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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 01 2006 : 10:21:05 PM
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Recently I read the Hatha Yoga Pradipika (HYP) (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hatha_Yoga_Pradipika) and lines 61 and 62 raised some questions for me.
"61. Bitter, sour, saltish, green vegetables, fermented, oily, mixed with til seed, rape seed, intoxicating liquors, fish, meat, curds, chhaasa pulses, plums, oil-cake, asafoetida (hinga), garlic, onion, etc., should not be eaten.
62. Food heated again, dry, having too much salt, sour, minor grains, and vegetables that cause burning sensation, should not be eaten. Fire, women, travelling, etc., should be avoided."
My daily diet consists of tempeh, tofu, basmati rice, green beans and soy bean sprouts.. all rolled into turkish bread (milk, egg, yeast free) and fried slightly on organic olive oil. As for drinks I mainly drink organic soy milk or just water. I also take a daily vitamin/mineral supplement tablet.
Now I'm wondering if I should stop eating the green beans? What is the problem with green vegetables, does anyone know why HYP states not to consume them?
Also, if any yogic dietitians here see any holes in my diet then your advice is welcome :) |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2006 : 10:43:53 PM
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| better avoid fire, women and travelling as well! |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 01:59:12 AM
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| I do! LOL. Its the green vegetables that puzzle me hahaha. |
Edited by - Chiron on Dec 02 2006 03:22:17 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 10:42:34 AM
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I think you should ignore it altogether! Green vegetables are the most healthy food we have. Each person has a unique metabolism, and there is no single diet that is good for everyone. i think the information was specific to a time and region that it was written in, not to all regions and modern times.
Why would they group all green vegetables together? There are sour and sweet greens, alkaline and acid, highly evolved and barely evolved,
polar and equatorial greens. How could these all be the same?
the only thing they have in common is chlorophyl, which is very close to our blood chemistry, and so beneficial for us.
Also, if you really wanted to follow it, it says eliminate oily, so you'd have to give up the olive oil. eliminate "til seed", which is sesame. eliminate "fermented" which includes tempeh and tofu, etc.
Also, there is modern information that tells us that wheat is bad for most people, and vitamin and mineral supplements are detrimental when taken all the time, bean sprouts have detrimental effects when eaten often. So you really need to determine what's best for yourself, and don't just believe someone else's ideas about diet because they have good spiritual information in general. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Dec 02 2006 1:27:58 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 1:27:57 PM
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Chiron,
I've always believed that the scriptures of the world generally contain matter of mixed quality, not all gems, more like a mix of gems and stones. And indeed, you may have found a stone here. I agree with Ether that you should ignore it entirely. Green vegetables are very good for you, and make you feel good too, and, in my experience, fit right into a yogic life.
I've questioned the general prohibition on garlic too, since garlic seems to be quite good for most people (though the prohibition may be useful for certain people who are practicing brahmacharya, that is, avoiding sex).
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 02 2006 1:30:04 PM |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 1:42:16 PM
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I have to agree with david here but just to follow scripture I would certainly avoid green meats!
But seriously perhaps it was mistranslated and was intended to mean unripe (green) fruits or vegetables |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 2:29:46 PM
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Hi Chiron,
I agree with Ether and David. This "green vegetables" is a bit misleading..
If you read 64...
64. Wheat, rice, barley, shâstik (a kind of rice), good corns, milk, ghee, sugar, butter, sugarcandy, honey, dried ginger, Parwal (a vegetable), the five vegetables, moong, pure water, these are very beneficial to those who practice Yoga.
Parwal is a green vegetable too.
Also the five vegetables that they are talking about.. from the part of India I come from its called "Pach (five) mishali (mixture) – ‘mixture of 5 vegetables’" beans is 1 of the 5 vegetables... and at times spinach is added to it too... (unless of course the five vegetables mentioned above are something completely different!!!!)
So if you are happy with your diet now, and it is working out well for you, just stick to it..
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 3:08:30 PM
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I think the yogic diet tries to avoid an excess of fiber. The diet suggestions are for making the alchemical process in GI tract work more efficiently. At least that's what I've found.
