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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 12:03:37 AM
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Greetings All,
I've spoken with a few other folks in this fine community and there seems to be some consensus in the prevalence of an awareness, of a level of being, which floats above the crown by approximately 8-12 inches.
In my own practice, I have spent a fair amount of time fixedly attuned to this higher point and honestly feel that it is yet, another chakra or at least, something akin to a chakra. Granted, it is one which exists "outside" of the materiel shell and it's seven ascending energy centers.
From the ecstatic vantage point of this vortex of conscious-awareness, the material body seems but a bag of meat. Not in any way existent apart from the Unified Field of Being but still... the physical frame is locked into the dichotomy of the time-space-continuum. This effulgent center seems wholly untouched by material causality and exists wholly interconnected to the Spirit. 
I just wanted to exchange some ideas about this spiritual phenomenon. I find that when I am present with it's transcendent fulcrum, I am totally enveloped within the euphoric ecstasy of the state of sheer Ananda. It seems to be my entire being and what I have always been (always will be). 
Thoughts? I wonder how many of you good people have experienced this 8th chakra, floating above the material body? It seems to be accessible from the top of the crown and is most beautiful to discover.
I call it, "the mind's heart", although it is something which surely exists as a presence, within the mind and heart of humankind, yet unborn and ineffably untouched. It draws my attention vertically and I truly honor it's Divine guidance and joyously revel in it's presence, each time I encounter it's reality.
Om Shanti, Shanti, Shanti  |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 03:59:41 AM
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Hi Govinder,
Yes, there is an eighth chakra above the crown. It is sometimes called the soul star, and is, as you say, unconnected to the material realm. It is connected to the crown and can drip light into the crown. It isn't mentioned much in yoga, because it isn't one of the main controls in terms of awakening. It is one of the fruits of yoga. It is a part of ourself which is always unaffected by karma, and remains pure.
Christi |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 07:22:39 AM
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Hi Govinda,
Yes, I have experienced this eighth (or ninth depending on the system) chakra. As you say, attention on it is associated with sheer ananda and is definitely beyond the confines of body-mind. This is not a chakra that one can experience through will and focus, IMHO - one just sort of floats up into that frequency spontaneously. I also experience a state of levitation at this center - an intense sensation of being pulled up and of being totally weightless. This chakra (and others above it), are the portals to astral realms, gurus and deities (at least in my experience). In some systems, the chakra below the feet (about 12 inches into the ground) is called the eighth, and the ones above the crown 9-12 (just for your academic interest  ). It is a very different experience to drop down to that chakra..
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 09:15:59 AM
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Hi Govinda,
As everyone has said, the 8th chakra is above the crown. But, in my experience, it is really more of an integration point or completion of the body chakras. The seven main body chakras "merge and integrate" back into the heart (often called the second chamber) and then the eighth opens. There is a direct connection between inner heart and 8th. Also as Christi described, it beyond the material (and also astral) level. It is the beginning of "oneness" at a human level.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
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Roberto
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 10:01:51 AM
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Hi Govinda, Christi, Kami, and Jeff !
Thank You for this wonderful thread and these replies. This is a huge help clarifying something that happens here that had me confused 
Christi, when you say it can drip light into the crown, that is Exactly the sensation experienced here-- Liquid Electric Bliss, dripping into a cup. It first happened some 25 years ago at a seminar for a derivative (copycat) Sant Mat group that will remain nameless  . There was a sensation of fluttering at the crown, not that common tingling, but a more physical sensation that had never been felt before. This I now understand was the crown turning upward from it's dormant, downward facing position, forming an upturned cup-like structure.
Next I had the feeling Kami describes of being lifted up, to that spot a foot or so above, felt like levitating, and then a current proceeded to come down from this region, and the sensation was Exactly as if was being caught in that cup, and then proceeded downward. The bliss was incredible, this lasted for 20 minutes or so, only interrupted once by my dear wife as she was shocked by the non-stop flow of tears and my upturned eyes. Even the fake guru looked over a dozen times or so, this confused me for the next 25 years that it had been darshan or a first initiation.
