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 Satsang Cafe - General Discussions on AYP
 Comparison and all its subtlety
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Wil

Sweden
59 Posts

Posted - May 19 2021 :  12:40:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Inner silence keeps on emerging here. I find that the sharpening of the senses has made me go into a rut of wanting to show off this sharpness, or prove myself, however subtle. I must admit that it is fun to explore all the competitive wordly things out there.

Now, one thing that i think is connected to this is that I have this strong envy or, turned around, a lack of selfworth/comparison that also comes up sometimes. Many times it is subtle. It have lead to me not wishing other people well, even regarding their spiritual path . Is it that I feel the comparison and competition of the world (sometimes with bhakti) and yoga gets infected by this too? I get involved in intellectual debates, it could be about ethics, or with more intensity, about spirituality. It is like one part of me only feels engaged in drama. All else is boring, meaningless and it just passes by easily. I know there are other things which are very fun... but they are so spontaneous and 'easy.

I have reclused from engaging much with my friends because of this. I have started to notice how these resuluting feelings of no selfworth, comparison or envy makes it less worth engaging in debates, dramatizing or showing off´ my sharpness. Now what, am I destined to be a soft speaking guy with no sharp opinions?

Well that is my take on this what I guess is a witness thing. It feels good to write it out, thank you AYP. Please chime in!





Edited by - Wil on May 19 2021 3:34:46 PM

SeySorciere

Seychelles
1325 Posts

Posted - May 21 2021 :  01:38:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Will,

This behaviour will drop off for a bit, in particular, the 'meanness' or lacks behind your reason as to why you want to show off your sharpness but to answer the question are you destined to become a soft-spoken guy with no sharp opinions - I would say, no. Your perception changes and impacts how you approach life, but your personality does not change. Else, you would come across as false.


Sey


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Dogboy

USA
1848 Posts

Posted - May 21 2021 :  07:43:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Wil, you are witnessing these thoughts and feelings, a sign of progression on your path. Once you identify envy, or worthlessness, or displays of “sharpness”, that is your opportunity to sit with how real they are in the first place and then let them go, and make personal positive adjustments going forward if Inner Guru counsels this. You don’t have to isolate yourself from others (unless they are toxic to you) or shy from lively conversation (unless you are over dominant and toxic to others). There is a plethora of greys between black and white. Your witnessing will assist you in aiming there.
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interpaul

USA
281 Posts

Posted - May 21 2021 :  12:10:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Wil, As you point out we have shared similiar issues recently (me in my disappointment in everyone post). I find a greater polarity has formed in me, i.e. a greater sensitivity to the apparent duality in the world. My feelings of love and acceptance have grown, while at the same time I see people's failings even more "sharply". I imagine this is part of the process of integration and ultimately embracing the non dual nature of life. It does sound like your desire for competition and then self doubt is tied to a projection of your own inner struggles. Finding a deeper place of acceptance of yourself will ultimately lead to a greater acceptance of others around you. We are fundamentally a competitive species, it has allowed us to dominate the physical world (at great cost to the environment). AYP is an amazing collection of practices that I believe is slowly transforming me into my best self and I wish that for you and everyone else.
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1325 Posts

Posted - May 22 2021 :  01:51:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Actually the biggest trap I believe we all fall into is “spiritual superiority”. Takes a while to see your nonsense in that one.


Sey
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Wil

Sweden
59 Posts

Posted - May 22 2021 :  10:44:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the reasuring words SeySorciere and Dogboy. With patience and search of what is behind all these unrooted emotions I will keep on going out and live life as usual. Finding the gray area in the midst of all seems like a good description. And what else is there that can find this, except the all encopassing inner silence? I am going to reduce practice also, it never hurts you know.

Sey, the spiritual superiority seemed like a thing past for me, but once my friends asks me "What benefits came from AYP?" only responding "Try it and see" is hard when it goes so deep. Now, when I think about this again, I am grateful that I have almost forgot all the scenery that I have had along the path.

