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Yoga, Science and Philosophy

Ecstatic conductivity, Authenticity, Psychoactives

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T O P I C R E V I E W
AumNaturel	Posted - Mar 20 2012 : 2:16:47 PM After reading some posts, noticing some casual comments, and comparing them to some observations of my own, I decided to make what started as a reply into a separate topic on the idea of yoga, ecstatic conductivity, authenticity, and psychoactive drugs. I find the general idea of drugs has already been well-covered in the lessons, so I'm just putting these thoughts out as my current perspective. It is in no way about drugs themselves and cultures and people who use them, all of whom I respect, or about things beyond the forum's scope like human rights. To be clear from the outset, I have no experience with ecstatic conductivity to date, or drugs. There probably is no clear-cut unfolding that constitutes an ideal rising of ecstatic conductivity (it happens when all conditions are favorable, even if the result may be premature), one conforming in a timely way to allow for sustained practice with minimal overloading, symptoms or scenery, while maximizing further openings and progress, speaking in terms of the energetic side of the path. Of course, the practices and advice recognize and aim to maximize that ideal-opportunity working in the real world with all its variation. I have never taken any psychoactive drugs and find my interest in them, as probes into self- understanding (to paraphrase my textbook on psychopharmacology), to be waning, while my affinity to psychedelics has turned into a conviction to avoid trying them for good, backed up by reasons I will try to briefly explain. While I can anticipate objections at my lack of experience, I find such a proposition (you can't speak as you lack the experience) a diversion which serves to feed the mythologizing and mysticism surrounding drug-induced experiences which exposes and betrays any credibility proponents for drug use may have had in that argument. That said, I nor anyone else do not lack or somehow fall short of the range of experiences drugs 'provide' compared to that coming from endogenous substances and the incredibly complex pathways responsible for sensations, perceptions, ABCs, etc., arising from non-drug induced states. In short, there is nothing extraneous or somehow supernatural in drug experiences simply because they require the foundation of the nervous system to exert any effect whatsoever (one that has been shown can be replicated by other means such as exercise, trance, dreaming, near death experiences), and on the contrary, can actually impede the very resources necessary for real experience. That can be seen by looking at the side-effects of any drug. Even psychedelics leave a memory imprint through the way the nervous system re-wires to accommodate for that experience, like any other, thanks to neuroplasticity, neurogenesis, and other alterations. These are in response to an abnormal condition and not necessarily one conducive to a spiritual path, and more importantly, not beyond that which the nervous system alone does not already have or is capable of developing towards. There is a lingering belief that is perpetuated unquestioningly to thwart the inherent potential of the nervous system, trying to undermine its natural abilities, as an way to promote psychoactive drug use. They have no direct role in the spiritual path. On the contrary, I believe beyond their initial ability to inspire and instill bhakti, they can undermine the very resources necessary. Also, I believe their 'initial ability' is not at all indispensable with what ordinary life experiences alone can provide. Having spoken to friends who have responsibly used many types and classes of drugs in the past, myself having read about drugs from different sources, having experienced some natural 'altered-states' with unusual dreams (sense of 'magnetic expanding and contracting' in an abstract state of impending chaos), induced lucid dreams, meditation (expanded/contracted space - loss of size proportions), and other common life experiences like jogging (runner's high, withdrawal/cravings to run, visual distortions and dizziness from overrunning), mood disruptions (depression, elation, psychological burnout), eustress, sleep deprivation etc., I still see the same story woven throughout: that believing in a lack is misguided, while trying to add more to what's already available is unnecessary. By staying away from drugs, I feel that my experiences are and will continue to be genuine, more specifically, directly representative of awareness working with the body and mind. I can only speculate based on very limited observations on what, if any, influence drugs and past drug use have on the rise of ecstatic conductivity in a timely way that facilitates further unfoldings.
