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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 26 2005 : 1:33:01 PM
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@ David
In the khechari Mudra thread ( http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=359 )
you wrote about a technique called "tooled talavya kriya".
Im interested in this method. It would be nice if you could explain the way how you practice it. Would you do that?
Thanks
oli
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2005 : 6:30:17 PM
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Hi Oliver,
yes, I'd be happy to tell you how I did it, or should say, do it. Firstly, 'tooled talavya' is only a name I have made for the technique, which I evolved myself.
quote:
>>> (I call it 'tooled talavya'.) But I'm not going to post it up for general use, (at least not now -- I may convince myself to later) because I think it requires more skill than the cuticle-snipper-based method in order to do it well. This alternative technique though allows for much more significant, and therefore much faster frenum-snipping, and is particularly helpful when the frenum no longer protrudes from the surface of the underside of the tongue, as in my case.
OK, so I have been convinced to put it up. So let's be clear that this is a sort of heavy-duty way that I clip my frenum. It requires more skill and allows more rapid progress in the clipping. All the usual comments about self-pacing apply. Most people probably will not need or want to do this, and many people might be well advised not to. In general, the complete removal of the frenum is not needed for even advanced Kechari practice. ( See the comments from Yogani below.)
But in my particular case, I started meditating about 20 years ago, and if I had known about frenum-snipping then I would certainly have done it. I even clipped once or twice without being told, as I mentioned before on the forum. I might have done it gradually then, if I had known it was a practice, I don't know, but in any case I feel ready to catch up with a more rapid snipping. (It seems that some strange 'karma' stopped me finding out about frenum-snipping through all those years, because I moved in Yogic and even Kriya-yoga circles, read various books, but happen to have omitted certain well-known ones that talk about frenum-snipping!)
I actually started doing faster snipping in two different ways, and I'll talk about them both. First, I started to do chunkier snipping, using the cuticle snipper -- I'm calling the technique 'grasp and clip'.
WARNINGS AND DISCLAIMER -- This is not advice to anyone to follow my lead. This practice is doing minor surgery on oneself and carries risks. I estimated the risks for myself, based on my own skill and knowledge set, and cannot tell you definitively what those risks are; I am not a surgeon or doctor, and I am not any kind of expert in what these risks are. If you do this you may face higher risks based on, but not limited to the following: your ability to discern frenum from tongue, manual dexterity, eyesight, tongue abnormalities, different anatomy to mine, or even medical issues unkown to me, or other risks unknown. And if you are not an adult, be advised by me not to even think of doing this!
[If some people from outside the U.S. are looking in, they might think I am crazy, but I am not, I am protecting myself from being sued in this country which is a little crazy in some ways. I felt like adding "you may face additional risks based on possible lack of common sense", but I stopped short of it, figuring that, if the worst comes to the worst, that phrase would backfire by turning the jury against me.  ]
At the same time, having said all that, here are my beliefs on the matter. I don't personally think the risk of anything serious is very high. I personally think the risks of this are small potatoes compared to the risks of, say, rock climbing or scuba diving, or riding a motorbike or even driving a car. At the same time though, if you develop a significant infection, you should certainly go to a doctor to see if it needs to be treated.
If you do happen to do this, by the way, (and I am *not* advising you to) you should know what to do if you cause unexpected bleeding. This could happen if you inadvertently clipped even a minor vein for example. Simply apply pressure to the bleeding spot with a clean finger until it clots, which should be a few minutes. Or apply a clean pad made of cotton-wool or gauze to the wound and apply pressure to that.
Also, be sure to wash the mouth out afterwards with clean water and keep the area clean.
MY HEAVIER CLIPPING PRACTICE - 'Grasp and clip'
What I started to realize is that I could make a nice, careful cut in the frenum by grabbing some frenum between my thumb and index finger of my left hand (I am right-handed) and using a little pressure between finger and thumb to make a thin vertical ridge of frenum. Then, while still holding this little ridge of frenum with my left hand, I brought the cuticle-snipper in with my right hand and clipped that ridge just above the finger and thumb that were holding it. I was careful not to make the ridge so big, or try to clip so much that the cuticle-snipper would not cut through it all in one clip. I did this while looking in the mirror at it all so I could see what I was doing.