Interpaul. Polarity or whatever comes up, we can do this! There is no turning back...for me at least. I'm linking your post which really expands well on this and that helped me: https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...PIC_ID=18896
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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1670 Posts

Posted - May 22 2021 :  3:17:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Wil
quote:
Originally posted by Wil

Inner silence keeps on emerging here. I find that the sharpening of the senses has made me go into a rut of wanting to show off this sharpness, or prove myself, however subtle. I must admit that it is fun to explore all the competitive wordly things out there.

Now, one thing that i think is connected to this is that I have this strong envy or, turned around, a lack of selfworth/comparison that also comes up sometimes. Many times it is subtle. It have lead to me not wishing other people well, even regarding their spiritual path . Is it that I feel the comparison and competition of the world (sometimes with bhakti) and yoga gets infected by this too? I get involved in intellectual debates, it could be about ethics, or with more intensity, about spirituality. It is like one part of me only feels engaged in drama. All else is boring, meaningless and it just passes by easily. I know there are other things which are very fun... but they are so spontaneous and 'easy.

I have reclused from engaging much with my friends because of this. I have started to notice how these resuluting feelings of no selfworth, comparison or envy makes it less worth engaging in debates, dramatizing or showing off´ my sharpness.


You have began to be very aware of the inadequacies of the 'small me'. It is the beginning of a shift in the relationship between ego and silence. The small me is inadequate - "a vine growing far from the Father" (aka Silence/Witness), and very stressed about it too, though not wanting to admit it. We start to admit it when we begin to sense that there is another way. You are beginning to sense it. This is the result of your meditation practice.
quote:
Originally posted by Wil
Now what, am I destined to be a soft speaking guy with no sharp opinions?


Soft speaking maybe, but probably not without opinions. There may be times when you will need to be firm in an opinion because it will be in everyone's interest to do so. In Lesson 35, Yogani speaks about a change in motivation, brought about by practice, a change from acting in the interest of our limited self, to acting in the interest of our deeper self.
quote:
our motives are different than before when we could only see ourself as separate. We now act in the interest of a broader self.

You are on your way to finding that broader self. You will change, have no doubt about it, no stone will be left unturned.

Enjoy your practice
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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
30 Posts

Posted - May 24 2021 :  9:32:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Ommmm Wil,

Firstly; congratulations!

You have reached a very special stage on the path, even though it may not feel like it at the present...

Nothing's changed, you are still the same person you always were, rather, all that's changed is your level of awareness of who you are, what exists around you, how you interact with the world and how the world interacts with you, increasing awareness can sometimes be a little disconcerting because we're not used to it...

Its extremely common for people progressing on the spiritual path to withhold wishes of progress too others, so again nothing to worry about here my friend (it will fade); the very fact that you have noticed this in you and are speaking openly about it shows that you have 'noticed' this tendency and want it to not 'be' any more (a tendency) much respect to you brother!

Was going to talk about the debate thing ie. its cool as long as you're not brow beating someone into agreeing with your own opinions, but I see that's been covered above.

Was just wondering though, are the drops in mood (you were talking about) happening after these lively debates your enjoying?

I love,

Yogabuzz108

Edited by - Yogabuzz108 on May 25 2021 12:39:41 AM
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Wil

Sweden
59 Posts

Posted - May 27 2021 :  5:14:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi BlueRaincoat,
quote:


You have began to be very aware of the inadequacies of the 'small me'. It is the beginning of a shift in the relationship between ego and silence. The small me is inadequate - "a vine growing far from the Father" (aka Silence/Witness), and very stressed about it too, though not wanting to admit it. We start to admit it when we begin to sense that there is another way. You are beginning to sense it. This is the result of your meditation practice.





I’m wearing a Blue raincoat as Im writing this..anyhow I am reluctant to proclaim overtly that I possess witness but it feels good to read your comments to myself. Lovely.

quote:


Soft speaking maybe, but probably not without opinions. There may be times when you will need to be firm in an opinion because it will be in everyone's interest to do so. In Lesson 35, Yogani speaks about a change in motivation, brought about by practice, a change from acting in the interest of our limited self, to acting in the interest of our deeper self.



Christi’s comment in Interpauls thread I linked, about ”dropping the best idea”~ was something I tried to do non-relationally before AYP. Now..it is different. I do sense that there is more, and dropping overt inquiries, too sharp comments or any sticky tempting opinion/thougt seems more peaceful and rewarding than ever. Dropping’ for me here is quite synonymous with Samyama or giving it to an ishta.

