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vrandy
Canada
7 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 15 2016 : 1:48:23 PM
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Hi,
I have been practicing DM for about 2 months with almost twice-daily practices. Prior to that about 18 months of MBSR.
I am trying to make sense of what progress looks like during a DM session. I have read about the purification process in the AYP lessons and I think that Yogani wrote that an example of a "successful" session would be that one starts with the mantra, quickly loses track of it, and come back to it at the very end of the session.
Outside meditation circles some might call this "zoning out" but there is not such a thing in AYP, right ?
How is it that "losing the mantra" is an effective transformation process? Is the idea that when one starts repeating the mantra, one sets a process in motion that continues, "underground" so to speak, even without further mantra repetition? Like pushing a toy boat on the surface of a bathtub and the toy glides without further push ? The more mantra repetitions, the farther the boat goes? |
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sunyata
USA
1508 Posts |
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Jayleno214
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2016 : 2:49:43 PM
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Be aware that when you hear or read "mantra" it is implied to mean "sound of ayam".
So the sound if ayam within (not externally vocalized, must make this clear) produces purification.
The example you quitesvis one of many ways it can happen. Another way is never losing the mantra. Then theres many more scenarios in between.
Take it from me, you wont get answers that satisfies your curiosity here, and rightly so. Youll get what you need, practice instructions. With that you will see for yourself in time.
Just repeat the sound if ayam internally, and when you are no longer repeating it, if it happens at all, beginvrepeating it again. There is also another point, that to be honest i havent quite mastered or experienced, but still derived postive changes, and that is that when you lose it and realize it, you can repeat the mantra at that level of silence u were in when you realized you stopped repeating the mantra, this way you continue into more silence.
There are more experienced members who may respond, id just like to help you amd encourage you to continue regardless of what may come.
Edit: i wanted to add that you lose the mantra mostly through a thought. ex: You are repeating the mantra then all of a sudden you are thinking about something (sometimes about meditation itself). And Sometimes you notice yourself losing the grip on the mantra and other times out of nowhere you are lost.
Its not that it is perfect practice or not, its just that its normal, therefore you are on the right track if that happens to you, if at all. Thats what it means to say.
Have faith, you are lucky to happen upon this info!. |
Edited by - Jayleno214 on Jan 15 2016 9:50:39 PM |
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Dogboy
USA
2207 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2016 : 4:11:34 PM
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Welcome!
quote:
How is it that "losing the mantra" is an effective transformation process? Is the idea that when one starts repeating the mantra, one sets a process in motion that continues, "underground" so to speak, even without further mantra repetition? Like pushing a toy boat on the surface of a bathtub and the toy glides without further push ? The more mantra repetitions, the farther the boat goes?
I've been doing DM two and a half years and I don't recall ever fully losing the mantra; sometimes it's strong and consistant, sometimes it's soft and fuzzy, sometimes it fluctuates between the the foreground and the background. I do like your illustration of the toy boat and believe the mantra repetition does build a kind of momentum overall. If you follow the simple rule of favoring the mantra or returning to it when you are someplace else, then that is really all you have to do. Success is determined outside of practice in your everyday interactions and mood. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2016 : 12:38:19 AM
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Getting lost is a byproduct of easily favoring, not a deliberate effort in its own right. It can happen slowly, or quickly, or maybe not at all (like Dogboy reported).
If we consider the mind to be like a mansion, and we need to cleans its rooms, and in the process of cleaning the rooms, we get lost and find ourselves in a previously undiscovered, uncleaned room, this is good, because we can clean what we have stumbled upon, thereby increasing the square footage of clean space. By simply following our mission of cleaning whatever we stumble upon, we will cover lots of territory, without needing to pick and choose our rooms. That's how stillness gets cultivated--by favoring the mantra regardless of the scenery.
Also, I would say it's more like "zoning in" than "zoning out". It's zoning in by refining a sound into silence, without needing to micro-manage the mind. Deep Meditation is an inward movement into the zone of stillness.  |
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jan 16 2016 09:51:57 AM |
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Dennis
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2016 : 02:54:37 AM
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I think what vrandy may mean by zoning out is feeling like you've fallen asleep. This happens to me at times, I'll suddenly become aware and then start repeating the mantra. From what I've read, the falling asleep feeling is deeper purification going on (correct me if I'm wrong), so I would think it's a good thing.
