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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 05 2007 : 12:10:02 PM
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| There have been a few forumites talking about going to dentists to get their frenums removed. But I haven't been keeping up with discussions here...has anyone done so and reported back? Any reason NOT to go this route? Is it expensive? has anyone devised a way to request the procedure without having the dentist explode in derisive laughter? |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2007 : 12:19:12 PM
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| I spoke with my dentist about it years ago and explained that it was an advanced part of the yoga practce that I was doing and he didn't laugh at all. He explained that it was a common procedure and that it was no problem. I do have a particularly good relationship with my dentist however and have been his patient for 20 years and he knows about my interest in yoga. Many people get random dentists as needed and I so would expect to get random responses to this request. I would remind you that your dentist is a professional who you as a client (patient) hire to do a service for you. As such it is simply further business that you are sending this person |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2007 : 12:49:31 PM
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Agreed, Victor. That wasn't the main thrust of my request (though it will take a bit of throat clearing to broach this with my dentist, a great, customer-service minded guy who bears a close resemblence to Donald Rumsfeld, only he's a bit less liberal-minded).
I'm more interested in cost, results, etc. Would like to hear from (or be pointed to threads about) people who did it, or decided not to go this route.
So did he remove your frenum? |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 05 2007 12:51:21 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2007 : 2:11:26 PM
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Hi Jim, recall SparkyFoxMD successfully used services of a dentist for the purpose, though in the UK, not in the US, and the dentist charged around Pounds 200. More here.
It may be very much a matter of shopping around for who will do it.
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2007 : 2:22:33 PM
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Hi Jim:
Here is a topic that goes into removal of the the frenum with a laser: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=460
There have been a few who have gone this route. I don't believe the act of removing the frenum (quickly by surgery, or gradually by tiny snips), or even physically getting into stage 2 kechari, necessarily guarantees immediate progress in ecstatic conductivity. Without some initial ecstatic conductivity, kechari may be little more than a parlor trick, like the kids in the videos are doing. It is the difference between being a contortionist and being a yogi/yogini -- big difference. The same can be said about all physical yoga. Obviously, we are looking for much more.
On the other hand, overcoming the frenum limitation is certainly necessary to physically achieve kechari stages 2 and higher. Yet, the more important factor in this is the rise of inner silence and ecstatic conductivity from within via our other practices, which can then lead to kechari and additional yoga practices. In that sense, true kechari is effect before it is cause, much the way everything is in yoga. It all grows from bhakti, and it all feeds bhakti. Round and round and ever higher the neurobiological transformation goes.
This is not to discourage kechari -- only to suggest that it is not going to be a panacea if regarded mainly as a physical achievment. It depends very much on other non-physical factors. In your case, kechari is likely to be a boost, since you have the energy flowing already. You will know when it is time, and then overcoming the frenum by whatever means you choose will be an incidental detail in the larger scheme of what is happening.
It is also important to note that many have achieved human spiritual transformation without structured practice of kechari, or other specific techniques, though influences are no doubt felt through the urges of automatic yoga rising from within the nervous system as purification and opening advance by whatever means that are applied -- in many historical cases, by blistering bhakti only.
All yoga practices have been derived over the centuries from these natural influences coming from within the spiritually evolving human nervous system. As a result, we have many tools available now to hasten things along, managed for good progress with safety. As far as structured practices go, it is a matter of what tools in the box work best for each individual to maximize progress without blowing the doors off the barn. 
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2007 : 4:28:12 PM
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| I seem to recall that after Sparkyfox had his surgery, he still wasn't able to do kechari. Is that correct? I'm sure that by now he's able to, but my point is that it may not guarantee an immediate kechari, any more than snipping. But once most people here on AYP started snipping, it was only a short time until most people could get their tongues into kechari. |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2007 : 8:32:11 PM
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| personally I didn't have it done, just had the conversation with my dentist. I am due for a checkup next week so I could enquire so that I can share a ballpark figure with the forum |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2007 : 11:31:25 PM
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Yogani wrote:
quote:
It is also important to note that many have achieved human spiritual transformation without structured practice of kechari, or other specific techniques, though influences are no doubt felt through the urges of automatic yoga rising from within the nervous system as purification and opening advance by whatever means that are applied -- in many historical cases, by blistering bhakti only.
