to let God direct my attention and vision to the persons and areas which are to be taken care of primarily in view of my evolution, and not in view of finding new attractive and colorful toys to play with. The first (evolution) not necessarily being bereft of the second (attractive and colourful toys), but not the other way round.)
So, for all the many times I was eagerly focused on the idea of finding the way to change my original chart, I eventually failed so far (maybe suicide the bad way would work, but I do not consider that to be an acceptable option – Christi is right to say that such a deed is an act of extreme self-violence; that is also an illegal shortcut on one’s spiritual path, and, as Wolfgang promptly mentioned: cheating does not work here – the negative consequences would be sure to come, while any positive insight received in between the births would very likely be lost in the turmoil of taking another birth). Nevertheless, these failures made me search for the ways to utilize the possibilities of my current chart more extensively, and I was lucky to find a lot of new ways and tricks to fix the things that are not very auspicious in my current chart. Such ways and tricks are available for everyone. They provide a powerful instrument to manipulate the unfolding of your karma, and, as Yogani insightfully mentioned in his last message, they can become one’s natural God-given gift through the proper spiritual practice.
Speaking of Yogani, here I’d like to say, that undoubtedly it is much better to do Yoga the way Yogani (or Mahesh) teaches than not do it at all. It is a great accomplishment and blessing of those who teach Yoga and meditation nowadays that they are able to find the ways to involve the fallen public of this planet into spiritual practices. And, in this context, I’d also like to mention, that even though I disagree with many aspects of the teachings I learned the meditation and Samyama techniques from, I do consider these techniques the most valuable things I received in this life and I am always deeply thankful to those who made efforts to teach them to other people and were the reason for me to apprehend these techniques.
Yet, I see great need of serious revisions of the theoretical and practical aspects of both meditation and Samyama techniques as taught by Mahesh and Yogani. Yogani’s rendering is more open and flexible, and it would be a better platform for the potential revisions. There are numerous phenomena directly related to these techniques which can not be competently handled without the natal chart based consideration of the energy system of the human in question. I see this could be a challenge beyond the possibilities of Yogani, who is familiar neither with astrology nor with the phenomena I am speaking of. However, Yogani is capable of prompt assimilation of knowledge formulated by another person (that is one of the strong features of his dominant energy, which is Mercury). As the phenomena I’d like to throw some light on based on my experience and understanding are caused by samyama and should be reviewed in connection with the samyama, I find the AYP platform the most suitable ground for sawing the seeds of this knowledge. If not picked up by the AYP compiler (Yogani) or current practitioners, this knowledge would remain as an independent part available to the one who seeks.
Now I have to finish this message.
These are the further points I have on my mind, which could be addressed in the next messages:
* connection of the human energy system and human natal chart with the Earth energy;
* meditation and Samyama – differences and similarities, connections of one to the other, effects and differences in effects depending on the mode of operation of one’s mind (material goals’ oriented or attainment of higher wisdom oriented);
* reading of the signs, learning to listen to the messages of higher wisdom. |
Edited by - Naz on Dec 22 2006 6:03:14 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 22 2006 : 7:01:23 PM
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Hey, Naz, maybe investigating how you can get to the seed state [samskaras] of all that Karma will be beneficial:
quote:
Yoga Nidra means Yogic Sleep. It is a state of conscious Deep Sleep. In Meditation, you remain in the Waking state of consciousness, and gently focus the mind, while allowing thought patterns, emotions, sensations, and images to arise and go on. However, in Yoga Nidra, you leave the Waking state, go past the Dreaming state, and go to Deep Sleep, yet remain awake. Yoga Nidra is a state that is very relaxing, but is also used by Yogis to purify the Samskaras, the deep impressions that are the driving force behind Karma (See Karma article).
Childhood trauma, past life impressions, etc...