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
JosephUK	Posted - Mar 26 2013 : 2:35:18 PM this has transformed into a topic i am beginning to understand. This form of what i would call identity crisis where the mind is gradually losing its sense of "I" has plagued me for the past 7 months at least. I have been meditating and searching for the I for that time whilst dissolving what i had previously called i with my devotion. Thus i was left with little direction and my sense of self was very weak. For me this came at a time of deep cleansing ande purification when my guru shook my hand and literally chopped my ego in half and then told me to practice mindfulness instead of becoming a monk. I was shot. But i've stopped that search now, i have found the kernel of my physical psycho spiritual avatar and it can say "I am" my mantra so i'm chuffed. As for drugs as to compared with the natural release of chemicals after meditation and pranayama, my buddhist nun friend has said that anyone who has taken hallucinogens can often have such wonderful experiences that once they come down the mind is unable to accept the lack and tightens and creates a lot of stubborn karma. i have heard of yogis in India smoking weed in order to practice strengthening the minds resistance to mind altering states. but this is only preparation for far stronger and long lasting states of high which thus replace easily the minds habit of being high on cannabis. On the other hand i have heard a few accounts of people using drugs who had a spontaneous awakening (of kundalini) however due to a lack of spiritual insight into what these drugs can do they have become mentally unwell. I think it is an ancient practice both to cultivate the physiology of an enlightened being and to imitate it. In the western world we can see the medical evidence and judge for ourselves. I think there is a quote from the bible saying something along the lines of don't look back or you shall turn to a grain of salt. For me in this context it means if your going to get high make sure you stay there, otherwise there will be negative consequences such as addiction. thats my penny worth. joe :) p.s. Yoganis lessons on world transformation and increased sensitivity are very inspiring
AumNaturel	Posted - Mar 22 2013 : 11:51:23 AM Robertnnd, what you are stating is the very evidence you seek: "I think it's undeniable that intoxicating medication have performed a part in yoga exercises for many" [emphases mine]. The original post proposes a critical look on the role of psychoactive drug use with respect to yoga practice, and more specifically whether such substances are necessary, beneficial, or detrimental. Your perspective suggests that they do, which implies they are either necessary or beneficial, and for 'many people.' 'Conventional yogic methods' I think we agree are harder to define, since based on the contributions in this topic so far, there are some that do or have at one point made use of substances. More importantly, those methods have, to my knowledge, not been passed down or integrated alongside yogic practice in general. Additional evidence more specifically to "trying to successfully pass off a drug-centered quick way to freedom in position of conventional yogic methods" is the very fact that perspectives are casually mentioned with the purpose of giving the impression that yoga and drugs are 'naturally' interrelated, which in my opinion can be damaging to the mainstream reputation of yoga practice, and to newcomers who are trying to establish any sort of foothold towards personal transformation. Thank you for the contributions so far.
Robertnnd	Posted - Mar 21 2013 : 01:46:26 AM Well I basically do not see, the proof that people are trying to successfully pass off a drug-centered quick way to freedom in position of conventional yogic methods. Where is the proof that this activity exists? I think it's undeniable that intoxicating medication have performed a part in yoga exercises for many. Moderator note: non yoga related link removed.
tonightsthenight	Posted - May 29 2012 : 1:16:56 PM Wow Carson... great way to put it! I feel the same way. Cannabis and psilocybin don't bring me pleasurable or meaningful experiences free of pain or hard work. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I have to work very hard to derive satisfaction from the use of these substances, or indeed to find any pleasure in them at all. And indeed, sometimes I am quite clearly called to use these plants, and it's never something that I would prefer to do. Interesting to hear that we have similar experience in this regard.
maheswari	Posted - May 29 2012 : 1:13:29 PM
CarsonZi	Posted - May 29 2012 : 12:55:11 PM It never ceases to amaze me how inspiration and clarity can often be stimulated by hard physical labor. I'm right now in the middle of deconstructing and reconstructing a deck in my backyard, and as I was shoveling some gravel in-between the joists I had an analogy with regards to this topic suddenly come to mind. I believe I have said this before, either in this topic or in another like it, but to me, the ability for psychedelic use to be helpful on one's path comes down to intention. The analogy that came to mind was from the Bible. In the Old Testament there is the story of Abraham who is commanded by God to kill his son Isaac. In most people's minds I believe that killing one's own son, for any reason, would not be something "beneficial" and especially not something "godly" or divinely inspired. But due to Abraham's bhakti for God he was willing to do whatever it took to deepen his relationship with Him, even being willing to kill his own offspring. Personally, I see psychedelic use in the same way. It is something that is not "fun" or desired, but if Life commands it, then I must obey the call. Luckily for me the call doesn't come often anymore (hasn't come in well over a year now) but everytime it has in the past, it has been helpful in one way or another, no matter how challenging the trip was. Does that mean this is how it works for anyone other than myself? No. But I think it is important to remain open minded as to what is required for another to come to know themselves in a deeper way. This lesson is continually driven home whenever I spend time with my extended family. My whole family chooses the "Christian" path as their way to connect to the Divine. Does the Christian path work for me? No. Does it work for them? They say it does. And even if it didn't, who am I to try and alter their path or tell them it is wrong? Anyway, just thought I would throw this out there. Love! Carson
