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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 07:12:26 AM
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Hey Karl 
Like I said, I'm only speaking from where I am, and I'm happy you are speaking from where you are too!  But for me, I don't feel as though I own this body. I didn't "purchase" it... if I had I would have got a model that could still grow hair.  But just because there is no feeling of owning the body doesn't mean I don't feel a need to take care of it. As I said in another thread here just yesterday, the body/mind is the vehicle to "That" so it is imperitive that it is treated like the temple it is. But to me, the body feels as though it is on "loan."
Love!
Carson 
P.S> I don't see the body as illusary at all. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 08:28:27 AM
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Yeah, you did purchase it, you just can't remember. You were too tight to buy the hair longevity package that's all
It comes down to what is meant by owning, let's say it's more of a loan, responsibility is still on you. Mine is definitely not an illusion, it's just as real as anything else. Of course if you believe everything else is unreal, then it's just as unreal as that I don't make distinctions or, own the rights to reality. Stuff is fine just as and how it is without tinkering mentally with its current condition. If I can't be entrusted with this body then I certainly shouldn't be trusted with anything else
If I am a bubble of pure awareness then strangely it doesn't seem any different to the way I seem to look and feel. So I am cool with that too.
Cheese sandwich please. Sorry we only have ham. Oh ham will do fine.
Ps love where we are all at right now. A real chaotic melting pot of change. It's like a rainbow, challenging without ego getting in the way, just inching forward and understanding. |
Edited by - karl on Mar 30 2012 08:41:20 AM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 4:37:47 PM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
I've had a bit of trouble understanding exactly what you are saying with this post so bear with me as I stumble my way through a response.
Don't worry, it owned me too, it was for both of us, a door to instant knowing-seeing, a momentarily "love you both"-from-god =)
God is just a word, you can replace it with life or all or one. When I use god, it hints to the more personal, playful mode of that :)
The god-cheat is the double-cheat of the other post.
quote:
With three different types of "practices" I came to the same wall where it looks like you have to choose between your "mother/father/children/friends/loved ones/even more deeply -> body-mind" and "That".quote:
I'm sorry, but you'll have to restate this... I have no clue what you are saying here. Sorry. 
Ok let us get more concrete, there were even more than three occurances, but to make it "short"^^:
Whenever any well practiced practice came to that edge where it seems like your most valued and beloved ones start working against your practice, I stopped that practice. One was a pretty nice girl, the other reason was my own mother, the third was this body-mind here whining as getting closer and closer to a complete stop. And some more.
Ever read the Bhagavad Gita? Krishna (the pure bliss consciousness) tells Arjuna (the mind aka god-cheat) to kill his beloved family =P Arjuna brings forth endless reasons not to do this^^ Krishna explains detailedly why his reasons are cheaty, not really true.
My friend, beyond this I was many times witness of the god-play as god plays. He is the super big cheater and player at the same time. Don't be fooled, you will be tested deeper than deep when it comes to get to know the truth. Every good practice will lead you to this wall or edge of where it starts getting really nice and at the same time where you will be tested very trickily, with your beloved ones. My friend, your bliss is the best for all. You don't have to choose between the two, this is just a trick ;) God knows and wants the super best for you, but you will only get both, if he does not have to remain jelous of your beloved ones.
quote:
I have no idea where Life is going, no idea what it has in mind, but I can tell you with utter certainty that whatever happens, I will embrace it the best I can.
;)
http://www.allaboutyou.com/cm/allab...68043107.jpg
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 6:00:04 PM
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| Holy: I was initially unsure what you were referring to as well, and your perspective is much more clear to me now. I have come across that 'principle' before from another source, and was not aware it was also (initially) part of the Bhagavad Gita. No doubt you must have been left with no alternatives whatsoever and had to make real sacrifices in order to pursue your path. I can only hope with the greater flexibility built into AYP such barriers are less likely encountered, and give way with wisdom and patience. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2012 : 12:10:07 AM
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AumNaturel:
I'm sorry your thread changed its route a little bit ^^
To make it complete, it was 3 times alone with AYP ^^ AYP has its advantage and disadvantage of efficiency. The practices themselves do not stabilize and smooth themselves out enough and need to be stabilized with careful optimizations of your daily life. What works within AYP is perfect application of self-pacing, but it needs patience and trust and may not be too easy in every situation for everyone. If you know through direct experience that the practices work on many levels, then self-pacing can become more easy even if it gets to a level of near-zero-feedback, meaning you don't see much good out of it for long long times.