So for a long time, after hearing of "premature crown awakenings" and the cautions etc surrounding them, I was convinced that this had happened here, as at the time I did no lower chakra work, we went straight to ajna, as was the practice with the Sant Mat teachings this group's were based on. But as it was the most beautiful experience, I was confused how this could be the case. Reading Jeff's post, "The seven main body chakras "merge and integrate" back into the heart (often called the second chamber) and then the eighth opens." seems to suggest that if the eighth opens then all the others have merged and integrated back into the heart, then how could this possibly be "premature in terms of the crown ?" Reading this now it seems pretty clear to me that it is Not, but I would appreciate any opinions. The feeling of "Oneness" was such that I would have stayed in that state forever
Now it happens in astral state only, and as Kami has stated, there is no effort or intent. I always view it as darshan and express a heartfelt thank you
Peace and Much Love to You All
Roberto |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 12:51:08 PM
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Hi Roberto,
Yes, it is "liquid electric bliss" that drips form the eighth chakra into the crown. And yes, when the petals at the crown activate as it turns up it can create a kind of fluttering sensation.
Having activity at the crown (or above) does not mean necessarily that you are going through a premature crown opening. It depends on the state of the rest of the nervous system. If the crown activates before the rest of the body is ready, then this is premature, and there will be suffering accordingly. If there is no suffering, then it is not premature, but right on time. Then the opening of the crown is a gradual (and surprisingly uneventful), dissolution into pure bliss consciousness.
I was playing a game of I-spy with my 8 year old daughter 2 weeks ago. She spied something that was "gold" and I had to guess it. I guessed a couple of things in the room that were gold, but it wasn't either of them. So I asked for a clue. She said she could see it with her eyes closed. So I asked if it was the inside of her eyelids. She said "no", so I gave up and asked her to tell me what it was. She said it was the 5 gold rings that she could see above her head with her eyes closed. She said it was the rings of gold that go up towards that star that is silver and gold and keeps changing colours. She said that she can see it every time she closes her eyes.
Awakened children.
But going back to your post.... As Jeff said, the purification and integration of the lower 7 chakras will cause the 8th to come into play, but there can be experiences at the 8th chakra and the crown together before the lower chakras are activated and purified. So the one (experiences at the 8th or 7th chakras) does not necessarily imply the other (full purification of the lower chakras).
Christi |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 1:20:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
Hi Govinda, Christi, Kami, and Jeff !
Thank You for this wonderful thread and these replies. This is a huge help clarifying something that happens here that had me confused
Christi, when you say it can drip light into the crown, that is Exactly the sensation experienced here-- Liquid Electric Bliss, dripping into a cup. It first happened some 25 years ago at a seminar for a derivative (copycat) Sant Mat group that will remain nameless . There was a sensation of fluttering at the crown, not that common tingling, but a more physical sensation that had never been felt before. This I now understand was the crown turning upward from it's dormant, downward facing position, forming an upturned cup-like structure.
Next I had the feeling Kami describes of being lifted up, to that spot a foot or so above, felt like levitating, and then a current proceeded to come down from this region, and the sensation was Exactly as if was being caught in that cup, and then proceeded downward. The bliss was incredible, this lasted for 20 minutes or so, only interrupted once by my dear wife as she was shocked by the non-stop flow of tears and my upturned eyes. Even the fake guru looked over a dozen times or so, this confused me for the next 25 years that it had been darshan or a first initiation.
So for a long time, after hearing of "premature crown awakenings" and the cautions etc surrounding them, I was convinced that this had happened here, as at the time I did no lower chakra work, we went straight to ajna, as was the practice with the Sant Mat teachings this group's were based on. But as it was the most beautiful experience, I was confused how this could be the case. Reading Jeff's post, "The seven main body chakras "merge and integrate" back into the heart (often called the second chamber) and then the eighth opens." seems to suggest that if the eighth opens then all the others have merged and integrated back into the heart, then how could this possibly be "premature in terms of the crown ?" Reading this now it seems pretty clear to me that it is Not, but I would appreciate any opinions. The feeling of "Oneness" was such that I would have stayed in that state forever
Now it happens in astral state only, and as Kami has stated, there is no effort or intent. I always view it as darshan and express a heartfelt thank you
Peace and Much Love to You All
Roberto
Hi Roberto,
What a lovely experience! Thank you for sharing.