You can also investigate Samadhi, in relation to object absorption. [Your mention of the ability to stop the heart beat]. I have done this, even before I knew what it was; and then spoke to a Sufi, on the phone, and a Yogi, on the Internet, because I thought I was going mad when my Kundalini Awoke. I also thought that I was special or had an ability that few had. Which was true, in a sense; but the Yogi brought it all into perspective when he said, "Watch what you eat". Huh? What? That's it? LOLOLOLOLOLOL...
http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-30406.htm
VIL
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - Dec 25 2006 : 1:41:56 PM
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* Merry Christmas to everyone! *
May the New Year bring you lots of happiness, prosperity, and, of course, bliss and Divine Wisdom!
VIL: I’m not very good in conscious dreaming and deep sleep, though I’ve tried various things from this area. I agree with you that deep sleep (whether conscious or not) is very relaxing and required both by Yogis and everyone else. Sometimes I’m really not getting enough of it. My Internet rendezvous are often taking my late evening hours and I occasionally happen to feel sleepy by that time. Sorry, if some of material I present is not clear and structured enough because of that.
Your indigestions (on physical, intellectual and spiritual planes) are caused by very poor level of Mars and Sun energy in your pattern. If you learn to strengthen them properly, you would not get those problems any more. Both the very food we eat and the way it is being digested is directly dependent on our energy pattern. The pattern affects both the conscious/unconscious choices we make, the so called ‘fate’, or ‘what life brings you’, and also how we later digest the material we devour.
The people you contacted (Swamis, Yogis, Sufis etc.) were probably not very competent. If they advice you to watch what you eat without changing your inner disposition that would hardly bring you any real progress. Here a bit modified words of Mahesh are very suitable: “Only by changing the root would you really change the fruit”. The rest is just playing around with the same old pair of dice… By the way, the level and type of people we get to contact is also directly dependent on both our karma and the energy pattern we are activating in this lifetime. |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 25 2006 : 3:54:53 PM
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Naz,
The wisdom from the Yogi to, "watch what you eat" had little to do with incompetency, ignorance or focusing only on the physical aspect of the mind/body connection; but was a way of humbly grounding a fragile person, who's Kundalini had just awoke, without any preparatory practices.
quote:
Mahesh are very suitable: “Only by changing the root would you really change the fruit”.
The "root" that Mahesh is speaking about is Yoga Nidra, and it is not merely a relaxation technique. This is where the latent, negative, child-hood, or Karmic, impressions are stored in the formless state. This is the root. This is what causes a person's fears and predisposition on a subconscious level , [samskaras], which affects a persons behavior whether conscious or not. It's also likened to the deepest part of the ocean. This is the true root that changes the fruit.
And Merry Christmas to you and to all:
VIL |
Edited by - VIL on Dec 25 2006 6:23:48 PM |
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2006 : 12:30:05 PM
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In this message I’d like to address very shortly a few points which came up in the discussion above. From the feedback and questions I see (I have to repeat myself) the community here is not ready for the advanced discussion of the topics related to Samyama with stellar bodies. The basic discrimination ability and underlying experience is missing. The discussion goes around very general theoretical material, which (as for any general theory) is true and applicable for a very broad range of stages of spiritual evolution. The comparison I’d like to bring forward here is: you can live and have bliss, spiritual evolution and many stages of enlightenment without even knowing how to read and write, less speaking of the knowledge of advanced mathematical calculations, or other matters studied in high school. Astrology and Samyama with stellar bodies might be likened to the more advanced and particular matters related to the energy experience. Of course, you can be illiterate and still have a great personality, all the bliss and happiness, and all the good things to be received from God. But literacy should not be ignored by those who wish to evolve further in the particular areas.
* Samskaras express themselves through your astrological pattern, in accordance with direction of your intention, or will power. The ‘burning of seeds of karma’, referred to in many spiritual traditions, does not mean the annihilation of samskaras. It means that you get a contemplative view of them, rather than being pushed into new intentions involving your will power into the illusionary circle. That contemplative view is achieved by surrender to God. This state does not mean that your intention or will power stops working. It continues to work, but it works as a divine instrument, you being a witness to its working.
