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TheSeeker
Sweden
9 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 24 2013 : 03:24:40 AM
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Greeting, oh wise ones!
Is it possible to attain enlightenment without a guru?
what do you think? Please motivate your answers.
/TheSeeker
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2013 : 05:13:08 AM
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As Yogani says 'the Guru is in you'.  . Everything is Guru if you are listening carefully. Some people need an actual physical guide in the form of a person and some don't. If you think you need one then there is every reason why you should.
Enlightenment isn't attained, we are always enlightened, we simply refuse to believe it. Its the refusal to believe it that binds us to our thoughts and actions. There is no reason why we can't accept enlightenment is what we are right now except for the clinging to the belief that we control the illusion we create. |
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Wolfgang
Germany
470 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2013 : 06:10:11 AM
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Hello Seeker,
you got an interesting question !
My answer would be: Yes it is possible.
First of all: the guru can not make you enlightend without your
permission - you have to participate, without you he can not do it.
Then think about this: before the guru himself became a guru,
did he have another guru who helped him ?
Then what about the very very first guru, how did he become a guru ?
He must have attained enlightenment by himself ...
Now to our current situation: truth, knowledge, wisdom has been learned
by many souls. So we live in a universe where this is all already present.
We just need to tune in to these achievments. So we benefit of what others
have already achieved. But therefore we need to admit that we do need gurus,
in the sense that without them we would not have the mountain of truth,
knowledge and wisdom. So the answer to your question is a Yes and a No,
bit of a paradoxon
Humanity, you and I, are learning and participating in building this
mountain of knowledge and truth, and our enlightenment is expanding.
The guru is in us!
PS: when I speak of the guru (He) I also mean Her (She) 
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2013 : 06:12:11 AM
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quote:
Then think about this: before the guru himself became a guru,
did he have another guru who helped him ?
Then what about the very very first guru, how did he become a guru ?
He must have attained enlightenment by himself ...
yep...totally agree |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2013 : 08:10:48 AM
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You don't have to start off with a guru... they will pour into your inner being as you start opening. They will come, give you what you need and dissolve. Once the mind becomes silent and stops dismissing everything that is being revealed to us, we can settle into the blessings of many gurus... not necessarily externally, but inside in silence, we have everything we need including the gurus..
So why not just practice and work on inner silence and let the gurus come find you rather than go looking for one.
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Goodway
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2013 : 12:13:15 PM
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Yes. It is possible to gain a bunch of enlightenment without a guru. I think it is really dangerous to think of any person's enlightenment as final. I have seen and witnessed unenlightened mistakes by any guru or teacher that I've ever studied. There are forms of internal enlightenment, but many times gurus mistake internal enlightenment states with the totality of objective information about the universe. In fact this makes many gurus somewhat dysfunctional in the sense that they cannot understand the distinction between internal enlightenment states and a more objective type of ethical disposition towards the external world of facts.
Gurus are human, and humans err. I cannot see this fact ever changing. In my opinion, you cannot and should not ever try to escape the individuality that is a part of your nature. Humans are each unique and, I believe, they need to understand themselves, no matter how enlightened or unenlightened, as completely and totally unique beings.
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Edited by - Goodway on Feb 24 2013 12:48:49 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2013 : 7:17:23 PM
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| One of my gurus is my family's English bulldog named Snuggles. She resides within a high level of attainment--constantly radiating inner silence as she snores loudly on the living room floor. Also, the ecstasy is evident when her tongue hangs out of her mouth and she leaps so eagerly for the chew toys I throw for her to fetch. And when she retrieves them and so obediently drops them at my feet, we discover: stillness in action, the merging of bliss and ecstasy--a true paradox. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2013 : 10:09:50 PM
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| Yes, best to meditate and find your inner guru first. Then outer gurus may come and go if that's what you need. I don't know if you're joking Bodhi, but good gurus are all around us in all forms; animals, plants, ghosts, objects, you name it. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2013 : 10:29:40 PM
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I'm semi-joking, Etherfish. All humor has elements of truth in it, for me. My love and affection for our dog comes from the heart. 
Seriously, sometimes I look at her, and I say: "You're an incarnated bodhisattva, aren't you? You're the one keeping this family together! Who said that animals are lower on the evolutionary scale? That's bullsh**!"
