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Naz
37 Posts |
 Posted - May 14 2007 : 4:56:08 PM
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There’s one more thing I find worthwhile mentioning here regarding the philosophical concepts of the Gunas (Sattva, Rajas, Tamas). From Scott’s message I get an impression that many people here might have a very vague understanding of what these Gunas actually are and how they work.
Well, they (the Gunas) are very important in understanding how our mentality works and I often refer to them in my explanations. The Gunas are actually an adequate philosophical concept and language of definition of energy transformations to describe the changes of human psyche. The Western concepts of ‘good’ or ‘bad’ are too relative and foggy, changing from one context to the other to provide adequate description of the upward and downward directions of mental evolution. The Gunas, on the other hand, are very reliable, exact and relating to the real energy phenomena being an excellent improvement and substitute to refer to those things we previously named ‘bad’ or ‘good’.
Before giving more information on the Gunas, I’d like to ask if maybe someone has some personal, deeply felt through and understood on the level of experience knowledge to share with us about the Gunas? |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 04:11:33 AM
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Hi Naz
quote:
For you, Katrine, if you be kind enough to accept my humble opinion, you are being hopelessly trapped into a simplified illusion of being on the deeply spiritual path.
Yes, Naz.
I am aware of this. But after all - the pathless path is a paradox. That is why I am more attracted to simplicity than complexity. But thank you for reminding me that all paths are illusions.
quote:
However, you underestimate the value of bringing the Light to the level of the Budhi.
I just don't think I can do that, you see. In my experience, the light doesn't need my help. It only wants the space to flow in. It is pure intelligence; it always knows what it is doing. I don't. So, I'd rather bow to it, and hope that the sincerity of my bakhti will one day fuse the two.
quote:
...it’s more like following the Light’s orders and directions. And these orders and directions can sometimes be quite demanding and hard to accomplish...
Absolutely. Mostly due to my resistance to seeing that "my way" has nothing to do with it.
quote:
Basically, Katrine, I find your expressions very promising. You are going the right way, just move on. There’s lots of new things for you to discover and accomplish. Follow the Light, bring it into all the levels of your mind. Just don’t indulge into thinking about how great it is to be in the Light.
Yes...I will do my best to let the light bring itself into all levels. And I agree - thinking about the light, is not the same as being in it.
I wish you all the best too |
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 05:45:48 AM
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Good reply, Katrine. The power is with you. I’m touched.
I definitely intellectualize and obstinately follow ‘my way’ too much. Can’t help it.
Allow me to spare you of the elaborate verbose explanation of why this happens and which energies contribute to such an effect.
Thanks for staying with me. I didn’t expect you would. I do not deserve it.
You are being too kind with me. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 06:31:28 AM
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Hi Naz
quote:
I definitely intellectualize and obstinately follow ‘my way’ too much.
I do too.
quote:
Thanks for staying with me. I didn’t expect you would. I do not deserve it.
Neither do I.
Yet - real connection happens. In spite of these opinions 
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2007 : 10:57:01 PM
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Naz,
quote:
Before giving more information on the Gunas, I’d like to ask if maybe someone has some personal, deeply felt through and understood on the level of experience knowledge to share with us about the Gunas?
Yes I have personally, deeply felt these different kinds of vibrations. I don't call them energies because people tend to think of energies as things you feel in your body, or something. Yes, you can observe how these energies make your body act, kinda, but it's not like if you go looking for these qualities in yourself you're going to easily find them.
In truth, the more we talk about these things, the more misleading it'll be to a beginner. The best advice to give is: to practice with an open mind, and see for yourself after you get some experience, if the teachings in various traditions seem correct or not. Words are very misleading when it comes to personal experience.
That being said...rajas is a fiesty kind of vibe, I'd say. Angry, quick, bitter, etc. Tamas is a slow and dull one. Depressed, slow moving, procrastinating and lazy. Sattva isn't a mix of the two, but it's in between the two. It's purity. Serene, honest, successful, etc.
Everything has aspects of the gunas. If you look at a random picture (lets say, a mountain), it will manifest these gunas based on your mindset, and influence your mindset. So it's good to immerse yourself in sattvic things and people, to be influenced to become more like that. And it's good to make yourself more sattvic through meditation, because you make the rest of the world like that.
The easiest way to observe the gunas is to sit still without distractions and watch yourself. If you are thinking of tons of things, and being all anxious, that's rajaisic. If you are falling asleep, or just having a very drifting mindset, daydreaming, that's tamasic. If you are in the moment, calm and mindful, that's sattvic.
What do you have to share, Naz? |
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2007 : 11:41:24 AM
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Hi, there.
I’m just dropping in for a short few words.
Scott, thanks for your message. I hope to write more about the Gunas later.
Your rendering is about 50% correct. Some things are totally wrong (in my opinion, of course). For a short illustration, imagine a 3D space of energy transformations. Top is the Absolute. Bottom is the Expressed Reality. A point in this space characterizes any phenomenon (including the mental phenomena, which are the basis of everything expressed). If you are at a certain point, Sattva is the force which can drive your development (change with the flow of the time) upwards. Tamas is the force, which can drive you downwards. And Rajas is the force which expands and extends your line (area) of action while remaining on the same relative level between the Absolute and Expressed.