[It can be a little tricky. The hard bit is probably not getting the grip of a ridge of frenum; the hard bit is using the right hand to get the snipper over the gripping left hand without obscuring the gripped ridge of frenum. This can be done though --- the right hand slides the clipper OVER the gripping fingers of the left hand and keeps itself down and out of the way. It does require holding the clipper lower down on the handle, so that it is the clipper (not the fingers of the right hand) that extends over the gripping fingers of the left hand. The fingers of your right hand would obscure your view, but the clipper is small and thin enought not to. As usual, you may need to tilt your head up a little while looking in the mirror.]
Having done that, I had a little hole in my frenum. Then I extended this slit by grabbing it again but this time including one end of the slit in what I grabbed, so that a clipping action extended the hole or slit.
If you don't understand what I mean by extend it, to get a better sense of what I was doing, imagine trying to cut a wide horizontal slit in a thick curtain using a cuticle snipper, which can only cut a small slit. A way to do this is to make a little ridge in the curtain between two fingers, clip the ridge with the snipper. Now, you might want to make the slit wider than you have so far. So now you make another ridge which includes one end of the last cut (either the right or the left end), and clip that. This extends the slit. And you can repeat, acheiving symmetry by working on the other side.
If one were to do this, one would have to be careful to be getting frenum all the time in that ridge, and no tongue proper with its veins and arteries. Some things work in your favor here to make that less likely -- the frenum does not hurt so much when clipped, but the rest of the tongue does hurt a lot. Also, the frenum gets hard when taut, but the rest of the tongue does not so much. If you start in the middle and clip, as you get closer to the tongue proper, you would naturally want to make smaller and smaller clips.
Having made one slit across the frenum like that, if it was not too deep I found I could enter it again and repeat the process, making a deeper slit.
I have also tried entering the slit again a few days later, but I backed away from that. That is because the fibers tend to be densely packed near the surface on a healed frenum, but less so further under the surface. So, deeper it could be both sorer and there would not be so many fibers per unit depth. So there would be more slobber, blood and discomfort, and less payoff. I figured it was better to wait the week or two for it all to heal and the surface to collect a dense pack of fibers. The milking the tongue (which I do but not in the shower, but rather I simply use a cotton handkerchief to help grab my tongue) seemed to help to speed up getting the fibers up to the surface. But one might not want to bother milking the tongue for the first day or two after a significant snipping.
I found that heavier clipping did produce a lot of tongue extension, and pretty quickly. This continued while there was always some ridge of frenum on the surface.
But with the frequent clipping, the frenum diminished quickly, and eventually the ridge/bulge disappeared. With the ridge/bulge gone, it was difficult to clip using the heavier-clipping method. At this point, when I stretch my tongue upwards, the frenal area in the middle is actually now in a groove rather than a ridge, with the venous tongue area bulging on either side.
There were still plenty of limiting frenum fibers and they were still on the surface and under it, but no longer in a ridge.
In this case, however, a fact of my anatomy came to my aid.
[Now, many people would probably find that their tongue extension was fine when they were at this point. So many people would not have any need to go further.]
This is when I devised what I called 'tooled talavya'. I think I have seen a version of 'talavya kriya' in which the tongue is pulled out and scraped on the lower teeth. Even in normal talavy kriya, the frenum is ultimately cut on the lower teeth. What I devised is a more efficient and decisive version of this kind of action.
What I discovered is that when I pulled the tongue out, making it a little taut, the frenum would tend to bulge out a little, but at the bottom, close to where the lower teeth would cut it if it were scraped on them.
ENTER 'TOOLED TALAVYA'
What I called 'tooled talavya' is pulling the tongue out, making it taut, and cutting the frenum where it is taut at the bottom, pretty much where it would touch the lower teeth if you tried to scrape it on them. Now, how to cut it? A knife is not quite the right tool because it is not focussed enough. Neither is the cuticle-snipper any more. I figured I needed to make my own. What I came up with is a small sharpened screw-driver.