Sincerity, humor, honesty, depth, insight. I am with you 100% that gurus come in all forms, as you mentioned. A while ago, I was fortunate to meet and feed bananas to a 500-pound, 80-year-old Galapagos tortoise. His presence was absolutely blissful--I kid you not. It was breathtaking. I was far more humbled by his radiance than by most humans I ever encounter. |
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vijikr
United Arab Emirates
413 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2013 : 10:26:19 AM
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And I would also bring to notice many people stick to a particular Guru come what may.I believe as shanti said outer guru will come and dissolve and we may need something else from another Guru..so keep going forward dont get stuck with one Guru and dont make the mistake of praying and doing puja to a guru for that isn't going to help you in any way its only by following the path shown by them and walking on the path which needs lot of practice is more important.It need not be only the outer Guru in physical form will help you infact inner Guru and gurus from other realms who have passed on and who exist in other realms will also help you.I have infact got those help from then through lucid dreams including shaktipath from them.
Eternal Peace to All
Love N Light
gayatri |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2013 : 9:44:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by TheSeeker
Greeting, oh wise ones!
Is it possible to attain enlightenment without a guru?
what do you think? Please motivate your answers.
/TheSeeker
Hi Seeker,
There is no "right" answer to this question. There are examples of great sages who attained E without a particular guru.. On the other hand, most masters come from very strong guru lineages. Thus, it is quite natural for this question to come up. Certainly has here..
However, the secret of that guru-disciple tradition lies in surrender. Complete and total surrender to the guru, with unquestioning faith. It would take time for a student to be able to surrender at this deep level. All sadhanas of guru worship, etc were put in place for one to become pliant, flexible, and "small" enough ego-wise.. So that eventually the ignorance of misidentification as the separate self would fall away through the guru's Grace.
If you are drawn to this and have the resources to find the appropriate guru, I'd say go for it. There is no "false" guru since he/she is always a reflection of where we are. But when that is not an option, working on opening ourselves up does this miraculous thing of sending one guru after another our way - each one at the perfect time, and in perfect harmony with our inner state and degree of surrender. As long as we don't hang on to what form our teacher should have, there is only Grace.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2013 : 03:13:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
... working on opening ourselves up does this miraculous thing of sending one guru after another our way - each one at the perfect time, and in perfect harmony with our inner state and degree of surrender. As long as we don't hang on to what form our teacher should have, there is only Grace.
Yes, very true, even when one lives on a tiny island in the middle of a vast ocean, a Tibetan Lama can just show up at your door, baggage and all... 
Sey |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2013 : 06:44:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
[quote]
Yes, very true, even when one lives on a tiny island in the middle of a vast ocean, a Tibetan Lama can just show up at your door, baggage and all...
Sey
More importantly, if a Tibetan Lama is what one is drawn towards, he will show up at the only door that matters - the door of the heart. And this particular door is not confined to time and space.
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2013 : 02:32:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
I'm semi-joking, Etherfish. All humor has elements of truth in it, for me. My love and affection for our dog comes from the heart.
Seriously, sometimes I look at her, and I say: "You're an incarnated bodhisattva, aren't you? You're the one keeping this family together! Who said that animals are lower on the evolutionary scale? That's bullsh**!"
Sincerity, humor, honesty, depth, insight. I am with you 100% that gurus come in all forms, as you mentioned. A while ago, I was fortunate to meet and feed bananas to a 500-pound, 80-year-old Galapagos tortoise. His presence was absolutely blissful--I kid you not. It was breathtaking. I was far more humbled by his radiance than by most humans I ever encounter.
I have a cat named Bodhisattva. When we were naming him as a kitten, my husband (after consulting with the cat) said, "He told me his name is Buddy." The cat seemed very wise and radiated bliss and serenity even as a kitten and enjoyed sitting with me in meditation. One day I was meditating in shavasana and he sat next to me. I said, "You're a bodhisattva, aren't you? He thought you said 'Buddy' but did you actually say 'Bodhi'?" Then I sang, "Bodhisattva, bodhisattva, won't you take me by the hand -" (by Steely Dan) and the cat looked me straight in the eye and placed his paw on my upturned palm!
I have no trouble believing that animals can be higher beings here to help and encourage us. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2013 : 02:42:33 AM
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| woooow i like this story about Bodhisattva the cat very much...thx for sharing dear Radharani |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2013 : 08:36:20 AM
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Hi Radharani,
I find it very hard to believe that about cats, but for dogs... It makes complete sense...
Best, Jeff
p.s. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Everyone have a great day. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2013 : 12:13:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Radharani,
I find it very hard to believe that about cats, but for dogs... It makes complete sense...
Best, Jeff
p.s. Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Everyone have a great day.
