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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 09 2005 : 02:43:34 AM
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Hi all,
I have a problem for everyone but especially addressed to Yogani.
In the spinal breathing we are supposed to "allow your attention to travel upward inside a tiny thread, or tube, you visualize beginning at your perineum, continuing up"
What does it really mean here? Especially for a beginner like me. I can think of some possibilities:
1. Develop a sensation, literally "feel" the associated physical part of the body.
2. "imagine" or "visualize" that part, usually with some sort of pictures, but could be more subtle.
3. both 1 and 2 together.
To clarify my question, obviously we can only "put our attention" in the first sense within our body. We cannot literally feel the room we're in unless we see it or touch it, etc. I know of many ppl who claimed they have expand their "awareness/attention" to the outside, (some even to the whole universe), and yet cannot tell what's happening behind him/her, nor who's in the next room. Obviously then, what they mean is just a thought, a subjective feeling; not a literal sensation.
I think 1 or 3 makes more sense, otherwise how can we expect something "real" happen within those parts of our body? But I cannot feel clearly the inside of my spine (I suspect how many sensory cells there are, and whether we can actually feel the inside of the spine besides may be some pain), I can only put my attention on the nearby parts. Is it ok with that?
I am only that far in the practices, but I think there are more techniques about which I will have the same problem. The instruction "put your attention to...." can be confusing, and most books I've read do not explain much on this. Are there any simple rule for it?
To feel my hands are much easier, I can feel every inches of it. But not my spine (not to say the inside of it). As I see it, this is the case for most people. Strangely enough, ppl never ask this. The difference between the 3 interpretations could be huge, like that between "to imagine" and "to Do". Both the process, the difficulty, and the results are quite different, even though to "imagine and rehearse in the mind" actually helps the real thing!
If the answer is "it doesn't matter what way you do", at least are there any preference? Should I emphasis more on a "real" physical feeling?
Any experience is welcomed!
THANKS!
Alvin
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Edited by - aypmod2 on Nov 09 2005 06:46:12 AM |
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2005 : 07:27:24 AM
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Hi Alvin:
Spinal breathing begins as 2 - visualize, moves to 3 - feel and visualize (see lesson #63 for some clues), and ends up almost exclusively as 1 - feel, becoming much more than physical feeling -- more and more to unbounded feeling of ecstatic inner space (inner sensuality). All of this depends on resident inner silence cultivated (separately) in deep meditation.
It is a progression over time. Rome was not built in a day. Lili offered you some good advice in the other topic -- take it one step at a time. You will go far if you go slow and steady. Right now you are measuring in hours and days. That is understandable. This is all new! Later on you will be measuring in months and years. For those who are steady on the path, the experience of yoga keeps expanding endlessly, both inward and outward.
It is a joy to see you here. All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2005 : 07:04:30 AM
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Thanks very much!
I suppose, the reasons why we have to take it one step at a time are: we may not be able to digest so much at a time; too complicated practices may keep us from taking them regularly; and possibly some bad side effects like irritability (??).
I am just trying to prove for myself as soon as possible that these practices do indeed have great effects. Then I can go on with my life and practices without too much careful critical thinking. I have been looking for scientific researches on pranayama, and other yoga practices. But most of them are done by organizations somehow associated with yoga teaching, which mean they may not be objective enough.
Meditation is an exception, which was studied thoroughly and accepted even by the medical community as being effective, although it's yet not recognized widely as having such powerful effects as described here.
In short, there are really not enough information about these tranditional techniques. And here in Hong Kong even meditation is not common, not to say pranayama. I don't know anyone in person that practise these things. So these techniques(and their effects) are quite alien to me even though I read quite a number of them.
Somewhere in Satyananda's "Kundalini Tantra", he wrote that it may take a life time or even several life time to awake the kundalini! You could see that why I am skeptical about these techniques then.... After my investigation and experience with things like "Sahaja Yoga", I will not attempt techniques which are not "traditional" enough.