From the above, if you understand the illustration, one thing should be clear: Sattva is NO WAY between the Rajas and Tamas. Sattva is the relative top (or the upward tendency of the mind, to be more exact, it is the derivative of energy state with respect to time, in mathematical terms; hopefully, there are at least some people here who can read this definition). Tamas is the relative bottom (or the downward tendency). And Rajas is in between (or the level, on which the energy does not become more abstract (Sattvic) or more expressed (Tamasic) in relative terms, but reorganizes, transforms and multiplies its expressions, while remaining on the same relative plane between the Absolute and Expressed).
If this is clear at least to some of the readers, I’ll give more info further.
*****
Now, a few words to Katrine.
Well, thanks for the company during the last week.
This forum and its participants (including me) are doubtlessly blessed to have you with us. You’ve successfully shifted a few quite tough aspects of my mentality. I wouldn’t have been able to achieve this change by myself. Please accept my deep and sincere gratefulness for that.
What I can tell, is, that I do not seem to fully fathom your mind, Katrine, at least in the parts which I seem to be interested in. In terms of the significance for my research and the topics pertinent to my understanding of spiritual evolution you appear to be a few steps higher than what I found to be the average level of the people here at AYP (including Yogani). That’s remarkable.
I still feel somewhat knocked out after the first deeper dive into your mind. Girl, you are good…! It’s taken me about five days to roughly digest and get a preliminary understanding of the pattern of your energies. I hope to give more information on that in the future.
But, to be faithful in my rendering, I also have to add: You are not good enough…
Having taken a deeper inhale of your energies, I’ve had a series of truly valuable experiences. And, I am very thankful for that and looking forward to some more. Your energy is Sattvic and you are truly, deep-heartedly on the path, no doubt.
However, you could use some more balance and proportion in your pattern. Having opened and integrated myself into your energy lines, I’ve had a number of things surfacing which show me that you still do have to work on your pattern (if you really care to be the harmonious and pure channel of the Light, which, if I understand you correctly, is the essence of your path).
Relating to the most simple and obvious, during the five days when I allowed myself to be under the wave of your energy I’d cut my fingers two times and broke one big kitchen plate (and I can guarantee that it was your energy, which contributed to this). Also, if you know the expression ‘to have one’s head in the clouds’: it was one of the side effects I experienced. There were also some other things, which are indicative of unbalanced energy.
Now, let me tell you once more: I’m not reproaching. Girl, you are good…! There are not many people capable of getting me that far.
You do have the purity, mercy, sharp spiritual vision and other energy components I need and the ones I miss and am looking for.
But if you had the skills of energy control I have, you’d be able to get rid of the imperfections of your expression you currently suffer from.
I can even tell you very clearly what would have to be changed in order to get a much better result:
* you have to move your personal energy (the energy of ‘I am’) into an impersonal Bhava (like the 10th). There it will not be destructive in personal terms;
* you have to light up a scattering, dispersing and impersonal energy (best would be the Mercury) in your personal Bhava (like the Lagna); Yogani naturally has this feature, by the way.
Once you do these two things, your expression will change unrecognizably. You’ll achieve a distinctly new level.
There are a few more things in your replies I feel like commenting:
* in Bhagavad-Gita lord Krishna says: Follow your Dharma. Better die following your Dharma than live by other person’s Dharma. That, in my opinion, means that one has to go ‘his/her own way’. Yes, one has to make oneself empty to actually become the expression of the Light and to make ‘my way’ as close as possible to the ‘way of the God’. But, since one’s level of emptiness and receptivity is never sufficient and can always be improved, one has to go ‘his/her own way’, gradually making it more and more the ‘way of the God’. That’s your mission in this life. That’s your Dharma – ‘your way’.
* people here at AYP (including you, Katrine) seem to be deeply fond of the ‘simple’ approach to the spirituality. This ‘simple’ approach also appears to be the No.1 priority of Yogani’s rendering. Well, that’s a good thing, but just as long as you don’t make it ‘over-simple’, or ‘artificially/illusionary simple’. You see, the things and theories I’m trying to expose here are not complicated for me. They are simple for me. But they are simple for me now, because some time back I ventured upon exploring them, experimenting with them and risking my own mental comfort and immediate good and positive achievements for the sake of understanding them better. So, in my opinion, one must have the courage to step into the unexplored darkness (unclearness) and bring the Light to the regions one’s attention is not familiar with, in order to have tangible and far-reaching spiritual progress. The Light itself will not do this job for you, unless you explicitly express your desire to move in that direction. Once you are on that path, the Light will guide you and will help you, and that’s the way you can go. But, once more, the Light will not take you to the places you don’t want (or don’t deserve) to be. The Light will not walk your path for you. You have to walk it. And you choose the direction. In the Shamanic path this venturing into the dark, unexplored areas is referred to as the ‘jump into the abyss’.
Thanks everyone. God willing so, I’d also be happy to hear more from Katrine. |
Edited by - Naz on May 20 2007 12:21:06 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2007 : 2:18:48 PM
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Hi Naz. Very interesting stuff.
