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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 11:30:13 AM
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| From the definition of samyama, the end goal is complete absorption into the object so that you lose your identify and become the object. However, in self-inquiry we are trying to lose all the identities and not become the object of attention. Aren't these two sound completely contradictory? |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 12:24:07 PM
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| My impression is your definition of samyama better fits mantra meditation. Samyama is said to infuse thoughts, actions, events etc. with silence, bringing it out, while meditation goes the opposite way, in, to cultivate it. Inner silence is the first half prerequisite to ripeness and relational self-inquiry. At least that's how I understand the lessons. |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 2:10:45 PM
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| samyama, according to patanjali, is the the last three limbs(dharana, dhyana and samadhi) taken together. So yes, you can say my question is related to samadhi. But still it is the same question. One is complete absorption into the object whereas self-inquiry is not identifying with any object. That is confusing to me. |
Edited by - gentlep on Jul 01 2012 2:15:37 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 3:50:09 PM
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It is complete absorption into the object such that there is no object left behind.. the object and stilless becomes one... that is what self inquiry with samyama is about too no? You ask "who am I" and let it go, this is at the mind level, but the end result is the union of the "I" and stillness leaving nothing (takes time)
Sorry, maybe you are asking something else? |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 4:28:49 PM
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The meaning of the word samyama is different to Pantanjali than in AYP. As you have said, in Patanjali's meaning, it is a "merging" with object. In AYP, it is a subtle release of intent at the border of "my will" to "thy will".
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 4:59:17 PM
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| somehow it makes sense and then it dosn't. For example, let's take (dharana, dhyana ad samadhi) on an object. In this case let's say the object is your own body. So the final effect is that you merge and become one with your body. But in self-enquiry, or the neti-neti way, you say your are not the body. |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 5:09:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
The meaning of the word samyama is different to Pantanjali than in AYP. As you have said, in Patanjali's meaning, it is a "merging" with object. In AYP, it is a subtle release of intent at the border of "my will" to "thy will".
Yes, AYP's samyama is different from Patanjali Yoga sutras' samyama.
AYP's samyama is simple and effective. I have not attempted Patanjali's samyama, so I can not say anything about it now. |
Edited by - yogishankar on Jul 01 2012 6:31:03 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 5:33:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
somehow it makes sense and then it dosn't. For example, let's take (dharana, dhyana ad samadhi) on an object. In this case let's say the object is your own body. So the final effect is that you merge and become one with your body. But in self-enquiry, or the neti-neti way, you say your are not the body.
Let me sit with this Gentlep and see if I can come with a better way to explain it. |
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yogishankar
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2012 : 8:14:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
From the definition of samyama, the end goal is complete absorption into the object so that you lose your identify and become the object. However, in self-inquiry we are trying to lose all the identities and not become the object of attention. Aren't these two sound completely contradictory?
I was reading Original Yoga and Tantra material for your sake.
Self-inquiry is an exclusive Tantra topic and you can do any time.
Patanjali Yoga Sutra's samyama has to be done on object. Suppose you want to do that on your physical body, the illumination or visual characteristic of the body is suspended, and is thus invisible to other people. This is as per verse 3.21
Oh Boy! Do you want to go invisible?  |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2012 : 08:07:07 AM
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Hi Gentlep,
I will try to explain this and hopefully be clearer this time.
Samadhi is described as a place we get to where there is oneness, no other, it is all us. Right?
When we are born, we have no concept of me and others. Then we slowly learn how to get attention, how to get what we want by doing a certain thing. This then becomes our nature and creates a separation. We want love, so we do things a certain way that will make us feel loved. We learn how to act so our parents will love us and our friends, our partners, our children... and so on....
Every time we do something to get their love and attention, we are making a separation, we are being someone we feel they want us to be in order to feel loved.
That is why, in samyama, we pick the word love without any definitions (knowing on the inside what love means, but not going into thinking or mind level evaluation of what love means... the more we can pick a sutra without concrete definitions, the more effective it is). We pick the word... Dhyana.. Hold the word for a few seconds... Dharana... And let it go into silence, so it becomes one with stillness, samadhi... Over time, the word love will intregate with stillness and soon we will realize the separation caused by mind level evaluation will drop and there will be oneness with the purest form of love and us... we then become love... many masters walk around pouring love, they don't have a definition for this word, they are in samadhi, in oness with the inner silence and to them defining what love is is not possible.
So samadhi is the inner silence becoming one with the sutra. Samadhi comes at different levels (the scripture define them, I really don't know the various forms of them).