How wonderful it would be if the techniques(other than meditation) work. I don't care about side effects: they may actually prove for me that about their effects. I just worry that I make a wrong step so that I won't get results. Once I start feeling, say, the hot and cold currents; or if I experience something out of the scientific realm, it may start to change my perception about world! |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2005 : 09:42:57 AM
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quote:
I suppose, the reasons why we have to take it one step at a time are: we may not be able to digest so much at a time; too complicated practices may keep us from taking them regularly; and possibly some bad side effects like irritability (??).
If you progress too fast you can feel burnt out. Most of the AYP practices are designed to increase the energy flowing through your body, and, simultaneously, to increase the body's capacity for handling energy. You have to increase both these things gradually. If you overdo it, you can feel irritible, aloof, and lots of other mildly bad things. If you ignore these warnings, you can start feeling the way you'd expect to feel if you contained more energy than you could handle: headaches, feelings of being burnt inside, etc. The effects get worse if you ignore them.
Meditation is not as much about energy, but if you overdo it, you will have trouble living in the world (AYP recommends that you dive directly into worldly activities immediately after practice).
quote:
I am just trying to prove for myself as soon as possible that these practices do indeed have great effects. Then I can go on with my life and practices without too much careful critical thinking.
AYP is all about careful critical thinking all along. Self-pacing, and the careful self-observation required to do it effectively, is the heart of the practice, and it's important to understand. I'd suggest reading through the lessons to get a better sense of this.
I may be wrong, but your postings give the impression that you intend to grab a bit of this and a bit of that from AYP and to do things your own way with your own ideas. That's fine. But you also want to be assured that your practice will be safe and effective. If you want that assurance, you must do the practice exactly as it is suggested in the lessons. If you read carefully and follow all the instructions, I can assure you (and others will agree) this is the safest and most effective practice you can find. But even so, spiritual practice is always adventure travel.
quote:
In short, there are really not enough information about these tranditional techniques. And here in Hong Kong even meditation is not common, not to say pranayama. I don't know anyone in person that practise these things.
google:
"hong kong" "meditation center"
with the quotes and you'll find a lot.
quote:
Somewhere in Satyananda's "Kundalini Tantra", he wrote that it may take a life time or even several life time to awake the kundalini! You could see that why I am skeptical about these techniques then
if you're looking for guaranteed fast results of a specific type and a specific kind, like buying a carpet cleaner, you will not find that anywhere in the spiritual world. This is not a consumer product, and we don't do spiritual practices for achievement or attainment. If you feel deeply compelled to spiritual practice from deep within, do it and enjoy it and don't think of results. If you're looking to quickly enjoy interesting experiences and achieve things (which I'm getting the strong feeling you are, and which is fine) I'd suggest you practice martial arts (ask around about Mantak Chia, who teaches Taoist yoga and has many followers).
Kundalini itself offers you nothing useful in your day-to-day life. Kundalini is not a goal, it's a side effect. It's a tool that helps you on your journey to God, and it awakens when you reach a point where you deeply need that tool to proceed further. In your day to day life, kundalini is, if anything, a negative. It creates energy issues which you must manage. It's well worth it if you're using it as a tool. But as a "kick", you'd find it disappointing.
I'm not enlightened, but all indications are that enlightenment is the same. As Richard Baker (zen master) says, "why do you want to be enlightened? You may not even LIKE it!"
We proceed because we must. We're drawn to it insatiably. Spiritual practice doesn't work well as a cool thing to do for a while to get cool effects. If you're drawn to it, great. You've found a good practice! Read carefully and follow all instructions and totally forget about accomplishments. Do it like brushing your teeth.
quote:
it may start to change my perception about world!
It will, but the changes to your perceptions are not the goal, they're a side effect. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Nov 10 2005 09:55:46 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2005 : 12:52:10 PM
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Dear Alvin,
quote ' Meditation is an exception, which was studied thoroughly and accepted even by the medical community as being effective, although it's yet not recognized widely as having such powerful effects as described here.'