It does appear to be the case that people here are attracted to a simple, streamlined approach to their spirituality. I tend to have the desire to more and more keep it simple. I see the effortless rising of ever-new manifestation from Source and ask myself why "returning" shouldn't be as effortless.
On the first page of this thread, in your dirty and downgrading sexuality post  , you mentioned that aquarian energy was among the darkest and most Tamasic available to us. Could you elaborate on that a little? This body of mine was born with a hefty abundance of aquarian influenced planetary positions. Is there anything "positive" that this little self might do with that energy?
Alan |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2007 : 08:41:46 AM
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Hi Naz
quote:
This forum and its participants (including me) are doubtlessly blessed to have you with us. You’ve successfully shifted a few quite tough aspects of my mentality. I wouldn’t have been able to achieve this change by myself. Please accept my deep and sincere gratefulness for that.
I am very grateful that you allowed this shift to happen, Naz. Of course I accept your gratefulness, as long as you understand that I cannot take any credit for this internal shift. All is due to the real connection.
quote:
However, you could use some more balance and proportion in your pattern
Absolutely.
This is why I meditate and continue the self inquiry. So far - this simple path (which has brought me much ardous work over the years) seems to keep me in continuous purification. Not pure - but in purification. This is what is important to me - that I keep myself open to the process. This includes all inputs from all kinds of people. I listen first.
It is obvious that you know a great deal about Astrology, Naz. I don't know the first thing about it. I am in no position to either dispute or agree with what you say according your dive into my mind. You certainly know much more about me than I do! I appreciate the time you have spent in sincerely giving me this feed-back. I will read it with an open heart and listen for resonance.
quote:
The Light itself will not do this job for you, unless you explicitly express your desire to move in that direction
I totally agree. And I turn inwards towards the light as often as possible....I continuously pray to the light....I ask for guidence. Every day.
Thank you so much, Naz
I wish you all the best
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2007 : 09:14:49 AM
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quote:
In terms of the significance for my research and the topics pertinent to my understanding of spiritual evolution you appear to be a few steps higher than what I found to be the average level of the people here at AYP (including Yogani).
I am no higher or lower than anyone else, Naz. We are all one.
A mans actions speak for themselves.
I am nowhere near accomplishing what Yogani has done. What he is, he is in depth. I am very, very grateful to him for AYP and this Forum.
Without him, we would not have met.
We all have to walk our talk. I have much to learn - of this I am certain. |
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glagbo
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2007 : 9:34:08 PM
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Hi Naz:
Naz: Sattva is the relative top (or the upward tendency of the mind, to be more exact, it is the derivative of energy state with respect to time, in mathematical terms; hopefully, there are at least some people here who can read this definition). Tamas is the relative bottom (or the downward tendency).
If this is clear at least to some of the readers, I’ll give more info further.
Why bring in these technical mathematical terms? In this forum setting, IMHO, your prosaic definition of the derivative as rate of change would have sufficed for most of the readers.
Naz, I learned about derivatives in a Calculus class in college a long, long time ago. If in your 3D model above, one were to define E_a as energy level, counted positive toward top (absolute), then
Sattva = E_a'(t) = dE_a(t)/dt = lim_(h->0) [E_a(t+h)-E_a(t)]/h.
Since Tamas is the downward tendency (according to your model), would that give
Tamas = -E_a'(t) = -dE_a(t)/dt;
Would that not lead to
Tamas = -Sattva?
Is that true, At all points of your model, always? Is that what you claim?
Could you please provide (email) a full technical description of your model?
Naz, why the need for all this pedandism, and attempt at bamboozlement and belittling of the rest of us? Why the Pedandism in sex issues, pedandism in Vedic astrology, pedandism in yoga, pedantic mystification in Samyama, derivatives, etc.
Naz, what is this big, glorious Knowledge that you claim to have developed? You seem to have a lot to offer.
Please, Naz, do go ahead and dump it all (yes all you've got) on us, in one big chunk.
You may be nicely surprized by how much people can handle.
You claim that your advanced development in Samyama/Astrology/Yogic/Spiritual gives you deep insight into the state of achievement and spiritual shortcomings of people which interact with you.
Being all basically creatures of similar molds, we all have some (albeit limited)insight into one another's reality. My own insight as a mature plain old earthling would indicate that you would gain much from dropping all that mystification, and instead just presenting your interesting self to the world as you are (,at least to some level).
Blasting the mountain down will not make one higher than its summit.
As Katrine says, we need, ourselves, to actually walk (or climb) the talk to the summit (Katrine, please correct on this paraphrazing if I am too far off).
Peace, and let's stop hiding behind "derivatives", and other derived cliches.
B.R.V. |
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Hannah
38 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2007 : 12:46:11 PM
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| I am so glad someone has the guts to bring this topic up Naz! The "sexual" tantra is the kaula form, which is the lowest form of tantra. Samaya is the highest form of tantra and does not use sexuality at all. |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2007 : 1:11:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannah
I am so glad someone has the guts to bring this topic up Naz! The "sexual" tantra is the kaula form, which is the lowest form of tantra. Samaya is the highest form of tantra and does not use sexuality at all.