This is a topic that has been in the back of my mind for probably over a year. It seems to be apparent that human spiritual transformation/ evolution is ongoing even after unity consciousness is realized. If someone opted never to go the kechari route, would they be limiting their evolutionary potential or does kechari simply act as a booster to energy completing its journey in opening the crown and the merging of Shakti/ Shiva?
I am guessing here that full crown opening is synonymous with realizing unity consciousness? If so does kechari serve a purpose once unity consciousness is realized, is the ongoing energy expansion, boosted with kechari? Are more advanced stages of kechari critical in achieving greater levels of awareness?
For me personally, the urge for kechari stage 1 came together automatically with the inner energy openings, but I have never been overly keen to cut through the frenum. I guess it comes down to wondering if I am limiting myself someway with not pursuing this practice?
Any thoughts are welcome.
Anthem11
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2007 : 10:10:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Anthem11
If someone opted never to go the kechari route, would they be limiting their evolutionary potential or does kechari simply act as a booster to energy completing its journey in opening the crown and the merging of Shakti/ Shiva?
For me personally, the urge for kechari stage 1 came together automatically with the inner energy openings, but I have never been overly keen to cut through the frenum. I guess it comes down to wondering if I am limiting myself someway with not pursuing this practice?
I think that you should only cut or zap your frenum if you have the strong desire to do so. I don't think that by not cutting or not doing kechari you're limiting your spiritual progress, b'c if the urge isn't strong enough for either, then it's likely not the mudra for you. Similarly, if you're already in kechari and haven't the desire to press onward into stage 3 or 4, then stay put until the urge comes. I'm in stage 2 and have no desire to push onward or clip at the moment. I assume that I'm not ready to take on that much more energy, and will wait until the desire comes before I start clipping again.
I notice the greatest benefits of kechari during spinal breathing. My understanding is that when the tongue is in kechari it completes the circuit between the throat and ajna chakras (or crown, if you're going there). But during meditation I don't like to be in kechari, as I notice that it tends to interfere with any samadhi that occurs. In other words, the Shakti energy is disrupting the Shiva energy, which is all about stillness. I'm curious if anyone else has this reaction to kechari during meditation.
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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2007 : 03:00:33 AM
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Hey guys
I havent logged on for 3 days and look what I find!
Yes, I did have it done and there were no howls of derisive laughter from my dentist. I explained why I wanted it done and he was completely cool with it.
It was May 2006 and now its April 2007, and I still have not achieved stage 2. However, I am much much closer, and it is just a matter of time. I am trying to heed Yoganis counsel of bit by bit and do it when time is right; it was important for me because my frenum was very tight indeed, and I did not trust myself with snipping, I am rather over-enthusiatic and would probably go for the quick route and harm myself.
I am very pleased I had it done and now stretch regularly, and I know it is just a matter of time. Patience seems important to my development.
I am aware that there is a great deal of light waiting to fully connect and I feel kechari is very important for this reason.
Now I can get my tongue back, round the side or straight back, but I just cant hook it back over (around) the uvula, but slowly slowly catchee monkey. I cant seem to find the hole at the back...but again, I will sometime soon.
So; good luck, if anyone decides to get it done, I am sure you will be happy with the results; if not, I am sure that will be good too.
Hope this helps...any questions, let me know
sparky |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2007 : 1:14:09 PM
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I'm guessing Sparky that the dentist did not remove your entire frenum, but rather, the entire prominent part of your frenum. I could be wrong in that, but I believe if the entire frenum is gone, there is very little impediment to stage 2 kechari.
Which brings up a concern of mine that, since frenum-removal for yoga practice is not part of dentist expertise, that they will not necessarily have a fully tutored conception of what is needed. If you ask a dentist to remove your frenum, will he conceive of it as (i) merely removing your frenal membrane or (ii) removing the frenal membrane and a lot of the frenum proper or (iii) removing the entire thing.
I think that in your case the dentist did (ii). This may even be the right thing to do, the best thing he could have done, because, it may be impractical to remove the entire frenum in one sitting; a second visit to the dentist to remove (most of ) the rest of it might be an option in a case like that.
