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 Satsang Cafe - General Discussions on AYP
 "Initiating" the Mantra
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Jim and His Karma

2101 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2005 :  2:21:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Really naive, foolish question: if you tap someone on the chest and murmer "I am" to them, does it really initiate the mantra?

This is how it's spread in Yogani's novel ("The Secrets of Wilder")...but maybe it's just part of the fiction? I'm terrified to try this on friends if they're just going to look at me quizzically, ala "umm...why did you just hit my chest?"

If everyone can try this on someone and report back, it might be interesting (yup, I'm hoping others will go first!). I don't know if it's necessary to move energy into the hands or not...


quickstudy

USA
20 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2005 :  2:37:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit quickstudy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I'd think the best way to determine what is reality and what is dramatization for effect in the Wilder novel would be:

If it is in the novel and in the AYP lessons book, it is reality, at least from the standpoint of yogic knowledge. If it is in the novel and not in the AYP lessons book, then it is likely a dramatization to help carry the story forward. Novels rarely have such a clear measuring rod between fact and fiction as the AYP lessons provide in this case.

Then again, some of the real things in the novel will surely test readers mightily!
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Jim and His Karma

2101 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2005 :  3:08:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, so I'll interpret it as a narrative device, then.

But what's confusing me is that shaktipat (i.e. the enabling touch of a guru) is (I'm told) a real thing. Where, I wonder, on the roadmap does this become something one can offer? I'll assume it's like siddhis...a power that may or may not pop up at some point, and shouldn't be attached to.
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2005 :  3:50:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting point.
I would guess that you would need to have a great depth in the mantra and meditaion to develop Mantra Siddhi. This could take many years or less but would probably become self evident rather than speculation. Of course the receptivity of the other person is absolutely key as well. If they have a cynical attitude then there is no point to invite ridicule, but if they have a sincere yearning then it will come much easier. Not sure about you but so far no one has tapped me on the chest and spoken the mantra to me out loud. I have corresponded with Yogani so I suppose that it has been done virtually through email. Wonder if that counts as the same? I think honestly that all that initiation drama really does is to inspire faith to practice by giving an experience at first. On the other hand I have heard stories of people practicing mantra without result until having it whispered by a guru and then suddenly having all kinds of changes so I am really just speculating.
Personally although I practice the mantra twice a day as well as other quiet times I still feel much more depth and progress with the pranayama than with the sitting meditation. I still frequently get restless after 10 minutes of meditation and often can think of many things to get up and do. The pranayama with Kechari and Chin Pump on the other hand continues to amaze me at the depth that it brings.

Edited by - Victor on Jul 22 2005 3:53:08 PM
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riptiz

United Kingdom
741 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2005 :  4:14:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit riptiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,
Shaktipat can only be given by someone of immense personal energy as in a realised guru.If one gives shaktipat and does not have sufficient purity of channels, then this person will be drained of their personal energy as shaktipat requires immense power.The mantras given by a realised guru have their personal energy within them which makes the effects of the mantra much more than one that has not been given by initiation.Initiation is also by energy transfer from one who has knowlege and training to give.
L&L
dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'
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Jim and His Karma

2101 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2005 :  4:44:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by riptiz

Hi,
Shaktipat can only be given by someone of immense personal energy as in a realised guru.If one gives shaktipat and does not have sufficient purity of channels, then this person will be drained of their personal energy as shaktipat requires immense power.The mantras given by a realised guru have their personal energy within them which makes the effects of the mantra much more than one that has not been given by initiation.Initiation is also by energy transfer from one who has knowlege and training to give.


Hi, riptiz

Whether it is possible to "give" someone divine energy (when everyone's already divine - though most of us are too deluded to realize it) is an interesting question. But one thing is for sure: energy at that level is never "personal". It does not belong to any one person because the truth is that there IS no individuality. So shaktipat and other sharing isn't accomplished without depleting because some people have lots and lots of energy in the bank (the "immense personal energy" you describe). It's that they don't own any at all, but merely serve as conduit.

I'd caution that the notion of "personal energy" (or personal anything) will steer you in the diametrically wrong direction for this path

Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 22 2005 4:46:44 PM
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Jim and His Karma

2101 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2005 :  11:15:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
That's exactly what I'm saying....except for the planetary chakras, which I don't know much about. (Pluto's been demoted and is no longer a planet, I understand. Does its chakra likewise demote?)

The best Vedanta teacher I know, Swami Dayananda, says the great mantra of the West is Let Go, Let God. He thinks that's just great. And insofar as I understand it, the further you let go and the more you let God, the more thoroughly you drop the veil of illusion. Shaktipat and other high energy things are available to those who REALLY let go and REALLY let God. So the notion that they are personally possessing or personally using divine energies is off.

