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 Kechari, I don't feel right about cutting
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11jono11

United Kingdom
181 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2010 :  5:17:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hello wonderful souls. I have just been initiated into Kriya. Some of my practices require me to hold Kechari, at the moment I can just touch the top pallet, not the soft part yet, i don't even know if that's a stage of Kechari, this is quite uncomfortable. I am wanting to lengthen my tongue/stretch the frenum so I can get stage 1, 2, 3, 4, but there is something about cutting that just doesn't feel right with me, and didn't Lahiri Mahasaya say not to cut? I am not judging anyone else who cuts and don't necessarily want to hear arguments for it, I would just like to know what all the natural/non cutting methods are to help reach Kechari 1,2,3,4, is the roaring lion pose - Simhagarjanasana one of them? Is the other Talabya Kriya? Are there anymore and if the great Lahiri Mahasaya said not to cut, does anyone know what is his alternative?

Maybe my thinking will change on this but my intuition just tells me not to cut. Again hope this isn't seen as judging, I just need educating I guess.

Om Shanti

Love and Light

CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2010 :  5:24:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Stretching (via tongue milking) works pretty good if you do it regularly.

Love!
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2010 :  5:40:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
If it makes you feel better to cut, cutting is mentioned in ancient kechari mudra texts.
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cosmic

USA
821 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2010 :  5:48:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by 11jono11

Maybe my thinking will change on this but my intuition just tells me not to cut.



Personally, I'd go with that. Be your own Lahiri Mahasaya

Peace
cosmic
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Scott

USA
969 Posts

Posted - Jun 15 2010 :  10:49:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Scott's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
You don't need to cut. Just keep practicing.

Something else you can do: put your tongue on the roof of your mouth, so it's turned backwards. Close your mouth and apply suction, so that the tongue is pulled back. You can get a great stretch to the frenulum area this way.
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Chiron

Russia
397 Posts

Posted - Jun 16 2010 :  01:38:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
What were the reasons for Lahiri Mahasaya saying not to cut?


The same question was bothering me for a few years until I saw some cheap cuticle nippers in a hardware store.. lol. Now its just another practice. At stage 2/3 and plenty of frenulum to go! Never thought I'd be glad about having lots of frenulum left. The practice doesn't seem weird anymore either, besides, its not the first frunulum that I've ripped.. lol.


I heard Kechari isn't that useful until you reach a certain energetic condition and I think Yogani said that there is no physical prerequisite for spiritual development.. So maybe that's why Lahiri Mahasaya was saying not to cut - because the ones he was saying it to weren't ready yet.
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Ananda

3115 Posts

Posted - Jun 16 2010 :  01:44:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jono, if you feel bad about cutting that's okay. couldn't do it here also, i've tried the methods in this book including the pushing and the results were good.

http://www.kriyayogainfo.net/Eng_Home.html

practice with caution and enjoy!

namaste
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Jun 16 2010 :  04:24:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't cut (well i did one small snip out of curiousity but stopped there). I just stretched it and kept at it and now kechari is second nature, easy. So if you don't feel the urge to cut then there is no one who is going to pressure you into it. Try stretching first and if after some time you feel frustrated and feel the urge to snip your tongue be sure to read all the good detailed advice on this forum before attempting it. Oh, when I say "after some time" I mean years, not days or weeks. At the very minimum several months at least.
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Kriyaban

USA
28 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2010 :  11:13:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by 11jono11

Hello wonderful souls. I have just been initiated into Kriya. Some of my practices require me to hold Kechari, at the moment I can just touch the top pallet, not the soft part yet, i don't even know if that's a stage of Kechari, this is quite uncomfortable. I am wanting to lengthen my tongue/stretch the frenum so I can get stage 1, 2, 3, 4, but there is something about cutting that just doesn't feel right with me, and didn't Lahiri Mahasaya say not to cut? I am not judging anyone else who cuts and don't necessarily want to hear arguments for it, I would just like to know what all the natural/non cutting methods are to help reach Kechari 1,2,3,4, is the roaring lion pose - Simhagarjanasana one of them? Is the other Talabya Kriya? Are there anymore and if the great Lahiri Mahasaya said not to cut, does anyone know what is his alternative?