One thing that is worth noting is to not make a huge deal out of these experiences. Neither the experience of higher chakras nor astral travel/experiences, meeting divine beings, etc equate to awakening. It is all just pleasant scenery; no true awakening can happen as long we remain identified with the "one" having these experiences. These things come and go at different points of our spiritual journey.
I would have to disagree that the eighth is a culmination/completion of the other seven. As your experience describes, higher chakras can open unexpectedly while the lower remain obstructed. It can be a temporary window into higher understanding but it never becomes a permanent thing. In fact, the imbalanced opening of higher chakras without sufficient clearing of the others may cause severe problems..
As you say, I too take such experiences to be blessings of Grace, Darshan, that occur to intensify Bhakti and resolve on the path. Best not to make too much of them.
Love and regards to you. |
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Roberto
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 1:56:29 PM
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Thank You Christi and Kami for your replies !
I should clarify, Until I heard the term "premature crown opening" I had zero concerns, and this experience was 25 years ago. I didn't mention that lower chakras were obstructed and have no way of knowing, just had not done specific work (this lifetime). There were early kundalini experiences where I took the "feeling of falling" and went with it, went down in the spine, and then shot out either the front or the top. And there has been no suffering, and this was 25 years ago when it first happened. So forget I asked plese  . Until I heard the term here I was completely happy
For me, the scenery in no way ever does anything more than Juice The Bhakti. But Thanks for the Cautionary advice. When Christi described the eighth chakra leaking the liquid electric bliss I wanted to share. I should add that When it is happening here the last thing I am going to do is snap out of the bliss that moment and go practice.
Peace and Love to All |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 2:16:51 PM
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Dear Roberto,
Thank you. I should also clarify that the statement about the eighth not necessarily being the result of culmination of the others is based on my own experience. I wish I could say I have no issues related to chakras 1-7, but then I'd be in total denial which is of no use to anyone. But I do have magnificent experiences on a regular basis. My entire focus at the moment is what any of it means with respect to my daily life. If I'm operating from a place of divisiveness (taking undue credit, needless feelings of spiritual superiority, "righteous indignation.. Subtle hooks, all of them) none of these great experiences mean anything.
My daily life is my ultimate barometer of progress on this path, regardless of what experiences come and go on and off the mat.
Much love to you, dear brother. |
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Roberto
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 2:36:58 PM
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Dear Kami,
When you said that if you are operating from a place of divisiveness (taking undue credit, needless feelings of spiritual superiority, "righteous indignation.. Subtle hooks, all of them) none of these great experiences mean anything," Did my post somehow come across this way, or suggest that I had questions regarding this? Or were you talking about yourself ? If I did would you please let me know what I said that gave you this impression ? I just reread my post and can't figure out how. And there really is not a question here regarding those clearly petty behaviors.
We are in complete agreement on the "daily life barometer" being what matters !! As I understand it, rising inner silence is A GOOD THING . Just got kechari stage 2 and it is like a cathedral in here. Just the OM current humming away
Much Love to You
Roberto |
Edited by - Roberto on Nov 03 2013 2:57:56 PM |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 2:58:30 PM
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Nope, nothing at all to do with you Roberto (or anyone else). Just describing my own perspective of the need for integration of neat experiences and living, that's all.
Cool on Khechari. Enjoy!!
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 3:23:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
...
So for a long time, after hearing of "premature crown awakenings" and the cautions etc surrounding them, I was convinced that this had happened here, as at the time I did no lower chakra work, we went straight to ajna, as was the practice with the Sant Mat teachings this group's were based on. But as it was the most beautiful experience, I was confused how this could be the case. Reading Jeff's post, "The seven main body chakras "merge and integrate" back into the heart (often called the second chamber) and then the eighth opens." seems to suggest that if the eighth opens then all the others have merged and integrated back into the heart, then how could this possibly be "premature in terms of the crown ?" Reading this now it seems pretty clear to me that it is Not, but I would appreciate any opinions. The feeling of "Oneness" was such that I would have stayed in that state forever
...