The screw-driver itself is very small, about 6 cm long, with a 2.5-mm 'head'. What I did was turn that flat head into a roughly semi-circular blade. This is ideal and corresponds roughly to a very sharp small tooth. For this I got a file, and sculpted it down to the desired shape. The file, however, while good for the initial shaping, may not be good for the sharpening; I acquired a sharpening 'stone' in a hardware store. You should follow the manufacturer's instructions on the stone for the sharpening. For mine you use oil or water, hold the blade at a certain angle, and scrape in a certain way. For the stone I have, you scrape forward with the blade, almost as if slicing into the stone at a sharp angle. So once I had the initial rough shape it became a case of sharpening (using the stone) each time I wanted to do the tooled talavya (the blade will blunt by itself between uses). Because the blade is semi-circular (roughly) it requires a sharpening process that approaches from many different angles, and you want to do it on both sides of the blade. You'd need to have certain intuitions about how to acheive this.
(Maybe someone can find an instrument just as appropriate that is available ready-made. If they did I'd be happy to learn about it. The best I was able to come up with was this.)
I cut a square out of a cotton handkerchief about 6 cm each side. This I used in my left hand in order to grab my tonge near the tip and pull it out. You could also use a light glove for this purpose -- you just need something with which to get a grip on the slippery tongue. But a full-sized handkerchief is not good because it will obscure your view as you do the procedure looking in the mirror.
Now I looked in the mirror and surveyed the part of my tongue in question. When I pulled, a ridge/band came up there and it was taut. While still looking at it all in the mirror, I brought the sharpened screwdriver up with my right hand, and began to cut a slit cross-ways on this band.
This took a little getting used to. Line of sight and angle is a little tight and you need good lighting. But what I found was that after the initial entry, it became much easier, as the first slit is a guide for the rest of it.
Once I got under the skin, I found that the cutting action is more like scraping than normal cutting. In this technique, I scrape the fibers with the edge of the blade and they break. All the while, I keep the tongue pulled with the other hand so the fibers are taut. If you imagine carpet embedded in flesh, and having to cut that carpet, the process is a little like that. Or more like cutting across a piece of twine embedded in flesh. I sometimes found, while I was cutting, the need to hone the blade further -- the blade was not necessarily uniformly sharp and needed some more work when approaching from a certain angle, etc.
How did I make sure I was cutting the right thing? Some things work in my favor. One is of course that I cut where it was taut. The other thing is the scraping action and the feeling of it, which guides me. The cutting even makes a 'tink-tink' or 'thunk-thunk' sound as the fibers break. So you get used to the feel of cutting the frenum, and it doesn't really hurt.
As I started to approach the sides of the band of frenum it would start to get sore, warning me off from cutting into the tongue. But I worked here very carefully and completed the cut to the edge of the band.
I think I would usually go about 1.5 - 2 mm deep. If you go much further, the phenomenon is as described above -- it gets more sensitive, more bloody, and you get less fibers because they are less densely packed. So I sometimes re-trimmed a few hours or even a day later, but then that was the end of it until it healed fully.
The process takes me now about 15-20 minutes, including all sharpening. I am doing it about every 2 weeks.
Regarding tongue extension history, by the time I had to start using tooled talavya, I found that almost all the remaining fibers at the bottom were almost equally limiting, which suggests to me that my extension will be pretty much on a plateau until they are all gone. And that is pretty much what I am finding. I've been doing tooled talavya for maybe three months now, and there has been a lot of progress in getting the amount of remaining frenum smaller and smaller, but not much gain in extension until maybe a few more months when it should all be gone.
QUESTION
Q. Could you have used tooled talavya rather than heavy clipping in the earlier stages?
I think I could. I'm not sure about the relative merits of the techiques when they are both possible. However, my own subjective sense in my case is that I am personally actually safer from inadvertantly cutting a vein doing 'tooled talavya' than the 'grasp-and clip' technique I mentioned above. This is because the cutting in tooled talavya is always gradual, a fraction of a millimeter at a time as you scrape down into the frenum. Like cutting a carpet, you always know whether carpet is there or not. After an initial learning process you can get very good at tooled talavya.
Notes and further CAUTIONS on the instrument:
Again I am not advising anyone to follow my lead but if they do, I'd like to make add a few cautions about the instrument and its use.
Obviously, clean/sterilize the instrument before use.
I would caution people against using an instrument with a very small head for the purpuse, such as a jeweller's screwdriver. Such heads are so small that if sharpened, the instrument would be like a nail. If you stabbed yourself deeply with such a thing, you could create a risk of tetanus. So don't make something you could easily stab yourself deeply with and leave a closed wound. The objective is a clear open wound, with which tetanus is not a risk.