The reason why it does not have such powerful effects is because not all meditation gives the same results.The AYP meditation is basically the same as TM but combining it with the other techniques makes it much more effective and this is why you are cautioned to self pace.
The side effects that one gets are no indication whatsoever of your levels of spirituality.I have a lady student who claims she feels no different than when she started. Simply by things she says or her mindset indicates that she has indeed changed her consciousness but does not realise it.She experiences no side effects although some of my other students do.Quite frankly I consider her more spiritually inclined than the others.
quote ' Somewhere in Satyananda's "Kundalini Tantra", he wrote that it may take a life time or even several life time to awake the kundalini! You could see that why I am skeptical about these techniques then. '
Yes using some practices may take a long time to awaken the Kundalini or then again you can receive shaktipat for instant awakening.This still does not mean you are enlightened or any indication of levels of spirituality.The awakening is merely another step on the path.A greater indication is your changes to your personality.Greater compassion for others,desire to meditate,Bhakti,not thinking or stating bad thoughts about others.These are only a few but striving to improve yourself is vital on the path. There is a saying' If you want to see change in the world, first change yourself'. This wording may be not quite right but it 's not far off I believe.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2005 : 12:53:17 PM
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Thank you for your kind warning. But you somehow misunderstand my view point.
I don't personally know of anyone doing meditation. Certainly there are some centers here, but most are Buddhist meditation, others include TM, Sahaja, etc. The first yoga center was setup only 5 years ago, much later than USA. Most yoga centers are still not providing meditation classes. The center I am doing asanas do have some meditation classes (among the most unpopular classes!), but I don't quite like guided meditation.....
I do follow quite exactly according to the lessons: I switched my mantra to "I AM", meditate twice for 20 mins since my first posting. I have been sitting in siddhasana (and Mulabandha during asanas as encouraged by the asanas teacher here) before I come across these lessons, but still ask just to make sure my doings are compatible with the practices here. And sit in easy cross-legged pose again after Lili's kind advice. (even though, as I see it, it should not hurt to sit in siddhasana because I was sitting in that before anyway) I am just worrying that I may have too many questions (which may annoy some of you) concerning the details of the practices because of my worry about not being correct. What else do I miss?
I believe that it's better to know what the effects of an action are, if we choose to do it. Otherwise, it would like some additive behaviour. We brush our teeth mainly because it's good for our teeth--certainly effective for that, though not necessarily give us power. That's why we form our habit of brushing our teeth in the first place.
I am not saying that practices in Satyananda's book are not good because there is no guarantee. I am worrying that it's plainly some useless practices! Just like someone ask you to shake your legs: in this case we know instinctly it's useless because many ppl are shaking unconcsiously everyday! Are you asking me to believe all kinds of practices, without any sort of evidences other than someone's claims? I cannot do that no matter how you may comment on me. That's not a scientific approach. If a great guru or anyone tell me anything called "truth", I will not take that unless I can experience that; or it is tested scientifically. In the realm of yoga, experience is the more common means of testing, and that's why I'm here.
I was drawn to yoga for over a year, but the spirit of this AYP homepage separate it from most other approach and starts me up with the desire to practise things other than asanas. The reason why I am here is that these lessons take into account that we're modern people. As Yogani said, we need something that is EFFECTIVE. If yoga is to be user-friendly for the public rather than remains to be some esoteric practices, it has to be open-minded(without selling it with religious ideas like "the next life", unless you have a spiritual interpretation in stead of a literal one), start proving itself about its effectiveness, instead of preaching. AYP did make a big leap on that.
Still, I understand that without firm scientific studies available, I can only prove things for myself. What I would like to have quickly is something most of you don't need-- indications that these practices do work, not some powerful abilities,etc. For me, I brush my teeth not (just) because my mom taught me, but because it is a tested knowledge. Advanced Yoga techniques is not, because it's open to the public only quite recently, and very few ppl really practise. So a change of perception is a side effect for you, but it means more for me.