Hi Hannah:
Celibacy is a viable option in AYP, as are tantric sexual relations. There is no one right answer on this. It depends on the individual's bhakti (spiritual desire) and the energy dynamics that are operating within the person due to the level of purification in the nervous system. Of course, deep meditation, spinal breathing pranayama and other practices will shift these dynamics over time. Even then, it is always a matter of personal choice.
For one approach to impose its will on the other will invariably lead to difficulties. Don't we know it?
See this lesson on the relationship of brahmacharya, tantric sex, and celibacy: http://www.aypsite.org/T9.html
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2007 : 4:43:41 PM
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Anyone who is overly-attracted to celibacy should have themselves checked over for the possibility of cerebral narcissism, just to be absolutely sure that, if they are attracted to celibacy, it is for the right reasons. Below is a discussion of the cerebral-narcissism issue, with specific mention of the connection to celibacy. ( For the full article, see
here .)
The guy who wrote the bit below is a self-professed cerebral narcissist. In particular, be wary as hell of an attraction to celibacy, coupled with the other aspects of cerebral narcissism, which include constantly trying to show how brainy one is, trying to seize status over other people by intellectual means, etc. etc. etc. If all those parts line up, it doesn't look like celibacy for the right and mature 'spiritual' reason.
The Cerebral Narcissist by Sam Vaknin
Narcissists are either cerebral or somatic. In other words, they either generate their narcissistic supply by applying their bodies or by applying their minds.
[...] The cerebral narcissist is a know-it-all, haughty and intelligent "computer". He uses his awesome intellect, or knowledge (real or pretended) to secure adoration, adulation and admiration. [..] Both types are auto-erotic (psychosexually in love with themselves, with their bodies and with their brain). Both types prefer masturbation to adult, mature, interactive, multi-dimensional and emotion-laden sex. [...] The cerebral narcissist is often celibate (even when he has a girlfriend or a spouse).
I am a cerebral narcissist. I brandish my brainpower, exhibit my intellectual achievements, bask in the attention given to my mind and its products. I hate my body and neglect it. It is a nuisance, a burden, a derided appendix, an inconvenience, a punishment. Needless to add that I rarely have sex (often years apart). I masturbate regularly, very mechanically, as one would change water in an aquarium. I stay away from women because I perceive them to be ruthless predators who are out to consume me and mine.
[...]
I miss my somatic half. I wish I could find a balance, but I know it is a doomed quest. This sexual beast of mine will forever be trapped in the intellectual cage that is I, Sam Vaknin, the Brain. |
Edited by - david_obsidian on May 22 2007 4:59:33 PM |
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Hannah
38 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2007 : 7:04:18 PM
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Thank you Yogani for your input. I was not necessarily advocating celibacy (unless of course one chooses that lifestyle), rather pointing out the fact that what is often considered "tantra" in the West is the lowest form of tantra, kaula, which is oriented around much lower (sexual) energies. I would think a spiritual aspirant would favor the more spiritually uplifting samaya tantra. But, to each his own and thank God for giving us freewill to decide for ourselves.  |
Edited by - Hannah on May 22 2007 7:10:05 PM |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2007 : 11:17:05 AM
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Hi Hannah:
The thing is, the lower centers cannot be developed spiritually without developing the higher centers. There is a direct connection and interdependence. This is why tantric sexual methods alone do not go far without a daily routine of effective sitting practices, which finally resolves the stigma and failings of "western tantra."
Neither can the higher centers be developed spiritually without developing the lower centers, which is why the "higher tantras" include elements of practice covering the lower centers. To be all one or the other will lead to imbalance.
Regardless of lifestyle preferences (which can surely be accommodated in a flexible self-directed approach), balance in practices is the key, covering the full range of the nervous system.
"Higher tantra" utilizes meditation, pranayama, asanas, mudras, bandhas and other methods to cultivate the whole nervous system, leading to a balanced whole body opening, which includes the rise of both inner silence and ecstatic conductivity. The latter (the expansion of spiritual ecstasy) is an expansion upward of sexual neurobiological functioning, whether it is called that or not. It is clothed in the language of metaphor in the higher tantras (Sri Vidya and Kundalini lore), but it is the same transformation occurring within all devoted aspirants, regardless of preferred method, label, or creed.
The sexual neurobiology cannot be excluded from the spiritual equation any more than can be the body, breath, heart, or mind. All are part of the whole. It is only a matter of natural preference and approach. Still, in that, we cannot exclude an aspect of ourselves as a matter of convenience, or for avoiding karmic obstructions which sooner or later will be dissolved to fully reveal our inner light. Spiritual practices, whether from so-called higher or lower tantra, are for purifying every nook and cranny of our nervous system from top to bottom. With help in purification through effective practices, nature will take her course within us. All spiritual practices are for promoting the natural process of human spiritual transformation.
The path is within us, and not defined by any external source. All external sources, including the much ballyhooed scriptures and external gurus, are but aids to us on our own inner journey of purification and opening.
Certainly we will take advantage of external sources. They are obviously important. Yet, somewhere along the way we will find that the scripture and guru have been stirring within us all along, leading us home. That's why I keep saying...
The guru is in you.