Other practice attemps here (most for many months, some even for 1-2 years) included overdone kriya yoga practice as instructed from www.kriyayoga.com , then an own compilation of practices mostly including extreme nadi sodhana, bhastrika + kumbhaka + mudras/bandhas, then directly remaining as the witness, remaining aware of the energy of the body,.. the deeper I look, the more attemps and combinations come out, so to sum it up: whenever the intensity grew too much, unimaginable friction started, may it be within the physical body, or outside of it.
The solution in all cases was optimizing "practice amounts, quality of food/water/air/sun, and not being cheated by the tricks and reasons to favor something else over the best anymore, no matter the price". If you persist for some time, god will smile and all will be fine...till the next even more dramatic event =P ... Without the motivating and encouraging words and grace of gurus, masters and in my case real-live meetings with some, the journey seems nearly undoable. The inspiration of seeing accomplished people in my opinion is priceless. Independant of your following that path/technique.
Wish you all the best,
Love |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2012 : 3:13:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
The relentless confounding of yoga and drugs, and the promotion of drugs as having a role in yoga (such as for alleviating symptoms) when they do not, is what I find questionable.
For those not mixing AYP with other practices or coming to it with spontaneous symptoms or other systems, the suggested baseline by itself makes it possible to cut back in cases of excessive purification. Gunny makes a good point in distinguishing this very clearly; my perspective is from yoga and AYP, and based on their reply appears to maintain this consistency, without artificially injecting external variables (legal substances) into methods and suggestions that come strictly from yoga.
My reply came from a yoga point of view in hopes that the original poster and other readers are clear where the advice comes from, be it that, other systems, or personal experience. The standard recommendation is to seek professional medical help. Further replies are encouraged at a topic I started here to avoid diverting attention from the topic at hand.
Hi Aum, this is in response to your post on entitled "Horrible Electromagnetic..."
I don't see the "relentless confounding of yoga and drugs." Where is it that you see this?
You even assert, in your first sentence, that drugs have no role in alleviating purificatory symptoms. That is reckless and wrong.
In fact, I have been taking several types of drugs over the past two months, precisely for purificatory symptoms. These drugs have enabled me to live a somewhat normal life during this time period, where otherwise I would have been in debilitating agony.
I can also attest that even a beer or two, as I mentioned in the other thread, will sometimes help in these cases. I should say, a beer or two can be the difference between 8 hours of sleepless torture at night... or a fine night's sleep.
I understand that your intention is to give novice-level advice. That is fine of course. But in the process I urge you not to aggressively dismiss other points of view in favor of a black vs. white dichotomy, especially considering that you admit that your experience level of both drugs and ecstatic conductivity is lacking.
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2012 : 5:08:14 PM
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Hi tonights the night,
I see it posted everywhere on this forum and in other places, and do not find it necessary to go through the topics in order to bring out the many instances where drugs are intertwined with yoga practices. I am open to evidence from reputable sources that promote the use of psychoactives as an indispensable element for a yoga sadhana, much in the same way casual comments pass on and perpetuate the belief that they are. I respect the lifestyle choice of responsible drug use, and based on any of my comments so far, I find it curious the word "aggressively dismiss" is used, especially when I inquire and seek to clarify what is yoga and what is something else (a lifestyle choice, a medical treatment, a belief system, etc.). My view on the topic should be fairly clear, and I see no problem sharing it much like I see no problem with other lifestyle choices being promoted. However, I do want to inquire into this conviction that comes up often enough, that somehow yogic methods have any direct relationship with drugs with respect to the aims of yoga (union). Both modes of action of yoga and drugs involve a nearly impossible set of variables to draw any simple conclusions. However, one thing I do find certain, is that the methods of yoga are effective and have been effective without the use of drugs. Moreover, there is evidence that drugs can actually hinder the effects of yoga by adding samskaras (obstructions in mind and body) and adverse physiological effects (ex. impaired motivation from an altered reward system) that may be at odds with maintaining a yoga practice.
