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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 05 2005 : 4:08:06 PM
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Hi All:
Here is another kechari discussion from my email. If the "white spots" mentioned are not callousing related to frenum trimming or tongue stretching, I'm not sure what it would be. Perhaps our resident experts can add some perspective on this.
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Q1:
Humbly I am asking you for help, as this is really a very difficult situation for me.
For some time I am practising Khechari, but right now I am at some turning point: I don't know how to proceed as doubts are overpowering me.
First I would like to summarize what I did till today:
Maybe 2 years ago I recognized the necessity of Khechari. So I started bending my tongue back. As time went by, my efforts increased. Sometimes my tongue hearted in the morning, may be because of bending too much. But I never cared too much for that. In this way month by month went by, and there was some progress.
This summer, a dear (who is translating your webpage into German at the moment) has drawn my attention to your webpage. There we studied your recommendations for achieving Khechari. After thinking about it some time, I started snipping a little. Till now I did it 4 times, always carefully and not too much. Sometimes there was very little blood, but not more.
However doubts are overpowering me again and maybe you can help me to overcome them with some additional information.
1. On my tongue's bottom side, there emerged some white dots. I first noticed these dots a long time before I even thought of snipping - to be honest, they appeared slowly after I started bending my tongue back. Did I bend too much? But why are these dots at such a high position? I would have expected that during bending the frenum, most stress is near the tongue's root. However more and more white dots came forward, or existing ones got more detailed, as soon as I started snipping - although I used to cut the frenum at some points closer to the tongue's root. To describe the situation a little clearer, I am attaching some photos.
http://www.imagesharing.com/out.php...ngueback.jpg
http://www.imagesharing.com/out.php...tongueup.jpg
http://www.imagesharing.com/out.php...whitedot.jpg
2. My frenum is not very distinct, more or less it seems to be embedded into the tongue's muscles. How, and where would you recommend may the next cuts? The photos should make a good picture of this, too.
Thank you very very much!
A1:
Thank you for writing and sharing. It sounds like you are determined to move ahead with kechari. That is a good thing if it comes from bhakti (divine desire) flowing out from deep meditation, spinal breathing pranayama and other practices. On the other hand, kechari for its own sake does not do well as a stand-alone practice. Hardly anything in yoga does, except deep meditation. Kechari is very much a later stage development that can take already awakened energies much further. This is discussed in several recent postings I did in the AYP forums,
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=611
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=612
I encourage you to keep up with the kechari (and all) discussions in the AYP forums and raise your questions there too.
On the white spots, I have not experienced that in the same way. Then again, I have not focused on heavy bending of the tongue as you describe, so what you are experiencing may be normal for that. I can tell you that as the tiny tendons of the frenum are snipped and come back up to the surface days or weeks later, they do form a white callous along the ridge of the frenum. So maybe your white spots are related to callous forming like that. If not, then the mystery remains. If you have any suspicion of an infection, I suggest no more heavy stretching or snipping until you address it medically. If there is ongoing inflammation or pain, do see a doctor.
One more thought on this. There are saliva glands in the bottom of the tongue, on either side of the center. It is possible that if you are stretching these that they could show some visual effects like callousing (whiteness). That would be symmetrical on either side of the frenum. Not sure exactly where your spots are. I experienced that many years ago, and it amounted to nothing.
Regarding what to do next, I suggest taking your time. Rome was not built in a day. That is especially true with kechari. I have been snipping on and off of over 20 years. So be cool, do your meditation, pranayama and other yoga practices, and see what bhakti comes from within. Maybe you are at that stage of bhakti already and that is what is driving you toward kechari. If so, then continue to go for it, but pace yourself. Bhakti is wonderful, but does not always have our health and well-being in mind. All it wants is enlightenment right now and any cost. So there should be a compromise between strong bhakti and common sense to assure that we will be in a long term solution, rather than a shooting star that will light up the night and disappear as quickly as it came.
Your photos look like you are pretty close to going up behind the soft palate. Try that with finger help to the left or right side (shortest distance) as discussed in the lessons. Once you get behind the soft palate, push the tongue forward like you are sticking your tongue out, and it should slide right up into stage 2. That forward pushing is a trick that has helped others who do not get the immediate grabbing of the tongue by the soft palate and are a bit unsure which direction to go once behind there. There comes a time when the focus should shift from stretching and snipping to actually going up there with what we have.
On snipping frenum tendons not clearly exposed, you might want to check David's tooled talavya topic in the forum.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=497
There are some related and follow-up topics also which you can find with a search. While it is not a technique I can whole-heartedly recommend due to its aggressiveness, tooled talavya is there for anyone's consideration. It will enable you to go deeper and get those tendons. It is your choice.
