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Naz
37 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 05 2006 : 1:48:00 PM
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Thanks everyone for your replies. I greatly appreciate them.
I've just read the last message of Yogani. It was actually to be expected. So, before I continue, I'd like to check out if my further open messages are welcome by the host of this forum.
Here's a short reply to Yogani. I have much more on my mind, but I'm not sure if even this message would pass through the moderation stage. So, here’s just a prelude.
Yogani: your teachings sound like a well-produced TV Commercial. You are offering an 'all-in-one' product to resolve any problems and get all the positivity there is to be found in this Universe.
You also sound to me very much like a former TM Teacher. Your system of meditation and samyama practice is actually a slightly modified and improved copy of Mahesh's system. As my first steps in meditation and samyama were closely associated with the TM movement, I know this system very well, know it from inside.
I have a lot to say about the things dealt with in the various topics of your forum. It’s a lot of useful things, things to which I came through years and years of hard spiritual work and elimination of mistakes and illusions.
Samyama and meditation really work, and they are capable of working miracles.
But they don’t work the way your (or rather Mahesh’s) TV Commercial says. There are problems to confront, difficulties to overcome, and dangers (great dangers, BTW) to face. The way it is taught in Mahesh’s style is good to sell the product, but not to make any significant further progress. People are mostly indulging into the overall positivity aura, which is nothing but a strong mood-making. The practitioners are occasionally touching the Absolute in their practice indeed, but, to be fair enough, that is nearly the only thing they achieve. Their any further discriminating vision into the subtle energy areas is clouded with the omnipresent ‘all-round-positive’ mood.
If I am allowed to speak openly in the discussions of this forum, there’s vast amount of practical info I can bring out. I am, however, the one who puts the TV Commercial product to the extensive realistic tests and observes all the aspects of the results – both positive and negative.
In case this is published on the forum and goes into the public discussion, I remind everyone, that this is my private opinion, which may not coincide with the one of the forum host (Yogani) or the other participants of this discussion. I am not trying to push anyone to think or do the way I think and do. I am merely presenting information for your contemplation and judgement, or just speaking out my private thoughts aloud (not necessarily for someone to listen to).
Best. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2006 : 2:44:31 PM
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Namaste to All!
Perhaps the following article will be of interest to some of you, and provide fresh insights to the subject of Samyama from another perspective. 
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The Power of Comprehension Resulting
from
THE SAMYAMA PROCESS
The Three Stages of Comprehension
Dharana, Dhyana, Samadhi
Concentration, Contemplation, Complete Satisfaction
Now the reason that it is more difficult to realize than to simply understand is this - there are actually three stages of learning and the ego loves the first stage and takes it as the be-all and end-all of learning. So in order to aid you in grasping the actual "Reality" of this concept (which is the point of healing), it is greatly helpful to understand the actual Mechanics of Learning - the three stages of mental development in the process of knowledge and knowing.
So a little digression...
On "Getting It" - Discovering A New Reality
The Message
My philosophy is this - if you're not getting it ("the Message") then it's possible there is static in your communication system. If you would like the static cleared you must (with clear purpose) call on someone with a clear system to help you locate (identify) the source(s) of your static. By the "Message" I mean the "Reality" of Surrender, not just the concept. I mean the Physical and Perceptual Benefit, which, in order to realize, requires some preliminaries.
Understanding the Learning Process that Leads to Realization
There are three phases to the completion of the learning process, and this is taught, if sought, in most of the world philosophies. In Sanskrit the understanding of this process of comprehension is called Samyama - the power of all(-inclusiveness). In Arabic "Iqan" or Certitude.
Understand that comprehension by definition implies all-including, as in nothing left out, and is therefore not complete until opposites (all oppositions) are included/reconciled, otherwise it is partial comprehension, or partiality.
Pure comprehension, or the completion of the learning process, is called Samadhi (bliss(ful)/satisfaction), in Arabic (ana-al) Haqq or realization. This genuine comprehension is the root core of happiness and healthy living, and is our innate state, without confusion. In Arabic this is expressed as "Islam ad-dinul fitrah", or, "True Surrender is the Way/Debt/Indebtedness of Nature".
This comprehension is attained as the third and final stage of a three part learning process, however long or short that may be. This finality, or completion of comprehension, is referred to in Sufi terminology as "haqqul yaqin", the realization of certainty, the "got it!"
The Three Stages of Comprehension
Dharana, Dhyana, Samadhi
Concentration, Contemplation, Complete Satisfaction
The first stage of the process of learning/comprehension is to identify or objectify that which you wish to comprehend. This in itself is not always easy because of our thinking, but complicating the procedure is the illusion that we know what it is we want or do not know. Add to that the ego satisfying illusion that discovery is knowledge.
True Discovery is difficult, and that's why it is half the battle. Discovery might be compared in Arabic to "`Ilmul Yaqin", or hearing about a knowledge of which you wish to learn more. The Power of the mind used and developed for the accomplishment of this stage is known in Sanskrit as Dharana (concentration, focus, search, contact, discovery, identification), and the accomplishment is achieved by a combination of pure intent and asking the right questions.
The second stage of realization is contemplation or absorption. This is the stage of actually doing the work necessary to complete understanding. It requires the development of a sufficiency of dedication, determination and commitment, and a continued use and development of the Powers of Dharana, focus of attention or concentration. In Sanskrit this work and power of contemplation is called Dhyana. It might be likened to `Ainul Yaqin, or visual connection, you "got it in your sights", so to speak. "Not letting go until I get it all". "Working on it".