Chaz	Posted - May 28 2012 : 10:26:12 PM A lot of what's been mentioned here has been on my mind recently so I'd thought I'd join the discussion and throw in my two sense. First, I agree with Carson in that anything can be a drug. As I progressed with meditation I started noticing how much certain foods can impact my perception and mood. Even practices can intoxicate me in some way. With drugs on the spiritual path, it is very much a case to case basis. It's not the intoxication that plays any role in yoga or spiritual progression, but it's how the individual integrates the experiences and insights that result from the change in consciousness. Ultimately, I believe we are all naturally driven to change and raise our consciousness. Isn't this what we do in meditation and yoga? We can go about this in many ways. The use of psychoactive substances are just one of these methods. I can't say I've had too much direct experience with many psychoactive drugs, but I've done a lot of research due to my own fascination with psychedelics and the possible benefits from these substances. For the past couple months I've had a growing urge to try these substances to see what I can learn from them. I feel there is a lot that psychedelics have to show and teach me on my path and I intend to experiment with an open mind. I'm a heavy marijuana user, and I've used MDMA several times in the past. Both substances have produced deeply meditative and spiritual states while under their influence. I've only had one psychedelic experience while on mushrooms and for me it wasn't the breakthrough many have had and I admittedly sought, but it was significantly insightful and I learned a lot about myself and things around me. All of the mentioned substances have one thing in common on my spiritual path in that they opened me up more to experience myself. Such substances have the ability to reveal to you WHAT IS ALREADY THERE. The mistake is thinking drugs will significantly change anything for you, so to speak. Of course they may alter chemical balances in the brain, and alter our physical and mental perception, but when our high is over we are still the same, for better or worse. I don't think any substance is responsible for spiritual experience or progression, but rather how we deal with and integrate the change of consciousness and resulting impressions. It was Marijuana that led me to my direct spiritual path, and ever since it seemed to be my guide. My first time smoking I was only 14, and I was quite a worry wart in my awkward teen phase. My first few times getting high showed me how relaxed, happy, and carefree I could be. I developed the habit of trying to change from being the high-strung, worrisome person I was when I wasn't high by getting high as often as I could. Not much later after that I realized the weed wasn't changing a damn thing about me, in fact my anxiety was getting worse (I was still inexperienced and wasn't aware of marijuana anxiety either). I literally thought something was really wrong with me, I wanted so bad to be like all my friends who got high and only laughed, never worried about a damn thing like how I felt those first few times high. In my search for a fix I re-stumbled upon meditation and that's when the path hit off. Marijuana has played a role on my spiritual path ever since, and I can't say it has been in any way detrimental, and I will not say it has been a shortcut of any sort, but it has been a VERY revealing and insightful substance on my path that has taught me many things. MDMA hasn't played as significant a role as Marijuana has on my spiritual path, mainly because I have only done it on several occasions and don't find it as appealing anymore, specifically because of the physical side effects. But, I can't deny it has opened my heart up to the moment and shown me the magnitude of love I truly have for myself and the world. None of that was ever the result of MDMA, but rather what being high on MDMA revealed to me. I came to learn that ultimately all insights during any high, all mental states and changes in consciousness, though facilitated by the substance, were still a product of the mind, and could be experienced by the mind itself. Ultimately the change will come from within no matter what. This is where my respect lies in certain substances; their ability to lift certain mind barriers so you are revealed to a greater part of yourself that was always there but just hidden in your normal everyday consciousness. This is the only possible shortcut drugs can provide. Again, this is essentially what happens when we change our consciousness through any means, including yoga and meditation. Drugs just happen to be a more aggressive and far less permanent method. The barriers go back up soon enough and the best we can do is simply integrate the experience on our path. I don't think that just because a spiritual experience is drug induced that that should take away any authenticity of the experience or further experiences on the spiritual path. Being drug-free in my own opinion does not mean any spiritual phenomena experienced in comparison to one who has tried many drugs is any more valid. The experiences are very real to the ones experiencing them, and for me that would be all that matters so who am I to call them fraud. Isn't it strange that some of the most powerful and potent mind-altering plants and herbs grow in VERY close proximity to some of the most spiritual people on Earth? Did those plants make the surrounding people so spiritual? Or was it the people's high spiritual energy that attracted those plants to them? One interesting thing about these people is most of them regarded the psychoactive plants and herbs they used in spiritual rituals as teachers or guardians, with their own spirit and wisdom to share. Perhaps nature herself was the original guru in this way. Much love everyone.