Now, when we get some words from inner silence that may seem like a negative word... we cannot imagine becoming one with the negative word... like in the other post when someone said "death" was a word that came to them. Each person is different and the word "death" may mean something completely different for each one...
Let's say the word death comes up... should we continue doing samyama on death? Well yes and no... No, we dont make it a regular sutra that we pick and drop at every session, but yes when it comes up naturally, we pick it and let it go without trying to understand with our minds what it could mean(like I said, samyama is most effective when we don't attach mind level evaluations to the sutra), knowing it will show us something we need to see that is an issue in our lives. Maybe we are traumatized or hold into many stories surrounding death of our loved ones, or death of relationships or fear of our own death... we won't know this... but it will slowly be revealed to us as we keep going. Once we see a pattern in our life, we see how the death of a grand parent, a parent, an uncle, friend, sibling affected us, and how death follows us, we see the pattern that life sends our way again and again... in this case, we lose the ones we love.. So now we know there is something there for us to see... we see how every death made us feel... maybe defeated, maybe fearful of death, maybe abandoned, maybe lonely, maybe lost, betrayed, helpless... All of these are mind level separation, we cannot feel alone or lost or betrayed unless we are looking for something in someone else... We identify that one feeling that made us feel betrayed and hence separate (they betrayed us by passing away, god betrayed us by taking them away from us). We then pick that word and continue with samyama. At one point we will see that the separation is caused by an attachment to this feeling and see how we can fulfill this feeling within us... we see how the betrayal feeling exsists because we are expecting something from another, we don't need another to fulfill this lack we feel... when this inner shift happens, we become one with the word... does not mean we become death or a person who betrays others or ourselves or is going to be constantly betrayed... We becomes one... no separation... when this happens the word does not exist anymore. It's like dropping a drop of blue ink (identity of betrayal) into the ocean(inner silence)... the ocean does not become blue, they become one... there is no separation between the ink and the water now. The ocean does not go about saying I have a drop of blue ink in me... the ink only exists when it is outside the ocean.
Once we have let go, or become one with the identity of "betrayal"... something else may get revealed, a bigger picture... a feeling of being alone maybe... we then become one with that, with practice. All of this will then help us become one with "love"... and this love will be one with stillness and there will be no separation... only samadhi.
It is a process... we start with love, end with love and everything in-between will just help us become one with love.
I know this post was long, but I hope it helps.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2012 : 08:52:23 AM
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| PS: this is just one of the ways to work with samyama and self inquiry... depending on where people are in their path, at times they dont have to go through the entire process described above. At times "who am I" will do the same thing... at times just becoming aware of a problem and dropping it will do the same... depending on where the person is with respect to their ability to let go and ability to become one with inner silence, samyama will be more effective or a bit more drawn out... but the process is still the same, it is the becoming of one with inner silence that drops the separation (samadhi) that is the end goal. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 02:07:27 AM
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Dear Shanti,
Thank you for the explanation. Whilst one does not go into thinking and mind level evaluation of the sutra - there is supposed to be "intent" associated with the word, right? Like Love - When I drop 'love' my intent is to spread Love, so in a way, there is an association with the word Love. Should that be dropped altogether? Just say Love and let it be what it will be - it kind of feels weak that way.
I may as well throw in another of my thoughts on the sutras - I sometimes wonder - of what use is the sutra "Akasha - Lightness of air"? It's actually a very powerful sutra where one feels lighter (expanded somehow) immediately but even if I were to suddenly levitate - of what use would that be? Am I missing something there?
Thks
Sey |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 02:48:23 AM
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Just touch on the Sutra very lightly. I don't put any intent into it, the vibration of the word is enough and even that I don't need to feel.
The easiest way to explain this is like you are trying to strike a match to illuminate the dark space you inhabit. The more energy expended in trying to strike matches the less goes out into the stillness. In effect you continue to inhabit the small dark space and see the odd glimpse of something beyond. If you let everything go the energy is amplified.
You don't notice this immediately and it has to be part of the ever growing awareness in DM or I don't think you can develop the amplifier or the comprehension necessary. After a while the light comes from outside and illuminates your entire world. At first it is a tiny, diffuse light, it's difficult to separate it from the original dark and you strain to notice this very slight change ( or even know it exists).
Gradually the light gets brighter, you learn not to strain or force it. The more you let go, the brighter it becomes. Then you see your world and you as one and the same thing. The light has permeated everything.
Akasha isn't about levitation, it's about the body being ethereal, getting less dense, to allow the gradual fading away of the separation that remains. It is a much more powerful version of "I am not this body" without need to state it. Neither should you apply it in touching on the Sutra, I'm just giving it as a reference.