It is great to hear you have found relief from your symptoms using alcohol in your particular case. For someone using a system like AYP, cutting back at the first sign of trouble in daily life, along with ongoing grounding, are what is recommended. Should such symptoms arise out of proportion to the practice they are doing (and therefore more likely as a result of innate instability), the first recommendation is to seek medical treatment and to re-consider practice as it is not a direct means to resolve such problems.
Again, as I have mentioned in the other topic in reply, I have never said or implied 'drugs have no role in alleviating purification symptoms' but I did make it clear that such methods are not part of yoga, in a reply to someone experiencing spontaneous symptoms not as a result of any yoga practice. I am entitled to my own qualified point of view, and attempting to clarify methods of yoga with other methods (drugs) is more akin to such a dichotomy when regarded as 'reckless and wrong'.
I appreciate your raising another great point often found at the heart of the matter: regarding lack of experience with drugs as a way of discrediting points of view contrary to drug use. The proposition 'you'll never know until you try' goes both ways: you'll never know unless you do yoga without any prior drug use. I raised this point with the idea that you'll never know what's an authentic experience unless you do yoga without drugs or without having used them in the past. Authentic is used with respect to an observer who compares the insight of a yogi to those in a drug-induced state. I'm not clear what my lack of ecstatic conductivity, or even absence of any overloading symptoms at that, has to do with drugs, yoga, the lessons, or anything talked about so far. Drugs can certainly mimic many such symptoms, which raises my original question, which is more authentic? Who has more credibility in the eyes of a beginner?
Thank you for the discussion so far. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2012 : 5:17:53 PM
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| Holy, it was very inspiring to read your journey as it is unfolding. All the best to you and your path as well. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2012 : 6:53:21 PM
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Hey Aum,
Thank you for your detailed response.
I infer that you have made the choice to see yoga as something static, as if it has a definition outside of "union". As if things definitely are or are not yoga.
In my mind, yoga is not something that can be clearly defined, other than to say it is the process and practice of discovering/becoming oneself.
Can intoxicating drugs be a part of yoga? Absolutely. So can physical exercise, diet, even mortification. Yes, they are lifestyle choices as well. I suppose the labels depend upon the perspective.
I am not an arbiter of yoga, but I have found out a lot over the years; daily unity, silence, liberation and ecstasy included. I feel as if I'm as qualified as anyone to comment on the matter. You too, will have your own opinions according to your own experience.
In my eyes, if I were the beginner, I would be inclined to trust judgments based on first-hand experience from those that have sowed and reaped, rather than judgments made through intellectual exercise.
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2012 : 9:25:37 PM
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Well, there are various methods each from a certain background, along with newer variants on those same methods, all of which can collectively be regarded as yoga practices. Other methods making use of drugs fall under a different category, perhaps Shamanism, or an eclectic approach. Just because, as a whole, they share a similar goal, and a common nervous system, does not mean the term Yoga should be reduced to a meaningless word any more than words themselves and the concepts they try to contain be done away with altogether.
A judgment based on someone's experience other than your own would still be an intellectual exercise. There is certainly a place for trust, however, trust and inquiry are not mutually exclusive. If that were true, we'd be living and propagating a myth, a deeper illusion than the one being sought to uncover by use of various methods, one of which certainly is Yoga.
Precision is necessary when trying to describe the means towards Self-realization (or any other ishta chosen), and so arbitrarily diluting one thing for another does no justice to the methods as they were intended by their author, be it 'the shoulders of Giants' or the specific path that has been uncovered here. Where in that do drugs fall? Should Yoga cater to include drugs, and is that really necessary? Questions for open discussion, as I don't have those answers beyond what's already proposed so far. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2012 : 10:05:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
Well, there are various methods each from a certain background, along with newer variants on those same methods, all of which can collectively be regarded as yoga practices. Other methods making use of drugs fall under a different category, perhaps Shamanism, or an eclectic approach. Just because, as a whole, they share a similar goal, and a common nervous system, does not mean the term Yoga should be reduced to a meaningless word any more than words themselves and the concepts they try to contain be done away with altogether.