AumNaturel	Posted - May 28 2012 : 8:58:24 PM Tonight: agreed. From the discussions so far, and looking back through the posts, it seems there really wasn't one as I had imagined. Should there be, this topic is open for discussion. I found it worthwhile, and hope others did too. Cosmic: that was better said and summarized than I ever could.
cosmic	Posted - May 28 2012 : 6:48:29 PM Namaste Aum and all In my view, the decision to partake or abstain from drugs has nothing to do with Yoga. It is a lifestyle choice, and Yoga is more fundamental (and deeper) than lifestyle. There's no question that drug use can give some a glimpse into an expanded state of consciousness. It can kick-start some onto a spiritual path, and I am one such person. My first experience with Ecstasy (MDMA) gave me a feeling of Unity that I hadn't felt since early childhood. For the first time in my adult life, I felt connected with all beings and with Life itself. I was not on a spiritual path before that experience. I was a spiritual tourist, reading about all kinds of eastern philosophy and not practicing anything. I was depressed and suffering tremendously, and had no idea how to start an authentic spiritual practice. So I needed that kick in the ass to know what is possible. Yoga came into my life soon after, and eventually AYP came along. Then the seeking ended and sadhana began. If you're already on the path, you're not missing anything by abstaining from drugs. I commend you for going drug-free. You really don't need it in order to wake up. Yoga is a living scripture written in the heart, body, and soul of the yogi. The yogi doesn't need anyone's agreement to validate their lifestyle choice in regard to drug use (or anything else for that matter). May your sadhana inform your lifestyle choices, whatever they may be. This will differ for all, so trust your inner guru. And I would invite you to tolerate the choice of others, however they may differ from your own. Life is a personal vision quest, a mystical journey for the one living it. Much Love
tonightsthenight	Posted - May 28 2012 : 5:33:00 PM Aum, I am not sure that I understand. Regardless, we can now dispense with the nonsense that there is a wide-ranging conspiracy to instill the use of drugs in yoga practice, can we not? And if so, there is no reason to make diatribes against such? I don't promote the use of drugs, in yoga practice or in any other way. I simply choose to withhold judgment about the nature of others yogic paths.
AumNaturel	Posted - May 28 2012 : 5:07:17 PM Hi Tonight, yes, that is my point of view in saying that drugs don't have a role in yoga, as it is yours to say they do. I imagine 'not being open to' as carrying on with one's view and showing no interest in putting one's viewpoint on the table for discussion. You are right in saying it is hard to isolate yoga or drugs as being one precise thing or another. I imagine the properties of a lot of new plants were not known or available back then, and clearly knowledge of the body and of synthetic compounds are a very recent thing. What was available back then, using next to nothing at all, is what will also be available now, to achieve the same aims of yoga. The subtle principles driving the body and mind won't change if the only realy interface to it is the skillful application of intent, call it yi, shen, prana, mantra, or awareness. What is available is what is given from birth, and whatever influence there may be from past lives.
tonightsthenight	Posted - May 28 2012 : 4:37:00 PM quote: Originally posted by AumNaturel Tonight: There are judgments and then there are observations or hypotheses. I have said that I am open to the opposite point of view that technology (chemistry, plants, magnetic fields, binaural beats..) could at some point help yoga practice, at least in a way that one is certain not to miss out on the do-it-yourself. I took some time to search through here, though did not find the comments that got me to write that reply. So you are right, I unknowingly exaggerated how often it really comes up, and it is a good thing to know. It goes without saying these posts are excellent and have great ideas related to this topic: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=11239 http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=11055 http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=7439 http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10815 Can I define drug free as simply not deliberately taking any drugs, especially not repeatedly, or for a given period of time? Medications, foods, spices, injuries, trauma, etc. are what they are. I am proposing that Yoga in contrast to (and not at odds with) Shamanism emerged after recognizing that the wisdom and insight made possible by the skillful use of natural substances, trance, dreaming, and unusual supernormal abilities were found to be also resident in the body alone and entirely accessible by 'yoga practices.' Shamanism is known to be pre-dating anything, while Yoga and its practices are generally more confined geographically and suggest something more isolated than that even if related, much like Bodhidharma pre-dates oriental martial arts even if alchemical traditions of ancient Chinese pre-date that while probably coinciding with Yoga's emergence. None of these are folly, but they are each a way of using the body and mind from a certain angle. Blending them makes it eclectic or a newly emerging practice borrowing the general idea 'yoga practice' but not melting away such general differentiations. Can drugs add to spiritual experiences (scenery) or do they have a role in purification and opening? Hard to be sure. Holy: god-play indeed :) Hey Aum, I hate to be such a hard ass, but in fact you did disregard (ie, were not open to) the opposite view in this post, which is what prompted me to reply to that post (in this thread) in the first place: "The relentless confounding of yoga and drugs, and the promotion of drugs as having a role in yoga (such as for alleviating symptoms) when they do not..." I know that you make a clear distinction between drugs, "medications, food, spices...", but I cannot. Is cannabis always a drug? Can it not be medication? There are many more examples, and I don't see how one can make that decision for anyone but themselves. Here is something to think about, which ties in to your original post on this thread. Our bodies require all kinds of external inputs in order to function optimally or at all. Do we need calories for enlightenment? Fats, carbohydrates and salt? Protein, vitamins and heavy metals? Is it sometimes helpful on our path to seek out certain types of nutrients, specific molecules? Even such things as an antihistamine, or melatonin? How can this be any different when it is "drugs"?