It isn't that big of a deal. Yoga works without changing your diet...even if all you eat is meat, and all you drink is liquor. |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 3:37:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
"...perhaps it was...intended to mean unripe (green) fruits or vegetables."
Namaste Chiron:
I think Victor's comment is right on target. As I was taught, the use of the word 'green' is in reference to vegetables that are not yet fully ripe for harvest, but not otherwise in reference to vegetables which are green in color.
Similarly, the use of the word 'fermented' is in reference to foods that have gone sour because they were not eaten soon enough. Nowadays, we could include things that are soured 'left-overs' for too long from previous meals, and are thus no longer fit for further consumption.  We must remember that in the days when the writings in question were formulated, many of the foods we eat today...including deliberately fermented, nutritious foods like Tofu and Tempeh...were not a normal part of the Indian dietary regimen. 
Additionally, bear in mind that modern refrigeration appliances did not exist, so foods prepared fresh daily were a necessity, especially in the normally hot and humid jungle climate found in many parts of India. This is why re-heated foods were considered unfit for healthy consumption, too. 
There may still be some merit, however, to avoiding 'fiery' women in combination with liquor while travelling away from home!  Can you say "DWI and Big Bail Bond"? 
Getting back to topic here, I first read a priceless, life changing book in 1971 devoted to intelligently establishing and maintaining a healthy vegetarian diet called 'Diet for a Small Planet' by Frances Moore Lappe. A companion book followed called 'Recipes for a Small Planet' by Ellen Buchman Ewald, which is filled with wonderful recipes based on the principles of Lappe's work. I highly recommend both books to anyone interested in pursuing a healthy vegetarian diet.
Here are a couple of links to sites thay may assist in making personally informed yogic dietary decisions:
http://dreamhawk.com/y-chap2.htm
http://www.bluelotusayurveda.com/di...yle_art.html
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Dec 02 2006 4:15:29 PM |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 3:47:58 PM
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Unripe! That makes sense. Wonder how many other things were lost in translation...
Thank you all for the great replies! |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 4:41:01 PM
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Doc,
quote:
We must remember that in the days when the writings in question were formulated, many of the foods we eat today...including deliberately fermented, nutritious foods like Tofu and Tempeh...were not a normal part of the Indian dietary regimen.
I've found that fermented foods calm the kundalini a lot. I tried it with kefir. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 5:42:02 PM
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Doc said:
As I was taught, the use of the word 'green' is in reference to vegetables that are not yet fully ripe for harvest, but not otherwise in reference to vegetables which are green in color.
Similarly, the use of the word 'fermented' is in reference to foods that have gone sour because they were not eaten soon enough.
When I hear this, I wonder if those who delivered those alternative interpretations are defending the status of scripture. When scripture produces some dubious stuff, people often gerry-rig the interpretation to make the scripture seem right.
I can't be sure, but in this case, it seems odd that the many sanskrit scholars that provided the translation cannot distinguish 'fermented' from 'rotten'. And indeed, it is so obvious not to eat what is rotten that it hardly even needs mention in the scripture. Likewise, would the author, or the translator(s be saying 'green vegetables' if the author means 'unripe vegetables'? This seems extremely odd, considering that many vegetables are green. The HYP was written in the 14th century, not that long ago.
A more likely explanation in my mind is that the author is making some mistakes. However, I would be interested in hearing from some Sanskrit experts, particularly any who are not biased towards defending the status of scripture and can discuss it impartially.
What's wrong with plums? Or bitter vegetables, some of which, like bitter gourd and broccoli rabe are supposed to be very good for you?
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 02 2006 5:58:54 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 6:35:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Doc said:
As I was taught, the use of the word 'green' is in reference to vegetables that are not yet fully ripe for harvest, but not otherwise in reference to vegetables which are green in color.
Similarly, the use of the word 'fermented' is in reference to foods that have gone sour because they were not eaten soon enough.
When I hear this, I wonder if those who delivered those alternative interpretations are defending the status of scripture. When scripture produces some dubious stuff, people often gerry-rig the interpretation to make the scripture seem right.