If yoga is not effective (ie. if the practices are not really "doing" something on us more so than shaking legs), than it's just another religion with doctrines replaced by useless techniques. If no "real" changes are happening, it would be the kind of subjective feeling similar to those terrorists who think they are going to heaven(except you will not hurt the others.) Indeed I don't think that is the case, because certain yogi (e.g. Swami Rama) has demonstrated something for us like stopping heart beats, changing state of mind and remain awake,etc (but some other demonstrations have certain "gap" More studies more needed to confirm, for the public, the effectiveness of yogic techniques)
Although the bliss and ecstasy may not be those in the usual sense, it's still something we urge for, right? So I guess we'll enjoy(or even more than "enjoy") what we're cultivating through these practices. That's what Yogani was trying to say. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2005 : 1:21:15 PM
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>> If yoga is not effective (ie. if the practices are not really "doing" something on us more so than shaking legs), than it's just another religion with doctrines replaced by useless techniques.
Alvin,
keep in mind that the effectiveness of the techniques does vary person-to-person because our biological machines are different. Because the machines are different, the result of an experiment on one machine does not predict the result of the experiment on another.
Those who progress rapidly in yoga do so, in part, because they have a talent for it. Therefore, unfortunately, at this point in time and in Science, you may be only able to prove their effectiveness-for-you, or their ineffectiveness-for-you, no more.
-D
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2005 : 2:07:04 PM
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Hi Alvin,
I understand that you are eager to test the practices, so that you can be confident about them and proceed w/o any doubts. I am exactly like you. Many of us here are like you. We all want proof. Proof that god exists, proof that these practices work. The point to be noted here is that the results depend not just on the effectiveness of these techniques but also on the level of impurities within us. So I would suggest you to be patient and give these techniques some time to work. I didnt have any "significant" experiences but my gut feeling is that these practices work and they are the best. How do I know? Because I have seen lot of practitioners here who have come from other systems and had immedeate experiences on doing AYP (esctatic conductivity, hot/cold currents etc..). If you ask them they say AYP is far better than other systems.
Like you, for me AYP is first introduction to spirituality. So I am giving it some time. By the way, I would like to know your views/experiences regarding sahaj yoga. I recently read about it online and thought it was not that effective.
-Near
The reason many people fail in spirituality is that they try but make no attempt - Anonymous |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2005 : 2:34:24 PM
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Hey Alvin,
Just read your third post in this thread. Yes we all need to verify the truth before we believe. Nobody here is asking you not to do so. We are not trying to sell you anything. So please dont consider us different from you. The uniqueness of AYP is that there is no effort to create an insititution here. AYP is just a good selection of practices from different systems (with some modifications and additions). It's Yogani's life time experience that is being of use to everybody. So just give the practices some time and see the results for yourself.
I agree with you that we need to verify the truth, but at the same time if a great Yogi says something to be "true" and I cannot verify it immedeatly, I will take it to be true (basing on his past reputation). That kind of believing is also necessary to make progress. Just my 2 cents.
-Near
The reason many people fail in spirituality is that they try but make no attempt - Anonymous |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2005 : 11:40:05 PM
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>>keep in mind that the effectiveness of the techniques does vary person-to-person because our biological machines are different. Because the machines are different, the result of an experiment on one machine does not predict the result of the experiment on another.
I understand that.... we all know that the systems of body-building work, and that certain ppl can build large muscles within a short time, but it depends on many factors, like talents(of one's body); diet, time and effort one put in.... And maybe some ppl do not have much response with it!
That's exactly why we need scientific evidences for esoteric techniques, in a somewhat larger scale. We need un-biased statistics, not just a few positive or negative examples. Here in Hong Kong we have something similar in its status: Chinese medicine. (or some other alternative medicine) We already know that certain part of it is effective in treating certain diseases (including SARS, they claimed), but the main part of it remain esoteric to the scientific community. The theory of it is--just as yoga, and actually overlap with yoga in the description of "nadis"--- rather absurd for scientists and most rational beings. But as long as it works, who cares? A method may work for some mysterious reasons. The "theory" in the eastern sense is, after all, an easy way for us to grasp and organize knowledge; in stead of the western "theory": an EXPLANATION which allows us to predict, control.