A judgment based on someone's experience other than your own would still be an intellectual exercise. There is certainly a place for trust, however, trust and inquiry are not mutually exclusive. If that were true, we'd be living and propagating a myth, a deeper illusion than the one being sought to uncover by use of various methods, one of which certainly is Yoga.
Precision is necessary when trying to describe the means towards Self-realization (or any other ishta chosen), and so arbitrarily diluting one thing for another does no justice to the methods as they were intended by their author, be it 'the shoulders of Giants' or the specific path that has been uncovered here. Where in that do drugs fall? Should Yoga cater to include drugs, and is that really necessary? Questions for open discussion, as I don't have those answers beyond what's already proposed so far.
Hi Aum
I agree that words shouldn't be reduced to the point of being meaningless, and there certainly is an important place for precise terms with definite meanings.
The problem I have with assigning yoga with a definite meaning is this: Yoga is an ancient system of disparate approaches to union with self and god, and there is little or no agreement among contemporary groups on what constitutes yoga and what does not.
For example, the most common answer one would hear to the question, what is yoga?, is that it is asana practice. Is this any more or any less correct than the view of the common sadhu, who may smoke cannabis as part of his yoga practice?
I do not see an obvious answer to the question, what is yoga? My view is simply that yoga is the path to union, and that there are certain practices that have come from that path.
Does that path include intoxicating drugs? It does for some. I personally feel that certain intoxicating drugs, used with great care and in moderation, can add to spiritual experience. I can testify to this. They can also take away from it. I see great similarity between the use of props in asana practice, and the respectful use of some drugs in other practices.
I appreciate this excellent discussion on the matter, and I respect your opinions, which you have obviously formulated with great care.
I do think that, on the whole, you have a great point as it applies to the AYP system. Beginners should be given easily digestible instructions in order to avoid pitfulls and to progress more easily than those that lead the way. But it is not necessary to obfuscate the truth of the matter in order to do this.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2012 : 1:17:48 PM
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To me, yoga is much bigger then Patanjali's Yoga Sutras"... yoga is much bigger then AYP or any specific text, doctrine, or perspective... To me, yoga is Life, and saying that something is not "yogic" or cannot be used as a method for yoga/union is missing some of the bigger picture. Everything can be used/done with the intention of coming to a deeper understanding of oneself. Just my perspective, not looking for anyone to agree or disagree, just putting it out there.
As a side note, it can be mentioned that there are entire "yogic paths" that regularly utilize cannabis, alcohol and opiates (maybe more) as a way worshiping/communing/coming to a deeper knowing of the Divine. The Aghori's come to mind right off the bat, but I know there are others too.
From the wiki article on Aghori's;
"The Aghoris are not to be confused with the Shivnetras, who are also ardent devotees of Shiva but do not indulge in extreme ritual worship practices known to some extent as tamasic. (Rituals involving some or all of the following: meat eating, alcohol drinking, consumption of beverages and foods with opiates – hallucinogens and Cannabis products as key ingredients (non-Aghora sadhus have also been known to use Cannabis) – cannibalism, residing in cremation grounds, and taking part in tantric sexual rituals.)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori
Personally I find it much more helpful to myself and others when I try not to write anything off for any reason. In my experience, whenever I completely write something off as not helpful/useful Life has a funny way of putting me in situations that prove me wrong, often in dramatic and uncomfortable ways. More importantly, what I've noticed is that whenever I find that I am closed off to someone else's path and label it as "not valid," I will almost always (perhaps even *always* and I'm just too dense to see some of the lessons) find myself in situations that show me just how valid any path can be.
Love!
Carson
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2012 : 5:47:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
"Personally I find it much more helpful to myself and others when I try not to write anything off for any reason."
In much the same way, I find it worthwhile sometimes to put some assumptions to the test, as opposed to accepting them at face value just because a myth has been repeated by so many over and over. It is in this case the mixing of drugs with yoga practices, especially in a way that promotes their use as somehow being necessary to the path, while hardly mentioning the drawbacks of doing so. One such example can be seen from Ennio Nimis in Kriya Yoga: synthesis of a personal experience, p.154.