Hi Roberto,
In the merging and integration of the 7 body chakras that lead to the opening of the eighth there is still plenty of ongoing purification tha needs to be done. But, with it's opening, the mental construct of individual chakras has collasped and is shifted to more of a "unified field" based in the heart. This unified field is what is sometimes also called the beginning of the "light body" (or in Christian terms - soul).
Best,
Jeff |
Edited by - jeff on Nov 03 2013 3:26:03 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 6:04:49 PM
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I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread, but the "8th chakra" for me is what I call "the access point"... It is the point that separates "reality with form" from "reality without form."
Sorry if I am just repeating what others have said .
Love,
Carson  |
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Anima
484 Posts |
Posted - Nov 03 2013 : 9:39:06 PM
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Namaste, Govinda.
Yes, I experience weightlessness and contact/astral projection in this modality. I just watched myself sit on a sofa between two friends during my evening meditation. At least, that's what it seemed like. Fun stuff. I suppose "cum grano salis" is the predominant sentiment. I don't have advice, just my experience.
Thank you for sharing with us.
Love, Light |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2013 : 12:39:31 AM
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Namaste Folks,
I am glad that so many replies have been made and excellent ones, at that! Thanks Roberto, for sharing your ecstatic experience, all those years ago. Big changes are happening for you, dear Brother, a huge shift is again, dawning before your blossoming perception. It's so lovely to have consensus and exchange experiences with one another!
I have spent a good deal of today meditating on the "eight chakra" and come to a revelation of sorts. Granted, it's been slowly building since 1979, the very first time I recall witnessing this transcendental point in supraconsciousness. The initial impression it left upon my fledgling soul-development, was that this was clearly, the seed-self or the over-soul, the Bindu if you will.
Now, I cannot know with any degree of certainty, that my "over-soul" is not also yours... for it may well be true that there is but one seed-self uniting us all. I suspect that this may well be so. One Sacred Love, One eternal Light, One Holy Word emanating from the Bindu.
But I now see that the phenomenon which I have witnessed from bellow, risen upwards to merge within and returned to embrace an empty center ("the cup" or grail/chalice of the 1000 Petaled Lotus), thus receiving Darshan from this pinnacle in conscious-awareness... is my higher self. Who am I? I am That, as are we all, for there is only one of us, despite the mirage of our individual dreamscapes.
But lately, I feel that I have begun to find it is my own unique, innermost being, my Sat Guru... within and above, and is not exactly a chakra in the strictest sense. Rather, it is the undifferentiated self in all of it's enigmatic, resplendent glory (hovering above the material paradigmatic ego-dynamic of the Jivatman). Much as Sri Paramahansa Yogananda wisely said, the material plane hangs beneath the higher realms, "like a bag of flesh".
It is indivisible conscious-awareness in it's unborn state. Which, as dear sister Kami states, allows for an access into myriad spiritual streams, ascending planes/levels of vibratory reality and in and of itself, it remains wholly attuned towards progressively subtler and subtler frequencies of existential being (which abounds limitlessly above, bellow and beyond the ordinary human experiences). All is Sacred when seen in this light.
Still, it is not at all "scenery", it is reality on a more subtle and undifferentiated vibrational rate and frequency. And were the mystical experience merely scenery, what is day to day life? Of what might the I-thought dwell upon which is not some degree of illusion and despite any veil of appearances, is in quintessence, the formlessness of the undivided, insubstantial? A mirrored impression gazing back into the mirror and awakening to free itself by the Divine Remembrance. How is this scenery, when there is no permanent self left to quantify any details of it's own reflection? The grand paradox! I tease because I love.
From a certain angle, it's all just "scenery"... even the blinding effulgence of the Light of Lights, for as long as finite self observes any object, it remains locked into the duality of this and that. Only complete awakening is free of any karmic bondage and the maintenance of the I-thought is then undone in complete surrender to the Undivided reality existent within all expressions of defined form.
Is one illusion not supplanted by yet, another upon blooming exponentially? It's all a dream of Brahman, God's Lila, dancing and unfolding sequentially, through the subjective observation of countless minds and beating hearts. So where and upon what may we rely upon, for any permanence? Is not the ecstasy of Divine Rapture the Nectar of God? Yes it is! So too, the Amrita surely seems to drip down from the "over-soul" into the chalice of the Sahasrara, holding the precious Elixir of Immortality... like falling into a cup.