On the other hand, I would also like to take note of the placebo effect. If you exercise regularly in a certain way, you'll get stronger even if you're never told about their effects. But if you're sick and I give you some useless, fake drug to eat, then my reputation; my description of that drug, etc all can determine whether you'll be helped by that drug. This is verified by scientific studies. Would you still say that the drug is "effective"? It's a hard question, depending how you look at the question. Because of this, my enquiry can also include the following: whether the "higher" part of yoga belong to the first or second case. The hatha yoga (or the asanas) part of yoga belongs to the first case: you'll be benefited even if you don't believe. Why's the difference important, as long as something works? If it is the second case, usually one cannot go too far: you may feel happier by going to Church every weekend, but probably you won't feel happier and happier and happier....for too long. For an example of the first case: if you learn an musical instrument (and practises!) you will have a long way for improvement. You can turn yourself into a piano player gradually, and you can expand your repertoire indefinitely--provided you've enough time.
Now a comment on Sahaja. It's a classic in my mind. First of all, to be fair, it does have a practice of meditation. So even in the eyes of the scientific community they should be helpful--to some extent. But their claims go too far. They said you'll awake your kundalini in just a few minutes, just by some strange rituals. (which they said are not useful(!); only your desire is important) So, you can expect, ppl expect a proof. At the end they ask you to put your hands above your head to see if there's heat/coldness coming out: this is the sign of the rising kundalini to the crown. For me, I ask for "real" sign. I DO HAVE some feelings for this reason: try putting your hand in exactly the same way they ask you to do. You'll feel something like a hot/cold current even if you don't know their "yoga". That's because of the change of blood flow when you take your hands in that position. Certainly not kundalini. Try another experiment(sometimes it does not work, it depends on your body condition and the room temperature): take your hands near your liver, with your palm facing it, do not touch your body. If your clothes are thin enough, you will feel some heat on your palm. That's because of the heat, the infrared radiation coming out from the body. Of course they have their theory, which is much more complicated. Simple when I told you now? There are other tricks, but you know what I mean anyway. Combining with the amostphere, their preaching(very skillful though not convincing for me) and the ignorance of the audience, many ppl think they're having a rising kundalini just because of these tricks.(ppl usually are doubtful about their "experience" at first, but after hearing the other's sharing of experiences, the preaching of the preachers, the encouragements; all these encourage them to believe)
That's more about them: while they seems to respect all religions at first, they gradually expect you to dedicate yourself to them; worship and serve their spiritual leader (a woman, whom they regard as god/goddess), everything she said must be correct, any other religion is inferior to her when the teachings contradict each other, etc. Of course that's not the first impression they are going to show you: they know it's difficult to be accepted. If you search "Sahaja yoga" in google, you'll find a lot. It's not the traditional yoga, but still rather famous. (on the other hand, you can also find a lot of complains about them :-> )
That's why you cannot always only rely on reputation. You have to test for yourself(or know from scientific studies/well-tested knowledge on the effects of brushing teeth, doing exercises,etc).
So far my experience with AYP have been great: plain teaching, no insititution. One good sign about Yoga (the traditional ones, not Sahaja,Kundalini yoga by Yogi Bhajan, etc) is that even though the theory is absurd, the practices are plain: no religious rituals involved. That's important: for more people to accept and get the benefits, you can only keep the practices as simple as possible, removing all rituals which are not the core of the practice (that's a great feature of Yogani's teaching, e.g., on spinal breathing, meditation) Afterall, why we need those rituals if the practices work without placebo effects?
I will give the practices a few years. Anyway, meditation is already helping me. I am just concerned with spinal breathing, the heat/cold currents.....Will I ever get to that? seemingly the first step is the hardest...... |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2005 : 10:44:45 AM
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Hello Alvin,
Sometime, further in the future, when the brain and mind are better understood, and the external correlates of these phenomena, such as Kundalini, Samadhi and so on, can be measured reliably (and I believe such a time will come) the smoke will clear tremendously. Then I think the age of charlatan's (in yoga anyway) will pass.