The instrument should be sharp, but doesn't need to be *that* sharp, and probably should not be. There is some safety gained from the fact that it is not too sharp. Sharp enough to cut a carpet, but not scalpel sharp.
Obviously, such an instrument should be kept well away from children. Also be aware, if you make such a thing , that you have something that could be considered a dangerous weapon in certain cases, and indeed, could easily be mistaken for one, as sharpened screwdrivers have been used as weapons in hold-ups. In particular, don't make the mistake of carrying such a thing with you on your person or in your hand-luggage as you try to board a plane!!!
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And so there they are, 'grasp-and-clip' and 'tooled talavya'.
I hope someone finds that helpful. Or, if not helpful, entertaining. 
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Mar 10 2006 11:54:06 AM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2005 : 1:30:43 PM
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Hi David:
Perhaps it should be pointed out that, for vast majority of us, the complete removal of the frenum is not a prerequisite for entering stage 2 kechari and beyond. In fact, some folks (like Victor) do not have to remove any frenum at all to move above the soft palate. In my case, only a little trimming was necessary, and I am still working on it a little bit now and then some 20 years after first entering stage 2 kechari -- driven more by undulating waves of bhakti than any physical requirement.
While trimming the frenum, at least a little, is certainly a factor for many of us in achieving higher kechari, it is not everything. In fact, with some specific knowledge about where, how and in what direction to go, many who may not think they can reach above the soft palate actually can right now -- it is much closer than most people realize. There can be other factors holding us back, and these are more related to our bhakti (spiritual emotions) than to our frenum. There is no doubt that reducing the frenum reduces the challenge of entry. But it is not "all or nothing" with the frenum, and I think you would agree that kechari is not mainly about removing the frenum, but about following the bhakti upward.
I say all this just to reduce the possibility for any confusion to arise about the means and the end. Everyone has their own unique circumstances in this. As you point out -- one approach does not necessarily fit all. You are sharing your experience, which is quite unique. Some might regard it as extreme. But to each their own. A particularly cumbersome frenum might require such measures. Only the practitioner can know for sure.
My suggestion is:
1) Bhakti first - Deep in your heart you are itching to do this kechari thing. Preferably, that will be long after being well-grounded in deep meditation, spinal breathing and other mudras and bandhas.
2) Attempts with finger help going back and up with the tongue to the extreme left or right side of the back edge of the soft plate. You might be surprised what you can do with this.
3) Consider frenum trimming only as necessary to get up there. It may be very little. It was for me all those years ago. Maybe some will need more trimming, but it does not have to be "all" for entry. Once you are in, and on the ecstatic secret spot with your tongue, the frenum will fade in importance, and will only be addressed as and when bhakti to go higher surges. That may be next week, next year or next decade. No need to rush. It is bhakti and our evolving ecstatic experience that will define our progress in kechari, not the imperative of a physical alteration. From the perspective of a seasoned practitioner, kechari is not a physical act at all. It is a spiritual act.
This is not to throw cold water on anything you have shared, David. Your experience is valid for you, and may be for others. It is only to help temper it a bit with a longer view. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2005 : 1:58:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
This is not to throw cold water on anything you have shared, David. Your experience is valid for you, and may be for others. It is only to help temper it a bit with a longer view. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
Hello Yogani,
thanks. Yes, it is out there for people who might find it good for them. I've added a few more notes in there on why it probably would not be needed in general. I don't at all think you are throwing cold water on this, in fact I think you are very right to throw in all those qualifications and nuances about it. Whereas people may find it OK to do this for the right reasons, it is good for us to protect to what extent we can, against some people doing this for the wrong reasons, (or merely making the mistake of thinking that they are missing out by not doing it) and I am glad of any back-up in that effort to protect people from those mistakes.
By the way, the 'tooled talavya' may sound a little extreme, but in my case at least, as I was saying, counterintuitively, I actually find it less 'dodgy' than chunky-clipping with the clipper, which some people are doing here anyway already, for their own reasons. I think the nature and 'image' of the instrument and the preparation of it could cause some prejudices against tooled talavya. It's probably safer (with the right skill and use) than chunky snipping with the clipper ( but of course very modest clipping with the clipper, as you describe in the lessons, is surely safer still).
