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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 01 2012 : 6:40:50 PM
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2012 : 8:56:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Gatito,
and do agree with you...
quote:
It is not my experience that silence is temporary. It only appears to be so if one believes in the existence time. The sheet is always pristine. We are the silence and the silence is everything and nothing. There are not two or more, that is only an appearance.
What Swan appears to describe seems to be a classic timeless non-dual glimpse of reality and any splitting is the mind trying to grasp it, own it and make it dual. Time can't reappear because time can't go anywhere.
If the present moment, which is all there is, is examined carefully, all these concepts fall away and we are left with everything and nothing about which nothing can be said.
Thank you for sharing with us.
So do I  we are just put of sync by a few beats in part of the song that's all. Tomato, Tomayto. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2012 : 9:11:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
So do I we are just put of sync by a few beats in part of the song that's all. Tomato, Tomayto.
Potato, potayto...
Let's call the whole thing off!  |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2012 : 10:01:20 PM
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Hi Swan,
By "just listening", I meant quieting the mind and not thinking. Kind of just let the music roll over you.
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Swan
India
256 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 12:21:04 AM
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Thanks Jeff, it sounds interesting, I would try that.
quote:
You ask really difficult questions
Gatito and Karl, actually these questions found me, and I  then started looking for you guys. Let me take the opportunity to thank you people for being there, I think I have been greatly benefitted from the discussions and got many foods for thought. Oh what a place of all we have here where we can actually speak our mind. I just can’t thank enough
And thanks for reminding me to ‘go back to the mantra’ when mind starts complicating things.
Dear Shanti, glad that you liked it and thanks for sharing your experience – it is funny and insightful.
quote:
People at times will go back to a vacation spot or relive moments over and over again to experience the love they felt for the moment... but it generally does not work, because by now the mind has defined it and labeled it... what people don't realize is that to relive the experience, they just have to go back to the gap.
I also think so, while my mind was resting in the gap at that instance, it will be full of bubbling anticipation if I go there to look for it again. So I decided that I will rather stay ‘here and now’ and just do my practice. The good thing is I think I am open for it now. Thank you Shanti and thank you all
Love … |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 1:05:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
quote:
Originally posted by karl
So do I we are just put of sync by a few beats in part of the song that's all. Tomato, Tomayto.
Potato, potayto...
Let's call the whole thing off!
BTW... I did not mean to end conversations here.. I was just quoting the lyrics to a song : http://youtu.be/ya8-ZKcOhiY
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 1:09:42 PM
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quote:
So do I we are just put of sync by a few beats in part of the song that's all. Tomato, Tomayto.
Dear Karl
I'd be grateful if you'd be kind enough to clarify what you mean by "we".
In other words. do you mean Karl, Karl and gatito or some other "we"?
Thanks in anticipation.
And while I continue to feel a sense of sadness in response to your previous question, a more complete answer is: -
"The apparently individual Jiva."
I hope that this helps.
If you'd like to explore this further, I'll be very happy to discuss it with you on the Advaita/Self-inquiry forum. Just post your question there.
With Love
gatito |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 1:41:04 PM
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Dear Swan
It would be very difficult to have a conversation if we avoided the personal pronoun
Greg Goode refers to avoidance of the use of "I" as "Lucknow disease" (in his book Standing as Awareness: The Direct Path).
And if you feel inclined to go back "there" to find "it" again, I don't believe that it would make it any less likely that "it" would or would not arise. I've not found that adding a layer of "not doing" is helpful.
Keep meditating and asking questions. As you say the questions arise naturally. I love difficult questions, I find them exciting and interesting and you have certainly enriched my understanding, as have all others who gave their responses. I too have much food for thought. Thank you all.
And I certainly agree that something very special is happening here.
With Love.......
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 4:53:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gatito
quote:
So do I we are just put of sync by a few beats in part of the song that's all. Tomato, Tomayto.
Dear Karl
I'd be grateful if you'd be kind enough to clarify what you mean by "we".
In other words. do you mean Karl, Karl and gatito or some other "we"?
Thanks in anticipation.
And while I continue to feel a sense of sadness in response to your previous question, a more complete answer is: -
"The apparently individual Jiva."
I hope that this helps.
If you'd like to explore this further, I'll be very happy to discuss it with you on the Advaita/Self-inquiry forum. Just post your question there.
With Love
gatito
Exactly the same as your answer "the apparent individual Jiva". We are singing exactly the same song but we are singing different verses, so much so, that it seems we sing entirely different songs.
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 6:34:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by gatito
quote:
So do I we are just put of sync by a few beats in part of the song that's all. Tomato, Tomayto.
Dear Karl
I'd be grateful if you'd be kind enough to clarify what you mean by "we".