You might notice that the development of each one of these powers of the stages of process requires the use of the entire process - identification, contemplation and comprehension.
And, as I'm sure you have noticed, when your focus of attention, concentration and contemplation upon your chosen studies have done their job and your study has run its course and all the requisites have been met, you are finally rewarded with the satisfaction of complete comprehension, which results in a final satisfaction, called Samadhi, or Bliss.
In Healing, the completion of this process of self discovery, concentration and comprehension is a totally visceral sensation and the foundation of perfect health. Hence it is referred to as Bliss. It is the completion of our Surrender and of the process of our desired absorption in God.
In study, it is the stage at which one Knows that one has digested the topic completely, no longer feels ignorant of it in any aspect, and is completely free and ready to move on to the next challenge. This is the equivalent of Haqq ul Yaqin.
In the matters of life it is considered to be the Supreme accomplishment.
Hari OM!
Doc
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2006 : 3:47:41 PM
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Athma-Shakti,
the 2nd question then , no your chart will not return with planets in the same position during a lifetime. If a human life is 84 years,it is one cycle of Uranus (which is incidentally the planet belonging to Aquarius). And it covers three cycles of Saturn (depicting "the path away from God" (usually) 0-29.6 years, "the Path towards God", 29,6-58 years, and "the path in God", 58-87 years (potentially); Furthermore, half a Neptune cycle , and currently also half a Pluto cycle. In 84 years the Sun will have gone round your chart 365 x 84 times
The interesting thing about Yogani's reply is that the difference between MODERN western astrology and vedic astrology is somewhat similar... planets are neutral energies, it is how we deal with them that will give the effect of negative or positive experience. In general it is simple, anything done "away from ourselves" creates more stress, pressure and negative effect, and any planetary experience cropping up dealt with "in tune with ourselves" will pave the way for positive experiences. Ancient western astrology as well as much of vedic astrology uses "bad" and "good" planets very much so.
Greetings from a fellow Aquarian |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2006 : 4:21:12 PM
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I know Mahesh's world pretty well too, Naz. I happen to be a critic of it in a number of ways. And yet I see enormous differences between the world of Mahesh and what is going on here. One of the big defining differences is openness. Another is the richness of the system of techniques.
Is AYP influenced by Mahesh? Of course, why not. It's more a case of where the information through than where it is coming from. It's said that Mahesh was himself highly influenced by, who was it, Satyananda (god help me, but I have probably gotten the name wrong.) And there's plenty here that hasn't come from Mahesh either, but from scattered (and gathered) elements of the broad yoga tradition.
Naz, you're talking as if you have a whole lot of answers for us, as if you have some revolutionary way to improve Yogani's whole approach and method of teaching. But let's be practical --- even supposing for a moment that that is true..... How on earth are you going to convince us? Be realistic, now. What is practical? What works? What is productive, what is counter-productive?
What are you going to demonstrate that is going to make people say, "I want some of that!". One thing that isn't going to work is coming into an online community, insulting people and then offering your great wisdom and insights. It doesn't work that way.
If you want to head a revolution, here's a much more practical alternative: find your own following. Go out into the world, either the online world or the person-to-person world, and see if there is a high demand for what you have to say.
But c'mon, if you wish to work here, be realistic and adapt.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 05 2006 7:20:28 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2006 : 4:36:23 PM
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Hi Naz:
You are free to speak your mind, within limits. We do not permit the bashing of any tradition, guru, or teacher ... or each other, as has already been said. It is counter-productive to our purpose here, which is the ongoing positive integration and refinement of the best methods available, regardless of source. We will do our best not to bash you, but if you want to be welcome, you must return the favor. It is up to you, and the moderators.
They will be tightening the reigns on your posting from here forward.
The guru is in you.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4372 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2006 : 4:59:15 PM
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Hi Naz,
I just wanted to ask you a question before you get completely moderated out of this forum for being rude and offensive.
quote:
Naz wrote:
But they don’t work the way your (or rather Mahesh’s) TV Commercial says. There are problems to confront, difficulties to overcome, and dangers (great dangers, BTW) to face.
You sound like you are speaking from experience here. What are these great dangers? Are they something we should know about?
Love and Light
Christi |
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2006 : 06:29:15 AM
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Thanks. I am very happy my message was published.
In view of the Yogani’s short reply and his reference to “tightening the reigns on my posting from here forward” I’d still like to make it very clear what I am up to, if I am allowed to stay on this forum and speak openly.
It is true, as David said, here we find “openness, and the richness of the system of techniques”. It is a very large step forward. And I can only approve this one. I am very thankful to Yogani for the work he’s done and the platform he’s created. It is a solid ground for the evolutionary work.
My intention both in my own broad spiritual practice and in my participation in the work of AYP forums (which is a small part of the former), is to achieve the positive results, not the negative ones; to better understand and master the positive effects and to enrich the spectrum of experiences and knowledge available to me (or to others). The “ongoing positive integration and refinement of the best methods available, regardless of source” is very much my way and approach to spiritual practice. However, additionally I have: invention, research and mastering of the methods and experiences being currently not available in the external sources of information, or being very poorly (incompletely, unclearly, mistakenly and unelaboratedly) available in the sources like both contemporary and ancient literature heritage of various spiritual and other traditions, and the successive traditions of masters and students. Since there’s unlimited amount of the ‘unknown’ in the Universe, I believe there should be no doubt whatsoever as to the existence of this ‘external’ and ‘unexplored’ knowledge.