Note that in some settings in India, they use a knife for the purpose, which I would find a lot harder to use well and safely than the tool I made.
One of the reasons I put it out is that we are participating in an evolving knowledge set here and I want to do my best to play my part. Perhaps tooled talavya will come to be recognized in the long run as extremely useful in certain cases, but generally not necessary. Or perhaps it will prove itself useful to me and to me alone. But I think much more likely the former. Time (and the experiment made) will tell.
-David |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 27 2005 6:32:04 PM |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2005 : 09:58:02 AM
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Wow, what a great report.
quote:
I hope someone finds that helpful. Or, if not helpful, entertaining.
It was both-helpful and entertaining. At the moment Im trying to find out different ways to cut, so its great to hear about your advanced techniques.
Im not so advanced in snipping. I begann one week ago with it and at the moment in my case its really easy to do it. There is naturally a great ridge with a lot of fibres I can cut. But the ridge gets smaller and smaller. Thats why the "tooled talavya kriya" could be very interesting in some weeks.
What I didnt really understand is:
quote:
I think I would usually go about 3-4 mm deep
Is it right understanding that you cut (or scrap and scratch) 3-4mm deep into the tautest part of your flesh and because the flesh includes fibres and so these fibres break forever? ( At my beginning level I dont cut any flesh at all-just fibres and little skin. Thats why Im not shure about how its going on at further levels)
quote:
I've been doing tooled talavya for maybe three months now, and there has been a lot of progress in getting the amount of remaining frenum smaller and smaller, but not much gain in extension until maybe a few more months when it should all be gone
You get your frenum smaller and smaller but the extensions didnt gain? Why does less fibres not mean more extension? Why all fibres must be gone?
quote:
Maybe someone can find an instrument just as appropriate that is available ready-made. If they did I'd be happy to learn about it. The best I was able to come up with was this.)
What about a wood cutting tool? They look very similar to the screwdriver you descriped. There are so many different models-one should fit. You can also buy just the head (the knife) of the tool.
What I mean are this tools:
http://laden13.de/a30336.jpg
Today I will go to town and buy different cutting/scraping tools. Then I check out different methods and see which one fits best to me.
Perhaps my mouth is just to small (or my hands to big) to practice "tooled talavya kriya". I cant really see anything. But perhaps when Im used to it it will be easier. I will see.
Thanks for this report
oliver
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2005 : 6:15:39 PM
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Hello Ollie,
quote:
What I didnt really understand is:
quote:
I think I would usually go about 3-4 mm deep
Is it right understanding that you cut (or scrap and scratch) 3-4mm deep into the tautest part of your flesh and because the flesh includes fibres and so these fibres break forever? ( At my beginning level I dont cut any flesh at all-just fibres and little skin. Thats why Im not shure about how its going on at further levels)
First, maybe 3-4 mm is an overestimate (?) maybe it is only 1.5-2cm. I find it hard to tell also because the cut is shallower when taut and then it gets deeper when I release it. It's when I release it that it looks like around 3 mm. (By the way, I have now changed my estimates on the original report.)
Yes, but when I say flesh, I mean frenum flesh of course. There are a lot of fibers in it, and pretty much no nerves and very few blood-vessels. So it's close to painless and bloodless.
>> At my beginning level I dont cut any flesh at all-just fibres and little skin.
I think we are talking about really much the same thing. We might be giving different meaning to the word 'flesh' here. I don't mean muscle. Not the same perhaps as 'fleisch', if that is creating confusion. (?)
quote:
quote:
I've been doing tooled talavya for maybe three months now, and there has been a lot of progress in getting the amount of remaining frenum smaller and smaller, but not much gain in extension until maybe a few more months when it should all be gone
You get your frenum smaller and smaller but the extensions didnt gain? Why does less fibres not mean more extension? Why all fibres must be gone?
This is the situation I have found myself in at this point. It may have to do with the layout of my particular frenum. Let me make an analogy.
Supposed you are tied to tree with
a two strings that are 3m long
b five strings that are 4 m long
c ten strings that are 5 m long
d twenty strings that are 6 m long
and you try to get as far as you can from the tree. Firstly, it is only a., the two strings that are 3m long that matter. These are the 'most limiting' strings. When you cut these, you extend one meter and now the b. strings matter. When you cut the b strings, you extend one meter, and now the c. strings matter. So you cut the c. strings.