Hello Yogabuzz108,

Ommm to you brother.

quote:

Was just wondering though, are the drops in mood (you were talking about) happening after these lively debates your enjoying?



Yes but it depends. Now I think changes have happened. But to be specific it was often regret”my friend dosnt like me now” or, restlessness which I thought was because of nobody/nothing matched my energy/sharpeness.
:)

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BlueRaincoat

United Kingdom
1670 Posts

Posted - May 28 2021 :  9:13:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Wil
I am reluctant to proclaim overtly that I possess witness


No, we cannot possess the witness. We possess nothing, but we can be visited by grace.

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Wil

Sweden
59 Posts

Posted - May 28 2021 :  11:00:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:

Originally posted by BlueRaincoat


quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Wil
I am reluctant to proclaim overtly that I possess witness



No, we cannot possess the witness. We possess nothing, but we can be visited by grace.





Hahah, your words ring more true to me. To express myself in other words then; "I am reluctant to proclaim overtly that...I am visited by grace now and then. I think we have a relationship that is beginning. "

Edited by - Wil on May 29 2021 12:15:58 AM
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Wil

Sweden
59 Posts

Posted - Jun 09 2021 :  11:19:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
For the record I now follow up on my experience.

The following are expressions I seem to have adopted these past couple of weeks. It has helped me be flexible in how people relate to me in a verbal way or, at best, emotionally. These expressions often appeared when I had frustration or reactions that I could not share with anyone except AYP practitioners or someone alike.

Here goes nothing:

"I do not know what to believe nowadays!!!" or the less frequent "I am going trough something nowadays."

One can call these expressions a short-end to avoid explaining all of the reasons that my sensitivity, self-pacing and grounding demands. Sharing most of these reasons alone just ends me up being isolated, judged or without anyones respect... And no this is not in my head, I have my plethora of social experiences to confirm this...well it is still in my head but I brought it with my heart here to AYP





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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 12 2021 :  04:02:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Om Wil,

Well both these things are true, but don't worry I'm not going to give you a bull answer to this question, as we progress, and it must be difficult to be at the stage you are experiencing without a direct teacher, but everything that happens is just as its ment to, so try not to worry about what's happening too much, it's a natural unfoldment of the very thing you are looking for (its never what we are expecting it to be hay...) I am without a direct external guide at present, and I am uncertain if I will ever have one again, or if it is appropriate for me any more, external attachments and all that jazz haha, any way I digress...

So you are starting to question 'everything' what is really real and what is not... this is a question that is a bit complex to answer...

But, everything is both real and unreal, but this very much depends on the context of your question, i am taking the assumption that you are asking about 'maya' the manifest (material) universe, maya is the sanskrit word for the manifest universe and translates into English as 'the great illusion', and if you think about it, without the five senses of the manifest body, sight, hearing, taste, touch and smell, if we remove these senses, then the universe ceases to exist... hence how the practice of shanmukhi mudra came about...

But I am aware that I may be in danger of sharing too much, so let me know if you are happy for me to talk further about this, I am sensing that you are experiencing a lot more than you are saying, you are testing the water to see if you get any appropriate nibbles haha

It would be good to know what you are practicing and for how long.

But remember that if what you are experiencing starts to become too much, dile it back or cease practicing altogether for a while until things become more agreeable, if you have already done this and things are still elevating, then share this info with me, if you don't ask...

I love

Yogabuzz108
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Wil

Sweden
59 Posts

Posted - Jun 12 2021 :  6:26:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Yogabuzz108

Om Wil,

Well both these things are true, but don't worry I'm not going to give you a bull answer to this question, as we progress, and it must be difficult to be at the stage you are experiencing without a direct teacher, but everything that happens is just as its ment to, so try not to worry about what's happening too much, it's a natural unfoldment of the very thing you are looking for (its never what we are expecting it to be hay...) I am without a direct external guide at present, and I am uncertain if I will ever have one again, or if it is appropriate for me any more, external attachments and all that jazz haha, any way I digress...