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ettskede_
15 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2013 : 05:40:27 AM
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Yes |
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JosephUK
United Kingdom
212 Posts |
Posted - Mar 25 2013 : 7:57:55 PM
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it is interesting the idea of attaining what people call enlightenment without a guru.
the buddha became enlightened sitting under the bodhi tree when he experienced the powerful mara of fear. He reached for the Earth with his hand and was blessed with enlightenment.
One can call oneself a meditator and yet have no devotion to a deity. But until one discovers there is far more above that grant siddhis enlightenment blessings and protection one can never know enlightenment.
instead one understands and achieves the blessing of inner silence, and ecstasy which is mechanistic or physiological.
when the student is ready the teacher shall call him, or her.
as i have said before it takes a great deal of wisdom to learn all the practices here and apply them the right amount at the right time and of course correctly.
it is interesting the mention of a dog as a boddhisattva. you mqay understand that in the western world we have many animals that have achieved a state of grace with humans; dogs, cats, horses its as if instead of us being served by them we instead serve them, walking,feeding, picking up their litter, they are blessed.
any object that can be seen as virtuous can be our teacher, for instance a flower. its beauty, how it was created, the science underlying its processes its interconnection with all of creation. That is a humbling thing!
once you are humbled you begin to understand that greater forces are in action, better to bow before them and seek a greater understanding than to fight and flounder against an opposing current.
thus you may not believe you have a guru but you have many and as you meditate upon this life you will understand that all the lifetimes ahead will lead you to your true guru and thus you shall open your eyes and see for the first time. |
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Sudeep
India
21 Posts |
Posted - Mar 26 2013 : 09:43:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JosephUK
But until one discovers there is far more above that grant siddhis enlightenment blessings and protection one can never know enlightenment.
instead one understands and achieves the blessing of inner silence, and ecstasy which is mechanistic or physiological.
This is so true... :)
Generally, when we get ecstasy and access astral realms, we think we are enlightened. :) |
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technoyogi
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2015 : 01:23:58 AM
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Great thread, I already forgot how I got here, having been lost in all the wisdom flowing throughout...
Along the lines of guru animals, I have a pet seagull.
He is not really my pet, he is as free as the day he was born.
I call him Jonathan, after my favorite book as a child, Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
Yet he comes daily many times to the balcony outside my window and blesses me with his calm beauty. He shows me patience some days by waiting up to an hour for me to get around to feeding him. Other days he yells loudly.
Today I sat in meditative posture and he came closer than ever to eat. After he ate we just shared a long moment together, just looking at each other. I felt us merge a bit.
Jonathan was my guru as a child as a fictional bird.
And he is now my guru as a 43 year adult in the gorgeous feathered white form I see each day.
My life is beyond charmed, everywhere I look my Beloved guru is there and has been in all things all the days of my life. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2015 : 04:50:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by technoyogi
Great thread, I already forgot how I got here, having been lost in all the wisdom flowing throughout...
Along the lines of guru animals, I have a pet seagull.
He is not really my pet, he is as free as the day he was born.
I call him Jonathan, after my favorite book as a child, Jonathan Livingston Seagull.
Yet he comes daily many times to the balcony outside my window and blesses me with his calm beauty. He shows me patience some days by waiting up to an hour for me to get around to feeding him. Other days he yells loudly.
Today I sat in meditative posture and he came closer than ever to eat. After he ate we just shared a long moment together, just looking at each other. I felt us merge a bit.
Jonathan was my guru as a child as a fictional bird.
And he is now my guru as a 43 year adult in the gorgeous feathered white form I see each day.
My life is beyond charmed, everywhere I look my Beloved guru is there and has been in all things all the days of my life.
Thank you for sharing Technoyogi
In the eyes of a bird you see the wisdom of all times.
Beautiful |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2015 : 06:28:53 AM
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Very nice thread!
This is my cat story:
Years ago, my wife and I were trying to have a child but it just did not happen. After some years we became very sad and hopeless about that.
Back then we had a wonderful cat that we always saw as a kind of messenger (no idea why, it was just our feeling).
One day the cat disappeared.
After many many months, one evening we were informed that we would have a child.
The very same evening the cat went back home.
3 years later, as it became clear that our child would survive, the cat decided that he could disappear forever.
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Edited by - Ecdyonurus on Mar 31 2015 06:54:13 AM |
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technoyogi
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2015 : 12:48:39 PM
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| Beautiful story Ecdyonurus! Well, I am sure you still missed the the cat. Yet that it knew was clear from its actions! |
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Enlightenment without a guru?
