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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 04:33:08 AM
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quote:
we seem to be a bunch who are really in the same place
so it seems
yes remebered Byron katie's the work too ....but i find Ramana's question "who am I?" a much faster shortcut |
Edited by - maheswari on Mar 28 2012 04:35:16 AM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 05:19:40 AM
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Yes emc, the same here.Seeing opened the way to relational self inquiry. I use ramana inquiry all the day and its... wow! really powerful and effective. It directly burns all the ilusion, stories and bring much openings in to the real self (relational self inquiry theres no doubt). Im glad that you that things are going so well for u also
I focus my atention in the present moment also.When a story or drama is coming i just have to remember where i am (here and now) and all the stories are seen as a dream in the mind. So unreal and non solid.And they dissapear.
I use gestalt therapy also to help the burning (emotions and beliefs, habits) and to see and release the shadows. Now the process is really powerful here also and is mixed with relational self inquiry (the sword). |
Edited by - miguel on Mar 28 2012 05:25:20 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 05:37:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
quote:
we seem to be a bunch who are really in the same place
so it seems
yes remebered Byron katie's the work too ....but i find Ramana's question "who am I?" a much faster shortcut
the answer to that question seems simple and everyone has reached the same conclusion at one time or another. Thing is, if you look in an empty cupboard, it's always empty as you might not be too surprised to discover.
I wondered about that for a long time because that is simplicity itself, he is free to offer the answer, no puzzle, he then says to do it and find out.
The answer that is first found is not an answer, it's asking a question that can only leave a blank space where an answer might be. That was always going to be the result. We use a similar question in NLP for goal setting " what won't you get if you don't do it? " the mind is sent off on a endless chase.
The question is more than its direct answer. It's the effect of the question. Problem is that it is the hardest nut to crack. You have to stay with the question, the answer will keep repeating. Ignore it, stay lightly with the thought don't hold tight, don't completely let go. He says many times to stay with the question, so does Mooji. I too thought it like Byron Katie's questions, a form of self grounding.
Try it, stay with the question a long time, just let it rest without resistance or effort. If the answer seems to come, let it dissolve in stillness and keep at it. Then something happens, it's not an answer as such. It's an understanding. The reason why we need to properly evaluate why someone would send us to look in an empty cupboard.
You must be thoroughly grounded in stillness and be properly grounded to do this, or maybe that's the only way you can be to do it because the mind struggles to stay on it.
I had not read about it anywhere, just a nagging question about why Ramana would insist on that being the route he took.
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Edited by - karl on Mar 28 2012 05:40:02 AM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 10:20:28 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
yes remebered Byron katie's the work too ....but i find Ramana's question "who am I?" a much faster shortcut
Faster shortcut to what?
This is what I am trying to allude to with the suggestion to begin looking at yourself and everything that arises in subjective reality after the realization of "no-self"..... the question "who am I" brings us to the place of "the ultimate perspective"... but often at the expense of forsaking what is actually happening in the body/mind (which is actually where we are and it is not separate from "the ultimate" at all). To me, living from the ultimate perspective is like bypassing the nitty gritty. To me, this is dangerous.
Looking at ourselves, our individual selves and our habits and tendencies, shines the light on how we tick as an individual manifestation of "the ultimate." To continue to live from "the ultimate perspective," from the perspective of "no-self," can result in escaping the reality that we actually *are* the body, that we *are* the mind, and that this is just as "real" as anything else. I have red flags going up whenever I (or anyone) says "I am not the body" or anything along these lines. Divorcing ourselves from one aspect of reality (whether it is "illusion" or not) in favor of another is not "It." Favoring "the ultimate" over "the subjective" may have us living in bliss all day long, but it only postpones "the work" that still needs to be done in the here and now... the work that needs to be done in the body/mind. This "work" is not fun, it is in fact often quite painful. And that is why living from the ultimate perspective is often so appealing and why it is such an easy spot to "land." Because it's a way to escape the reality that in order for "full realization," in order to know ALL about ourselves, we need to be here, in the body, looking at everything that is arising and inquiring into our motivations for action/non-action. This, at least in my experience, is how we come to know everything about ourselves... this is how we become "Self Realized."
Love!