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sparkyfoxMD
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2007 : 1:31:24 PM
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Dear David
You may well be right. At the risk of frightening anyone, I will try to get a photo taken...Im not sure if I have a "before" though.
The tongue is still attached to the floor but the thin stringy bot is gone. What is left is part of the structure itself. Does that make sense? Maybe a photo will help clear this up.
Anyway, Im a lot more flexible now...but I would say uvula seems a hell of a long way back!!
Onwards and upwards
sparky |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2007 : 01:38:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sparkyfoxMD
Dear David
You may well be right. At the risk of frightening anyone, I will try to get a photo taken...Im not sure if I have a "before" though.
The tongue is still attached to the floor but the thin stringy bot is gone. What is left is part of the structure itself. Does that make sense? Maybe a photo will help clear this up.
Anyway, Im a lot more flexible now...but I would say uvula seems a hell of a long way back!!
Onwards and upwards
sparky
Hi All,
I know of at least one non-Forum-active AYPer who had this (frenumectomy, or whatever it's called - for roughly usd $550, in the Los Angeles area - and has had good results).
I'm seriously thinking of it myself - solely because the bhakti is getting stronger again (to proceed to higher stages of Khechari - have been in "highly ecstatic Stage 2" for a few months, now) - and all things being equal --- why not go the high-tech route?
I do agree with Yogani, though: the more I learn (and experience) about both ecstatic conductivity and Khechari ... the former seems to determine the magnitude of the latter, big-time!
(As In: if you don't have much ecstatic conductivity, probably best to focus there either first, or at least equally - compared to "full-bore" Khechari orientation, alone.)
Otherwise, you may end up in "Club Khechari", but disappointed with the results.
If I do the "MahaSnipananda" (aka Lingual Frenemectomy  ) thing - I'll share results, "fer shure".
I'm in semi-rural Georgia now, so they may Tar & Feather me for even askin' ...!
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Apr 09 2007 : 08:01:26 AM
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| Hey K-man....under the heading of "None of My Gol-Durn Business...", I'm wondering why you want to push further into kechari if you're already experiencing a highly ecstatic Stage 2. Just curious. Are you at all wary of the energy overload that plagues some AYPers? A few months isn't all that long to be hanging out in kechari 2, especially if the energy is flowing as you say. I ask for personal reasons, rather than criticism of yours.. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2007 : 11:36:29 AM
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Try to find a dentist who does laser surgery. much less bleeding, faster recovery, safer, etc. $550 sounds way too expensive to me.
Meg, I was going to post my reasons (though you asked Kirtanman, I think), but it's like a progression of dominoes, a very complex story. I'm not sure I can do it in under 3000 words. But i'll try later. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 10 2007 11:32:16 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2007 : 12:20:20 PM
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Ok, I've whipped this up quickly, and without a lot of explanation (if I explained everything, it'd have been even longer). Hopefully those facing similar issues will get something out of it.
I practiced Taoist Microcosmic Orbit for years. Always had blockage in the front channel (the "down" part). This led to TMJ (didn't realize the cause at the time) which was quite disabling. TMJ is nearly always about energy pooling above the big divide between upper and lower palate.
Note: in taoist practice as in yoga, the divide is bridged via the tongue. The taoists do stage one kechari.
It's kooky, but on my first day of AYP practice kundalini awoke. It was bumpy, but not awful. Lots of pressure in the head. Yogani suggested (via email) AYP pranayama, but it didn't seem right for me to start something new, or to do a practice that brought energy both up and down, since I had what felt like the entire universe moving upward, and I needed to concentrate on downward.
So I dropped AYP for a while and reverted to Taoist practice, concentrating hard on the front channel. Kundalini had given me much better/deeper interior visualization skills, so I was able to work on the block. I also borrowed a tai chi move that proved a godsend:
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stand with feet separated, knees comfortably bent into a half crouch, pressing your feet firmly and evenly into the floor (advanced move: press down with the point in the lateral center of your foot, between the balls of your big and little toes, down right at the point where the arch starts to form). Keep your back more or less straight but tilt it forward, as if you were ready to pounce. Go for a low, stable, center of gravity, like it would be hard for someone to knock you over. But relax.