In other words. do you mean Karl, Karl and gatito or some other "we"?
Thanks in anticipation.
And while I continue to feel a sense of sadness in response to your previous question, a more complete answer is: -
"The apparently individual Jiva."
I hope that this helps.
If you'd like to explore this further, I'll be very happy to discuss it with you on the Advaita/Self-inquiry forum. Just post your question there.
With Love
gatito
Exactly the same as your answer "the apparent individual Jiva". We are singing exactly the same song but we are singing different verses, so much so, that it seems we sing entirely different songs.
Yes, perhaps we are singing different verses.
Perhaps to other people, it may even appear that we are singing entirely different songs.
It certainly seems that way to me. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 7:03:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gatito
quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by gatito
quote:
So do I we are just put of sync by a few beats in part of the song that's all. Tomato, Tomayto.
Dear Karl
I'd be grateful if you'd be kind enough to clarify what you mean by "we".
In other words. do you mean Karl, Karl and gatito or some other "we"?
Thanks in anticipation.
And while I continue to feel a sense of sadness in response to your previous question, a more complete answer is: -
"The apparently individual Jiva."
I hope that this helps.
If you'd like to explore this further, I'll be very happy to discuss it with you on the Advaita/Self-inquiry forum. Just post your question there.
With Love
gatito
Exactly the same as your answer "the apparent individual Jiva". We are singing exactly the same song but we are singing different verses, so much so, that it seems we sing entirely different songs.
Yes, perhaps we are singing different verses.
Perhaps to other people, it may even appear that we are singing entirely different songs.
It certainly seems that way to me.
I know and yet I see no differences at all except for your insistence that there is a difference.its all just words, like ash in the wind. |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 10:09:02 PM
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Dear Karl
My last couple of posts have been very "unhelpful" to say the least.
I'm really struggling with having written conversations. I've only ever participated in a forum once before and that was very brief and quite a long time ago. It's a really steep learning curve and I'm not getting any younger!
There are also several different conversations going on in any one post sometimes, which doesn't help, as I sometimes get mixed-up about who I'm talking with and about what. I also find some of the concepts really difficult to express properly. Most of it also happens surrounded by wife, kids and an unruly dog!!
Sorry about the misunderstanding.
I hope we meet at a retreat and I can buy you a beer and have a proper conversation (although, I guess that the three (retreat, beer and conversation) probably don't really mix.
Perhaps you'd settle for retreat, tea and conversation? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2012 : 04:03:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gatito
Dear Karl
My last couple of posts have been very "unhelpful" to say the least.
I'm really struggling with having written conversations. I've only ever participated in a forum once before and that was very brief and quite a long time ago. It's a really steep learning curve and I'm not getting any younger!
There are also several different conversations going on in any one post sometimes, which doesn't help, as I sometimes get mixed-up about who I'm talking with and about what. I also find some of the concepts really difficult to express properly. Most of it also happens surrounded by wife, kids and an unruly dog!!
Sorry about the misunderstanding.
I hope we meet at a retreat and I can buy you a beer and have a proper conversation (although, I guess that the three (retreat, beer and conversation) probably don't really mix.
Perhaps you'd settle for retreat, tea and conversation?
Actually they have been very helpful. The analogy I use isn't very poetic but it seems to give the most clarity.
When I used to cave, the method of descending underground was by abseiling down a single rope and then using the same rope to climb back out. This usually took place in the blackness of the cave, illuminated by small cap lamps which only cast llight a few feet at most. It meant that we had no perception of the depths we were descending and ascending. Our awareness was only on our immediate surroundings.
One cave I remember vividly, was in France. Unusually the abseil was in full daylight. The rope hung from a pedestrian bridge that spanned the mouth of the cave, which was a distance of around 50m. The total length of the rope was about 240m, about 800 feet, which is around 2/3 height of the Eiffel Tower.
Now, I'm not great with heights. As long as I can't see the drop it's not a problem, but in this case my legs were shaking. One after another we abseiled into the mouth of the cave and explored it's inner secrets.
Once we had explored enough we set about the task of returning to the surface. An 800 foot rope has an enormous amount of stretch. To even get a few feet from the floor took around 20 minutes of climbing. During the ascent my mind was occupied with the careful frog like movements required to climb efficiently. It takes over an hour of hard work to climb that distance, so it's tiring and so all concentration is inward. It is very meditative, you get lost in the rhythm.
As I neared the surface I suddenly became aware of the vast drop beneath me. It seemed that every inch closer, the greater became the fear of something going wrong
I didn't explain that this is potentially a very hazardous activity, the ascending clamps can slip on the rope, jam, or fail. The rope and it's anchor can fail. The harness can fail in a number of ways. All resulting in several seconds of free fall and and the inevitable impact on cold, hard rock.