In unity exists sheer bliss. A euphoria which absorbs the witness into it's fulcrum and effectively dissolves the personal encapsulation of the self, into the Unified Field of the Divine. Such ineffable effulgence dissolves all membranes dividing this and that, self and other, higher and lower frequencies.... into an autonomous drone of spiritual wonderment. Truly, this stops the mind and opens the Spiritual heart or as I call it, when I am consciously divided from it's vortex, "The Mind's Heart".
And where might we look to perceive naught but miraculous transcendental energy at play? As most of us are quite familiar with the story, when Sri Sri Shyamacharan Lahiri Mahasaya was asked just who his Ishta truly was, and he immediately replied, "Ananda". What else survives the transience of human incarnation, when the body returns to so much cosmic dust? Sat Chit Ananda is the All-in-All and the only reality behind the appearances of this, that and the other.
Much love, light and with deepest respect, Govinda
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Edited by - Govinda on Nov 04 2013 08:55:22 AM |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Nov 04 2013 : 11:25:09 PM
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Dear Govinda,
Thanks for starting this interesting thread. I haven't really paid much attention to the individual chakras per se in a long while, although in my youth I was really into that, exploring the different qualities, moving energy through them, etc. Well, upon reading this discussion I have just now realized that what you guys are describing as the "eighth chakra," I've actually been thinking of as the "crown chakra," or an extension thereof, although, as I said, I haven't really THOUGHT about it much in the last few years. But yeah, I'm aware of the phenomena you describe, and the radiance just above the head, but I was perceiving it as all of the chakras joined in the crown chakra, like maybe seeing them from above or something.
quote:
Originally posted by jeff
quote:
Originally posted by Roberto
...
So for a long time, after hearing of "premature crown awakenings" and the cautions etc surrounding them, I was convinced that this had happened here, as at the time I did no lower chakra work, we went straight to ajna, as was the practice with the Sant Mat teachings this group's were based on. But as it was the most beautiful experience, I was confused how this could be the case. Reading Jeff's post, "The seven main body chakras "merge and integrate" back into the heart (often called the second chamber) and then the eighth opens." seems to suggest that if the eighth opens then all the others have merged and integrated back into the heart, then how could this possibly be "premature in terms of the crown ?" Reading this now it seems pretty clear to me that it is Not, but I would appreciate any opinions. The feeling of "Oneness" was such that I would have stayed in that state forever
...
Hi Roberto,
In the merging and integration of the 7 body chakras that lead to the opening of the eighth there is still plenty of ongoing purification tha needs to be done. But, with it's opening, the mental construct of individual chakras has collasped and is shifted to more of a "unified field" based in the heart. This unified field is what is sometimes also called the beginning of the "light body" (or in Christian terms - soul).
Best,
Jeff
Jeff's explanation really resonates with me. I find myself in the heart primarily, but aware of this radiance above which I thought was maybe all the chakras merged together... It's difficult for me to put into words but Jeff's description really sounds familiar.
In my youth, when I actively sought after such things (and before anybody had ever told me about the potential dangers of "premature crown opening"!) I had many experiences related to the crown and beyond, and that sense of "levitation," and liquid ecstasy pouring down over the head. But, at that time my life was kind of crazy and out of balance, and the experiences, while dramatic and intensely beautiful, only made my normal existence that much more unbearable and I really just wanted to go ahead and exit through the crown if that were possible. I was miserable. So yes, in my own experience, I would say it is possible to have such experiences without them being integrated...
Nowadays everything has "settled down" - if you could call a state of nearly continuous body/soul orgasmic ecstasy "settled down," LOL! - I mean, in terms of kundalini phenomena and such. But this awareness of what you guys are calling "the eighth chakra" is just kind of quietly there, so unobtrusive that I didn't even think about it until I read this thread. Personally I wouldn't really call it "scenery" in that it's kind of a steady, constant presence that feels like part of my "spiritual anatomy." But it's not something I usually focus on anyway - I'm resting in the heart and aware of That beaming down from above like the Sun, and if I do go up and focus on it, I get the impression that it contains all the chakras, as mentioned previously. Hard to describe; not sure I am expressing it well... |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 07:32:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Govinda
Still, it is not at all "scenery", it is reality on a more subtle and undifferentiated vibrational rate and frequency. And were the mystical experience merely scenery, what is day to day life? Of what might the I-thought dwell upon which is not some degree of illusion and despite any veil of appearances, is in quintessence, the formlessness of the undivided, insubstantial? A mirrored impression gazing back into the mirror and awakening to free itself by the Divine Remembrance. How is this scenery, when there is no permanent self left to quantify any details of it's own reflection? The grand paradox! I tease because I love.
