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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 09:49:59 AM
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I've been in full kechari for a while --- tongue in the nasal pharynx.
What I've been finding is that with my tongue in the pharynx, the gets tender after a while, mildly inflamed. This is the 'fickle pharynx' thing that Yogani has been talking about. The inflamed-ness seems to come with the pharynx getting dryer.
More or less as I expected, the amount of time my tongue can stay in there has been increasing with practice. That is, my pharynx has been getting used to the tongue with time.
Another interesting thing is that it seems that the pharynx gets used to the tong bit by bit. I made significant advances into the pharynx in a short amount of time using 'Tooled Talavya' and found that the new pharynx territory was not yet used to the tongue and became tender more quickly.
At this point, I can reach the 'secret spot' but I can't stay there for long because of this tenderness.
One thing is surprising though -- it takes the pharynx much less time to recover from the tenderness than I expected. In the earlier days I thought that after the tenderness sets in, there would be no more tongue in the pharynx for a whole day. However, I found that even 40 minutes later, it can be OK again.
The pharynx, BTW, also seems to have a mind of its own, independent of the tongue -- at certain times of the day it would just be randomly more unwilling to take the tongue than others, even if there was no tongue in there in the meantime.
Not everyone's pharynx, btw, gets tender like that. It seems that Victor never had any of that tenderness.
I discovered something by accident -- drinking orange juice seems to salve the tender pharynx for me, significantly. Drinking a little allows me to continue for much longer.
How does drinking orange juice do this, since no juice gets into the pharynx? I don't know the details of course, but I think it is something reflexive -- I think it may be the sourness, the saliva-generating aspect of the orange juice that does the trick (so presumably lemon or grapefruit juice would work nicely). Maybe that saliva generation starts liquids going in the pharynx also, and reverses the tenderness. I don't know how it works, but one thing I am certain of -- it works very well for me.
A little drink salves it for about ten minutes or so. So occasional sipping during kechari is perfect. I slosh it around in the back of my mouth to get the saliva going....
When we think about it, cold/flu/congestion-congestion-relief is often provided with lemon is probably related and no accident! I think salivation probably relieves tenderness in the pharynx in general, regardless of whether kechari is the cause of the tenderness.
-D
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 18 2005 10:01:28 AM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 11:58:29 AM
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Hi David:
Something else that helps is a drop or two of olive oil on the tip of the tongue before going up.
Apologies for not mentioning this much earlier. I have not used it for many years, and forgot about it.
See? I'm not perfect. 
The guru is in you.
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 12:18:23 PM
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When we sneeze, we get a kind of pleasant feeling. Not in comparison to orgasm, w.r.t to intensity but, something like that.
Is that an indication of some other sexual organ present in us somewhere in pharynx?
The reason many people fail in spirituality is that they try but make no attempt - Anonymous |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 12:53:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nearoanoke
When we sneeze, we get a kind of pleasant feeling. Not in comparison to orgasm, w.r.t to intensity but, something like that.
Is that an indication of some other sexual organ present in us somewhere in pharynx?
Oh, there's a lot that can be said about that. :) One could write a great essay on that.
The sneeze is very similar to the orgasm physiologically. It also has a build-up and point-of-no-return.
I've heard someone say that people who love sneezing are very sensual. It might be an indicator that they 'like sex'.
Some of the organs in the nose seem to have a sexual function. It's believed that these are largely vestigial, that is had more of a function at other times in our evolutionary history than now.
Some people actually sneeze sometimes as a result of sexual excitement. There is actually erectile tissue in the nose. I've heard (from a doctor friend of mine) that at stripteases and the like, you can hear a lot of old men sneezing and blowing their noses. This 'erectile tissue' though may have a non-sexual function also. (Check the link below.)
There are various speculations about the reasons for this arousal of the nose. One is that at some point in our evolutionary history, the nose actually swelled during sexual arousal, mainly to exhibit sexual arousal. Another is that the nose was so much involved in mate-selection in the past that the nose was given extra blood around sniffing time... or maybe both reasons...