All the sutras work like that. Love has to flow outwards so it can permeate. Some work on a gross level defining to gradual opening such as health and strength. They are prayers to all as well, a selflessness. They work together to accelerate the opening.
Hope that helps. It's not easy to describe from the outside in because it's so subtle. Like trying to describe in written words how to see one of those pop up 3D pictures that used to be fashionable a few years back. Worse still it's like telling someone not to look at the picture at all and just say a few words without intent.  it's easy when you can see it and very frustrating when your trying your hardest to see it and nothing seems to be happening.
So, just let go. The Sutras don't require intent. Intent makes them leaden. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 04:16:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Dear Shanti,
Thank you for the explanation. Whilst one does not go into thinking and mind level evaluation of the sutra - there is supposed to be "intent" associated with the word, right? Like Love - When I drop 'love' my intent is to spread Love, so in a way, there is an association with the word Love. Should that be dropped altogether? Just say Love and let it be what it will be - it kind of feels weak that way.
I may as well throw in another of my thoughts on the sutras - I sometimes wonder - of what use is the sutra "Akasha - Lightness of air"? It's actually a very powerful sutra where one feels lighter (expanded somehow) immediately but even if I were to suddenly levitate - of what use would that be? Am I missing something there?
Thks
Sey
Karl has explained it well.
Yes, intent is there, but intent too can be at a mind level... how do we know what love, that we intend to spread in this world, is? We know it based on our limited definitions. Love to you has a diffent meaning perhaps than what love means to me. Love really is like the ocean, or bigger, the cosmos.. but that is hard to fathom... so we work at our level, with as little control as possible(this gives it a chance to change our definition of love over time, and that way "we" see how vast it is, and can fall more in love) , just a light touch, a slight intention of the word becoming what the universe wants it to become. It feels like when we drop it, it gets consumed by the vastness of love around us... our tiny intention is like the drop of ink, mine maybe red (based in my perception), yours maybe blue(based on your perception) another adds green....all of these joins the vast ocean of love and becomes the ocean... then the red, bue, green lose their identity to become one ocean of love.
But yes, you are right, intention is good... we keep that intention, but lighter and less concrete the intention, bigger the impact. Samyama is working at two levels (ultimately just one as we are a part of the whole )... On the universe, the impact will be what it has to be (that is why Yogani calls samyama self regulating, I think), but the lighter our intention is, the bigger the impact it will have on us... on our opening and our inner seeing and our connection with silence.
Lightness of air is, as Karl described, more a sutra to make us light, less concrete, more ability to let go... like air/Akasha , air cannot hold anything, it has no form, no structure, everything passes through it without destroying it... or the sky (akasha) is boundless, infinite, but no form, everything can pass through it but nothing can destroy it... that is what will help us let go our concrete self. Levitation is a side effect, what we call a siddhi, that may or may not happen... and if it does, we let it go as well, holding on to any siddhi is just staying stuck in some more scenery...
Thank you for your question Sey... at times writing replies to posts helps me see things clearer as well.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 05:10:14 AM
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I liken it to the scene in Avatar. Our hero is running around in an alien forest in the dark, he has a flaming torch which casts little light in his direct area. The creatures can see the light and are attacking him.
Once he extinguishes the light, he sees that the forest has its own bio luminescent glow. Instead of thrashing about and being hunted, instead he becomes one with the forest and everything is in balance and calm. It's a beautiful scene. This is the part after he loses his torch and is saved by the huntress.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjBC...gdata_player |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 07:27:41 AM
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Thanks Karl /Shanti. Understood. I think I may have been putting a little too much "intent" on my sutras. I do touch on them very lightly during samyama, but I also had a clear intent (outside of samyama time) what I wanted from them. I will let it be !
Hmm.. after writing that down, I am still not convinced that I should let go of my intent; it still feels weak without intent to me. Let us discuss it some more - Yes, Love means different things to different people. Someone would be releasing Love in inner silence with the intent of finding romantic Love. Someone else (me) will release Love with the intent of being a conductor of divine Love i.e. spreading Love. I don't want a handsome young Prince to turn up at my door  by mistake (who am I kidding?). In other words, whilst remaining broad enough to let God, I also want God to know what it is that I want. Someone said it - the thin line between Thy Will be done and My Will be done
Sey |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 08:17:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Thanks Karl /Shanti. Understood. I think I may have been putting a little too much "intent" on my sutras. I do touch on them very lightly during samyama, but I also had a clear intent (outside of samyama time) what I wanted from them. I will let it be !