From a certain angle, it's all just "scenery"... even the blinding effulgence of the Light of Lights, for as long as finite self observes any object, it remains locked into the duality of this and that. Only complete awakening is free of any karmic bondage and the maintenance of the I-thought is then undone in complete surrender to the Undivided reality existent within all expressions of defined form.
Is one illusion not supplanted by yet, another upon blooming exponentially? It's all a dream of Brahman, God's Lila, dancing and unfolding sequentially, through the subjective observation of countless minds and beating hearts. So where and upon what may we rely upon, for any permanence? Is not the ecstasy of Divine Rapture the Nectar of God? Yes it is! So too, the Amrita surely seems to drip down from the "over-soul" into the chalice of the Sahasrara, holding the precious Elixir of Immortality... like falling into a cup.
Dear Govinda,
You describe the paradox well, thank you.
What is "scenery"? To me, anything that retains the subject-object distinction is scenery. Perhaps my standards are very high, but nothing short of dissolving into pure subjectivity (That, Brahman) will do. If there is an "I" perceiving the eighth chakra, astral beings or phenomena, or even my beloved Ishta, what arises is, "Who is this I that sees/knows this?" in the uncompromising style of inquiry of Ramana Maharshi. Thus, even while having deeply mystical experiences, I tend to "step back" in that inquiry until that subject-object distinction dissolves..
But you see, the stepping back into nondual awareness has not become permanent yet. Why? Because there are a myriad karmic obstructions (vasanas) to clear. How do these present? In my daily life, as I was describing in my previous post. There is a development of such sensitivity to discordance between spiritual experiences and my behavior/attitude in daily life that I feel physically ill any time it arises (and it does arise not so rarely ).
I'd say I live from the heart space most of the time. But it is not always. When I step out of it and the ego comes in, there is physical pain and a strange sensation of falling. Thus, how I live in every moment is the true measure of progress - for me. In this context, all else is scenery - for me. If I'm being a selfish jerk or have issues about this or that, it hardly matters whether my chakras have collapsed or I'm meeting Jesus astrally. You know what I mean?
Thank you for this beautiful thread.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 08:00:15 AM
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Hi guys,
Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences of the eighth chakra. Very beautiful.
On the subject of scenery, and what it means...
As I understand it, Yogani uses the word scenery to refer to anything that we come across on the road to awakening, but is not actually the destination. So he says, we can stop and enjoy the scenery for a while, but at some point, if we want to get where we are going, we have to get back in the car and drive.
The eighth chakra is not the goal of yoga. If it was, Yogani would have said so in the lessons. So it is part of the scenery that we come across on the journey. It gets confusing because the experience at the eighth chakra feels so sublime and sacred that it feels like it must be enlightenment itself. Personally, I would say that coming to the eighth chakra is an important milestone on the road to enlightenment.
But the road goes on, up the mountain, until we start to see that there is no road, and no mountain, and nobody to walk it, and everything is Spirit, manifesting through form. In religious terms you could say that everything is God, everywhere. So it is not ultimately about this chakra, or that chakra, or anything at all. In that sense it is all scenery. If you can name it, it is scenery. If you can't name it, I would say you're headed in the right direction. The journey beyond the eighth chakra is a very quiet one, where there isn't much to say.
Christi |
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Govinda
USA
176 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 12:25:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Dear Govinda,
You describe the paradox well, thank you.
What is "scenery"? To me, anything that retains the subject-object distinction is scenery. Perhaps my standards are very high, but nothing short of dissolving into pure subjectivity (That, Brahman) will do. If there is an "I" perceiving the eighth chakra, astral beings or phenomena, or even my beloved Ishta, what arises is, "Who is this I that sees/knows this?" in the uncompromising style of inquiry of Ramana Maharshi. Thus, even while having deeply mystical experiences, I tend to "step back" in that inquiry until that subject-object distinction dissolves..