Another 'reason' is, hell, why not let the nose orgasm too during sexual orgasm? If all the equipment is there, put there by the sneezing mechanism, it doesn't cost much to give it a share in the action...
Or maybe it happened for all reasons.
Check out this link:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/mo.../s198395.htm
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 18 2005 12:56:18 PM |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 12:59:09 PM
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| So now we have sex organs in the nose as well as under the upper lip. What's next - the inner ear? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 1:08:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
So now we have sex organs in the nose as well as under the upper lip. What's next - the inner ear?
The one in the upper lip I would just call an 'erogenous zone'. But what is going on in the nose might deserve a bigger label than that.
This stuff about the erogenousness of the inner nose and the existence of the erectile tissue is not at all new in AYP though --- it's covered pretty clearly in Yogani's writings ...
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 18 2005 1:09:28 PM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 1:17:15 PM
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I see a lot of old ppl using some kind of stimulating powders to purposefully sneeze. For them sneezing is a replacement for sex (lost at old age).
I even read in the novel that during kechari john finds a female-organ kind of thing at third eye. May be thats different.
The reason many people fail in spirituality is that they try but make no attempt - Anonymous |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 18 2005 : 1:25:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nearoanoke
I see a lot of old ppl using some kind of stimulating powders to purposefully sneeze. For them sneezing is a replacement for sex (lost at old age).
Ah, an interesting perspective on 'snuff'. Thanks!
quote:
I even read in the novel that during kechari john finds a female-organ kind of thing at third eye. May be thats different.
John? You sure you aren't thinking of the moment when Devi discovers 'another clitoris'? If a good down-home very male American boy found that he had a clitoris in his nose, it might take more than enlightenment to get him to admit it.
-David "no clitoris in my nose" aka "The Blade" Obsidian
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Nov 18 2005 1:29:28 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 9:01:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi David:
Something else that helps is a drop or two of olive oil on the tip of the tongue before going up.
Apologies for not mentioning this much earlier. I have not used it for many years, and forgot about it.
See? I'm not perfect.
The guru is in you.
Yogani,
I'd hate to mythologize you but you may have been right to omit it.  Or, at the very least, it didn't help me at all; it may even have made the mild inflammation worse.
However, if this helps someone, I'd be interested to hear about it...
-D |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 11:30:08 PM
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Hi David:
It (the olive oil) was helpful to me during a period of sensitivity a long time ago. But it's obviously not for everyone. Better stick with your citrus, and anything else you can come up with that facilitates your practice. Whatever works!
Make sure to report any additional findings here so others will have multiple options to consider.
Over time, a more accommodating biology develops in the pharynx, stimulated by regular kechari practice. It is not only about saliva. It is also lubricaton (often sweet) coming down from the nasal passages. In fact, it is more the latter. So, the need for aids will gradually become less. It did for me anyway. The development corresponds with rising ecstatic conductivity, which is logical from the point of view of the evolving spiritual biology. It becomes a completely natural process, intimately involved with the rise of our inner experience and its steady overflow into our outer life.
In a very real sense, all that I am doing here is an overflow of That. It looks that way from this side of the screen.
The guru is in you.
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ycloutier2000
Canada
78 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2005 : 6:57:30 PM
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I would use a little ghee on the tongue instead of olive oil. Ghee is used in Ayurvedic nasal preperations. It is the oil of choice for nasal medicines. Olive oil, since it has a pungeant quality, can certainly irritate. Ghee on the other hand is cooling and soothing. Sesame oil could also be used for this.
yves |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2006 : 09:48:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
What I've been finding is that with my tongue in the pharynx, the gets tender after a while, mildly inflamed. This is the 'fickle pharynx' thing that Yogani has been talking about. The inflamed-ness seems to come with the pharynx getting dryer.
The pharynx, BTW, also seems to have a mind of its own, independent of the tongue -- at certain times of the day it would just be randomly more unwilling to take the tongue than others, even if there was no tongue in there in the meantime.