Maybe my thinking will change on this but my intuition just tells me not to cut. Again hope this isn't seen as judging, I just need educating I guess.

Om Shanti

Love and Light


Congrats on receiving initiation. May I ask who did it? I read your post as to who you were looking at since posting that question but dont have an answer so far. Also there seems to be a lack of knowledge regarding the true authentic methods as taught by Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya. This is understandable since there are so many who say they know it and dont. LOL many there are that claim to know this and that but i have found from years of research it just isnt true. Everyone i have seen mentioned so far (still searching this site) is not of the authentic Lineage. Even those from SRF as their version was changed by Yogananda himself, the lineage stopped with Him. NONE of the names mentioned so far practice the authentic lineage techniques according to my research and my brother/sister disciples. No proper technique, No real results to speak of. this is the reason that many left and are practicing different methods.

i read Ennio's stuff years ago and he also wasnt initiated into an authentic lineage and therefore his techniques are not accurate. we never do just 600 breaths and 50 mahamudras either as someone mentioned, those numbers are not accurate as were mentioned in another post. Yogiraj did allow different people to practice different amounts however but there is a mathmatical pattern to them. Since then though there is generally a standard amount from beginning practices until the higher stages. I am not trying to diss the people that practiced what they THOUGHT was the Kriyayogasadhana methods and most are given under the pretense that they are in fact the traditional methods but this is just not true.

So i am not sure who you did receive initiation from but wanted to clarify a few things. Not that i am some Guru but i have been initiated into an authentic lineage from my Guru in Kolkata and am trying to convey the truth that is known inside India and that has been twisted by others inside and outside India. We know who was authorized for the most part in the direct lineages. you do not find them all over the internet. heck in India most people that practice dont even have internet. i know as i was there. LOL besides that there is what is called power load sharing that happens at peak times during the day and night especially at dark and electricity goes out so it wouldnt be good to try to get people thru the net. Even ones that carry the Lahiree last name that are still living are not authorized to initiate and this fact is also known in India. the reason i bring this up is because some say in the tradition of Kriyayogasadhana it is ok to cut the frenulum, but it is NOT. Yogiraj was strictly against it. Does this mean that others that do that who do not practice our methods are wrong in what they are doing. I do not think so as we arent the only ones that practice it! If you stick with Kriyayoga then i wouldnt. Hope this helps.

Also, try not to speak about what you do in your Kriya unless your Guru said it was ok. Most dont. Not bashing you here!!!!!

As for what Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya said, you should take that as gospel if practicing Kriyayogasadhana. Dont be in a hurry and resort to other methods. Keep practicing Talabya if you do. You should be practicing it but i know that alot of people arent. many dont practice other Kriyas from the original tradition either as they arent known or arent done correctly.

Again. Listen to what Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya said if you want to practice authentic Kriya. He said all others are false. Do the way He said it and you will have His blessings. This is of utmost importance. I am not saying all others are false mind you. HE DID. Most people dont get it outside our tradition or inside for that matter, as they only know what Yogananda wrote about Lahiree which many things were either incorrect or modified. I am not saying its completely his fault but it is fact. Lahiree Mahasaya was a lot more than a "Christ Like Yogi". If it were me, i would follow His advice, if you want to learn more then you may email me and i will give you information as to where you can find His own thoughts and experiences as contained in His 26 diaries. Good luck.

Edited by - Kriyaban on Jun 18 2010 4:20:03 PM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2010 :  11:32:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Kriyaban
As for what Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya said, you should take that as gospel.



On the other hand, Lord Shiva says to cut the 'frenum of death'
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Kriyaban

USA
28 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2010 :  11:38:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

quote:
Originally posted by Kriyaban
As for what Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya said, you should take that as gospel.