As it works (whether being trapped into the illusionary cycle, or being more and more the divine instrument), it will doubtlessly also involve all the astrological laws. Your knowledge and mastery of those laws might become a very important stage of your progress towards becoming a better tool in the hands of God.
Don’t make the general theoretical point of an opportunity to become enlightened regardless of your knowledge of particular arcane details (or the absence of it) your excuse for not working to become literate. Become literate in subtle energy matters to fulfill your mission better. The saints and sages of the ancient times were the most literate and knowledgeable of both the purely spiritual and also any other (including linguistic, mathematical, astronomical, physical, medic) subjects. In the times of almost total illiteracy, lack of wide-spread educational establishments and darkness of general public they were the ones to leave the heritage of scriptures and teachings that lasted for millennia.
* One’s astrological chart is very much dependent on the Earth. It is from the position of birth relative to the rotation of the Earth around its axis that the system of houses is calculated for a nativity. Without this system a nativity makes no sense. I think we connect to the stellar bodies through the Earth energy. A question I would ask myself in this relation is: what if a human would be born, let’s say, on the Moon? This is going to be very real within the nearest few decades. Then, what, if a human would be born in open cosmos far from any planetary body? I’ve heard the astronauts related of rather strange feelings connected to getting far from the Earth (and by now they have only been able to get just in the closest astronomical vicinity of our home planet). Would it be possible for a human energy system to function normally for longer time being very far from the Earth?
* Also, in my view, the mythology of almost any religious tradition putting the hell, or the world of dead, or whatever they have in their belief system close to that idea, under the ground, or into the underworld, is not accidental. It is in the core of the Earth energy heart that the souls of humans with karmic connections to this planet are gathered after their material death.
* A very short mention related to a rather complicated subject of reading of the signs. What I see both here in this thread and also in general understanding present in today’s world: people who are trying to read signs are taking them too literally. They are looking for bright coincidences or points of special flavour which seem significant to them in the light of their current intellectual interpretation of the surrounding reality. I’ve received a lot of knowledge through signs’ reading. In my understanding you should not be looking for something extremely special or extraordinary. Signs are always there. They are in you everyday life, in your thoughts, emotions, things that happen in your ordinary routine. There’s unfathomed depth of Divine Wisdom just everywhere around you. Your ability to see it comes gradually as you ask God for this wisdom. You’ll see extraordinary in the ordinary, you’ll see special points in the things you used go by thousands of times before without even considering them. It’s not in what you are looking at, but rather in how you see it. Usually you are also hampering your vision of the signs through your expectations of what they should be like. Once you relax within and surrender to God, you’d receive signs, very often from the areas, places and instances you’d never imagine to find them in according to your previous understanding. Some minimum level of emptiness must be present in your psyche for God to fill it with the sign. Ask for higher, spiritual wisdom (rather than for bliss/ecstasy). Wisdom includes both bliss and ecstasy, as well as many other things, while keeping you more alert (your mind aimed at razor sharp discrimination) and leaving less chances for indulging into emotional traps of positive thinking. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 27 2006 : 7:24:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Naz:
"One’s astrological chart is very much dependent on the Earth. It is from the position of birth relative to the rotation of the Earth around its axis that the system of houses is calculated for a nativity. Without this system a nativity makes no sense."
Namaste Naz:
You make a great point here. And one which needs further elucidation from you regarding the method of calculation and the numbering system upon which it is based.
How are you generating the charts you interpret? Without a clear understanding of how you make the calculations for any chart, natal chart or otherwise, it is difficult to accept the greater part of your posted comments regarding astrological interpretation.
Are you personally making such calculations to create a chart? Are you using an astrological ephemeris to cast a chart? A Table of Sidereal Transits, or what? Please share more specifc details about the chart generation process, instead of only stating philosophical perspectives and personal interpretations, so that we might better appreciate the validity of your comments.
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Dec 27 2006 11:30:07 PM |
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Samyama with planets & stellar formations