I discovered something by accident -- drinking orange juice seems to salve the tender pharynx for me, significantly. Drinking a little allows me to continue for much longer.
-D
Hi David,
How long does this tenderness last? I don't think I have the same problem as you did.. but my pharynx is very dry and I dread going into kechari the first time (both morning and evening).. it hurts and burns and I gag.. I have to make 3 or 4 attempts, by then I have enough saliva in my mouth and the tongue stays in place. After that I have absolutely no discomfort. I was just wondering if this is still a problem for you.. or with time this will go away.. and if you did find a way around it.. OJ or anything acidic .. is not my drink of choice first thing in the morning..
I tried the ghee Yves.. but that did not help much. |
Edited by - Shanti on Sep 15 2006 09:51:09 AM |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2006 : 10:31:39 AM
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Hi Shanti,
I just try to make sure that I have good saliva flow before entering. I have not had any dryness problems whatsoever.
Hope that helps!
With Peace,
Paul |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2006 : 11:49:57 AM
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Hi Shweta
Ditto on the saliva.
When I was new to kechari I experienced tenderness/rawness/discomfort.
What I noticed was as I pushed ahead and explored around (I was excited, roving all over) those sensations diminished. The same process occured as I began to explore the tender nasal passages. Now, the only comfort compromise is due to seasonal allergies. Presently I have to use stage one because of rawness and inability to breathe well thru nostrils. Thankfully the season is almost over as I am missing the full experience during pranayama.
Happy tongue-playAlan |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2006 : 11:54:38 AM
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Shanti asked:
How long does this tenderness last? <SNIP> I was just wondering if this is still a problem for you.. or with time this will go away.. and if you did find a way around it.. OJ or anything acidic .. is not my drink of choice first thing in the morning..
Hi Shanti,
I seem to experience both a short-term tenderness, and a long-term sensitivity, or tendancy towards tenderness. Like the difference between weather and climate. What I mean is that the short-term tenderness can vary by the hours of the day.
In my case the long-term sensitivity is taking time to go away, diminishing steadily over a period of months; meaning the the frequency and severity of the short-term tenderness is diminishing, as my pharynx gets used to the tongue.
The further reaches of the pharynx in my case seem to need to lose the long-term sensitivity in their own time.
The only thing I found that helps is the acidic things. If you are averse to OJ, keep in mind that you don't need to drink much at all to get your saliva going. Maybe amaroli might help too (can't remember if you are practicing it).
Did you try the olive oil? It made it worse for me, but obviously it helps other people...
Regards,
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Sep 15 2006 11:56:35 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2006 : 3:09:36 PM
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Paul said:
"I just try to make sure that I have good saliva flow before entering. I have not had any dryness problems whatsoever"
Thanks Paul. Yes you are right, I think getting a good saliva flow before kechari will help the tongue enter the nasal pharynx easier... then I wont dread it so much... But my nasal pharynx and tongue itself are very dry.. and this causes tenderness.. but just in the beginning.. it seems to get used to it after a few mins.
bALANce Said:Ditto on the saliva"
Thanks Alan.. so you are in stage 4 huh? How did you get your tongue up the skinny nasal passage? My tongue is so fat.. there is no way I can get it into my nasal passage.
David,
Gosh! you can be confusing at times.. OK.. I think I am talking about the short-term tenderness.. Somehow, once I am in and can hold my tongue in for a few mins.. I don't feel any pain or discomfort... so I guess it is the "weather " I am talking about.. not the climate..
"If you are averse to OJ, keep in mind that you don't need to drink much at all to get your saliva going."
Did not think that way.. OK will try a little OJ in the morning.. lets see how that goes.. Olive oil will burn I think.. but maybe I should give it a try..
You wrote this post almost a year ago.. and you still have tenderness.. so I guess it wont go away too soon. |
Edited by - Shanti on Sep 15 2006 4:02:37 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2006 : 5:05:19 PM
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You wrote this post almost a year ago.. and you still have tenderness..