Now you are left with
d twenty strings that are 6 m long
and you won't get any further until they are all gone.
Now, you may find that when you have gone through the c. strings or earlier, you can get far enough from the tree and you don't need to snip any more. If you do, you are fine.
Well, in the situation I am in, I want to get further and I'll probably have to get through most or all of d. to get further. As far as I can see, only the d. strings are left, and they appear to be roughly equally-limiting, and they don't appear at the surface except at the bottom of my tongue.
(The reason I think that the d-strings are roughly equally limiting is that I think that tension on them is fairly uniform when I pull).
Now, I've explained this in a 'discrete' way, whereas it is continuous in practice but the same principle applies. In practice, the strings d. vary a little in length (but not much) and there are a few that are more limiting than the others. So I am gaining a little as I go through the d. strings.
One other thing, the a. strings correspond roughly to the frenal membrane. Very little clipping, big payoff. Also notice that there would be intense straining on the a. strings if you pull away when they are there, because there are only two of them. Likewise, when the frenal membrane is there, milking the tongue cannot be done comfortably because there is too much strain on too few fibers. It is only when the load gets distributed more that milking the tongue can be done.
quote:
What about a wood cutting tool? They look very similar to the screwdriver you descriped. There are so many different models-one should fit. You can also buy just the head (the knife) of the tool.
What I mean are this tools:
http://laden13.de/a30336.jpg
Thanks for the idea! Yes, I think you have something interesting here. I am not sure what size those tools are -- I don't have a definite sense of scale.
But I think you want a tool with a rounded tip. When we number them from the left, the only ones with a close- are 1,3 and 11. More round is better, and I think around 2.5 mm wide at the tip is probably best. The best looking by far seems to be 3. 1 and 11 seem too wide and 1 is hardly rounded enough. I'd look for something even more rounded than 3 if possible, and I think around a 2.5 mm tip ( number 3 looks noticeably wider but I can't tell the scale for sure).
But then your experience may be different. If you try it it will be interesting to hear what you find.
You mentioned you can get them without the handle. I'd be interested to hear what you find if best. Certainly, the handles shown seem to be too big for the purpose.
quote:
Perhaps my mouth is just to small (or my hands to big) to practice "tooled talavya kriya". I cant really see anything. But perhaps when Im used to it it will be easier. I will see.
It takes some getting used to. I don't see much either, but enough. As I was saying, line of sight and angle are quite tight. Feel is very important, and it tells you a lot. The important thing is to cut frenum, and frenum alone. And if your anatomy is like mine, to work lower down at the area I mentioned which seems to be clear of veins in my case. I'd be wary of doing tooled talavya closer to the top, because there tend to be veins on either side once you come up from the very bottom.
Do you have the same situation on the very bottom, where your lower teeth could cut your frenum if it were pulled out and scraped on them? No veins on either side of the frenum there?
quote:
Thanks for this report
Glad to help and if you try it, it will be interesting to see if it works for you. But observe all cautions and make sure to listen to what Yogani has said above. You aren't under any pressure!
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 28 2005 09:35:34 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2005 : 09:20:05 AM
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Hi Ollie,
I should say something about line of sight.
What I do (I am right-handed) is, with my left hand, pull my tongue out straight, then a little upwards and to the left. I tilt my head back a little, then I can see the relevant points of my tongue in the mirror.
-David |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2005 : 08:15:59 AM
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The tree-picture is nice. So its easy to understand.
quote:
Likewise, when the frenal membrane is there, milking the tongue cannot be done comfortably because there is too much strain on too few fibers. It is only when the load gets distributed more that milking the tongue can be done.
Yes that is what I discovered. The only thing I can feel while milking are about two strings in the front and middle.
quote:
But then your experience may be different. If you try it it will be interesting to hear what you find.
Im shure I will try this technique but the next days or weeks I will stay with the traditional method of snipping. At the moment it works perfectly.
quote:
You mentioned you can get them without the handle. I'd be interested to hear what you find if best. Certainly, the handles shown seem to be too big for the purpose.
I will report when I have tried.
quote:
Do you have the same situation on the very bottom, where your lower teeth could cut your frenum if it were pulled out and scraped on them? No veins on either side of the frenum there?
There are little veins yes, but just little.