So, now coming back to the points of this message. As I am an independent researcher, rather than an obedient student (which does not necessarily imply that I am always not obedient and am completely unable of respecting the traditions and teachers), I would question the correctness and purity, as well as the level of competence of any tradition or source I am working with. To ‘question’ does not imply to ‘insult’, or to ‘scorn’ the respective tradition or teaching. That, however, implies openly expressing my point of view (which is always my private opinion, which may be incorrect or unripe, and may be changed with the time), openly criticizing the aspects I do not agree with. Such an openness might me biting and bitter at times, and might go against rules and traditions of many respectable spiritual paths. That does not imply, again, that those rules, traditions and paths are completely ‘ignorant’, ‘bad’ and ‘incompetent’. They have many positive aspects and have their progress their way. My own natural inclination, is, however, the way I stated above. And, in terms of transitory experience and the necessity to make my standing based on the understanding and circumstances I am facing in the given current moment, that may result in more or less acute incompatibility of points of view, opinions, approaches etc. In situations of such incompatibility I always do my best to let the opposing side have their progress their way. And I find I am having a lot of progress my way.
Now, to be more precise regarding the AYP discussions. If I am allowed to stay here, I’m going to criticize many aspects of the AYP samyama practice. I am going to disagree with many promises Yogani makes to the students of AYP, and I am going to declare that a number of Yogani’s sutras would harm many people if practiced deeply and effectively the way Yogani teaches.
I am very familiar and fluent with the methods as taught by Yogani. They are basically the same as the TM and TM-Siddhi programme I was practicing at the dawn of my spiritual path. And I can tell that in my view these methods are the best techniques to be found in today’s world. I am using basically the same techniques in my practice. Moreover, I can confidently say that Yogani’s work regarding the integration of these techniques with the other methods of yogic practice and the theoretical basis established in the AYP is much more flexible, versatile and effective for further growth than the one found in traditional TM-movement instructions. Yogani has done great job eliminating a number of narrow places and superstitious knags to be found in miscellaneous renderings of the information and methods he’s been using.
But this is actually getting too long for this message. So, to conclude, this is to check if my open criticism and expressing of opinions contradicting certain elements of AYP lessons are welcome here, or are they going to be bashed. While I would actually heartily welcome the bashing in form of counter-criticism and constructive debate, as they would help to better show all the aspects of the subject to broad public witnessing the argument, I do understand that it might also be logical for Yogani to simply get rid of my presence here and have no problems of debating the correctness of his teachings with another self-declared authority in the field. So, the decision is up to you.
Christi: The dangers are very obvious for those who were attentive enough to my previous messages. I declare with all my experience and confidence based on the long years of practice: you are going to get bad, or very bad results as soon as your samyama activates the negative elements of your chart. And this is going to happen for sure if you do all the sutras from Yogani’s lessons. Because any sutra has different effects based on the native chart of a given person and it’s astrologically highly improbable that for any person at all the planetary influences are so ideally balanced that the whole pack of the sutras would give 100% positive effects.
There are ways to get positively balanced influences from a whole bunch of the energies, even of your native chart is bad. This can be achieved through proper samyama with the single stars and stellar formations, as well as with other stellar bodies, including the asteroids. I am going to give more information on that in my following messages, if I am not banned before.
Also, in my view, the only reason why AYP practitioners (as well as the TM-Siddhi practitioners in the TM movement) are not experiencing the full extent of bad influences of the unbalanced sutras they are using, is that their samyama is very shallow, their mind is not empty and not innocent, and the influence of the accompanying positively oriented mood-making is much stronger than their actual practice and is overshadowing the results of the sutras. You can only observe the actual result of the sutras in your life if your mind is empty. Empty means that you are not expecting or anticipating any results (be they positive or negative), that you are having no preconceived ideas of what will come out and that you are not under the more or less subtle influence of the general mood inherent in the teaching you used to apprehend your practice. What is currently happening is that practitioners are unconsciously activating the positive elements of their charts according to the positive mood present on all the levels of the teaching. That is generally good, and will bring you good and positive results, just as promised by Yogani and Mahesh. That, however, is not real yoga. That approach is not letting you to get to the real switchboard of your energies and have the purity and extent of control which is only available with direct and innocent activation of energies accompanied with proper understanding of their qualities.
For me it took about 4 years in the beginning of my practice to get rid of the mood-making clouds of my mind and to start experiencing the pure effects of the energies I was activating. The first thing to start with if you are interested in such an effect, is to permanently give up any material goal-oriented thinking and to give yourself up to the will of God (or to your higher being, if you prefer that form of expression).
[to be continued in next messages (if I am not banned)…] |
Edited by - Naz on Dec 06 2006 10:14:48 AM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2006 : 10:22:50 AM
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| You talk a lot about AYP practitioners without actually knowing them. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2006 : 10:43:03 AM
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Hello Naz, within the pathology of certain traditions (that we are both familiar with) your questioning here would be simply labelled 'negativity' and your post would certainly have been rejected. The fact that your post was admitted is a reflection of 'openness'. It is through this openness that many of the pathologies of spiritual traditions are prevented from taking root. Just as mildew is destroyed by sunlight.