AumNaturel	Posted - May 28 2012 : 4:12:55 PM Appreciate the replies so far, and good to see the varying points of view. JDH: In the past I have found reading about them or talking to people who have used them very interesting. I've also read some books that touch on related subjects (Strassman, Semple, R. Moss, Castaneda, R. Monroe, J-M Yang, M. Chia..). Naturally, I have been wondering their role in uncovering human potential, yet the more I sought, the less I found them to have any role in it all. Quite the opposite, the drawbacks of each on yoga practice started to come up. So, what's my deal? Can't say I have much of one ;) though it was a reply to a number of posts I have come across in the past that touched only on the up-side of the topic with the opposing point of view seemingly overlooked. It came up a few times and I was at a loss to share my view and put it up for discussion. It is a tough one too, and not one with simple answers coming either from history, science, or personal experience on the matter. I am glad I have never experimented with psychedelics (in places where they were legal) or other psychoactive herbs in the past even though I may have had the opportunity. I can stand by this and know that any experience is my own, and not as a result of drug-induced alterations, but from skillful application of 'effort' over time. Yes, it is a bit of an idealization, though when I for example read a book from an author mentioning heavy drug use in the past, I will certainly take that into consideration when they talk about their experiences, whether something supernormal/paranormal [NDEs, UFOs, ESP, etc.] or those regarded as kundalini related. It is not a stereotype, but a variable that's worth considering to determine if it means anything, and if so, what part seemed helpful and harmful. Tonight: There are judgments and then there are observations or hypotheses. I have said that I am open to the opposite point of view that technology (chemistry, plants, magnetic fields, binaural beats..) could at some point help yoga practice, at least in a way that one is certain not to miss out on the do-it-yourself. I took some time to search through here, though did not find the comments that got me to write that reply. So you are right, I unknowingly exaggerated how often it really comes up, and it is a good thing to know. It goes without saying these posts are excellent and have great ideas related to this topic: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=11239 http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=11055 http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=7439 http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=10815 Can I define drug free as simply not deliberately taking any drugs, especially not repeatedly, or for a given period of time? Medications, foods, spices, injuries, trauma, etc. are what they are. I am proposing that Yoga in contrast to (and not at odds with) Shamanism emerged after recognizing that the wisdom and insight made possible by the skillful use of natural substances, trance, dreaming, and unusual supernormal abilities were found to be also resident in the body alone and entirely accessible by 'yoga practices.' Shamanism is known to be pre-dating anything, while Yoga and its practices are generally more confined geographically and suggest something more isolated than that even if related, much like Bodhidharma pre-dates oriental martial arts even if alchemical traditions of ancient Chinese pre-date that while probably coinciding with Yoga's emergence. None of these are folly, but they are each a way of using the body and mind from a certain angle. Blending them makes it eclectic or a newly emerging practice borrowing the general idea 'yoga practice' but not melting away such general differentiations. Can drugs add to spiritual experiences (scenery) or do they have a role in purification and opening? Hard to be sure. Holy: god-play indeed :)
tonightsthenight	Posted - May 28 2012 : 3:51:49 PM Holy, Aum wrote a post in another thread. He asked that people respond here on this thread, that is why the discussion continues.