Carson 
P.S. Please remember that everything I'm saying is just me speaking from my own experience and perspective and that it may or may not apply to anyone else.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 11:03:33 AM
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good point Carson....the thing is one negates the world/body/mind THEN one embraces the world/body/mind...it is one of those paradoxes...one is seemingly negating but not really negating unless one falls again into the trap of non relational enquiry
ultimately "one" embraces everything as Being this Unity,everything including body and mind
so the question who am I? is not a dry mechanism .. there should be a welcoming and embracing of whatever that appears in the body/mind as a manifestation of Consciouness....and Consciouness loves to manifest itself in so many aspects,thoughts etc...even good and bad become irrelevant criteria......
the question who am I is only to put things back into perspective,Francis Lucille explains it very well:
before awakening the body and mind have a place in the foreground...whereas trees birds etc are in the background
after awakening the body and mind join the tree,birds etc...into the background....
the body and mind are not negated....they are experienced and welcomed exactly like smelling a rose or hugging a tree
what has been rooted out is only the illusory and ignorant identification with body and mind
but the body and mind are really a blessing,why? because not only enjoying life is essential but also they are the pointers to the Presence of the Silent Witness
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 11:40:31 AM
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Yes, totally, it's not a dry question, but it's easy to make that assumption and head off in a none relational direction.
All of the orchestra has to play together to make music. It's the sum of the parts and not an individuals isolation from everything. It's funny to discover its only the false Ego that thinks it should play a different or greater tune than everything else. The ultra funny realisation "oh it's me that's buggering everything up" is priceless. If I was ever to get a tattoo that's what it would read. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 12:49:19 PM
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CarsonZi, the thoughts you put forth are coming to mirror my own, after having 'chased my own tail,' pondered, and reflected on my own terms for so many years, and even after having looked into some more formal methods of self-inquiry. All of this is still ongoing even if it changes as it moves along. You summed it up very well when you said:
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
The understanding that there is no real "I" does not end the fact that our body/mind complex still has work to do... still has things to work through.
I have seen this hinted at in posts by others as well, and have taken heed of what it could mean in practical terms further down the road. To put it in a different way, the 'know yourself' side is not one that can be skipped in favor of either 'seeing there is no "I,"' or the energetic side without receiving a 'recall' in some form or another. All three elements probably work together and relate to one another as they change or refine to maintain overall harmony so long as that is not actively prevented.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I think it's easy to "bypass" all that stuff with (what I see as cop-out) phrases
You're not alone in that observation. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 3:49:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
the body and mind are really a blessing,why? because not only enjoying life is essential but also they are the pointers to the Presence of the Silent Witness
For me, the body/mind is a blessing not because it points to the witness, but because it show us where we still have work left to do. The body/mind and it's reactions are pointers to where we are still blind. When there is a body/mind reaction there is something to inquire into, something we have not yet seen about ourselves and this is a blessing, an opportunity. Ignoring the body/mind, or regarding the body/mind as simply illusion strips us of the ability to use it as the tool it is.
Love!
Carson |
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mr_anderson
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 4:28:20 PM
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Balanced spiritual practice is about making an individual, physical entity, become a living expression of realization. It's really like a work of art, creating something of great beauty, out of the roughest raw materials.
For me, I love the nitty gritty. Staying in bliss the whole time feels intuitively wrong and quickly leads to burn out. The real satisfaction comes when the obstructions dissolve in your nervous system, and your day to day behavior gradually comes (at least a little) closer to being a living expression of the ultimate.
You find yourself more emotionally available in your relationships, loving and feeling connected with all beings that you encounter, overflowing with inspiration and energy, whilst bathed in silence.
Trying to remain in bliss is simply the ego attempting to assert itself and take control of a process which paradoxically requires more surrender than it does control. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 5:02:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
The body/mind and it's reactions are pointers to where we are still blind.
In above sentence, "it's" should be "its". "It's" actually translates as "It is", whereas "its" functions as the possessive pronoun that is intended above.
Why do I point out this small glitch in Carson's grammar? I don't know, it just seems to flow with the theme that work still needs to be done.
Being a proofreader/editor/writer by trade, my mind is trained to find errors and correct them based on a set of rules and stylistic expectations. [Just as I'm typing this, one of my co-workers just shouted: "Gosh, I can't spell for the life-of-me today!"...love the synchronicity].
Anyway, the body is a temple for the Holy Spirit/Kundalini, and the mind is a portal to the Infinite, so we should celebrate and utilize these imperfect expressions of divinity, despite their errors.
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 2:25:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
What's helping me enormously now is The Work by Byron Katie! It prevents the falling asleep again, cause the questions burn to the core at once, particularly no 1 and 4:
1. Is it true? - The answer is directly "no", cause thoughts are seen as invalid.
Hi EMC, I've recently discovered The Work after Yogani said in one of the lessons that it can be done before the Witness appears. I like questions from 3 to 5. However I don't get no.1; if someone shouts often, is it true? Well, yes. I'd say that probably it's not true that I am angry because of that, that it's a trigger to something inside and the problem is that I like silence or tranquility and I get frustrated. However the questions is about the fact, right? So yes, I'd still say that it's true that someone shouts often. Anyway, applying the questions don't seem to have changed the reactions that I have, at least permanently.