As I have said, yogic methods do not and have not required the use of drugs towards its sole purpose of union. There is no synthetic replacement for the practices no matter how much the relatively newly isolated compounds along with their proponents who try to pass them off for having a role repeat the same message unquestioningly. If such a system emerges, then it might as well be called something along the lines of -techno or -psychedelic and leave yoga for those who apply to uncover the innate qualities of their body and mind in the same way as did those who discovered them. This isn't against the application of drugs in yoga, but it is a call against those who jump at such a proposition with eyes wide shut.
quote:
Originally posted by Campbell_Psychedelicshamanism_pdf
In 1969 R. Gordon Wasson identified amanitas muscaria – or fly agaric – as the Soma of India’s g
Veda. According to Wendy Doniger (who assisted Wasson with the translation of Sanskrit texts, and
currently occupies the Mircea Eliade Chair of Religious Studies at the University of Chicago), both
the Upanishads and the techniques of yoga can be viewed as an attempt to recapture the vision
granted by the Soma plant that “underlies the whole of Indian religion and everything of a mystical
nature within that religion is pertinent to the identity of that plant” (cited by Huston Smith in
Cleansing the Doors of Perception, p. 49).
The question of Soma’s identity is not settled to everyone’s satisfaction (the argument is over which
entheogen Soma refers to, not whether it does [...] but there’s no question that the amanitas mushroom was in use in the Indus Valley at least 3,500 years ago, and that a number of psychoactive plants remain central to the Indian mythos [...]
Reputed scholars can entertain the ideas that some external substance may have had a role, and even go as far as raising such implications as found in that quote as a valid intellectual exercise based on available material. I would imagine, however, that practitioners who have been at it for a long time recognize such 'soma' as being intrinsic to the body, and its generation and cultivation to be entirely independent of external agents and substances. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2012 : 8:19:27 PM
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First off, thank you Carson for contributing your thoughts, you make great points and I wholeheartedly agree. In particular, I have found the same as you, that Life puts my judgments directly in my path.
Aum, in response to your latest post I would say that I don't believe that you addressed my previous post.
Furthermore, I simply do not see the evidence that people are trying to pass off a drug-centered shortcut to liberation in place of "traditional" yogic practices. Where is the evidence that this movement exists?
I think it's undeniable that intoxicating drugs have played a role in yoga for many. In addition, I recognize that it has been a part of my path, if a small part. If you feel it is superior to walk your path drug-free, that is your choice, but I would question what the term "drug-free" means.
Respectfully, I do not see the substance of your argument as anything other than: I know the one true and pure path of yoga, and it is the only legitimate one, all others are folly.
I'm interested in hearing your response, both to this post and my last.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 01:31:14 AM
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wow this is turning into a heated argument....cool down people..
as Yogani says in lesson 29:
quote:
It stands to reason that taking in substances that retard purification of the nervous system will not be helpful to the meditation process.
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 04:25:46 AM
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Lesson 307 is also good. http://www.aypsite.org/307.html
AumNaturel:
You have quite a fixation on the issue of drugs for somebody who has never tried them. You haven't really mentioned why.
If you are getting a lot of peer pressure from friends, well then just stick to your choice to remain drug-free if that's what feels right to you. Nobody here is doubting your right to your own choice. You don't need to justify it to anybody except yourself.
If on the other hand, this fixation is driven by an overwhelming curiosity pitted against the adamant and informed "right" choice of remaining drug-free (whatever your value system for "right" may be), then I advise just getting it over with and trying it out. That's my personal advice, not AYP, from one guy who read volumes about psychedelics before trying them to another. You will know very quickly whether it acts as a useless pollutant to your body, or the initial spark to ecstatic conductivity you may be hoping for. Once you experience it, the choice should be plain as day for you, and not such a big deal.