maheswari	Posted - May 28 2012 : 3:03:12 PM quote: . No need to worry about mental positions, very well said...daily activities continue and they seem more real than this mental chitchat..time to throw my garbage out
Holy	Posted - May 28 2012 : 2:11:26 PM If you go back to the source of this thread, the opening post, AumNaturel seems to have written every thing already. It is a self-answered question-free posting of his view. As the rest is obviously just another god-play, so here some more food for it =P Caffeine and passive nicotine to give two examples do a lot of harm here in this body regarding the free flow of love and sensibility towards subtle bliss flows. Being in company with alcohol drinking people makes this body here as drunk as the others plus the clarity of intuition leaves for some time too. Just being on this earth has great effects physically, astrally, mentally and intuitionally on all levels to this body-mind complex. So to have the cleanest yoga practice, one should better switch to another planet =P Yoga has many branches according to the creators of the word-root and all of them shall lead to it. What seems to be pure and clean and therefor true yoga practice is relative. For someone who can see the dust in the room, the room may look dirty. Someone who can see the subatomic structures will be delighted by the dance of particles independant of their grosser formation and will regard everything as pure. Some more food for the word-play happening here :).. .. there are some yogic traditions who practice yogic techniques day and night and use weed a long with it. It is recorded that many of this group live about 300 years in their physical body =P Another one: within the nath lineage of yogis, starting from Adinath which is Shiva and continuing with Matsyendranath and Gorakhnath aka the known Babaji from the autobiography of a Yogi. Within this lineage there has been many siddhas who had great knowledge in herbs, roots, salts all brought together under the name of kaya kalpa science. They used to create a medicine called the same way which had the "great side-effect" of soruba samadhi when taken into the body. Soruba or swarupa samadhi is sahaja samadhi together with an immortal physical body. The state just remained temporarily, so many of those siddhas practiced kriya yoga along with the intake of kaya kalpa for hundreds and thousands of years till their body got used to be in swarupa samadhi without any kaya kalpa. Many masters of that lineage still teach kriya yoga today but most of them are against the usage of any substances. One I'm aware of regularly takes mercury (Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath) as it strenghtens the body and increases its capacity for higher voltages of energy flow. This he uses to give mass Shaktipath and Shivapath e.g. Could it be done without? For sure, but the same way? Don't know. What may be good for someone regarding yoga practice may not be good for someone else. It is also true in the case of this body-mind-complex here that some blotter paper opened the door to unceasing bhakti till to this moment and that was taken ~ 2006. Back then beyond time and space in godmode I was witness of the godplay preparing my homecoming without any substances for the coming years within time-space. The ultimate promise of love and that it is okay to "fall down" back to the cheat that is played. So what to say? =) Was that god or bad, is it ok or not =P The play likes playing so here all is fine and okay =P quote: Holy, it was very inspiring to read your journey as it is unfolding. All the best to you and your path as well. All the best to you and all here aswell my friend. No need to worry about mental positions, more important to do the good for you first. Happy best, love
tonightsthenight	Posted - May 28 2012 : 10:51:31 AM quote: Originally posted by maheswari wow this is turning into a heated argument....cool down people.. as Yogani says in lesson 29: quote: It stands to reason that taking in substances that retard purification of the nervous system will not be helpful to the meditation process. I didn't intend to be part of a heated argument, but if disagreements create friction, and friction creates heat, haha, then I guess it's heated Seriously though, this has been an interesting discussion but maybe as JDH says, it's time to get down to the brass tacks here.
JDH	Posted - May 28 2012 : 04:25:46 AM Lesson 307 is also good. http://www.aypsite.org/307.html AumNaturel: You have quite a fixation on the issue of drugs for somebody who has never tried them. You haven't really mentioned why. If you are getting a lot of peer pressure from friends, well then just stick to your choice to remain drug-free if that's what feels right to you. Nobody here is doubting your right to your own choice. You don't need to justify it to anybody except yourself. If on the other hand, this fixation is driven by an overwhelming curiosity pitted against the adamant and informed "right" choice of remaining drug-free (whatever your value system for "right" may be), then I advise just getting it over with and trying it out. That's my personal advice, not AYP, from one guy who read volumes about psychedelics before trying them to another. You will know very quickly whether it acts as a useless pollutant to your body, or the initial spark to ecstatic conductivity you may be hoping for. Once you experience it, the choice should be plain as day for you, and not such a big deal. If you are putting all this out here as a cautionary topic for other forum readers, then I'd advise to just let go of the issue, and let other people decide for themselves. AYP takes a neutral stance on the use of drugs, leaving the choices up to each individual. And so does pretty much everybody on the forums. The average age on the forums is something like 40 years old, or maybe even higher. I don't know exactly. But I do know that we are nearly all adults here, who have been making our individual choices about drugs for many years already. If you are doubtful of those who show up here posting of drug-related kundalini experiences, such experiences contain elements of both the drug experience, and the kundalini/ecstatic conductivity experience. For some people, drug use is an unmistakable step on that path towards "something more" that drives bhakti toward yoga. It is no mistake that the initial kundalini wake-up call happens under the influence in these cases. If there's something else going on, please share what this discussion means to you personally. We can have a real discussion rather than this intellectual posturing battle. You've gotten a lot of responses here from people who have considerable first hand experience with drugs, and yoga, and their overlap. We're here to share.
maheswari	Posted - May 28 2012 : 01:31:14 AM wow this is turning into a heated argument....cool down people.. as Yogani says in lesson 29: quote: It stands to reason that taking in substances that retard purification of the nervous system will not be helpful to the meditation process.