Another thought: Could it be that you have cut to fast and that that is the reason why you have to go so deep into flesh?
I just wonder why traditionaly is said to cut once a week if you could cut twice a day.
Yogani said that the fibres re-arrange after cutting-in a sense there are "new" fibres on the surface and so you can cut them easily.
Perhaps if we cut to fast the fibres doesnt re-arrange and so we have to cut deeper.
To take the tree-picture:
Are the b-strings always b-strings or can they change into a-strings (or c-strings into b-strings.....)?
Oli
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Edited by - brauniver on Sep 30 2005 09:06:39 AM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2005 : 11:06:40 AM
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Hi Oli,
>> Another thought: Could it be that you have cut to fast and that that is the reason why you have to go so deep into flesh?
>> Yogani said that the fibres re-arrange after cutting-in a sense there are "new" fibres on the surface and so you can cut them easily.
First, I don't really cut so deep into the flesh. But I know what you mean. I'm cutting in a very particular way. I'm cutting where the frenum does not normally protrude (and I make it protrude by pulling). But the actual depth I go in in any cutting is not so far. Maybe I go in 1 mm or maybe 2 mm -- it's hard to say.
>> Perhaps if we cut to fast the fibres doesnt re-arrange and so we have to cut deeper.
The answer to your question though is, yes, I think that could be part of the story, or maybe even the whole story. Or maybe it is not that they don't rearrange at all if we cut quickly, but rather that they just need time to rearrange anyway.
I actually mentioned that possibility in an earlier post (I've just underlined it):
quote:
Another thing -- I've pretty much snipped away all frenum that is visible on the upper half of my tongue (when I put it 'up') and I've reached a limit there. I have to work on the bottom half to get anywhere now. I do know that Yogani did not have to do this---he was able to work on the top alone in order to get his tongue to any level of freedom that he needed. [It is possible that this condition is the result of the speed at which I have been snipping --- and that if I wait long enough, more fibers will be exposed at the tip. I don't know about this, and I don't need to, since there are still fibers well-exposed at the bottom that I can work on].
By my reading, Yogani came to the later stages of Kechari after more than a decade. So maybe that is why there was always time for fibers to come to the top?
>> To take the tree-picture:
>> Are the b-strings always b-strings or can they change into a-strings (or c-strings into b-strings.....)?
My first thought was not, but now I think I'll have to think about that. This, if true, would also mean that some of what I said earlier is over-simplified. I'll get back to that when (and if) I figure it out...
I do all of this in the spirit of a pioneer. I am happy to be a data point for later yogis, even if the outcome should ultimately be that it does not work very well. But so far, it seems to be working well and I am hopeful....
By the way, if you do use eventually a wood-cutting tool, if and when you do tooled talavya, one option to think of is to get a handle and saw off the bottom of it to make it smaller and more maneageble.
Best regards,
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 30 2005 1:28:26 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2005 : 11:24:13 AM
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>>Yes that is what I discovered. The only thing I can feel while milking are about two strings in the front and middle.
One thing I should maybe clear up (for some people, not necessarily Oli) is that the 'number of strings' in the tree analogy a..b..c..d is of course only an analogy. In practice, there are hundreds of tendon fibers, and also there is no clear division between a..b..c..d.
What Oli feels are two cords of tendon fibers. The many, tiny tendon fibers seem to arrange in cords. One tendon fiber by itself would probably break fairly easily.
-D |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2005 : 7:39:13 PM
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quote:
I do all of this in the spirit of a pioneer. I am happy to be a data point for later yogis, even if the outcome should ultimately be that it does not work very well. But so far, it seems to be working well and I am hopeful....
For me the whole discussion was very helpful. Im happy about some pioneers otherwise I never would have done that. Your knowlegde about the tongue anatomy is great and to practice khechari without guide isnt so nice I think.
quote:
By the way, if you do use eventually a wood-cutting tool, if and when you do tooled talavya, one option to think of is to get a handle and saw off the bottom of it to make it smaller and more maneageble.
I will not buy the whole thing... just the "knife" and put it on a small bottom.
I really like the khechari practice. Not only because of a result, also because the process is very "interesting" and "funny". |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2005 : 09:32:23 AM
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I got this private email from someone, and I thought I should share my response to it.