If you are putting all this out here as a cautionary topic for other forum readers, then I'd advise to just let go of the issue, and let other people decide for themselves. AYP takes a neutral stance on the use of drugs, leaving the choices up to each individual. And so does pretty much everybody on the forums. The average age on the forums is something like 40 years old, or maybe even higher. I don't know exactly. But I do know that we are nearly all adults here, who have been making our individual choices about drugs for many years already.
If you are doubtful of those who show up here posting of drug-related kundalini experiences, such experiences contain elements of both the drug experience, and the kundalini/ecstatic conductivity experience. For some people, drug use is an unmistakable step on that path towards "something more" that drives bhakti toward yoga. It is no mistake that the initial kundalini wake-up call happens under the influence in these cases.
If there's something else going on, please share what this discussion means to you personally. We can have a real discussion rather than this intellectual posturing battle. You've gotten a lot of responses here from people who have considerable first hand experience with drugs, and yoga, and their overlap. We're here to share. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 10:51:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
wow this is turning into a heated argument....cool down people..
as Yogani says in lesson 29:
quote:
It stands to reason that taking in substances that retard purification of the nervous system will not be helpful to the meditation process.
I didn't intend to be part of a heated argument, but if disagreements create friction, and friction creates heat, haha, then I guess it's heated 
Seriously though, this has been an interesting discussion but maybe as JDH says, it's time to get down to the brass tacks here. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 2:11:26 PM
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If you go back to the source of this thread, the opening post, AumNaturel seems to have written every thing already. It is a self-answered question-free posting of his view.
As the rest is obviously just another god-play, so here some more food for it =P
Caffeine and passive nicotine to give two examples do a lot of harm here in this body regarding the free flow of love and sensibility towards subtle bliss flows. Being in company with alcohol drinking people makes this body here as drunk as the others plus the clarity of intuition leaves for some time too. Just being on this earth has great effects physically, astrally, mentally and intuitionally on all levels to this body-mind complex.
So to have the cleanest yoga practice, one should better switch to another planet =P Yoga has many branches according to the creators of the word-root and all of them shall lead to it. What seems to be pure and clean and therefor true yoga practice is relative. For someone who can see the dust in the room, the room may look dirty. Someone who can see the subatomic structures will be delighted by the dance of particles independant of their grosser formation and will regard everything as pure.
Some more food for the word-play happening here :)..
.. there are some yogic traditions who practice yogic techniques day and night and use weed a long with it. It is recorded that many of this group live about 300 years in their physical body =P
Another one: within the nath lineage of yogis, starting from Adinath which is Shiva and continuing with Matsyendranath and Gorakhnath aka the known Babaji from the autobiography of a Yogi. Within this lineage there has been many siddhas who had great knowledge in herbs, roots, salts all brought together under the name of kaya kalpa science. They used to create a medicine called the same way which had the "great side-effect" of soruba samadhi when taken into the body. Soruba or swarupa samadhi is sahaja samadhi together with an immortal physical body. The state just remained temporarily, so many of those siddhas practiced kriya yoga along with the intake of kaya kalpa for hundreds and thousands of years till their body got used to be in swarupa samadhi without any kaya kalpa.
Many masters of that lineage still teach kriya yoga today but most of them are against the usage of any substances. One I'm aware of regularly takes mercury (Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath) as it strenghtens the body and increases its capacity for higher voltages of energy flow. This he uses to give mass Shaktipath and Shivapath e.g. Could it be done without? For sure, but the same way? Don't know.
What may be good for someone regarding yoga practice may not be good for someone else. It is also true in the case of this body-mind-complex here that some blotter paper opened the door to unceasing bhakti till to this moment and that was taken ~ 2006. Back then beyond time and space in godmode I was witness of the godplay preparing my homecoming without any substances for the coming years within time-space. The ultimate promise of love and that it is okay to "fall down" back to the cheat that is played.
So what to say? =) Was that god or bad, is it ok or not =P The play likes playing so here all is fine and okay =P
quote:
Holy, it was very inspiring to read your journey as it is unfolding. All the best to you and your path as well.
All the best to you and all here aswell my friend. No need to worry about mental positions, more important to do the good for you first.