tonightsthenight	Posted - May 27 2012 : 8:19:27 PM First off, thank you Carson for contributing your thoughts, you make great points and I wholeheartedly agree. In particular, I have found the same as you, that Life puts my judgments directly in my path. Aum, in response to your latest post I would say that I don't believe that you addressed my previous post. Furthermore, I simply do not see the evidence that people are trying to pass off a drug-centered shortcut to liberation in place of "traditional" yogic practices. Where is the evidence that this movement exists? I think it's undeniable that intoxicating drugs have played a role in yoga for many. In addition, I recognize that it has been a part of my path, if a small part. If you feel it is superior to walk your path drug-free, that is your choice, but I would question what the term "drug-free" means. Respectfully, I do not see the substance of your argument as anything other than: I know the one true and pure path of yoga, and it is the only legitimate one, all others are folly. I'm interested in hearing your response, both to this post and my last.
AumNaturel	Posted - May 27 2012 : 5:47:36 PM quote: Originally posted by CarsonZi "Personally I find it much more helpful to myself and others when I try not to write anything off for any reason." In much the same way, I find it worthwhile sometimes to put some assumptions to the test, as opposed to accepting them at face value just because a myth has been repeated by so many over and over. It is in this case the mixing of drugs with yoga practices, especially in a way that promotes their use as somehow being necessary to the path, while hardly mentioning the drawbacks of doing so. One such example can be seen from Ennio Nimis in Kriya Yoga: synthesis of a personal experience, p.154. As I have said, yogic methods do not and have not required the use of drugs towards its sole purpose of union. There is no synthetic replacement for the practices no matter how much the relatively newly isolated compounds along with their proponents who try to pass them off for having a role repeat the same message unquestioningly. If such a system emerges, then it might as well be called something along the lines of -techno or -psychedelic and leave yoga for those who apply to uncover the innate qualities of their body and mind in the same way as did those who discovered them. This isn't against the application of drugs in yoga, but it is a call against those who jump at such a proposition with eyes wide shut. quote: Originally posted by Campbell_Psychedelicshamanism_pdf In 1969 R. Gordon Wasson identified amanitas muscaria � or fly agaric � as the Soma of India�s g Veda. According to Wendy Doniger (who assisted Wasson with the translation of Sanskrit texts, and currently occupies the Mircea Eliade Chair of Religious Studies at the University of Chicago), both the Upanishads and the techniques of yoga can be viewed as an attempt to recapture the vision granted by the Soma plant that �underlies the whole of Indian religion and everything of a mystical nature within that religion is pertinent to the identity of that plant� (cited by Huston Smith in Cleansing the Doors of Perception, p. 49). The question of Soma�s identity is not settled to everyone�s satisfaction (the argument is over which entheogen Soma refers to, not whether it does [...] but there�s no question that the amanitas mushroom was in use in the Indus Valley at least 3,500 years ago, and that a number of psychoactive plants remain central to the Indian mythos [...] Reputed scholars can entertain the ideas that some external substance may have had a role, and even go as far as raising such implications as found in that quote as a valid intellectual exercise based on available material. I would imagine, however, that practitioners who have been at it for a long time recognize such 'soma' as being intrinsic to the body, and its generation and cultivation to be entirely independent of external agents and substances.
CarsonZi	Posted - May 27 2012 : 1:17:48 PM To me, yoga is much bigger then Patanjali's Yoga Sutras"... yoga is much bigger then AYP or any specific text, doctrine, or perspective... To me, yoga is Life, and saying that something is not "yogic" or cannot be used as a method for yoga/union is missing some of the bigger picture. Everything can be used/done with the intention of coming to a deeper understanding of oneself. Just my perspective, not looking for anyone to agree or disagree, just putting it out there. As a side note, it can be mentioned that there are entire "yogic paths" that regularly utilize cannabis, alcohol and opiates (maybe more) as a way worshiping/communing/coming to a deeper knowing of the Divine. The Aghori's come to mind right off the bat, but I know there are others too. From the wiki article on Aghori's; "The Aghoris are not to be confused with the Shivnetras, who are also ardent devotees of Shiva but do not indulge in extreme ritual worship practices known to some extent as tamasic. (Rituals involving some or all of the following: meat eating, alcohol drinking, consumption of beverages and foods with opiates � hallucinogens and Cannabis products as key ingredients (non-Aghora sadhus have also been known to use Cannabis) � cannibalism, residing in cremation grounds, and taking part in tantric sexual rituals.)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori Personally I find it much more helpful to myself and others when I try not to write anything off for any reason. In my experience, whenever I completely write something off as not helpful/useful Life has a funny way of putting me in situations that prove me wrong, often in dramatic and uncomfortable ways. More importantly, what I've noticed is that whenever I find that I am closed off to someone else's path and label it as "not valid," I will almost always (perhaps even always and I'm just too dense to see some of the lessons) find myself in situations that show me just how valid any path can be. Love! Carson