Love |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 2:38:42 PM
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This is the problem a lot of people find. They disguise their inner thoughts.
So, if someone is always shouting it's not a problem, what is a problem is your reaction. I don't mean your anger at their shouting, that's a given. Instead it's wanting something to be different.
Your reaction might be "they should not shout" or "it should be quiet" then ask "is that true?"
It's important to see that the anger has an underlying cause. It's often because you seek to change something. It's not about getting rid of anger. For instance you might say " but I shouldn't be angry" ....."is that really true?".
Hope that helps. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 5:09:52 PM
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Hi Will Power,
Yes, karl is pointing to the fact that the work sheet is a bit tricky formulated. It actually asks us to deliver a statement of the kind:
"I am angry at NN because he shouts often." Then the question "Is it true" becomes, as you say, a bit awkward. Byron Katie has failed to be 100% pedagogical! We must forgive her, and alter the question to a more questionable formulation, and the trick is to use "should" or "shouldn't" in it. That would result in karl's suggestion: "NN shouldn't shout so often". That's when it becomes really good to ask if it's true or not.
The work is based on the notion that thoughts that argue with What Is, is what always keeps us in suffering. So we want to have a sentence that is argumentative to be able to question it. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 5:19:57 PM
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| I also take issue with question 1 as Will Power and especially question 2 which raises 'red flags' for a number of reasons that can't be contained by explanations such as "they disguise their inner thoughts" or other similar notions. Though I will leave it at that and be content to have it appear a personal preference among methods of self-inquiry. I am only glad if some find it helpful. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 5:25:35 PM
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| Yes, and it's a progressive thing. One corner leads to the next. BK's work is a step that's all. Its enough to shake the tree of thoughts. |
Edited by - karl on Mar 30 2012 5:26:35 PM |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2012 : 05:29:29 AM
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| Thanks everyone. I will try using "should" and "shouldn't". |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2012 : 05:38:34 AM
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| also the "vow" of surrendering everything needs to be renewed everyday...in fact each time one has an " i feeling" or an "i thought" one should renounce them...each time one should "die" to personal separate entity thoughts and feelings |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2012 : 05:53:25 AM
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| About the Work, it works better with "should" and "shouldn't", I understand that I should accept what is, but I don't understand the turnarounds. I look forward to hearing someone shouting? I'd rather not to, since it takes away the silence and propagates anger. Any thoughts to go on with the procedure? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2012 : 06:08:26 AM
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You have to go through the process. It's not a flippant approach like slicing bread.
It may not be the shouting that is the issue, it might be that you don't think you should be getting angry...for instance.
How does it make you feel ( go inside and really get a handle on what thoughts are happening).
Until you know that part then it's pointless to do the turn around.
If you want PM me and we can go through it. I have worked with a few people and I can guide you pretty well. |
Edited by - karl on Mar 31 2012 06:21:18 AM |
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Will Power
Spain
415 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2012 : 06:39:46 AM
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| Thanks Karl. I want to PM you but I don't find the "Email poster" link in your posts when it normally is, and I don't find it in your profile either. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 31 2012 : 06:43:50 AM
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| I had it disabled. Sorted now. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2012 : 11:20:24 AM
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was translating into arabic lesson 333 and this sentence says it all:
quote:
It all must be released. We can’t own anything, not even a thought. The thoughts will be there, but we can release our ownership of them.
nada |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2012 : 11:44:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
was translating into arabic lesson 333 and this sentence says it all:
quote:
It all must be released. We can’t own anything, not even a thought. The thoughts will be there, but we can release our ownership of them.
nada
I read that and know that it is both correct and incorrect. You cannot let go of that which you don't own. Yet letting go of the attachment is exactly right, except there isn't any attachment at all and that's the illusion. We have to give up the illusion of attachment might be more correct? |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2012 : 11:52:34 AM
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hmmm yes...but currently need to dig more this mistaken identification with thoughts...digging all the dirt in every nook and corner....then will see about this illusionary identification ...need to walk then run
time for a sit!
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2012 : 12:34:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
hmmm yes...but currently need to dig more this mistaken identification with thoughts...digging all the dirt in every nook and corner....then will see about this illusionary identification...need to walk then run
time for a sit!
Yes, we gradually let go. Now it seems like a stream of railway carriages. Even the thought "I" is there, changing from moment to moment like light on the sea. Each carriage contains a thought and they run endlessly. That's a tree is in one, I'm relaxed is in another, all on the same track in identical carriages. |
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loosing everything