I felt like a diver needing air. The closer I came, the more the desperation to reach safety increased. The last few metres were filled with images of the rope fraying, or the anchor shattering, pushing me to greater speed,, despite my tired body and aching arms. Even though rushing would not help anything, even though I had been almost in trance, climbing that exact same rope for over an hour, the certainly of impending disaster increased exponentially, the closer I got.
I'm not going to explain the metaphor, but it's useful to understand that perception of distance isn't always linear. The closer one gets, the greater the desire to grab becomes.
Infinity is just infinity, an inch is not less.
So, now, I told a story and can claim that cup of tea as rightful payment
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Edited by - karl on Feb 03 2012 04:22:21 AM |
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Swan
India
256 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2012 : 05:45:32 AM
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Excellent description Karl, Surely you won a cup of tea.
My interpretation of this is, when we are far from our perceived destination we put lots of restrictions on our mind like ‘there is no use of complaining about fear, about pain, or fatigue as there is still a long way to go – no matter what – so better keep quiet and keep sailing’. In a way we kind of shut up our mind, and that’s how the tough journeys turn into almost meditative experience.
As we get close to our perceived destination, we let the mind loose. It starts anticipating, starts comparing the safety/comfort of the destination with the condition of journey, and physical and mental fatigue only helps it. We start craving for relief. Then it start saying ‘in any moment we will be there’ but we never can make it as fast as our mind does. That what makes the last couple of steps most critical.
Thanks for sharing the experience …
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2012 : 06:17:59 AM
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Thank you.
Yes, the mind does not see what is really there. It does not live in the present. It does not see things as they are. Always running after the future, or the past in an attempt to create order from chaos. The more it strives at this impossible task, the greater the suffering it causes.
That we survive is testimony and proof of its extraordinary success, but it has forgotten its true purpose and is prepared to do whatever it takes in order that it should remain in total control. It does not realise that the greater it strives externally, the greater the suffering internally. It was not designed for internal use, only for external survival and wreaks havock. |
Edited by - karl on Feb 03 2012 06:58:32 AM |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2012 : 2:21:11 PM
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quote:
So, now, I told a story and can claim that cup of tea as rightful payment
Now I owe you at least two!
I'm looking forward to meeting up - I did Gaping Gill (long way round, electron ladders and acetylene lamp!) over thirty years ago. First and last bit of "proper" caving for me! It was so good to get out and warm up in the pub afterwards. I can't begin to describe the relief! |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2012 : 4:18:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gatito
quote:
So, now, I told a story and can claim that cup of tea as rightful payment
Now I owe you at least two!
I'm looking forward to meeting up - I did Gaping Gill (long way round, electron ladders and acetylene lamp!) over thirty years ago. First and last bit of "proper" caving for me! It was so good to get out and warm up in the pub afterwards. I can't begin to describe the relief!
From Bar pot I would think. It's a long climb on ladders 110', done that 3 or 4 times before SRT came along. I still have a carbide lamp and used in doing foreign caves where we couldn't charge the lamps. These days a couple AA batteries and an LED and you have 12 hours of light without any of the weight penalty and a lamp catching on rocks.
The Main shaft from jib tunnel is an interesting rope rig. Several long swings are needed to get the rope deviated. I felt like a spider.
Bet you went to the Hill Inn as well? You will remember it if you went, it had wooden cart wheels dividing the bar.
I was thinking o |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2012 : 3:23:29 PM
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| I knew the Hill Inn well, as I spent many happy days on those fells and many happy evenings in the bar afterwards! I don't remember the cartwheels though and I don't remember ending up in there that evening (but I was quite seriously traumatised that day! ) |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2012 : 4:21:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gatito
I knew the Hill Inn well, as I spent many happy days on those fells and many happy evenings in the bar afterwards! I don't remember the cartwheels though and I don't remember ending up in there that evening (but I was quite seriously traumatised that day! )
It was the cavers test. One of the spokes was very tight. If you got through it you got free beer all night. No one did. Failure resulted in remaining stuck in the wheel and would result in debagging and other more graphic tortures.
The brave or drunk would retire to the bunk house at the rear of the Hill, it was usually swimming with beer and blood and would have a local rock band playing Motörhead to ear shredding levels. There were always friendly fights that ended in the odd broken nose.
You probably would have been a lot more traumatised if you had caved with us |
Edited by - karl on Feb 04 2012 4:21:46 PM |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2012 : 5:56:44 PM
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quote:
You probably would have been a lot more traumatised if you had caved with us
Yes, it doesn't sound like my cup of tea! |
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Did not know silence, got scared