>>I re-read your toolshed talavya, and think that it will work better for me than my clipping. I'm going to do it, but need to get a sharpening stone. Why not a razor? Too flat? Too sharp? You'd just have to have good aim, which I do.
Toolshed talavya!! Ha ha good one!
I don't think a razor is the right tool at all. Yes, both too flat and too sharp.
Ultimately you are cutting a groove across your frenum, a few mm deep. Think about that. You need to make the groove deeper (inwards) and wider (left to right). The razor could work to start cutting, but where would it go then? The razor has one flat edge.
The sharpened rounded screw-driver is perfect. It can cut in all directions at the tip. It can fit into the groove and deepen it and widen it. You can cut deeper by scraping, and extend the edges of the groove too. You can cut deeper by pressing inward. You can't do that with the razor.
There are three other reasons why 'too sharp' is bad, which you can read if you are interested, but ignore if you are not: One is that you could cut some frenum too easily and it could sip and make a gash into your tongue. Another is that you want the resistance in order to feel that you are cutting frenum (which is hard), not tongue (which is soft). You'd probably feel little or no resistance from something surgically sharp -- not good for this practice where the resistance is being used to tell us where we are. The final other reason is that the less sharp a tool is, the more it hurts you when it cuts you. This helps us here too. ( You could make a deep cut into your finger with a scalpel and hardly feel it until after. (Vampire bats make use of this fact, and have razor-sharp teeth for their purpose...).) The frenum proper is very insensitive and can be cut easily with this not-too-sharp instrument and still not hurt. However, the ends of the groove you cut will start to border on tongue. You will want to extend the ends of the groove to get as much frenum as you can. That is when you want to be careful because you can get close to real tongue tissue. Fortunately it starts to get more and more sensitive as you get close to the tongue tissue, and I have found that I can trim right up to the limit. So the not-to-sharpness of the tool helps in this way in making a reading of where you are -- the pain will drive you away from cutting tongue.
The rounded screw-driver, not razor sharp, is perfect. It's not so sharp that you don't feel good resistence from your frenum, hardened by pulling. At the same time, it is sharp enough that you could cut your finger with it if you scraped it with it. You can make it as sharp as the hardening stone will allow you to make it. It won't be razor sharp though, just due to the nature of the stone and the non-surgical metal of the tool.
I made my rounded screw-driver from the red one of the pair HUSKY 20511. Google "HUSKY 20511 screwdriver" if and when this link breaks:
http://www.ehobbytools.com/index.ht...l&lang=en-us
I think the head is about 2.5 mm wide. I'll check it.
You may also be able to find a suitable wood-cutting tool, like Oli spoke of. My estimate of best thickness is now 2.5 mm, not 3 mm which I mentioned earlier on the forum (which I have corrected).
Hope that helps,
-D |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 28 2005 10:05:58 AM |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2005 : 5:11:22 PM
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I dont want to change the topic. Im just not sure where to add this comment.
There is one point Im not in agreement with yogani. I think the fibres can grow together again if they get cutted once. Why should they not grow together? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 31 2005 : 5:23:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by brauniver
I dont want to change the topic. Im just not sure where to add this comment.
Hello Oli,
you can make your own topic any time. Just hit the 'New Topic' link rather than the 'Reply to Topic' link.
quote:
Originally posted by brauniver
There is one point Im not in agreement with yogani. I think the fibres can grow together again if they get cutted once. Why should they not grow together?
Oh no, he's right--- AGAIN. Tendon fibers don't regrow when they are broken. This is well-known in medicine. A broken tendon-fiber is broken forever. Before the age of modern medicine, if people had a critical tendon completely severed in a limb, they would lose use of the limb forever! Nowadays they can do operations to replace it them.
You might be seeing something during the healing of the wound that gives you the illusion that the tendon fibers are reattaching, but they are not. What does happen is that the cut fibers seem to disappear (I think they just shrink into the tendon tissue and become undetectable), so there is no remaining appearance of cut fibers. Perhaps this is producing the illusion that they are rejoining.
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 31 2005 5:28:13 PM |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Nov 01 2005 : 09:48:44 AM
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quote:
Oh no, he's right--- AGAIN.
Okidoki! |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2005 : 5:28:57 PM
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| I observed it the days and for sure........... your are right. |
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"tooled talavya kriya"