Would you mind if I post this email exchange (anonymously) in the forum so others might benefit? You may receive some additional feedback that way too. There is at least one doctor reading, and that might bring some answers on the white spots. I can also include the photos as links, or not, let me know. The idea is to share and draw information from as many sources as possible. Then everyone wins.
I wish you all success on your chosen spiritual path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
Q2:
Thank you very much for your detailed reply, it is really very helpful.
Indeed it is Bhakti that pulled my tongue back during yoga practice. Due to some ecstatic feeling, there is this desire for pulling more and more. And finally it works: I can really feel the increase of progress, when Yoga is practiced with support of forceful Khechari.
But of course you are right: nothing can be enforced over night. I am trying my best not to do too much, but it feels so good.
And I am so thirsty for that freedom; I know it will come as time is getting ripe.
To come back to the white dots, I made some additional photos that show the current situation a little clearer.
http://www.imagesharing.com/out.php...itedots2.jpg http://www.imagesharing.com/out.php...itedots3.jpg
Actually the dots are effectively at the frenum's left and right, and therefore it might be logical that they are saliva glands that changed its colour. Only if I touch them, they hurt a little. May be this is a necessary information, too. But there was no infection after snipping, I believe, as I cut at completely different places.
Regarding helping with the finger, I made a photo.
http://www.imagesharing.com/out.php...ngerback.jpg
There you can see that I am really quite close to move up, but although I tried to push the tongue forward as you described, still my tongue is a little too limited at the bottom and therefore not loose enough for going back behind the soft plate, I think. For sure I will continue practicing.
Interestingly it seems like I am having no problem to go deep and pass through the middle of the soft plate, to move up afterwards. Passing the soft plate at the side seems unnecessary. I really wished the remaining limitations had already disappeared, so that I really could go up...
But as you recommended, I will take the necessary time for the next steps. Carefully I will consider tooled talavya, or may be I will continue by ordinary snipping. If I remove the surrounding tongue's flesh with my fingers, the remaining frenum appears - ready for being cut.
Once again, I would like to thank you whole-heartedly for your great work, and personal support. If you think it will help others, please feel free to publish this mail correspondence (including the photos of your own choice) anonymously on your webpage.
A2:
Those new photos indicate the white spots are along the ridge of the frenum, which may be related to a stretching and callousing effect. So it is not likely the saliva glands, which are further off to the sides on the bottom of the tongue.
If you go to the left or right side and up with the finger help, you will find the distance to be much less for getting behind the soft palate. The time to push forward is after the tip of your tongue goes behind the soft palate.
It looks like you are close. Still, take it at an easy pace, making sure not to overdo.
The guru is in you.
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2005 : 4:26:16 PM
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| I had those same white spots when I was doing alot of active stretching of my tongue. They are from tiny cracks in the surface from pulling and stretching the tongue. They are no big deal and went away when kechari became comfortable and I no longer needed to actively stretch my tongue manually. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2005 : 4:39:28 PM
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Yogani said:
Then again, I have not focused on heavy bending of the tongue as you describe, so what you are experiencing may be normal for that.
Hello Yogani + Mystery Clipper,
I experienced a number of white dots too (about three or four in total) about three quarters of the way up the tongue. They may be simply an artifact of heavy clipping. They went away eventually and seem entirely harmless.
Maybe they are an artifact of aggressive clipping, because Yogani did not get them but I did -- or maybe they are just an artifact of bio-individuality.
Yogani said:
I can tell you that as the tiny tendons of the frenum are snipped and come back up to the surface days or weeks later, they do form a white callous along the ridge of the frenum. So maybe your white spots are related to callous forming like that.
This is exactly what I think they are. I never got a 'full' white callous like Yogani speaks of. Rather, the frenum came to the surface and presented there as a paler pink than the surrounding tongue -- indicating the presence, I think, of some capilliaries in the frenum. Perhaps Yogani's frenum presented with almost no capilliaries close to the surface and was white -- the cause of the difference could be slower clipping, or bio-individuality. These white spots on this person's tongue may be regions where there are fewer capilliaries than in other places.
Incidentally, I've been mentioning that I have the impression that milking the tongue tends to help to densely pack the frenum fibers near the surface and I think it reduces the (already very small) number of capilliaries there, and thus make the aggressive clipping more effective. But it might not matter so much for the regular (slow) clipping regime.
So perhaps the stretching itself (even without the clipping) can be enough to change the density of capilliaries near the surface and produce white spots like this. This could explain this person's experience of some white spots before clipping.
I hope that helps,
Regards,
-D
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 05 2005 : 4:48:01 PM
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Victor and I posted simultaneously. His explanation seems just as likely as mine -- but one thing we agree on anyway -- they are harmless and go away. |
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Kechari -- White Spots