Happy best,
love |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 3:03:12 PM
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quote:
. No need to worry about mental positions,
very well said...daily activities continue and they seem more real than this mental chitchat..time to throw my garbage out |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 3:51:49 PM
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Holy, Aum wrote a post in another thread.
He asked that people respond here on this thread, that is why the discussion continues. |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 4:12:55 PM
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Appreciate the replies so far, and good to see the varying points of view.
JDH: In the past I have found reading about them or talking to people who have used them very interesting. I've also read some books that touch on related subjects (Strassman, Semple, R. Moss, Castaneda, R. Monroe, J-M Yang, M. Chia..). Naturally, I have been wondering their role in uncovering human potential, yet the more I sought, the less I found them to have any role in it all. Quite the opposite, the drawbacks of each on yoga practice started to come up.
So, what's my deal? Can't say I have much of one ;) though it was a reply to a number of posts I have come across in the past that touched only on the up-side of the topic with the opposing point of view seemingly overlooked. It came up a few times and I was at a loss to share my view and put it up for discussion. It is a tough one too, and not one with simple answers coming either from history, science, or personal experience on the matter.
I am glad I have never experimented with psychedelics (in places where they were legal) or other psychoactive herbs in the past even though I may have had the opportunity. I can stand by this and know that any experience is my own, and not as a result of drug-induced alterations, but from skillful application of 'effort' over time. Yes, it is a bit of an idealization, though when I for example read a book from an author mentioning heavy drug use in the past, I will certainly take that into consideration when they talk about their experiences, whether something supernormal/paranormal [NDEs, UFOs, ESP, etc.] or those regarded as kundalini related. It is not a stereotype, but a variable that's worth considering to determine if it means anything, and if so, what part seemed helpful and harmful.
Tonight: There are judgments and then there are observations or hypotheses. I have said that I am open to the opposite point of view that technology (chemistry, plants, magnetic fields, binaural beats..) could at some point help yoga practice, at least in a way that one is certain not to miss out on the do-it-yourself. I took some time to search through here, though did not find the comments that got me to write that reply. So you are right, I unknowingly exaggerated how often it really comes up, and it is a good thing to know. It goes without saying these posts are excellent and have great ideas related to this topic:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=11239
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=11055
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=7439
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10815
Can I define drug free as simply not deliberately taking any drugs, especially not repeatedly, or for a given period of time? Medications, foods, spices, injuries, trauma, etc. are what they are. I am proposing that Yoga in contrast to (and not at odds with) Shamanism emerged after recognizing that the wisdom and insight made possible by the skillful use of natural substances, trance, dreaming, and unusual supernormal abilities were found to be also resident in the body alone and entirely accessible by 'yoga practices.' Shamanism is known to be pre-dating anything, while Yoga and its practices are generally more confined geographically and suggest something more isolated than that even if related, much like Bodhidharma pre-dates oriental martial arts even if alchemical traditions of ancient Chinese pre-date that while probably coinciding with Yoga's emergence. None of these are folly, but they are each a way of using the body and mind from a certain angle. Blending them makes it eclectic or a newly emerging practice borrowing the general idea 'yoga practice' but not melting away such general differentiations.
Can drugs add to spiritual experiences (scenery) or do they have a role in purification and opening? Hard to be sure.
Holy: god-play indeed :) |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 4:37:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AumNaturel
Tonight: There are judgments and then there are observations or hypotheses. I have said that I am open to the opposite point of view that technology (chemistry, plants, magnetic fields, binaural beats..) could at some point help yoga practice, at least in a way that one is certain not to miss out on the do-it-yourself. I took some time to search through here, though did not find the comments that got me to write that reply. So you are right, I unknowingly exaggerated how often it really comes up, and it is a good thing to know. It goes without saying these posts are excellent and have great ideas related to this topic:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=11239
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=11055
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=7439
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10815
Can I define drug free as simply not deliberately taking any drugs, especially not repeatedly, or for a given period of time? Medications, foods, spices, injuries, trauma, etc. are what they are. I am proposing that Yoga in contrast to (and not at odds with) Shamanism emerged after recognizing that the wisdom and insight made possible by the skillful use of natural substances, trance, dreaming, and unusual supernormal abilities were found to be also resident in the body alone and entirely accessible by 'yoga practices.' Shamanism is known to be pre-dating anything, while Yoga and its practices are generally more confined geographically and suggest something more isolated than that even if related, much like Bodhidharma pre-dates oriental martial arts even if alchemical traditions of ancient Chinese pre-date that while probably coinciding with Yoga's emergence. None of these are folly, but they are each a way of using the body and mind from a certain angle. Blending them makes it eclectic or a newly emerging practice borrowing the general idea 'yoga practice' but not melting away such general differentiations.