I was never much for Christianity, but I'm catching up quickly lately, because I'm finding that especially the early material is really really good on this point. Those bumper stickers about Jesus driving the car, which I used to mock, are starting to make sense. I'm not yet in favor of school prayer, however. Give me a month.


quote:
Originally posted by Melissa

Hello Jim -

The one single human that I know of who can give shaktipat says whenever he does this [or a healing] that it is not his personal self, it is God and the energy comes from the Universe and it's planetary chakras. <---- I believe I paraphrased this correctly, but if there is an error, it is my fault because it is coming from my own memory! Also, the person of whom I speak is an Indian guru who is considered a perfected Master.

Just a tad more input that may or may not be relevant!

M


Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 22 2005 11:22:19 PM
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znanna

USA
8 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2005 :  8:41:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit znanna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I have channeled shaktipat for several; I am HEr priestess, and it just happens when the time is right, it seems to me.

I am only a servant, have no initiations except what has been given to me, directly.

Do you want to dance? :)


znanna
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Richard

United Kingdom
857 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2005 :  07:57:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think there is anyone on this forum who doesn't want to dance. There are some who are dancing with her inside already.

Blessings R.C.

RICHARD
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riptiz

United Kingdom
741 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2005 :  08:27:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit riptiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,
I aplogise for the poor choice of words by saying personal energy.
Of course we are simply channels for the energy of god as my satguru will tell you himself.He makes no claims to be other than that.Please let me explain where I am coming from with this statement.I always caution my students about healing others unless their levels are high enough to channel enough energy required.
Suppose a person is at a level where they are able to channel 110 volts( I'm using volts as an analogy)as the purity of their system does not allow any more at this time.When 'healing' others we simply channel energy(be it hands on or distantly)and the 'client' takes whatever is needed by them to 'heal' themselves.Now suppose the 'client' needs 240 volts to complete this phase of their healing, where do you think they are going to get it from? Thats correct your personal life force will be depleted.I know of many 'healers' within the healing community whose energy systems are severely disrupted by 'healing' too many people and not taking enough care of their own health.It is rife at the moment all over the world and suffering as a result.Unfortunately one of the symptoms is not acknowledging they have a problem as many believe it doesn't exist.One yahoo group I know of who ackowledges the problem calls it 'chakra stress syndrome' and encourages daily self healing and chakra work.
To give shaktipat safely requires an enormous amount of energy and so you can see the obvious problems with energy levels.My satguru was crowned Yogi Samrat in 1992 so he should know what he is doing.Further info on http://dhyanyogi.omdasji.googlepages.com/home
L&L
dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'
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riptiz

United Kingdom
741 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2005 :  08:51:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit riptiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Victor,
To have initiation to the mantra as compared to simply repeating it has no comparison.Initiation to mantra makes a significant difference to your experiences and progress in meditation.I was given the initiation to the MahaMritunjaya mantra by my guru and simply reading the words resulted in my face lighting up with the energy.I have given initiation to other mantras to many, both long distance and to my students and they are getting the expanded experiences and progress from them.Having studied martial arts,Tai chi, healing and Transcendental meditation before Kundalini Maha Yoga, I can tell you there is no comparison whatsoever with the effects from the meditation, other than to enhance the other practices.
L&L
dave
quote:
Originally posted by Victor

Interesting point.
I would guess that you would need to have a great depth in the mantra and meditaion to develop Mantra Siddhi. This could take many years or less but would probably become self evident rather than speculation. Of course the receptivity of the other person is absolutely key as well. If they have a cynical attitude then there is no point to invite ridicule, but if they have a sincere yearning then it will come much easier. Not sure about you but so far no one has tapped me on the chest and spoken the mantra to me out loud. I have corresponded with Yogani so I suppose that it has been done virtually through email. Wonder if that counts as the same? I think honestly that all that initiation drama really does is to inspire faith to practice by giving an experience at first. On the other hand I have heard stories of people practicing mantra without result until having it whispered by a guru and then suddenly having all kinds of changes so I am really just speculating.
Personally although I practice the mantra twice a day as well as other quiet times I still feel much more depth and progress with the pranayama than with the sitting meditation. I still frequently get restless after 10 minutes of meditation and often can think of many things to get up and do. The pranayama with Kechari and Chin Pump on the other hand continues to amaze me at the depth that it brings.