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2007 : 11:48:14 AM
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Hi yogani,
you should include this excellent post somewhere in your lessons.
It is a marvellous summary  |
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Hannah
38 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2007 : 9:21:11 PM
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I would first like to say that after typing out my response below, I initially hesitated to post it. I had to really question myself as to whether I was responding solely for the sake of arguement, or did I really have something to say that might be worthwhile to others? Given the real-life example provided below, I decided that it ~might~ help someone, so I am humbly participating in this discussion.
By what you stated below Yogani, if I understand correctly, is that all centers (chakras) are developed by practicing the higher tantras. So why not pursue that or even using AYP without the tantra portion? From my own prior experience, I can most certainly feel the lower chakras activated by use of standard mantra repetition. The lower form of tantra, kaula, as so eloquently elaborated on by Naz, can carry along with it, lower energies. Someone who has not yet developed a sensitivity to energy may not be aware of what is being done to their overall energetic system. I only say this because I have personally witnessed destructive behaviors, even a severe psychosis, by someone who got carried away with "sex meditation". She thought she was married to a demon. While that sounds almost too ludicrous to be real, it indeed happened. [She is still happily married to the best of my knowledge!] I am not advocating celibacy, nor am I against it. For spiritual progress though, it would seem logically to behoove the aspirant to avoid the lower forms of tantra. There is still the remaining smorgasboard of practices. Just look at the size of the AYP book! And that's just AYP! Once you have had a good chuckle about the example given above, it becomes even scarier to learn that she is the mother of two teenage children. Truly an extreme example of where this can lead.
It seems we agree that it is important to find a balanced practice and I thank you Yogani for the work you have done to that end with making AYP accessible to all! And again, thanks to Naz for bringing this rather charged topic to be discussed.
Blessings to All
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
The thing is, the lower centers cannot be developed spiritually without developing the higher centers. There is a direct connection and interdependence. This is why tantric sexual methods alone do not go far without a daily routine of effective sitting practices, which finally resolves the stigma and failings of "western tantra."
Neither can the higher centers be developed spiritually without developing the lower centers, which is why the "higher tantras" include elements of practice covering the lower centers. To be all one or the other will lead to imbalance.
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2007 : 11:44:17 PM
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Hi Hannah:
Not a silly example at all, and very worthwhile to bring up. But it is not necessarily related entirely to engaging in simple pre-orgasmic sex.
Just to be clear, the role of tantric sex in AYP is based entirely on one's existing sexual habits and preferences. In other words, if someone is going to be engaging in sex anyway, then why not bring a spiritual benefit along with it? And if sex is not in the picture, that is okay too. We have multiple means for cultivating spiritual progress in either situation.
As you know, AYP is not involved in rituals, and certainly not in working with "lower energies." The act of engaging in pre-orgasmic sex refines and elevates sexual energy to a much more celestial experience, rather than degrading it into lower manifestions. That is why it is done. This is also true of the various yogic techniques coming from high tantra that are stimulating the same energies.
If there is inherent instability in a person, any yoga practice could cause some aggravation of that -- not just tantric sex. Out of all the AYP practices, tantric sex is probably the least risky in that respect. Regardless, in cases where practices contribute to instability, we take immediate action with self-pacing -- scaling back on practices until we find stability in the practice routine and in daily life.
What we are talking about with severe psychological reactions isn't the yoga methods necessarily, but a person's sensitivities and vulnerabilities. We have to be careful when such vulnerabilities are found to be present, self-pace practices immediately, engage in the necessary grounding methods, and seek professional help as needed.
So, this issue you are raising does not have to do primarily with tantric sex, but with all yoga practices in relation to the aspirant's mental health. Extreme instability in relation to yoga practices is an issue pertaining to certain individuals, and we have seen a few cases like that over the past several years. Fortunately only a few. In those cases, yoga techniques were not the initial cause, but may have aggravated a pre-existing condition, particularly if practices were done to excess over a period of time.
Whether or not a person is engaging in tantric sexual methods like the ones presented in AYP is the least of it. The higher techniques can be more risky for those with serious psychologicial issues, because such practices are much more powerful than tantric sex. The truth is, the power of tantric sex by itself is way over-rated.
So engaging in higher tantra (meditation, etc,) is not necessarily going to be the answer in cases where psychological instability is present, though there have been some cases where deep meditation and/or spinal breathing pranayama have helped a lot. Others will say that people with serious psychological issues should avoid meditation altogether, and start with asanas for a good while instead.
Everyone is different, and we are not doctors here. We do our best to provide a self-directed system of yoga practices that will be effective and safe for the vast majority of people. For those who have serious psycholocial issues, specialized attention is required, and we are not necessarily the best qualified for that.
Btw, we have had some pretty good discussions on yoga and mental health in the forums in months past. Pehaps others can point to them.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4382 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 08:19:04 AM
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Hi Naz,
quote:
First of all Yogani, I am really thankful to you. I do feel thankful to you for establishing this forum, where I can write and express my opinions. I am also thankful to you for not kicking me off from here for being your opponent and not adhering to many of your teachings.