Can drugs add to spiritual experiences (scenery) or do they have a role in purification and opening? Hard to be sure.
Holy: god-play indeed :)
Hey Aum,
I hate to be such a hard ass, but in fact you did disregard (ie, were not open to) the opposite view in this post, which is what prompted me to reply to that post (in this thread) in the first place:
"The relentless confounding of yoga and drugs, and the promotion of drugs as having a role in yoga (such as for alleviating symptoms) when they do not..."
I know that you make a clear distinction between drugs, "medications, food, spices...", but I cannot. Is cannabis always a drug? Can it not be medication? There are many more examples, and I don't see how one can make that decision for anyone but themselves.
Here is something to think about, which ties in to your original post on this thread. Our bodies require all kinds of external inputs in order to function optimally or at all. Do we need calories for enlightenment? Fats, carbohydrates and salt? Protein, vitamins and heavy metals? Is it sometimes helpful on our path to seek out certain types of nutrients, specific molecules? Even such things as an antihistamine, or melatonin? How can this be any different when it is "drugs"?
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 5:07:17 PM
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Hi Tonight,
yes, that is my point of view in saying that drugs don't have a role in yoga, as it is yours to say they do. I imagine 'not being open to' as carrying on with one's view and showing no interest in putting one's viewpoint on the table for discussion.
You are right in saying it is hard to isolate yoga or drugs as being one precise thing or another. I imagine the properties of a lot of new plants were not known or available back then, and clearly knowledge of the body and of synthetic compounds are a very recent thing. What was available back then, using next to nothing at all, is what will also be available now, to achieve the same aims of yoga. The subtle principles driving the body and mind won't change if the only realy interface to it is the skillful application of intent, call it yi, shen, prana, mantra, or awareness. What is available is what is given from birth, and whatever influence there may be from past lives. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 5:33:00 PM
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Aum, I am not sure that I understand.
Regardless, we can now dispense with the nonsense that there is a wide-ranging conspiracy to instill the use of drugs in yoga practice, can we not? And if so, there is no reason to make diatribes against such?
I don't promote the use of drugs, in yoga practice or in any other way. I simply choose to withhold judgment about the nature of others yogic paths.
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2012 : 6:48:29 PM
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Namaste Aum and all
In my view, the decision to partake or abstain from drugs has nothing to do with Yoga. It is a lifestyle choice, and Yoga is more fundamental (and deeper) than lifestyle.
There's no question that drug use can give some a glimpse into an expanded state of consciousness. It can kick-start some onto a spiritual path, and I am one such person. My first experience with Ecstasy (MDMA) gave me a feeling of Unity that I hadn't felt since early childhood. For the first time in my adult life, I felt connected with all beings and with Life itself.
I was not on a spiritual path before that experience. I was a spiritual tourist, reading about all kinds of eastern philosophy and not practicing anything. I was depressed and suffering tremendously, and had no idea how to start an authentic spiritual practice. So I needed that kick in the ass to know what is possible.
Yoga came into my life soon after, and eventually AYP came along. Then the seeking ended and sadhana began.
If you're already on the path, you're not missing anything by abstaining from drugs. I commend you for going drug-free. You really don't need it in order to wake up.
Yoga is a living scripture written in the heart, body, and soul of the yogi. The yogi doesn't need anyone's agreement to validate their lifestyle choice in regard to drug use (or anything else for that matter).
May your sadhana inform your lifestyle choices, whatever they may be. This will differ for all, so trust your inner guru.
And I would invite you to tolerate the choice of others, however they may differ from your own. Life is a personal vision quest, a mystical journey for the one living it.
Much Love [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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