This community is manifesting certain non-traditional virtues by admitting your questions. For your part, be as diplomatic as possible in return. If you want to be approached as a genuine, well-meaning researcher, approach everyone else as genuine, well-meaning researchers. As I said, take responsibility for how you seem. Be a team player if you want to work with the team.
I do like to see everything being questioned. That is the way of research, isn't it? Or new propositions being put forward and questioned in their turn. Of course, your claims that the sutras are dangerous at times, and how you are sure of it, should be questioned just as strongly as the claims that they are not -- and hopefully, that questioning is friendly and rational too. And you must be ready for that, and be friendly and rational in return.
One final thing -- if anyone gets unfriendly or irrational with you (which might well happen), part of your job (as team-member) is not to return any kinds of insults, just as it is not to make them.
Good luck!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 06 2006 10:58:03 AM |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2006 : 11:06:30 AM
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Hello Naz,
concerning the dangers of sutras, I think this is handled
basically through the term 'self-pacing', which appears
over and over in Yoganis lessons.
I personally definitely have not listened to this warning
and have at various times overdone exercises and felt the
consquences. So, the only blame I could put on Yogani would
be: "You have not warned me enough", but in the end I am to
blame only myself. Well, blaming is not healthy, I will blame
nobody, not even myself, I only learn 
You are quite right, we are all in different boats, coming
from different backgrounds and have, as you put it, different
natal charts.
So, if you can point out in detail where and when and for whom
dangers are to be expected, then all the better.
By the way, a couple of days ago I sent a personal messsage to you.
May be you find the time to answer.
L&L
Wolfgang |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2006 : 12:44:14 PM
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Namaste to All!
I have a couple of concerns regarding this topic which I would like to express at this point in the discussion for everyone's consideration. They are based solely upon my own personal experience of long standing with the Spiritual Practices of the various Traditions that I have been Initiated into. Others here may have divergent views, and that's OK. I merely offer a bit of 'food for thought'.
First, I have observed that Samyama on anything that contributes to a Sadhaka's Spiritual Self-Realization, regardless of the subject of concentration and meditation, is a potential boon to personal practice insofar as the Samyama leads to progressively evolved States of Samadhi Consciousness as the eventual culmination of the Sadhana. All focal points of Dharana and Dhyana selected for Samyama are simply tools intended for use towards this end, they are not intended to be the 'end' in and of themselves.
To focus Samyama so totally on any one subject that it becomes the 'end all and be all' of one's Sadhana, is to stop short of the intended purpose of the practice. Oftentimes, for some practitioners, this becomes akin to dropping out of a University Graduate School Program with only a Semester or two left to go for a Ph.D. Degree!  Why bother starting and taking something that far, if we aren't going to go all the way to completion
Secondly, the primary spiritual fault I observe in the perspective of most die-hard astrologers of every system, Eastern or Western, is the tendency to view the position of the planets and constellations in each person's natal chart as immutable, lifelong influences that permanently affect the circumstances and personal potential of that individual's life experience. I believe that this view is summarily false in that it seems to deny the Universal Presence of an All-Knowing (Omniscient) and All-Powerful (Omnipotent) Conscious Being as the Source of All That Is....whether referred to as God, Brahman, Sat-Chit-Ananda, the Great Spirit, the Higher Power, or some other name.
For those who acknowledge a Faith in the Eternal Existence of this One Great Spiritual Presence, Power and Supreme Consciousness at work in the Universe, and in our lives, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE...anywhere...at any time...regarding anyone or anything! No poorly positioned or negatively aspected planet in any constellation of anyone's natal chart is beyond God's ability to neutralize and change, given the open receptivity of the individual to devotionally offer their life's work and their very existence to God for use in whatever way best facilitates the Greatest Good of All That Is. 
This of course necessitates a 'letting go' of personal power to control much of what most people value as important in their lives in order to step forth with Faith...for want of a different word...as "the Substance of things hoped for, as it was the Substance of things which have already come to pass, and the Evidence of things not yet seen". This is essentially a matter of 'Letting go and Letting God' insure our greatest good, regardless of any and all astrological aspects!
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Dec 06 2006 1:33:36 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2006 : 1:03:20 PM
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I am curious, when I look at the various people who are acknowledged to be advanced, such as The Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh, the various saints, Christ himself, the Buddha, Mohammad.
In general, as far as I know they don't teach or have not taught astrology, and it's not that astrology was not around, it's been there all along.
So I would ask the question - why now? What has changed? And with all the astrologers around how many of them do we see to be apparently enlightened. I don't know of any, but then there's lots I don't know - perhaps someone can enlighten me
Louis
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Christi
United Kingdom
4372 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2006 : 2:14:23 PM
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Hi Sparkle,
quote:
I am curious, when I look at the various people who are acknowledged to be advanced, such as The Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh, the various saints, Christ himself, the Buddha, Mohammad.
In general, as far as I know they don't teach or have not taught astrology, and it's not that astrology was not around, it's been there all along.
This is very true. We do know at least that these people did not teach astrology to the general public. But then they did not teach samyama practices to the general public either. There are very respected saints in India, who conduct pujas on astrologically important days, Ammachi is one of them. Ammachi has decided, for whatever reason, not to teach samyama practices to the general public (as of yet anyway). I do not know what Ammachi teaches to her Swamis.
Hi Naz,
Thanks for the reply. That was very polite, worthy of someone as experienced as yourself.