'the mind can see further than the eyes'
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Frank-in-SanDiego

USA
363 Posts

Posted - Aug 05 2005 :  5:00:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frank-in-SanDiego's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hari OM
~~~~~~~~
Hello folks,
interesting conversation here... there are many that have this power to do this. Those that do are usually trained and know who to tap and who not to tap.
It can also be called Shatipat [ or ~ descent of grace) Yogic initiation thereby awakening the aspirant's dormant kundalini shakti.
Many teacher-student ( guru-sisya) spiritual relationships are born here, after the student has earned favor of the teacher.

IF I may, my caution on this is all around permission of the reciver of this. One must clearly consider what is being done. Entering someones "space" w/o permission is a caution to consider. So, there must be mutual agreement, not to mention the selection of the right
sound vibration ( bija) to pass on.

Regards,
Frank in San Diego
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elldibor

20 Posts

Posted - Aug 11 2005 :  04:39:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit elldibor's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
An interesting discussion indeed and a good opportunity to share my personal experience.

The shaktipat mystery is a true thing. I have experienced it. The interesting detail in my case was that it was done by a lady (jain monk is what she calls herself) who was an initiate of the same line of Kundalini Maha Yoga tradition mentioned by ripitz/dave.

The range of my experiences, all done without physical contact or even physical proximity (the distance between the giver and the receiver was 2500 miles), included attunements to mantras, attunement to a from of spinal breathing called sushumna breathing(similar to Yoganis spinal breathing, but in the opposite direction and with some enhancements). Another interesting detail is that an attunement was send to me by e-mail an it had had the promised effects.

In my case the shaktipat was preceded by several months of conditioning by attunements together with solo practices of mantra and reiki style self-healing. During or after the attunements the experience can be described as a change in the quality and clarity of the consciousness and was accompanied by variety of psychological and bodily experiences.

The shaktipat itself was an incredible experience, very fine, but clearly discernible, which I will never forget as it addressed my deepest psychological problem  the inferiority complex and the feeling I will never be accepted/loved. It was for the first time in my life I felt loved and at home. It transformed me from a skeptic to a hungry seeker of truth.

I did a translation of the AYP site into Bulgarian, my native language. While doing this I have had experiences very similar to the shaktipat, with feelings of deep gratitude to Yogani. For me his writings removed darkness form fields usually kept "secret" by traditional teachers, thus allowing me the freedom of self-sufficiency in the spiritual practices.

And a word of caution. Receiving a shaktipat seems to induce an insatiable hunger for knowledge and a kind of bondage (at least temporary) to the giver. The lady who gave it to me never said it originated form her, but rather from guru and god, however I have had difficulties with letting go and continuing on my own. AYP practices and concepts helped me a lot in this.

The guru is in you.
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nearoanoke

USA
525 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2005 :  8:40:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi everybody,

Here's Yogani's view on this topic. I asked him about initiation in one of my previous mails and here is his reply....

My question:
Hi Yogani,

Today I met one friend who told me about reiki process where the guru initiates you so that your chakras are opened up initially. From then on it is upto you to do daily meditation to bring the energy up and down and maintain it.

What do you suggest me? Do I need some reiki done to me or just AYP practices will be sufficient? Please let me know



Yogani's reply:
As for energy openings by others, whether it be reiki, chakra worker, guru shaktipat, etc., well, Rome was not built in a day, and most anything someone else can do will be a drop in the bucket in the overall scheme of our journey. Enlightenment is not gained in a day, or by any one event, but in thousands of days of diving within. If you want to look around, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you keep your foundation under you.

Keep in mind that enlightenment is not mainly about opening chakras. It is about cultivating unwavering inner silence - pure bliss consciousness. That is the first stage of enlightenment. With that, all the rest comes easy. Don't give someone else the credit (and undeserved allegiance) for what you are doing yourself in daily meditation. Chakras are the tail on the dog, not the dog itself. The big dog is pure bliss consciousness, and that can only be gained in deep meditation.

Whether you are on your own or with others (even a real guru) on the path, it is always about going within yourself to stillness every day. Real teachers and gurus will always point you to that. Chakra and energy workers may or may not have that in mind. You should always keep it in mind... Inner silence is the measuring rod by which all paths are measured. The energy/chakra work is a distant second to that.


___________________________

God might not always give you what you WANT, but he will always give you what you NEED
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riptiz

United Kingdom
741 Posts

Posted - Sep 13 2005 :  6:13:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit riptiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Yogani is correct in what he says.Reiki or any energy healing technique will not make a significant difference to your progress on the path.In fact Reiki (or the like) are simply a mere glimpse of the full power of God.If you are involved in healing others and do not self heal or take care of your energy system then you will actually reverse directions with your energy system becoming blocked or the like.Any abilities you get along the way are simply side effects and healing is a very small part of the path.Even receiving shaktipat is only a boost to your practices ,(although it is a very significant boost)and as yogani said any genine guru will encourage you in your daily practices.When I received shaktipat my satguru had me spend 10 days on anhustan using cleansing mantras in japa which took about 3 hrs daily.I was also meditating up to 3/4 hrs daily.Of course this was under his direct supervision so he could observe the results and ensure I was safe.The point is he still encourages daily practice as the only way to reaching enlightenment.There are no short cuts despite what some may tell you.
L&L
dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'
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