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/image..._wm_tell.jpg
David:
And why does what I posted have to be an "alternative interpretation...defending the status of the scripture"?  Because it's alternative to what you think?  And because you have said so? So again, only your opinion and interpretation is valid?  Sheeesh!
Hari OM!
Doc |
Edited by - Doc on Dec 03 2006 02:23:33 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 7:11:08 PM
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"intoxicating liquors" and "curds" shows that they DID have knowledge of fermented foods. Beer production has always produced a by product of healthy non-alcoholic food, and cheese production too. I don't think it was a matter of cleanliness; they didn't say don't pick up something off the ground and eat it, or wash your hands after using the bathroom.
But all these possible language differences not only supports my contention that the instructions were for a different time and place, but also makes me wonder what spiritual instructions are we misunderstanding, or should be changed for our time? Somebody should start some sort of online yoga instructions that have been tested in our time and proven to work, or something. . . |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 7:57:01 PM
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| Here's a test, Ether...order some kefir grains, make your own kefir and drink a big glass of it every day for a few months. Tell me if you notice much decreased kundalini activity, as I did. A good way to test things like this in our time. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 8:40:33 PM
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Since the basic human biology hasn't really changed, I also expect that kefir, along with other fermented foods, was good for (many) yogis in that time too, a few hundred years ago.
Ether said:
Somebody should start some sort of online yoga instructions that have been tested in our time and proven to work, or something. . .
That's a great idea.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 02 2006 8:43:20 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 9:15:04 PM
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Actually David, the HYP says fermented foods are "damaging to the yogi" which I suspect means it lessens the effects of yoga. Or someone could take it to mean that it could physically harm a yoga practitioner if they were to take fermented foods...although this seems unlikely, but possible.
In my case, excess energy symptoms went down to practically nothing and I felt really great. So I interpret that verse from the HYP as the "harmful foods" tend to tone down excess kundalini activity. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 9:27:16 PM
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In my case, excess energy symptoms went down to practically nothing and I felt really great. So I interpret that verse from the HYP as the "harmful foods" tend to tone down excess kundalini activity.
What about the bitter vegetables, plums, asafoetida and garlic? They don't tone down kundalini at all, do they? Quite the opposite for most of them. The bottom line is that all of these foods have an appropriate place in the yogi's larder, whether for tamping down kundalini or otherwise.
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Dec 02 2006 : 9:35:42 PM
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| I haven't noticed the opposite with those, although I tend to avoid them...so perhaps the oppsite effect does happen. Good point. |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2006 : 10:16:43 AM
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Doc said:
David:
And why does what I posted have to be an "alternative interpretation...defending the status of the scripture"? Because it's alternative to what you think? And because you have said so? So again, only your opinion and interpretation is valid? Sheeesh!
My word 'alternative' meant nothing more than an alternative to the common interpretation that Chiron was starting with. No offense meant by any means in that term. Sometimes 'alternative' is better.
As regards the rest, I'm just posting my opinion on this question. One big question to ask is if I can post that opinion here without upsetting you in some way. I regret the upset (I really do) but I don't know how to avoid it without posting my opinion at all. If you have any tips on how I can post it without annoying you I'd be happy to hear them. I really would, because I want you to have as good a time here as possible.
You have a lot of learning and knowledge, and even though you've only been here a short time, many people are appreciating it already and are glad to have you here. There may be something of a 'culture clash' between you and me, and every once in a while I'll be questioning things you say, or disagreeing. Many times after I speak you still disagree, some times on reflection you may agree, and likewise you may convince me to change my opinion at times. Exactly the same thing will happen with people listening in. It's all part of the Adventure Camp, and it's way different from the older Traditions in which there was a definite and 'authoritative' (but often wrong) answer for everything.
Part of what I tend to 'specialize' in in my posts (for now, for whatever reason) is integrating yoga with science and rationality and critical thinking. I'm not making the mistake that yoga is just science and rationality -- rather this is just part of my focus, my unofficial specialization if you will, and I am not exclusively focused on it either. The very 'culture' of critical thinking is not 'pious' and it tends to grate on people who orbit in a more pious culture. That's not to say that my demeanor could not be improved.... well, I'm working on it. Always.... My choice of focus is probably not your own choice of focus right now, and that's fine. People will listen to you for your own strengths. The stuff I say won't get in the way of that.