Hmm.. after writing that down, I am still not convinced that I should let go of my intent; it still feels weak without intent to me. Let us discuss it some more - Yes, Love means different things to different people. Someone would be releasing Love in inner silence with the intent of finding romantic Love. Someone else (me) will release Love with the intent of being a conductor of divine Love i.e. spreading Love. I don't want a handsome young Prince to turn up at my door by mistake (who am I kidding?). In other words, whilst remaining broad enough to let God, I also want God to know what it is that I want. Someone said it - the thin line between Thy Will be done and My Will be done
Sey
Sey, that is good... whatever flows naturally (keeping a strong intent in this case) is perfectly fine... just stay open to the fact that it will change over time. The main reason we say light is so that the intent is not so solid that it does not have a chance to melt away or take another form... let it be solid as ice, that way when it has to melt and become water it will become water and then when it has to become vapor, it will become vapor... the water in all three forms is the same, the rigidity and structure has changed... our intent is the same, the form and structure changes... boundaries drop.
So for now, if keeping a strong intent feels like the way to go... go with it (I did for the longest time and am still learning and dropping... we all do... that is what the melting will do... slowly move us to become soft and unformed... the words in these posts are just sharings not rules)... just be easy with it and always be open to the idea that things will change. |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 12:00:04 PM
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| Does samyama ever get you wat you intend e.g romantic love or prince charming for sey or wealth for someone intending abundance that way. It appears to me that you will get what your are supposed to, based on karma or whatever. Only that samyama will somehow show you that whatever you get is somehow related to the meaning of the word, even if it is completely different than what you intended. So in a way, you are always forced to accept His will. Samyama just makes it easier to accept I guess, by showing you why you were wrong :) |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 12:07:00 PM
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I think you can train to be focused with samyama to "get" what you want... it then goes into the field of magick I think... but I may be wrong. It is also what is used to attain siddhis... but all of these keeps you bound to the form...
I am too lazy to focus too much energy on what I want... and what I want changes all the time (you know, a woman's prerogative...) so that would be a waste of energy now wouldn't it?  ... |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 12:08:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
Does samyama ever get you wat you intend e.g romantic love or prince charming for sey or wealth for someone intending abundance that way. It appears to me that you will get what your are supposed to, based on karma or whatever. Only that samyama will somehow show you that whatever you get is somehow related to the meaning of the word, even if it is completely different than what you intended. So in a way, you are always forced to accept His will. Samyama just makes it easier to accept I guess, by showing you why you were wrong :)
It could quite easily, there again if you want money, to antic love or whatever there is no need to pray for it, just get off your backside and go get it.
Asking for it in Sanyama is really about attachment, which is really what we are trying to remove. Basically you make yourself even more attached to material things. |
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 12:23:49 PM
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The difference is whether you are struggling and efforting to make something happen with your little self or inspired and driven by the higher powers. The later would make it much smoother and easier. But the question is whether this higher power, aka the inner silence, does help in your intention or forces it's own will and drags you around where it intends to, by changing the meaning of the sutra.
For Shanti, hopefully the samyama delivers you what you want before you change your mind :) And when you do change you can ask again :) |
Edited by - gentlep on Jul 03 2012 12:35:11 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 12:30:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
Does samyama ever get you wat you intend e.g romantic love or prince charming for sey or wealth for someone intending abundance that way. It appears to me that you will get what your are supposed to, based on karma or whatever. Only that samyama will somehow show you that whatever you get is somehow related to the meaning of the word, even if it is completely different than what you intended. So in a way, you are always forced to accept His will. Samyama just makes it easier to accept I guess, by showing you why you were wrong :)
It is possible to manifest things with Samyama. But, Samyama only "works" when we operate from silence. The "ego" does not have the ability. So, it tends to be self regulating... the greater the silence, the greater the "power", the more you tend to accept everything is as it should be...
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 12:35:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
The difference is whether you are struggling and efforting to make something happen with your little self or inspired and driven by the higher powers. The later would make it much smoother and easier. But the question is whether this higher power, aka the inner silence, does help in your intention or forces it's own will and drags you around where it intends to.
In deep silence, "my will" and "thy will" are the same thing. No dragging around...
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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 12:40:17 PM
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| Aren't we saying the same thing but in different ways. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 12:57:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
For Shanti, hopefully the samyama delivers you what you want before you change your mind :) And when you do change you can ask again :)
Thanks Gentlep...
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2012 : 3:07:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gentlep
Aren't we saying the same thing but in different ways.
Yes. I think we just cross posted.
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samyama and self-inquiry