There's less tenderness than last year. Fewer events of tenderness. Less weather. Better climate. Got it? |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2006 : 12:40:32 PM
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David, do you mind sharing with us the timeline of your kechari practice, say in this 3 years? Where was your tongue when you started, and roughly when you reach stage 2?? I have been snipping for at least 2 months, and quite dramatically sometimes.(usually I tried to reach the inner connective tissues and stopped til I found really painful if I continue) Yet the progress is very slow. Not yet even in stage 2. It seems that my frenum is even more limiting than yours, or may be there's something wrong.....
One more thing, I am now pretty sure that the connective tissues will re-grow, at least in my case. After may be 2 days of snipping, the extension will be less. It's not due to inflammation, since waiting for a week or 2 do not help. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Sep 16 2006 : 1:51:42 PM
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| Sure, I'll give a timeline soon. I don't know it off the top of my head -- I'll have to look it up... |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2006 : 01:10:10 AM
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Perhaps looking up the timeline is harsh for you, and may be it's not as helpful as your strategy. How often do (did) you snip/cut/scrape? I'm experience the same thing over and over again: gain a millimeter or two, but lose that in just two days after the wound heal.
Also, after entering into a certain depth the wound hurt a lot if I continue to snip. I mean, if I go futher into the new restricting fibers. The pain is big but tolerable for me, but I don't want to take any risk.
Anyone experienced the same thing? |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2006 : 3:16:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
Also, after entering into a certain depth the wound hurt a lot if I continue to snip. I mean, if I go futher into the new restricting fibers. The pain is big but tolerable for me, but I don't want to take any risk.
Anyone experienced the same thing?
Hi Alvin,
You should take a break and let the wound heal completely. Then you will notice the frenum come back to the surface as a ridge. You should feel a lot less pain then if any at all.
With Peace,
Paul |
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2006 : 02:35:19 AM
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| Thanks for your reply, Paul. But that doesn't work for me, I think. Every time I snip, I will get some length immediately. But I will just lose my length everytime I let it heal. Then by the time I snip again, it amounts to no progress at all! How's your experience? |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2006 : 11:53:17 PM
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Alvin,
here I am finally. I looked up the dates in the old forum and I know my timeline:
Around 1990, started doing Kechari mudra stage 1.
Continued, on-and off for years
Around Feb 2005, discovered AYP and started snipping pretty much straight away. I did some of the 'snipping in multiple spots' which I have explained elsewhere. (It's in the REALLY LONG thread on Kechari mudra.) This gave me considerable extension.
I also did regular 'milking of the tongue'. This also gave me the muscle-extension to back up the removal of the limiting fibers.
Also started doing some pretty heavy clipping. ('Grasp and snip' -- not recommended for general use).
Probably around May or so, my tongue was actually long enough for stage 2. But I hadn;t gotten the technique right and didn't make it. Victor corrected my access, and I got in, some time in July.
Then I deveoped and started 'tooled talavya' some time after that.
So I've been in stage 2 for about a year, and I think my tongue was long enough after a few months.
Now, to get back to your case. One question that comes to mind is whether you are doing any 'milking the tongue', for tongue-muscle extension. Perhaps you are tongue-muscle bound? ( Still, that wouldn't explain to me why you lose extension shortly after gaining it.)
You say some connective tissue grows to fill some of the gap made by the removed frenum. That's surely true, but it would be scar tissue. Scar tissue is not strong at all, unlike the frenum fibers themselves. However, one possible explanation for losing the extension is that the scar tissue is limiting you. Here again, milking the tongue might be just the thing for stretching the scar tissue.
An alternative to milking the tongue is to just grab the tongue and hold steady and pull. If your tongue extension is only muscle-limited, that might be the best way to go.
A question arises why the tradition is not so much to apply a steady pull on the tongue but rather to 'milk' it. One speculation I have is that the 'milking' is better for removing scar tissue, and bringing frenum fibers to the surface. The steady pulling is probably best for stretching the muscles.
Are you milking or pulling the tongue at all? How long do you do it for?