So what you are saying, is that samyama practice, as taught by Yogani, will have different effects on people, depending on their natal chart and that this will happen, even if they stick to the given sutras, "love", "radiance", "unity" etc. without necessarily incorporating planets or constellations into the practice. You also say that the chances are very high that someone will experience serious problems due to incompatibility of the energies of these sutras with their given natal chart.
Please correct me if I have got this wrong. And furthermore, you put in the proviso, that if there is a general "good-vibe" around, created by a group mentality, or by other practices, then these negative effects can be avoided.
It occurred to me that in AYP samyama is never a stand alone practice. It is also given as an advanced practice. It is added on to pranayama and deep meditation at a fairly advanced stage. I have not re-read the lessons, but I believe it is true that if the instructions are followed carefully, a certain degree of ecstasy and abiding bliss will be present in the practitioner, before samyama is added. Samyama then forms part of the practice, and the other practices are not dropped, at any point. This means that the "good-vibes" should always be present, protecting the practitioner, and preventing the negative effects of any clashes with the practitioner's natal chart.
Do you agree that the AYP system could have an inbuilt self-protection mechanism operating in this way?
Is this the only serious danger that you can see in the AYP system, or are there others that we should know about? You must know about the other worlds for example, and the beings that dwell in them, do you think that AYP prepares practitioners sufficiently for these encounters?
L&L
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 06 2006 3:29:10 PM |
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VIL
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - Dec 06 2006 : 9:21:05 PM
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Great post, Doc. Alot to contemplate. I'll have to reread it again tomorrow:
VIL |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2006 : 2:26:51 PM
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Namaste Naz!
Would you please share your views on the origins and significance of the numbering system used in the calculations of Vedic astrology. I find such investigations into the beginnings of things to be ever intriguing and fascinating.
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Athma_Shakti
India
81 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2006 : 3:34:06 PM
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my opinion regarding the samyama sutras:
Samyama is a stage where the yogi has attained pratyahara(detaching from senses), purity of mind, inner silence, total surrender oneself to the God. In this stage the external forces from celestial bodies will not have greater effect on Yogi (provided that the yogi is not doing samyama in premature stages). Sutras like Love is not going to bring any negative results. Love is the best way of removing negative energies and blockages both internal and external. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2006 : 04:16:18 AM
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Christi wrote:quote:
This is very true. We do know at least that these people did not teach astrology to the general public. But then they did not teach samyama practices to the general public either. There are very respected saints in India, who conduct pujas on astrologically important days, Ammachi is one of them. Ammachi has decided, for whatever reason, not to teach samyama practices to the general public (as of yet anyway). I do not know what Ammachi teaches to her Swamis.
Thanks Christi, on doing a little research I see that Vedic astrology is more prevelant in the yogic tradition than in the western and Zen Buddhist systems.
------------------------------
Just to report briefly on my experiments with samyama on the planets.
After the post on 4th Dec. where I wrote quote:
I don't know what to expect in terms of changes that might occur, especially because the AYP practices are so powerful and instigate so many changes that distinguishing a difference between AYP and planetary and stellar samyama might be difficult - any clues?
I had a very powerful conscious dream which involved a series of tests and an initiation at the end. Since then my samyama practice has been very deep - the energy of it kept reminding me of Katrine's energy. In effect it's like I shifted to a new dept. (I'm not saying I'm at that level, just saying it reminded me of that level )
The dream was extra strange for me in that I havn't had a dream like that for years. It came totally out of the blue and there has be no hint of anything like it since.
Louis |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2006 : 10:47:48 PM
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Hi Sparkle,
That's so interesting. Unfortunately I don't feel ready to move further into Samyama just now... so I can't add to this post of yours, much as I'd like to... maybe someone else may try. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 4:01:34 PM
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Thanks sadhak
I'm not necessarly looking for a comment, I just posted it for the record.
I would also like to express my gratitude to Naz for promoting this interesting debate, and providing the opportunity to experiment a little.
Louis |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2006 : 7:19:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparkle: "I would also like to express my gratitude to Naz for promoting this interesting debate, and providing the opportunity to experiment a little."Louis
Agreed. And speaking of whom....where are you, Naz  I am still looking forward to reading your reply to my question for you!
Hari OM!
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2006 : 2:44:10 PM
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Hello everyone. Nice to see the discussion is going on.
Still I am not finding here anyone even remotely familiar with the field of experience I am currently working at. And that is actually the primary reason I started this topic: to make an endeavour to find some people who would be independently working on the same phenomena I am facing on my spiritual path. It's not that I want to make anyone work at the things that are interesting for me, but I believe that team work could be much more effective. I also think that this can work out the best way only if the team members are working in the team because they are genuinely interested and naturally inclined to the kind of work and research the team is dealing with. So, this forum topic is my bottle with the letter I throw into the waves of the ocean of Internet, in hope that sooner of later someone would read it, who is the one I am looking for.
As to the replies I read here… First of all, I am very sorry I am not able to personally address and reply everyone who addresses me regarding every detail. As I said: I am not a Master, Teacher, or anything of that kind. I am not going to do babysitting here as my full time job. Even if I’d like to (and I sincerely wish you all the possible progress, evolution, and attainment of most supreme wisdom soaring high above all my little research and private interests), I don’t think I am up to the task.