Well said, my sister. Your standards are not too high, for where does this I-thought permanently reside? It doesn't have any permanency at all. Ergo, the ego-self never really existed, apart from Brahman's myriad dreamscapes. As Sri Papaji (H. W. L. Poonja) often stated, "It never happened".
And ultimately, I agree that it's all "scenery"... as scenery manifests of variegated frequencies and degrees of form and formlessness, as long as duality remains perceivable. This is the truth and it stops the mind dead in it's tracks. For when the realization that we are not individuals and out existence is a dream sequence... we arrive at that point of deep epiphany, where there is no self left to be. Only God exists... and so, we are That.
The only difference betwixt what Sri Ramana Maharshi or Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj said about all being Atman... and what Lord Buddha said quite clearly, that we are ultimately Anatma... is semantically bound and a game of circular logic.
When all membranes between this and that, self and other, subject and object vanish... there is a roaring silence so profound, nothing can be said of it, for there is no one to say anything about it. yet, it is clearly not just an emptiness and a total absence of isness... it is isness without any reference point. No image to reflect in the cosmic mirror.
Despite all of this, Ananda resides in it's own non-dual terms. Without a witness to quantify itself, it remains wholly unformed and insubstantial. So too, with a witness, peeking through the folds of duality at large, there is the journey of the Atman, emanating out of the Bindu, loosing the knowledge of what it is and eventually becoming "enlightened" to it's own true nature, once more. So, around and around we go...
quote:
I'd say I live from the heart space most of the time. But it is not always. When I step out of it and the ego comes in, there is physical pain and a strange sensation of falling. Thus, how I live in every moment is the true measure of progress - for me. In this context, all else is scenery - for me. If I'm being a selfish jerk or have issues about this or that, it hardly matters whether my chakras have collapsed or I'm meeting Jesus astrally. You know what I mean?
Yes, dearest kami, I surely do know what you mean. But when I am united... I know no thing nor hold any ideas of this or that. It's nice to see that many,many other folks over here are in tune with this, as well.
And we are all of us, here and now, gathering deep experiences, only to release them back into the Clear Light of the Void. All is Indivisible Brahman/God. I seem to understand this best when I understand nothing at all. This is why I find the "8th Chakra" so very intriguing (as an object to subjectively observe and seemy onw reflection, therein).
When I am definitely a formed, finite self, it is the higher equivalent of my material egoism. Yet, this too... is an illusion. Thus, naught but the Divine is reality, free of all dichotomy or polarity. WE ARE EACH AND ALL OF US... THAT.
Tat Tvam Asi
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 2:22:59 PM
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Just to clarify -
As Govinda said,
And ultimately, I agree that it's all "scenery"... as scenery manifests of variegated frequencies and degrees of form and formlessness, as long as duality remains perceivable.
So, yeah, technically "everything" is scenery. EVERYTHING. In the strict sense of nonduality.
When I said, above, that I wouldn't necessarily call the 8th chakra "scenery" I am using the term "scenery" in the functional sense with regard to our spiritual practices and phenomena that may occur in the process. I am making a distinction between passing, transitory experiences of light, sound, various siddhis, etc., versus awareness of our basic spiritual anatomy. Another example would be seeing ajna chakra. All kinds of cool "experiences" may occur through that chakra which I think could be called "scenery," or as I like to call it, "stuff," but the chakra itself is just part of our anatomy which we become aware of in the natural course of our spiritual practice.
And yes, our anatomy - our physical and spiritual bodies - are ultimately "stuff" too in the strict sense, but like Govinda said, so is everything other than God.
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Nov 05 2013 : 4:27:49 PM
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| Super beautiful discussion, really bhakti increasing. Great book by Yogani by the way, BHAKTI! |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Nov 06 2013 : 04:38:56 AM
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Yep. If I 'sit' inside the "cup" (of the Lotus), I can see the star like the stigma of a flower. If I move to it and look down - I can see my egg-shaped energy body but not the physical one. And bliss. And light.
Sey |
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The Eight Chakra