I guess it's possible to go deep for the entire 20 minutes and not repeat the mantra but it doesn't happen that way for me.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2016 : 09:51:10 AM
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Yes, zoning out, or drifting into a sleep-like state, can definitely be part of the scenery. Good point, Dennis.  |
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Dogboy
USA
2207 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2016 : 11:14:15 AM
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| And this is why I love AYP, it's hard to "screw it up" to the point it's ineffective; simple is as simple goes. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2016 : 7:21:25 PM
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vrandy,
Mmm... What part of you even remembers the mantra...mmm |
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vrandy
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2016 : 2:28:53 PM
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Thanks for all your feedback and for the suggested readings. 
I did listen to the audio version of the book on DM and have read through the paper-based AYP lessons. It is good to be able to ask questions.
Based on the responses I can point in my own practices to various manifestations of the scenery: other thoughts coming over the mantra - with more or less intensity, I try to pay attention to what extent I favor the mantra and when I seem to try to overcome the other thoughts with the mantra, in which case I pause and see a little while if favoring the mantra is then possible.
Other times I "come back" from sort of sleepiness, other times all is very quiet inside and I see if thinking the mantra completely is too much work, in which case I just remain in silence, until I can start repeating the mantra again.
I reflect on the fact that behind my question may be a quest for improvement (the quicker the better) and I know that this is a trap in itself if I get attached to it. Yet I think that having a better sense of how this practice works is valuable (and I can let go when I catch myself looking for a quick fix).
Namaste ! |
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sunyata
USA
1508 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2016 : 2:50:45 PM
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quote:
I reflect on the fact that behind my question may be a quest for improvement (the quicker the better) and I know that this is a trap in itself if I get attached to it. Yet I think that having a better sense of how this practice works is valuable (and I can let go when I catch myself looking for a quick fix)
Beautiful vrandy  |
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Dogboy
USA
2207 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2016 : 10:09:46 PM
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| Agreed |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jan 19 2016 : 09:20:25 AM
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| Wishing for progress is good, and surrendering to the technique is what brings optimal progress. And progress is most reflected during the time following the session, due to the purification and opening that creates more inner space, thereby improving functionality while engaged with the world (stillness in action). |
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vrandy
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2016 : 1:30:51 PM
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Thanks for the continuing support.
I will be watching to what extent I favor the mantra vs. forcing it. During the DM session last evening, I paid attention to that aspect of my practice. I reminded myself (as a junior meditator) that it should be as easy as breathing in and out (no effort, no struggle). As I see it, it is such a fine line.
On a different note, I have introduced SBP in my practice. Even with a very choppy delivery of the technique and only 2 SBP sessions under my belt, wow, what a difference this seems to make in what I experience after the session. Much mental clarity and calmness today.
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Dogboy
USA
2207 Posts |
Posted - Jan 20 2016 : 1:53:31 PM
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| You are on your way! |
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MrCuddly
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2016 : 3:16:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think what vrandy may mean by zoning out is feeling like you've fallen asleep. This happens to me at times, I'll suddenly become aware and then start repeating the mantra.
When i first started DM, this would happen all the time and felt like part of the process. I would come really close to falling asleep and then get these dreamy kind of thoughts exactly like in the seconds before dozing off. Except i wouldn't doze off, I'd just going back and forth between the mantra and dreamy thoughts.
Since this is what usually happened I assumed it was the process. I came out of it very refreshed like after a nap, but not groggy.
However this mostly stopped when I added the spinal breathing before. After SB the pre-dream thoughts are seldom there anymore. I don't feel QUITE as refreshed afterwards, but find myself going into stillness faster and longer - which helps greatly for Samyama or Om chanting afterwards.
For me it's a different experience with the SB before but I definitely prefer it.
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Edited by - MrCuddly on Feb 10 2016 3:49:29 PM |
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DM or zoning out ?