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Oct 09 2006 : 12:51:06 AM
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Thanks for your timeline. Sound pretty--just a few months is enough for you to enter stage 2!
I didn't milk my tongue, and that seems to be the most obvious difference. (I'm doing multiple snipping too: stretching and pulling my tongue in different directions to expose all limiting fibers I could find and snip at each snipping session.)
quote:
You say some connective tissue grows to fill some of the gap made by the removed frenum. That's surely true, but it would be scar tissue. Scar tissue is not strong at all, unlike the frenum fibers themselves.
In the first few days(when they are somewhat white in color), they are not strong, but they become stronger and gradually are just like other connective tissues. Though they don't hurt much if I snip them, they are strong enough to hold my tongue back!
Ok, sound like I have to milk my tongue. You pointed out the difference between milking and pulling that I was aware of before: I do pull my tongue occasionally, usually right before and after snipping.
Finding the leisure to milk my tongue is certainly a problem. At least I can't do it outside my apartment.
quote:
Are you milking or pulling the tongue at all? How long do you do it for?
May be you can share your regimen, especially during your days of fastest progress?
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2006 : 12:01:46 PM
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Alvin, my regimen was pretty varied, but what I was generally doing is some major snipping, followed by a healing time. I also tried snipping again before healing completed but I found that that didn't really help.
Something which may be of interest to you is to check to what extent your tongue is frenum-limited, and to what extent muscle-limited.
Here's an experiment for you. Grasp your tongue, using say a cotton handkerchief or some other cloth, with both hands close to but not too close to the tip. And pull it. Hold it steady and pull fairly strongly. What do you feel? You may notice a dull ache, which is muscle pain. And you may notice sharper pain, which is from pulling on the frenum. If you have the dull ache, your muscles are being stretched by the pull, and your tongue is muscle-limited; the sharper pain indicates that your tongue is frenum-limited.
Maybe you'll find that your tongue is both frenum- and muscle- limited. It is very easy to overcome the muscle-limitation by pulling the tongue. For that, a sustained pull for say three minutes in the morning (easy to do while you still lie in bed on your back) will overcome the muscle-limitation rather rapidly, maybe even within say a month, and it could be even faster (or slower) depending on how hard you pull and how long you pull.
So it's very easy to overcome muscle-limitation. If you do the above exercise, you'll start to find in fairly short order that the dull ache is disappearing, and all you have left is the sharp pang of frenum-limitation. At that point, pulling won't help stretch the muscle any more, because the frenum is blocking the stretch. Of course, a major cut of the frenum, reducing the frenum limitation, will make your tongue more muscle-limited immediately, making the tongue ready for further stretching through the sustained pull.
In the earlier days, I did some of the sustained pull exercise, to good effect to stretch the muscle. Later, the 'milking of the tongue' doubled for muscle-stretching also.
So in summary, if you are highly muscle-limited, the sustained pull may be better. When the muscle-limitation is over, snipping is needed to reduce frenum-limitation, and 'milking the tongue' I believe helps to stretch the scar tissue, bring the fibers near the surface, and serves to do some muscle-stretching too.
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Alvin Chan
Hong Kong
407 Posts |
Posted - Oct 11 2006 : 10:46:02 PM
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Thanks for your detailed reply. I was always wondering whether I'm muscle or frenum-limited. Just couldn't judge it well by the feeling. It seems to be both.... But the REALLY sharp pain (when I pull it hard) under my tongue indicates that it's more frenum-limited.
Do you notice also, that if we pull it too close at the tip, the surface skin of the tongue may slip over the muscles? Then I may just be pulling (and extending) the skin without pulling the core part of the tongue? Since I somehow feel that the strongest limiting connective tissues are connected not just to the skin but to the core, I prefer to grip (with clean tissues) as large an area as I can and pull it as hard as I can bear.
What do you think about that?
3 mins per day? Certainly I can afford that, may be much more. I just mistook it as something like my hamstring which resist any attempt to lengthen it...... |
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tender pharynx -- surprising cure