One option for you is to just roll your eyes and say to yourself "I'm not going to let just one dork spoil my Adventure Camp!". But do that alone -- don't write it here!!!  If you don't let the dork spoil your adventure camp, the dork may become a buddy in the long run. If you do let the dork spoil your adventure camp, both buddy and adventure camp will be lost. Gee, that has a nice scriptural ring to it!
Enjoy AYP!
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 03 2006 2:07:16 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2006 : 10:25:33 AM
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P.S. 'Defending the status of scripture' is very common and even unconscious. Just a BTW Doc, I didn't say you were doing it yourself, but rather that some of that stuff about this interpretation may have come to you from someone who was. It stems from the presumption that there are no mistakes in the underlying work, and if things are not working out, that the errors have to be on the part of the translator's and the interpretation. Many illustrious Yogis do it too, some of them famous in the West, but I won't elaborate on that. From my point-of-view, this is just one of the things that has to be taken into account in interpreting something that has gained 'scriptural' status; it's part of my discrimination.
No offense meant to anyone, whether defending scripture or not.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2006 : 11:02:34 AM
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scott said:
"order some kefir grains, make your own kefir and drink a big glass of it every day for a few months"
isn't kefir milk that has been processed by bacteria? What are kefir grains? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4378 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2006 : 4:02:18 PM
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quote:
David wrote:
One option for you is to just roll your eyes and say to yourself "I'm not going to let just one dork spoil my Adventure Camp!". But do that alone -- don't write it here!!!
Hi David,
I appreciate the effort you are making here to find some reconciliation in your ongoing dispute with Doc. But hold on a minute if you read it carefully, your advice is effectively censorship . You are saying, "let me post whatever I like, because I am exploring yoga and science, and if you don’t like it, that’s fine, but don’t post it here!"
Why not say instead “I will not constantly dispute the rational behind your posts, if you do not constantly dispute the rational behind mine. But if you really strongly feel that something is wrong then please say so.”
L&L
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 03 2006 4:10:24 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2006 : 4:39:32 PM
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Christi said:
You are saying, "let me post whatever I like, because I am exploring yoga and science, and if you don’t like it, that’s fine, but don’t post it here!"
Did I say that Doc should not have posted what he posted? No. More like trying to help him accomodate to my own posts without getting upset. So I just can't agree about the censorship bit.
Why not say instead “I will not constantly dispute the rational behind your posts, if you do not constantly dispute the rational behind mine. But if you really strongly feel that something is wrong then please say so.”
Because I don't mind him disputing the rationale behind my posts, and want to be able to dispute the rationale behind his. I won't do it constantly either. If it happened unusually frequently recently, it's largely coincidence, like when it rains it pours. ( There is a good case to be made, however, that I should not let my disagreements 'pour' on someone who is settling in -- my bad. I'm learning, sorry. ) If someone does take the time to settle in here, they'll see that I generally let people have their own opinions, and don't generally insist on the last word on something.
Nothing is perfect or ideal anywhere, so patience is needed everywhere.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Dec 03 2006 4:57:30 PM |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2006 : 5:12:52 PM
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David:
I have no problem with your posting of any opinion that you wish share, and I don't care whether your opinion is in agreement with anything I post. Think what you will and say what you will. I have no desire to control any of that, and no desire to convince you of anything. Nor do I wish to engage you in any ongoing argument and debate about anything!
I have simply attempted to confront your tendency to express alot of opinions that seem to be based on basic thinking errors, yet stated as if these opinions are the factual final word on the subject for everyone who reads them. These 'errors' include assumptions, which may or may not be correct, and 'mind reading' regarding people that you cannot possibly know to be correct one way or the other. You are of course welcome to continue in this way if you wish to do so, but know that when these assumptions, mind readings, justifications of personal views, and other thinking errors are made in reference to my posts or the teachings and writings of my Teacher, I will confront you on them again. OK? Cool! 
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Green Vegetables ?