I never thought I would see such a heartfelt thank you coming from you Naz. You are really starting to surprise me (in a good way!). But don't worry, you are not Yogani's opponent. It would be quite funny if you were. Actually you are not anyone's opponent, and you never have been. Not in this realm, or in any of the other multi-faceted energy universes that lie behind this one .
quote:
But there’s nothing special about the Samadhi thing. Samadhi is not your final destination on your spiritual quest.
Actually Yogani has never said that samadhi is the final destination on the spiritual path. He has talked in the main lessons on this website about the levels of human realization beyond samadhi. He has also discussed this elsewhere in the forum.
At the risk of being crucified, I thought I'd just mention that writing controversial posts that you don't even believe are true, in order to invite a response from people, and then to do everything you can to try and undermine them and upset them is not a spiritual practice. No-one has ever taught it as a spiritual practice, and it does not lead to divine realization. It is actually quite a sick game that is more likely to attract demonic energies than any unbalanced sexual practices or unhealthy sexual repression ever could.
And the demonic energies are present, aren't they? 
Much love
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on May 24 2007 09:41:05 AM |
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 12:48:22 PM
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Balance: You have nothing to do with the Aquarian energy.
In the greatly simplified toy-model of Astrology which is used to attribute signs to persons in the Western countries the procedure is as follows:
* for the day of one’s birth the Sun’s position is determined within the Zodiacal belt (accordingly to the Tropical Zodiac, which is counted from the point of Vernal Equinox, and which is misplaced in my opinion, as it has a purely symbolic meaning and is not connected to the real positions of the stars, which are the basis for one’s Samyama). Sun travels the ecliptic at the speed of approximately one rotation per year, thus going approximately through one of the 12 signs of the Zodiac in one month. This way, if you are born between certain dates you are attributed some sign.
* However, this being the sign which the Sun is transiting in the time of your birth (even if it was the sign of the correct Sidereal Zodiac, which it is not), has in most cases nothing to do with the actual energies influencing your nativity.
* This pattern of attributing a sign to a person is only good for the fun, not for any serious conclusions or energy readings.
Your main energy is Venus (or Tula, or Libra, or Balance, which incidentally happens to be also your nickname).
Now, there are really some people whose dominating energies are Tamasic. However, in order to understand their opportunities and spiritual path you must first understand the energy dynamics of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas and how they influence the human mind. If you paid attention to my illustrative model of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas, some further explanations may be provided on the basis of this model.
Gunas are the tendencies of the mind. The range of human forms of mentality extends for quite a long span within this model. Your dominating Guna shows the main tendency in which you are going, starting from the point at which you are. So, for example, to fully cross the range of human mentality from the topmost (most Sattvic) to the bottommost (most Tamasic) expressions, many lives are required. It may frequently happen that a person whose dominating Guna in this life is Tamas is spiritually a few levels more advanced and Sattvic (in terms of his/her Samskaras, i.e. in the terms of position within the model, rather than in the terms of the tendency) than another person, whose dominating Guna is the Sattva.
Also, normally humans interact with each other energetically constantly within their lifetimes. Someone’s Tamasic influences are usually balanced with the other people’s Rajasic and Sattvic influences, as their energies mingle together. Also, it should be noted here that Tamasic energies have a great capacity to learn and to pick up the knowledge, skills, views, approaches and energy structures in general from the other Gunas. Tamasic means that you willingly (intentionally) take more than you give in energy terms. Since taking is always easiest from the Sattvic people (who willingly (intentionally) give more than take in energy terms), Tamasic people usually acquire a lot of knowledge and other things from those Sattvic people. However, if their Tamasic tendency continues too long (being not properly balanced with the Sattvic tendencies), the things they have acquired are being lost by them against their own will (being robbed away by the Time), and that’s where the pain, depression and insatiable craving for more starts.
The above is actually only an approximation. The real processes are even much more complicated and multi-dimensional. But I’m giving this preliminary model so you can understand the phenomena better. You should remember as well that my model of the Gunas in 3D space is also only a model, and it has its limitations. But it will be helpful to explain a number of phenomena at least generally, to give you something you can tune your mind to.
I experience these phenomena as the energy perception. My perception is not perfect and is not mistake free. There are things (actually quite many things) I would find rather difficult to convert into verbal expressions or other models (mathematical formulae, visual 3D models etc.). But provided the necessary perceptive mode of the audience the verbal expression of the things I perceive might go still a few levels higher and deeper. This is a viable potential. |
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 1:43:36 PM
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David: I actually wanted to address this message to Katrine, as she was there in line before you, but you are being so impatient I have to deal with you first.
First of all, if the moderators feel it is right to kick me out of this forum, I absolutely understand this. I’ve already given Yogani every reason to get rid of my presence here, and I think I’ll give him some more opportunities for that in future, in case I remain here. In any case I’ll do my best to say the things I really do feel and think about everything and everyone.
Satyam eva jayate (from Sanskrit: ‘only the Truth is victorious’)
There are some interesting things in your messages I’d like to comment on. I think I’ll do that in time. In fact, I wanted to deeply thank you for providing me with such a wonderful opportunity for psycho-cathartic performance. For the meanwhile, please rest assured: I am a narcissist, no doubt. Many of people who know me personally name me a narcissist. As this term is not so widely used, I’ve always used the term ‘Egotist’ in my above messages here. But I do not mind you calling me a narcissist, that’s undeniably one of my dominating tendencies.