So you are starting to question 'everything' what is really real and what is not... this is a question that is a bit complex to answer...

But, everything is both real and unreal, but this very much depends on the context of your question, i am taking the assumption that you are asking about 'maya' the manifest (material) universe, maya is the sanskrit word for the manifest universe and translates into English as 'the great illusion', and if you think about it, without the five senses of the manifest body, sight, hearing, taste, touch and smell, if we remove these senses, then the universe ceases to exist... hence how the practice of shanmukhi mudra came about...

But I am aware that I may be in danger of sharing too much, so let me know if you are happy for me to talk further about this, I am sensing that you are experiencing a lot more than you are saying, you are testing the water to see if you get any appropriate nibbles haha

It would be good to know what you are practicing and for how long.

But remember that if what you are experiencing starts to become too much, dile it back or cease practicing altogether for a while until things become more agreeable, if you have already done this and things are still elevating, then share this info with me, if you don't ask...

I love

Yogabuzz108



Hello Yogabuzz,

I think you lost me here. First, when you say both things are true. Do you mean dualism and non-dualism? If you do, that really explains all my struggles in a sense heh. I would rather not like to expand on that subject myself unless self inquiry brings me here though but please expand as much as you like on non-dualism especially if you think it is related. For me, this post is mostly about sharing right now because as you said, no external gurus for us. You can be my guru, talk to me.

Secondly, yes I am experiencing more than I write, we all do :), but I know what you mean. Non-dualism to me, seems best left unexplained and I handle it like scenery (just letting it pass), I mean can it be explained? Viva experience! And again, please give me advice related to non-dualism if that seems relevant.

My practices right now are 18 min dm, 10 min of Samyama, followed by rest of about 15 min.

Peace and love
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Dogboy

USA
1848 Posts

Posted - Jun 12 2021 :  9:22:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
“i don’t know what to believe” and and other dodges are okay, especially if you are noticing negativity bubbling up, and conversation is morphing into something unpleasant. There is nothing to be gained from social confrontation amongst family and friends (in this generalized situation). You always have the option to attempt to steer conversation in a more favorable way, and self inquire the negativity bubbles within at some future sitting.
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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 12 2021 :  10:49:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Om Wil,

I wrote this before I saw your latest reply. But I am happy to talk about more.

It sounds like your consciousness is awakening, what is also referred to as the witness capacity/state, which is something that lays at a place beyond the constraints, understanding and comprehension of the mind, and as such, as you have found, trying to explain what you are experiencing to the average person is a futile endeavor, because you are trying to put the formless into form, its a bit like that kiddies Toy where there's all those different shaped blocks which has corresponding holes that they fit through, it's like trying to put the square shape into the round hole, it doesn't fit, and if you force it though, it shaves all the edges off and it becomes round again... basically they aren't able or capable of understanding what you are trying to tell them.

And as you are experiencing, when the witness capacity starts to dawn, we start to see more than we were aware of before, and this comes with a realisation of what was before it, ie. Because we are transitioning to a place beyond the mind, we see a deeper reality of everything, which includes (I don't know how far though the process you are, so my answer will be assuming that it's just starting for you) the knowledge that everything you used to think was real, isn't what you thought it was, (I did post something on another post on here trying to explain what happens when we move into the witness state, I'll try and find it and add it to the end of this post as I think it may help) the thing to remember Will is, nothing's changed, you are still living in the same world you always was, rather all that's changing is your level of awareness; and when this starts, we naturally begin to question everything, because before you knew what you are now starting to see, it was your reality, and this process can bring up a lot of doubt about everything, because, you used to think what you knew before was real, and now you are moving into a place where you can see a deeper level of real, something that feels more real than what you previously knew as real, a new reality, and this can bring up the question, which one is really real then, because you thought your previous state was real, and now you are in a new state of reality, so which one should I believe as being really real... and so on...
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Wil

Sweden
59 Posts

Posted - Jun 14 2021 :  7:28:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Dogboy

“i don’t know what to believe” and and other dodges are okay, especially if you are noticing negativity bubbling up, and conversation is morphing into something unpleasant. There is nothing to be gained from social confrontation amongst family and friends (in this generalized situation). You always have the option to attempt to steer conversation in a more favorable way, and self inquire the negativity bubbles within at some future sitting.