I’ve received a few private messages from the members of this forum to my e-mail box. By now I’ve replied none of them, sorry. My request to everyone here: unless your matter is really very private, please address your messages to the forum. I want to make it a public discussion, so that everyone capable can benefit from my replies (both now and in the future). I do my best to read all the messages I receive and at least to consider and think over the questions I am being addressed with. Unfortunately I am only a human, so I am not capable of personally replying everything. I don’t know the complete and competent answers to some questions or their parts. Some other questions awaken a number of considerations in my mind, but I am not ready to give out an open statement on the issue addressed to the given person (audience) in this very moment.
Nevertheless, I greatly approve you asking questions and expressing your views (doubts, thoughts) here. Once a question is asked and clearly formulated, you are one step closer to resolving the issue which is of importance to you. If you don’t receive your reply personally from me, you may find it out by yourself through self-analysis and reconsideration of what you already know, or get it from some other source/person. I also greatly encourage everyone here to ask their most important questions to God. If your question is really important and your prayer for the answer is deep and sincere, you are very likely to get a reply soon enough. Be attentive to your thoughts, as well as to the things you find happening around you. These are the messages from God to you in reply to your questions…
As for me, I’ll do my best to share some information and views I am a humble possessor of, which seem useful in the light of this discussion here.
In this message I’ll try to address a number of issues which come to my mind in view of the feedback I receive here.
* If some of you get curious about stars and astrology and would like to produce their natal charts: following are few advices based on my personal experience and numerous tests I made to verify the correctness of the system I use. Nowadays there are dozens of different astrology schools promoting sometimes essentially contradictory views as to how one should use astrological calculations and methods, and what can actually be read from a person’s natal chart. In my view, there’s currently not a single school (both in Western and Vedic Astrology) which would provide a clear, balanced and real experience (perception of the energies) based teaching in the field of Astrology. My personal belief and understanding is that the astrological knowledge had been channeled to the most ancient seers in some way in relatively complete and pure form. However, it had been somewhat misinterpreted already by them on the stage of transferring it to the broad public in form of the written texts. Later through the centuries and centuries of transferring the knowledge had been even more distorted, so what we get today is a broken mirror thousand pieces reflection of the actual Astrology. It is covered by a thick layer of misunderstanding and medieval prejudice. I was working for almost 6 years to reconstruct the actual system based on the seeds of knowledge contained both in the Vedic and Western astrology sources. From hundreds of broken pieces I’ve rebuilt what seems to be relatively close to reality and is confirmed by the direct energy experience I am lucky to be endowed with.
So, to prepare your natal chart: use sidereal (not tropical) Zodiac, ayanamsa by Lahiri, SriPati Bhava system. For astronomical and mathematical calculations you may use a free astrological program ZET (http://zaytsev.com/). It’s primarily supposed for the Western Astrology (tropical zodiac) calculations, but the recent updated versions also support tuning to sidereal zodiac and SriPati Bhava system. The program is very versatile and includes a lot of useful functions. For Vedic astrology Parashara’s Light is a good commercial program. It has a number of features unique for Vedic astrology and not available in other programs, but for the convenience of calculations I often find ZET better – and it’s also free. In any program you use to make your chart there’s many built-in interpretation and prognostication functions. My advice – don’t trust them. Most of them have no substantial ground in the energy phenomena and are only invented as games on the mathematical level to fool you around and take your money for the Astro-Consultation. (Respected paid Western and Vedic astrologers may disagree here, but this is, as always, my private view as explained in above messages). So, use the program only for the astronomical and mathematical functions needed to produce your chart. That’s all they are good for.
If you go into the astrological literature of today, I find relatively reliable the descriptions of the natural characteristics and qualities of the Planets and Signs, as well as those of the Bhavas (astrological Houses, or Mansions). These are the most ancient parts of the astrological lore, and it seems to me that they have been preserved rather good through the centuries. The rest of the current astrology is quite questionable for me (especially when it comes to the prognostication part). Also, I find the Vedic tradition more pure and better preserved than the Western one. Though, in both the traditions I found certain elements which are working for me and are not present in the other one. But, for the beginner, I highly recommend to start with the Vedic one, especially its basic part (definitions, natural qualities of the celestial bodies, names (these are often very insightful) and the most basic mathematical apparatus). This part is very close to the actual state of affairs and can mostly be relied upon. The more you go into the advanced parts, the more confusion and hay you find. And there’s more of this intellectual (being not based on the energy experience) astrological mess in the Western, than in the Vedic astrology, although, as I stated above, both the systems are subject to great ravel and are impure. The fragments of useful knowledge are scattered throughout them and have to be picked up, like precious stoned from the sidewalk mud.