Bend elbows 90 degrees and extend forearms directly in front of you, parallel to each other and with palms facing, at navel level. Keep shoulders relaxed. Visualize a ball between your hands. Concentrate on that ball, and fill it with energy.
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After a few weeks, I was feeling better (I thought I was adjusting to kundalini, but it had actually gone dormant...it's really hard to tell the diff without lots of experience) and returned to AYP. I dropped the model of the macrocosmic orbit, and fully bought in to shushumna as a two-way route.
AYP pranayama was weird for me. Up was nearly instant, down was an effort. Better some days than others. I worked at it patiently. Learned not to force. learned to "let" things go down rather than "make" them go down. Learned that downward can feel as holy as upward, too. But, still, things were more sluggish on downward side. OTOH, in everyday life, as soon as my jaw throbbed, or I had any feeling of head pressure, I could do an exhale and visualize downward movement, and things would drain. Getting better.
I ignored my front channel...because I didn't want to bring my Taoist mapping into AYP practice.
Kundalini started awakening more and more frequently, to the point where it would light up in every practice session (and in moments of beauty, inspiration, pain, emotion, and sheer randomness outside practice). I coped with it better and better, and the perception of energy became less disruptive to my meditation. Samyama, particularly, taught me that even as I perceived myself as roiling in ecstatic energy, even as I found myself moaning like a porno actor, there was a calmer core inside the roiling, and the roiling was just experience spinning around that stationary anchor. Yogani wrote it a thousand times (favoring practice not experiences), but living it is another thing. It's koshas, they're like nesting dolls, and you just have to associate yourself less and less with the outer ones and more and more inhabit the innermost (silence).
Things were a lot better, but downward was still something to work at. And I developed high blood pressure, which manifests especially during exercise. i was wondering why I'd feel tired when running, even though my heart rate wasn't THAT high and my muscles and breathing were all feeling pretty calm. Stress test discovered that while resting blood pressure was high normal, under exertion, I was going into stroke territory.
I was forced onto high blood pressure medication (because the best cure is to lose 20 pounds, but I can't lose the weight unless I work out hard, and I can't work out hard without dying unless I'm on the meds). They made me drowsy and screwed up my practice. But I like screwing up my practice. Silence is omnipresent despite all other factors. So it's good to learn to inhabit silence in spite of a wide range of factors http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1137
Soon, I became aware that in exercise, energy was pooling in my head. That was surely the problem. So running on a treadmill became a spiritual practice, where I applied oodles of concentration to bringing it down (not easy to do when you're huffing and puffing and exerting). My performance vastly improved (I'd been on a pathetic running plateau for years), and I was getting less bleary-feeling.
Then Yogani posted something about "front channel" a few weeks ago, which surprised me, but I felt liberated to return to thinking about front channel. In exercise, I touched tongue to roof of mouth and let energy drain not just down my shushumna, but also down my front (it's not enough just to touch tongue...at least in my case, I need to willfully allow the movement). It was like a flood, and it felt incredibly nourishing. Bingo.
I started allowing this front channel opening in meditation, too (but never during pranayama!), in spite of my deep seated reluctance to ever try to control anything in meditation. It was an enormous improvement. Instead of waves crashing at ajna, I felt incredibly calmer. There was flow instead of, like, EVENTS. And for the first time, i was able to meditate with my mouth shut.
When I'm really handling movement of energy down front channel, i feel like I'm sucking away at my head with my tongue. I noticed this in meditation, and it opened me up to the whole thing much more deeply. I moved tongue back to soft palate, and the sucking increased. And I instinctually tried to get behind uvula....but....damned frenum. However, I got a lot further back instinctually on the basis of this sucking craving than I ever had before.
So I know what I need to do and it's time to nix the frenum. I'm making huge/fast progress in evening up my up/down flow, I see that kechari is what I want and need. My tongue is like a whimpering puppie, frequently pleading with me to be taken back. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Apr 10 2007 11:52:50 PM |
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Going to a "Professional" for Frenum Removal