Om namah shivaya or Amen to that. I really really appreciate you taking time to see what I write.
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Wil

Sweden
59 Posts

Posted - Jun 14 2021 :  8:33:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Yogabuzz108

Om Wil,

I wrote this before I saw your latest reply. But I am happy to talk about more.

It sounds like your consciousness is awakening, what is also referred to as the witness capacity/state, which is something that lays at a place beyond the constraints, understanding and comprehension of the mind, and as such, as you have found, trying to explain what you are experiencing to the average person is a futile endeavor, because you are trying to put the formless into form, its a bit like that kiddies Toy where there's all those different shaped blocks which has corresponding holes that they fit through, it's like trying to put the square shape into the round hole, it doesn't fit, and if you force it though, it shaves all the edges off and it becomes round again... basically they aren't able or capable of understanding what you are trying to tell them.

And as you are experiencing, when the witness capacity starts to dawn, we start to see more than we were aware of before, and this comes with a realisation of what was before it, ie. Because we are transitioning to a place beyond the mind, we see a deeper reality of everything, which includes (I don't know how far though the process you are, so my answer will be assuming that it's just starting for you) the knowledge that everything you used to think was real, isn't what you thought it was, (I did post something on another post on here trying to explain what happens when we move into the witness state, I'll try and find it and add it to the end of this post as I think it may help) the thing to remember Will is, nothing's changed, you are still living in the same world you always was, rather all that's changing is your level of awareness; and when this starts, we naturally begin to question everything, because before you knew what you are now starting to see, it was your reality, and this process can bring up a lot of doubt about everything, because, you used to think what you knew before was real, and now you are moving into a place where you can see a deeper level of real, something that feels more real than what you previously knew as real, a new reality, and this can bring up the question, which one is really real then, because you thought your previous state was real, and now you are in a new state of reality, so which one should I believe as being really real... and so on...



Okay to emphasize. Yoganis lessons on why Self inquiry before the witness state is, in my own words, the gold I wish was common sense in the world. Then the witness and how to get a chance to get visited by it would also need to be common sense yay. No kiddies toy where you hopelessly try to fit the square shape into the circle hole, that is way outdated now we have online videogames :P

I even doubted what you wrote here in your second paragraph because of my new defence mechanism. I am so used to people speaking. People, speaking, speaking and speaking. I don't blame them, speaking is a big part of what we got for communication...buuuuut I do not fully trust anyone or even myself'(yet) with the wise words of how to conduct in this world with regard to it(non dualism), god, presence or whatever creed there is out there. With respect to non dualism, art or unintentional implicit communication seems more calm and appealing to me now. Grounding, grounding and grounding.

Om Yogabuzz. Btw, I recently realized the phonetic connection between "IYAM", "Amen" and "Om".
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SeySorciere

Seychelles
1325 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2021 :  06:44:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Will,

It is also common that after you have experienced an opening and realization, it broadens your perspective and likely negate your previous beliefs, then you end up with "I don't know anything anymore" - a good place to be. I am often there.


Sey


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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2021 :  8:46:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
So (did) you realise that they are all interpretations of the the original vibration that created all the subsequent elements of the manifest universe? Or (did) you realise that they all sound similar and deduced, om, amen and I am have the same sound vibration, so thay are all different interpretations of the same sound?
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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 19 2021 :  7:00:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
[/quote]Om namah shivaya or Amen to that. I really really appreciate you taking time to see what I write.
[/quote]

Om Will,

There's very few that give me
reason to descend into the noise... but I am (being made) aware of you...
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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 19 2021 :  7:26:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Yogabuzz108

So (did) you realise that they are all interpretations of the the original vibration that created all the subsequent elements of the manifest universe? Or (did) you realise that they all sound similar and deduced, om, amen and I am have the same sound vibration, so thay are all different interpretations of the same sound?

I am asking this question to ascertain your level of evolution, as I am aware you are hiding....

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Yogabuzz108

United Kingdom
30 Posts

Posted - Jun 19 2021 :  9:00:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Seat (yourself) at centre of the heart, and from this place, feel what is (right),
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