tonightsthenight	Posted - May 25 2012 : 10:05:47 PM quote: Originally posted by AumNaturel Well, there are various methods each from a certain background, along with newer variants on those same methods, all of which can collectively be regarded as yoga practices. Other methods making use of drugs fall under a different category, perhaps Shamanism, or an eclectic approach. Just because, as a whole, they share a similar goal, and a common nervous system, does not mean the term Yoga should be reduced to a meaningless word any more than words themselves and the concepts they try to contain be done away with altogether. A judgment based on someone's experience other than your own would still be an intellectual exercise. There is certainly a place for trust, however, trust and inquiry are not mutually exclusive. If that were true, we'd be living and propagating a myth, a deeper illusion than the one being sought to uncover by use of various methods, one of which certainly is Yoga. Precision is necessary when trying to describe the means towards Self-realization (or any other ishta chosen), and so arbitrarily diluting one thing for another does no justice to the methods as they were intended by their author, be it 'the shoulders of Giants' or the specific path that has been uncovered here. Where in that do drugs fall? Should Yoga cater to include drugs, and is that really necessary? Questions for open discussion, as I don't have those answers beyond what's already proposed so far. Hi Aum I agree that words shouldn't be reduced to the point of being meaningless, and there certainly is an important place for precise terms with definite meanings. The problem I have with assigning yoga with a definite meaning is this: Yoga is an ancient system of disparate approaches to union with self and god, and there is little or no agreement among contemporary groups on what constitutes yoga and what does not. For example, the most common answer one would hear to the question, what is yoga?, is that it is asana practice. Is this any more or any less correct than the view of the common sadhu, who may smoke cannabis as part of his yoga practice? I do not see an obvious answer to the question, what is yoga? My view is simply that yoga is the path to union, and that there are certain practices that have come from that path. Does that path include intoxicating drugs? It does for some. I personally feel that certain intoxicating drugs, used with great care and in moderation, can add to spiritual experience. I can testify to this. They can also take away from it. I see great similarity between the use of props in asana practice, and the respectful use of some drugs in other practices. I appreciate this excellent discussion on the matter, and I respect your opinions, which you have obviously formulated with great care. I do think that, on the whole, you have a great point as it applies to the AYP system. Beginners should be given easily digestible instructions in order to avoid pitfulls and to progress more easily than those that lead the way. But it is not necessary to obfuscate the truth of the matter in order to do this.
AumNaturel	Posted - May 25 2012 : 9:25:37 PM Well, there are various methods each from a certain background, along with newer variants on those same methods, all of which can collectively be regarded as yoga practices. Other methods making use of drugs fall under a different category, perhaps Shamanism, or an eclectic approach. Just because, as a whole, they share a similar goal, and a common nervous system, does not mean the term Yoga should be reduced to a meaningless word any more than words themselves and the concepts they try to contain be done away with altogether. A judgment based on someone's experience other than your own would still be an intellectual exercise. There is certainly a place for trust, however, trust and inquiry are not mutually exclusive. If that were true, we'd be living and propagating a myth, a deeper illusion than the one being sought to uncover by use of various methods, one of which certainly is Yoga. Precision is necessary when trying to describe the means towards Self-realization (or any other ishta chosen), and so arbitrarily diluting one thing for another does no justice to the methods as they were intended by their author, be it 'the shoulders of Giants' or the specific path that has been uncovered here. Where in that do drugs fall? Should Yoga cater to include drugs, and is that really necessary? Questions for open discussion, as I don't have those answers beyond what's already proposed so far.
tonightsthenight	Posted - May 25 2012 : 6:53:21 PM Hey Aum, Thank you for your detailed response. I infer that you have made the choice to see yoga as something static, as if it has a definition outside of "union". As if things definitely are or are not yoga. In my mind, yoga is not something that can be clearly defined, other than to say it is the process and practice of discovering/becoming oneself. Can intoxicating drugs be a part of yoga? Absolutely. So can physical exercise, diet, even mortification. Yes, they are lifestyle choices as well. I suppose the labels depend upon the perspective. I am not an arbiter of yoga, but I have found out a lot over the years; daily unity, silence, liberation and ecstasy included. I feel as if I'm as qualified as anyone to comment on the matter. You too, will have your own opinions according to your own experience. In my eyes, if I were the beginner, I would be inclined to trust judgments based on first-hand experience from those that have sowed and reaped, rather than judgments made through intellectual exercise.