Charlatanry requires a very particular circumstance for its existence -- it requires that the population in unable to distinguish properly. Charlatan's hide in smoke. There is no charlatanry at all in mathematics, for example.
When charlatanry is possible, all sorts of confusions and counter-confusions are possible. A person can be a charlatan, a whole organization, religion, cult can be a charlatan. People are confused into thinking that because these people have some angle on esoteric knowledge, that they are not charlatans. A big mistake. They are also prone to thinking that because these people are charlatans, that they don't have some handle on esoteric knowledge -- another big mistake, because someone can have a good handle on esoteric knowledge and be ultimately a fraud, a faker.
Esoteric means no more than 'as yet unkown and poorly understood'. When this knowledge is properly understood and known, it won't be esoteric any more. Then the charlatans will be gone (or they'll have to find an alternative realm of work).
It may also be true that while the knowledge is esoteric, almost everyone who has it and teaches it, has some degree of charlatanry about them, even if they don't care for being charlatans. It's as if charlatanry of some sort, is built into the system, just because people cannot see well enough through the smoke not to be charlatans in some way themselves. Charlatanry and 'inflation' go hand in hand. The inflation is there partly because of the smoke. It's a societal thing as well as an individual thing. If Krishnamurti were living in a society of sufficient awareness, he would not have enough smoke in him to think that we would not see for centuries an Intelligence as great as the one that used his body. Same for Meher Baba, and thousands of others.
Yogani took a very big step towards clearing up the smoke around Yoga, by discerning the best of it, synthesising it in a clear way, and putting it out in the open like had never been done before.
-D
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2005 : 10:53:21 AM
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>> I will give the practices a few years. Anyway, meditation is already helping me. I am just concerned with spinal breathing, the heat/cold currents.....Will I ever get to that? seemingly the first step is the hardest......
If you become convinced (after giving them a good chance) that the other things apart from the meditation are not mattering so much, then just do the meditation -- cultivate the Inner Silence as Yogani would say.
Or maybe better still, cut down all the non-meditation things to a very short amount of time. Then they will always be a 'tool' in your repertoire, cultivated, shiny and ready for a time when they may be needed.
All the non-meditation stuff is about smoothing out and directing rising ecstatic currents in the body. We vary in how much our ecstatic currents are awakened, and how much they need smoothing. This can vary person-to-person and time-to-time for each person.
But we can all do with the Inner Silence.
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 11 2005 11:14:11 AM |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2005 : 4:58:31 PM
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quote:
Spinal breathing begins as 2 - visualize, moves to 3 - feel and visualize (see lesson #63 for some clues), and ends up almost exclusively as 1 - feel, becoming much more than physical feeling -- more and more to unbounded feeling of ecstatic inner space (inner sensuality). All of this depends on resident inner silence cultivated (separately) in deep meditation.
Hi Yogani,
Would you say that in addition to feel, that it has been your experience that you also start to "see" the spinal nerve (or the flow of energy in it) on the inside as well as the inner sight becomes more clear and energy levels step up?
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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
Posted - Nov 12 2005 : 6:05:52 PM
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Hi Anthem:
Yes, ultimately all the senses are involved, gradually refining inward. In AYP terminology that is "inner sensuality." Traditionally it is known as "pratyahara," one of the eight limbs of yoga.
Interestingly, this refinement of the senses inward corresponds with the rise of ecstatic conductivity in the nervous system. In due course, the refinement of sensory perception migrates back outward, and then we experience ecstatic conductivity (and radiance) in all things -- not only within our body.
Along with the outward migration of inner sensuality and ecstatic conductivity, there also comes the expansion of outpouring divine love. So all of these things are tied together, emanating from our expanding pure bliss consciousness -- all coming from our inner silence.
While we are going in, we are also coming out! 
The guru is in you.
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to imagine or to feel?-- spinal breathing