I am afraid to disappoint your expectations, but I do not happen to ‘masturbate regularly, very mechanically, as one would change water in an aquarium’.. Actually, I’m sorry to say, I do not masturbate at all and do not even feel like trying.
But there are some things of your description which actually do fit into the picture very precisely, I must admit, you do have a good eye and intuition. I’ll deal with them in my next messages (of course, unless I’m banned from here as per your advice).
In the meanwhile, I have a very humble request for you. I am not a brilliant mathematician (I learned derivatives back in the secondary school, and I wasn’t actually the best in math among my classmates). My University education was related to the theoretical physics, but it was such a long time ago that I do not even remember the things I learned there any more. Now I accidentally come up with a mathematical model of the things I experience. My knowledge of derivatives has somehow popped up in my mind to provide a mathematical description of what I wanted to illustrate. But I studied these derivatives such a long time back, that I am not even sure if I got the definition right…
Now, you being a decent engineer and having knowledge of Calculus so much more superior to my old school memories, would you kindly explain and elaborate to me, what is ’mathematically flawed, imprecise and broken’ in my definition of the Gunas through derivatives. I’m obviously too stupid to understand this on my own, and would be much obliged for your kind elucidation. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 2:16:56 PM
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Thanks Naz I appreciate your answer. I am such a simpleton that I cannot even delve too far into western play-time models of astrology. And math is so tedious and laborious to me that I could not allow myself to focus enough to pass simple algebra. I am happy being simple. Carry on with others who can better serve your needs and I will enjoy the fireworks from the sidelines  .
Cheers,
Alan
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 2:58:52 PM
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would you kindly explain and elaborate to me, what is ’mathematically flawed, imprecise and broken’ in my definition of the Gunas through derivatives
It would be OK to say the following: sattva and tamas contribute respectively as forces to the time-derivative of 'energy'. This leads to the following equations:
E'(t) = sattva(t) - tamas(t).
To mathematically say that either one of them is the time-derivative of 'energy' actually contradicts the above, and leads to the equations Glagbo produced. ( Strictly speaking, you did not state that Tamas is the negative time-derivative of 'Energy' but you implied it.) The equation Glagbo produced from your definition indicates that sattvas and tamas always have the same magnitude, which makes the idea of increasing sattva and decreasing tamas impossible.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on May 24 2007 5:12:27 PM |
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Naz
37 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 6:09:54 PM
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David, thanks for your prompt reply.
As to your remarks regarding the equations, my kind request to you is:
Stop splitting the hairs and pettifogging.
We are speaking here about understanding the phenomena behind the models better. My model is not perfect and is only a first approximation. I’m just trying to put it together out of my head, based on the experience I have. The final equations, if it ever comes to be expressed, will have much more components and will require many additional definitions. If I had a ready made fully mathematically/physically perfect model Glagbo wanted me to e-mail him, I’d have presented it to the scientific community long time ago and would have probably already been a Nobel Prize winner for that.
Of course, sattva and tamas are the contributing forces. Rajas is also a component, by the way. It also changes the energy condition with the time, but, as opposed to the Sattva and Tamas, the change is within the horizontal plane, in terms of my model.
And if what you want to say is that sattva and tamas can not always have the same magnitude, let me ask you: Why not? Well, within the individual mind one might argue (although I’d easily find arguments for both the sides of a theoretical dispute). But within the Universal scale, would the {sattva = -tamas} not remind you the famous {E=mc^2}?
And since I’m already here, let me introduce a few more definitions:
So, let’s say, within this first approximation we assume our energy derivative to be the comprehensive descriptive sum of all the influences and forces contributing to the energy modification.
In that case the Astrological Energies are the 12 contributing forces to the energy derivative of an individual mind. 4 per Guna. Not necessarily all the 12 are simultaneously active in an individual mind. In most cases for ordinary humans they have only one chosen private dominating Astr. Energy. But then the missing ones are replenished from the karmic energy connections with the society.
And, the Bhava positions within the Bhava belt are the contributing factors to modify the individual time-space warp expression of any Astrological Energy.
So, the expression of any energy depends on:
1. The Energy quality (one out of 12), which can be awakened through Samyama with the Astronomical object carrying this quality. (Most objects have a definite one single quality).
2. The position of that object within the Bhava belt of a person performing Samyama with the given object.
And the Energy Derivative produced by the mind of an individual person would be the sum of all the energy qualities awakened by the Samyama with certain objects, taking into account the time-space warp introduced by the Bhava position of each of these objects.
Now, how are the new Samskaras (i.e. the expressed individual karmic steps within the time) formed? Within the above model, I’d have to introduce a function, which would be based on the above definition of the Energy Derivative, as the sum of all the influences, and which function would be applied to the field of the past Samskaras. The result of applying this function of the Energy Derivative to the field (or to the power set) of existing Samskaras would give the new set of Samskaras.
Now, where does the individual will and choice come into this model?
We are allowed to choose the set of energies (or, to be more precise, the set of objects for Samyama) we channel through our minds.