* Now a few words I find timely in view of the many people here being interested in ‘enlightenment’ and ‘bliss’, as well as in ‘samadhi’ experience: In my native language the words ‘enlightenment’ and ‘education’ are very close etymologically. They are just two variations of the very same root. Actually ‘education’ in my tongue sounds like a slight variation of ‘enlightenment’. And that is very much reflective of the real situation. ‘Enlightenment’ is mostly referring to getting knowledge from within, while education is more applicable to getting it from external sources. The words are close and have much in common, as well as the processes they refer to. Many people interested in spiritual practices think for some reason that ‘enlightenment’ is something very ultimate and final, like getting the highest possible University degree. Well, it’s not quite the case. You can be more enlightened, and less enlightened. You can be enlightened in some fields, and not enlightened in the other ones. And there’s never a thing like final, ultimate, highest enlightenment. There’s always more to achieve, no matter at which level you currently are. The ancient Greek philosophers/seers used to say: the more you know, the more you don’t know. They also compared knowledge to an area within a circle, while the unknown was the area outside the circle. The greater is your circle, the greater would also be the border with the unknown…
In Christian tradition there’s a term called ‘salvation’. ‘Salvation’ is attained as a free gift from God, it is a sign of God’s grace, and it can be given to anyone, disregarding the spiritual level one is currently at, if only that person (or being) truly surrenders to God. So, the possibility of surrender is that free gift from God, this possibility is the God's grace. No matter who you are, or what you are, even if you are the lowest thief and murderer and have the heaviest sins on your soul, you can be saved through the God’s grace. Once you surrender to God, you become the God’s instrument in this world, and God leads you through the further experiences and situations of your material life. The level and quality of this surrender may vary in different persons and in different circumstances. These quality and purity of surrender can also be improved with the time, can become more powerful and conscious. A surrender which is pure and integrating enough can be called ‘samadhi’. Now, there’s also no thing like the final, ultimate, and highest ‘samadhi’. The quality and purity of your samadhi can always be improved, no matter how advanced you are. Though one can also say in a way, that there’s nothing higher than the ‘samadhi’ state (and such a saying is very common for many spiritual traditions). But always remember, that ‘samadhi’ is not a fixed state. It is dimensionless and timeless, it’s infinity expanding and collapsing into a point. It is limitless experience.
And now, the most important thing I wanted to point to. ‘Salvation’ or ‘samadhi’ does not automatically free you from your karma. Though, also, it is the only possibility to become free from the fetters of karma. What you have to keep in mind is that the karma will continue to work accordingly to its laws. ‘Salvation’ and ‘samadhi’ would give you the opportunity to become an independent witness of this karma, to use the laws and energy currents of the higher order to compensate for your past karma, and to be led by the God’s hand through the effects of your karma to eventually become less and less dependent on them, but always remember YOU WILL NEVER, NEVER BE ALLOWED TO BREAK OR IGNORE THE LAWS OF KARMA OF ALL THE LEVELS CURRENTLY IN PLACE. Whatever level of ‘samadhi’ you attain, you would not be allowed to break the astrological laws which rule your nativity. If the level of your ‘enlightenment’ and ‘samadhi’ is high enough, you may be given the opportunity to use your understanding of the more general and deeper laws to avoid the negative effects and to get the positive ones. But this understanding also encompasses and takes into account all the astrological laws working as they do, rather than simply ignoring them.
* In my understanding, the nativity should be calculated for the time the child is severed from the mother (the moment when the umbilical cord is cut). This is the moment when a child’s energy system becomes independent and gets its first connection with the celestial bodies established in the given birth.
* Now a few words about Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus Christ etc. All the great prophets and founders of the biggest world religions known to the current civilization were humans, not Gods, not demi-Gods. They walked the earth with their feet and didn’t fly in the air. They were ‘enlightened’ to some level. That does not mean they were the most enlightened persons of their time, and it does not mean there were no more enlightened persons both in their time and in other times and places. One could say that it was the God’s design and their destiny for those great prophets to become what they became. That also means that the broad public was more or less receptive to the teachings they were able to provide. The seers of more advanced levels might have been too far from the level of the general public to bring their knowledge and level of experience to that public.
In my view all the great prophets had their imperfections. Christianity, Islam and Judaism seem less flexible and free religions to me than Hinduism and Buddhism. Although, I do find many interesting and unique features in each of them.
Also, note, that many great prophets became what they were through challenging the authority and generally accepted rules of the system of beliefs currently in place at their respective time. Buddha challenged the Brahmanism. Jesus challenged the Judaism. And both became the founders of an alternative religion, which addressed the points poorly taken care of in the religious system they challenged. Jesus was crucified for this challenging. That, in general, means that any religious system can be improved at a proper time by a person of proper higher and more advanced knowledge. Religion is a path to God. It’s not the ultimate truth of God himself, though God is in this path and the path leads to this ultimate truth. But, remember, God is also limitless, so the word ‘ultimate’ is only an inadequate reference here to match the quality not usually found in the material dimension.
* Now a few words about the sutras. Let’s take ‘love’, since is had already been much discussed here. ‘Love’, like any other quality in this world, would eventually refer to its significator and ruling energy on the astrological level. Astrological energies rule groups of qualities, or phenomena, pertaining to them. They rule them as one whole, which means that by activating or enforcing certain quality you would inevitably get the enforcement of expression of all the other qualities ruled by the given astrological energy. They may express in various forms and styles according to your karma and the surrounding collective consciousness, but they always go together. The seer endowed with certain level of perception of these astrological influences is capable of direct experience of the actual ruling energies which stand behind any expressed energy flow. The quality of perception can be improved with the time and practice, can be made more clear and permanent.