If one knows nothing about conscious Samyama (which is the case for the overwhelming majority of humans), one goes accordingly to quite the same scheme anyway. Because any thought is actually a Samyama. And if this Samyama is not consciously directed to a specific astronomical object, it is being intercepted by the Grahas (the Holders, the main astronomical objects of our planetary system, being the Sun, the Moon and the major planets) and being further worked out accordingly to the Bhava positions and qualities of the Grahas in the individual nativity of a person activating the Samyama (or, as per above definition, actually any thinking/emotion-ing person).
Now, would you guys like David and Glagbo, and maybe someone else having the proper skills, please take a deeper look and consideration of this preliminary model, express the verbal definitions in math formulas, as you understand it from what I tell, and possibly point to some flaws and potential incompatibilities. That would be a great help.
*****
Now David, regarding your narcissism account, well, you are not really hitting the apple when it comes to evaluating my true motives and ways of behaviour. I’ll deal with that in the further messages, but just to say a few words very shortly and generally:
You’ve never actually succeeded to hurt me, although you’ve tried it hard. Only a deserved kick really hurts; you are mostly kicking the air around me and giving me extra reasons for a good laugh. Well, I was holding back a few real kicks especially for you, but so far I’ve decided to keep them just for my internal consideration.
I’m not fighting with my sexuality. I simply switch it off when I want, and I am able to turn it on, when I want. I have the skills for that. I don’t think anyone here at AYP has comparable skills.
As to my Ego, or my Narcissism beast, I do let it become rabid. But, mark it well: it is I who let it become rabid and express itself to its maximum (when I want and where I want) and not that it tells me what I have to do.
When I let my Ego express itself at high rates I tend to become emotionally unstable. You could observe an example of such an unstable emotionality in my last message to Katrine. She provides a very conducive energy environment for such an unstable expression because her natural tendency is passive and tuning to the individual expressions of her object of attention. She has the ‘listening’ skills. While a person of my cut is a natural ‘Big Mouth’.
However, when I let myself go (or express my Ego), I don’t do it simply for fun or to satisfy my Narcissic ambitions. There’s always a deeper part of me contemplating the expressions and making conclusions. I am a mental shape-shifter. I can change from pekinese to mastiff throughout all the breeds in between. I assume certain mental forms (or activate certain Samyama combinations, to be more precise) and let them express to their maximum, in order to understand their functioning better.
That’s enough for this time. |
Edited by - Naz on May 24 2007 6:28:58 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2007 : 8:13:23 PM
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naz wrote:
quote:
Yes, all the Chakras and all the body/energy aspects have to be developed harmoniously
in order to achieve the higher level of integration required for the ongoing enlightenment.
Yogani teaches that this harmonious development is automatic; there is no need to break
it down, in fact it can be detrimental.
quote:
You speak of living the ecstatic conductivity, divine bliss and other blah-blah things…
A lot of people seem to have taken the bait
taken the bait? Nobody is being seduced into doing something that is bad for them.
quote:
I’ve already criticized Yogani’s approach for being too much ‘customer oriented’. It is
more a ‘marketing’ and ‘make everyone happy’ approach than a true pure ‘God oriented’ and
‘higher spirituality oriented’ approach. Obviously, such an approach will make the system
more popular and ensure its better reception and approval in the broad masses. But will
it actually fulfill its purpose of being a ‘spiritual highway’?
Yes it is "customer oriented". the idea is to remove all the bull that makes this path
unnecessarily complex. There is no need for the spiritual path to be only for certain
elite people. It is not "marketing", because nothing is being sold. Yogani isn't getting
rich off of this; he is giving all he can give. If you read AYP lessons, you will see that
AYP can be completely "God" or "higher spirituality oriented" if that is your path.
But it is not necessary to force other people to follow your path; and other people
have paths that are quite valid.
quote:
But within the Universal scale, would the {sattva = -tamas} not remind you the famous
{E=mc^2}?
No, these equations are lot alike at all. The first is the relation of two opposites, and
Einsteins is the relation of energy to matter, which are not opposite, but equal.
quote:
I’m not fighting with my sexuality. I simply switch it off when I want, and I am able
to turn it on, when I want. I have the skills for that. I don’t think anyone here at AYP
has comparable skills.
To the contrary, this is basic to tantra from my understanding. The ability to change
sexual energy into spiritual energy.
I think you are misunderstanding AYP teachings. Instead of traditional thinking that sex
is opposed to spirituality, AYP teaches that sexual energy is the same as spiritual
energy, but how it manifests is up to the user. So instead of making sex bad, as is
the western tradition, we learn to move that energy to other parts of our bodies.
As it leaves the sexual organs it is no longer sexual energy; it is spiritual.
It is all the same energy; prana, life-force, chi, etc.
This thread is getting away from the purpose of these forums.
The purpose of these forums at AYP is to discuss not only AYP practices, but other
systems of thought, and how they relate to AYP practices.
I'm not making any judgement of the validity of your thoughts, Naz, but at some
point you need to return to AYP practices. For instance, maybe you could write
about what you have achieved spiritually and how it relates to what we are
doing at AYP. |
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A Criticism of Sexual Spirituality