‘Love’ would refer to Venus. Let me remind you, that love is a rajasic quality, not a sattvic one. ‘Love is blind’ the saying goes. Love can become vicious and lustful. Venus is ‘the preceptor of demons’ accordingly to the most ancient texts of the Vedic astrology, and that definition is true and clear like a bull’s eye shot. The actual meaning of that becomes obvious to you only once you’ve experienced some more of the energy world. But, on the other hand, Venus is the second greatest benefic after Jupiter, it is capable of self-sacrifice and even death for the sake of the other person. Let’s make an example. Jesus Christ was under the ruling influence of the Venus between the 9th and 10th Bhava. We see Christianity is a religion of love. We also see Jesus was crucified. And that effect was caused by the Venus energy in the location as stated above. Jesus knew he would be crucified and he actually pushed that effect through his own energy (because the energy flow is causative of the quality of effects one gets in his external life). His crucifixion could be easily avoided if the Venus energy would be moved, let’s say, to the 7th Bhava. The point is, that, if, e.g. in your chart the Venus is approximately at the same location as in Jesus’ chart, through the samyama with ‘love’ you would push a series of smaller scale ‘crucifixions’ in your life. Abstractly that means that you would rather die than give up your beliefs and your life-path (which are ruled by the 9th Bhava). The form of expression would vary depending on your own karma and the inclinations of the surrounding society. Your crucifixion might become an expelling from the professional position or anything else related to your actual life circumstances. Now, if your Venus is in the 3rd Bhava, samyama with ‘love’ would make you very much interested in sexually contacting base people of the opposite sex, you would also become a source of conflict and quarrel in many areas you put your attention to. You would predominantly see the ‘bad’ and ‘vicious’ features of the people you contact and you would greatly indulge into using these features to attain your private goals and more or less cheat and exploit the others. If, on the other hand, your Venus is in the 7th Bhava, which is its natural location, the effects would be very close to what is described as ‘pure, unconditional love’. In this context it might also be mentioned that Satan (or the fallen angel) is also ruled by the Venus. So, Jesus Christ and Satan are the dialectical pair of the opposites which together represent one and the same ruling energy. One makes no sense without the other. They are the two sides of one coin. Whoever seeks one of them in the field of duality, would inevitably face the other one too. |
Edited by - Naz on Dec 10 2006 6:39:57 PM |
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2006 : 5:34:01 PM
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Dear Naz,
I am in awe of your command of the English language, which is not your native language I read.
But I have an interesting thing to ask you, which has to do with the actual time of birth. I thought yogi's would be the FIRST people to recognize that it is the first intake of breath that ought to be the real moment of birth? It is via the intake of the breath that the soul bonds to the body, that external life starts, it is via the breath (pranayama) that we (consciously) return... Breath is were it starts and ends, is it not? (Well, if you expand on other things than astrological samyama, you can expect a response ) |
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Bill
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2006 : 5:34:54 PM
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Naz and fellow ayp friends,
This is my first input into this topic and I enjoy the discussion going on. First off I am curious to know if you are familiar with Robert Zoller's "Mideaval" astrology, a western school?
I really like what you say about the finality or lack thereof, of the process of samadhi and enlightenment.
One of the questions that I put out to God and the spiritual world is whether through this whole incarnation process something is gained for us as spiritual beings or for God and the spiritual world? Gained is not the right word but I am using it in a very broad sense. Or as Poonjaji's students titled one of his books Nother Ever Happened is it just fruitless wondering about the meaning of anything. I obviously don't understand "nothing ever happened." Does what lies in us as personalities just illusion to be burned up in the enlightment process, or is it a seed of something that has spiritual significance. In the past I have seen different answers coming out along an east west divide but now I am not so sure.
The zodiac provides a stage for all this to happen which may not "really" be happening or are there seeds that unfold in an infinity of spiritual variations or music of the spheres?
Posing these questions I let them go into the silence, and I mean really let them go. Maybe I need to deepen silence in myself before this can be fruitful. I think I am still a beginner.
I am on my path enjoying the contributions of all of you so that I may add in the course corrections that I see as necessary.
Bill |
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yoginstar
Netherlands
78 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2006 : 6:01:57 PM
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Hi Bill,
yes I know Robert Zoller.
David Frawley from New Mexico has in line with Naz' discovery (somewhat) written a terrific book on the origins of Vedic Astrology and how it has gone astray (bereft of spirituality) over time. He's an adherent of Ramana Maharshi.
Western-astrology wise, Jeff Green wrote "Pluto, the evolution of the soul" which is mindboggling for even beginners in astrology, and totally based on Eastern concepts (and Kriya Yoga). I'm an adherent (sort of) of that line of using of astrology. "Eastern philosophy in a Western language system".
Naz's expose on Venus is very much my own btw.
Best!
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Athma_Shakti
India
81 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2006 : 05:45:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yoginstar
Athma-Shakti,
the 2nd question then, no your chart will not return with planets in the same position during a lifetime. If a human life is 84 years,it is one cycle of Uranus (which is incidentally the planet belonging to Aquarius). And it covers three cycles of Saturn (depicting "the path away from God" (usually) 0-29.6 years, "the Path towards God", 29,6-58 years, and "the path in God", 58-87 years (potentially); Furthermore, half a Neptune cycle , and currently also half a Pluto cycle. In 84 years the Sun will have gone round your chart 365 x 84 times
The interesting thing about Yogani's reply is that the difference between MODERN western astrology and vedic astrology is somewhat similar... planets are neutral energies, it is how we deal with them that will give the effect of negative or positive experience. In general it is simple, anything done "away from ourselves" creates more stress, pressure and negative effect, and any planetary experience cropping up dealt with "in tune with ourselves" will pave the way for positive experiences. Ancient western astrology as well as much of vedic astrology uses "bad" and "good" planets very much so.
Greetings from a fellow Aquarian
Hi Yoginstar
sorry for the late reply, i forgot to reply.
Thanx for answering my question and Thanx for the Greetings too |
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Samyama with planets & stellar formations