On the other hand, Lord Shiva says to cut the 'frenum of death'



Exactly and some schools tend to think it means literally to cut. Others do it by other methods that over time "cuts" it. Its all in interpretation. Most that expound on the scriptures may have external knowledge but Yogiraj did write in His diaries what the entire Gita and other scriptures actually meant in the light of Kriya. thats all i am speaking about seeng as how the poster practices Kriyayogasadhana. this was done thru His spirtual insight received in meditation. hence the reason some that take it literally and others listen to what a Spiritually realized person says. Its all in the interpretation. I am not saying he cant do it another way, i am just saying if he is practicing authentic Kriya, then he shouldnt. thats all brother.

Edited by - Kriyaban on Jun 18 2010 12:16:04 PM
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Clear White Light

USA
229 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2010 :  11:58:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
If you don't want to cut your tongue you shouldn't feel obligated to just because some spiritual traditions may advise it. If you look long enough, I'm sure you will find a tradition which engages in basically any kind of behavior you can imagine. Ultimately, it comes down to your own inner sense of guidance. Personally, I don't think I would cut my tongue either, regardless of who instructed me to do so.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2010 :  12:09:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Just FYI.....

Frenulum cutting is a medically accepted and oft used practice and is quite safe. My daughter Amrita (1 month old today) was born with a very large frenulum and she could not stick her tongue out of her mouth very far making it difficult for her to breastfeed....our doctor actually recommended cutting the frenulum (which we did on the 5th day after birth). If done properly it is completely safe and pretty much painless.

Love!
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2010 :  3:25:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow Carson, is this the new "yogic circumcision" ritual?
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2010 :  3:44:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Victor

Wow Carson, is this the new "yogic circumcision" ritual?



Hahaha. It really had nothing to do with yoga, but I was certainly thinking about how it would make Kechari easier for her later in life. The reason they cut it was because it makes it easier for her to breastfeed and because it may have made it difficult for her to speak when the frenulum was so big. Basically she was "tongue-tied".

Love!
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Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Jun 18 2010 :  8:32:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by 11jono11

Hello wonderful souls. I have just been initiated into Kriya. Some of my practices require me to hold Kechari, at the moment I can just touch the top pallet, not the soft part yet, i don't even know if that's a stage of Kechari, this is quite uncomfortable. I am wanting to lengthen my tongue/stretch the frenum so I can get stage 1, 2, 3, 4, but there is something about cutting that just doesn't feel right with me, and didn't Lahiri Mahasaya say not to cut? I am not judging anyone else who cuts and don't necessarily want to hear arguments for it, I would just like to know what all the natural/non cutting methods are to help reach Kechari 1,2,3,4, is the roaring lion pose - Simhagarjanasana one of them? Is the other Talabya Kriya? Are there anymore and if the great Lahiri Mahasaya said not to cut, does anyone know what is his alternative?

Maybe my thinking will change on this but my intuition just tells me not to cut. Again hope this isn't seen as judging, I just need educating I guess.

Om Shanti

Love and Light




Hi 11jono11,

Congratulations on your kriya initiation; I hope it's beneficial for you.

Regarding cutting: as others have said, going with intuition is fine. However, concern about going against the teachings of Lahiri Mahasaya (or anyone) could potentially block the fullness of intuition, as well.

I'm not saying that is the case, I'm just saying it could be; consult your own intuition to find out.

Lahiri Mahasaya, a 19th century yogic teacher, said not to cut the frenum or frenulum or whatever it's called. He's been dead (or the physical body he kicked around in has been dead) for quite some time, now.

Who knows? Maybe if he could have ordered stainless-steel cuticle snippers online, he'd have been all for it.



A living yogic teacher (Yogani) says cutting is fine.

Another living yogic teacher (me) says the same.

Point Being: adhering to anyone else's ideas or statements, about anything, is simply freezing the flow of intuition in your own awareness, and in my experience, flowing is always better than frozen (unless we're talking right-use of ice cubes, or some such .... ).

BTW, do I think you should cut? I literally have no idea. I'm just suggesting that you also drop your ideas, and let intuition flow freely.

I'd offer non-cutting technique advice, but don't know of any. I cut; it worked out fine; end of story.



Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman

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11jono11

United Kingdom
181 Posts

Posted - Jun 25 2010 :  05:39:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for all your posts :) .

For now I have decided to go with stretching exercises, and I have been told that my frenulum is nice and thin + that I should be able to reach stage 3 quickly, as quick as I am destined to anyway I am sure.

Peace, Love and Light.

Om Shanti
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NagoyaSea

424 Posts

Posted - Jun 25 2010 :  11:58:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I completely agree with Clear White Light. My feeling is, any time your intuition tells you not to do something, then follow your intuition.

life, light and love,

Kathy
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Jun 25 2010 :  7:00:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I reached kechari mudra stage 2 after two years of trying. Honestly, if you really want to speed things up, get a lingual frenectomy, but tell the guy to stick something behind the frenum like a 14 guage piercing needle, and then cut to that. That way you know the whole thing is gone for sure.

Then start stretching like a maniac.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Jun 25 2010 7:24:11 PM
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kriyaban108

USA
3 Posts

Posted - Jul 19 2010 :  3:01:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit kriyaban108's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
To cut or not to cut aside, you are all leaving out an important component to accomplishing khechari, and that is bhakti. Cutting was not an option for me because of Lahiri Mahasay's injunction. I practiced talabya kriya for 3 months, slowly increasing the number of repetitions. It seemed that my tongue was not getting any closer to the soft palette.
I began to doubt my resolve not to cut. A day or two later I prayed very deeply asking almost to the point of tears for khechari. The next day, thinking that nothing had changed in my tongue position, I pushed my tongue back during my practice and instantly felt the soft palette. I then entered 2nd stage effortlessly through the right side. Do not think that achieving khechari is only done by physical means. Deep desire or bhakti can play a huge role.
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debparial

India
1 Posts

Posted - Nov 30 2010 :  06:48:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi, Kriyaban,this is deb from Delhi. Can you please guide me to the source for the 26 diaries of Shri Lahiri Mahasaya, where in the original teachings of Him can be found.
quote:
Originally posted by debparial

quote:
Originally posted by Kriyaban

quote:
Originally posted by 11jono11

Hello wonderful souls. I have just been initiated into Kriya. Some of my practices require me to hold Kechari, at the moment I can just touch the top pallet, not the soft part yet, i don't even know if that's a stage of Kechari, this is quite uncomfortable. I am wanting to lengthen my tongue/stretch the frenum so I can get stage 1, 2, 3, 4, but there is something about cutting that just doesn't feel right with me, and didn't Lahiri Mahasaya say not to cut? I am not judging anyone else who cuts and don't necessarily want to hear arguments for it, I would just like to know what all the natural/non cutting methods are to help reach Kechari 1,2,3,4, is the roaring lion pose - Simhagarjanasana one of them? Is the other Talabya Kriya? Are there anymore and if the great Lahiri Mahasaya said not to cut, does anyone know what is his alternative?

Maybe my thinking will change on this but my intuition just tells me not to cut. Again hope this isn't seen as judging, I just need educating I guess.

Om Shanti

Love and Light


Congrats on receiving initiation. May I ask who did it? I read your post as to who you were looking at since posting that question but dont have an answer so far. Also there seems to be a lack of knowledge regarding the true authentic methods as taught by Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya. This is understandable since there are so many who say they know it and dont. LOL many there are that claim to know this and that but i have found from years of research it just isnt true. Everyone i have seen mentioned so far (still searching this site) is not of the authentic Lineage. Even those from SRF as their version was changed by Yogananda himself, the lineage stopped with Him. NONE of the names mentioned so far practice the authentic lineage techniques according to my research and my brother/sister disciples. No proper technique, No real results to speak of. this is the reason that many left and are practicing different methods.

i read Ennio's stuff years ago and he also wasnt initiated into an authentic lineage and therefore his techniques are not accurate. we never do just 600 breaths and 50 mahamudras either as someone mentioned, those numbers are not accurate as were mentioned in another post. Yogiraj did allow different people to practice different amounts however but there is a mathmatical pattern to them. Since then though there is generally a standard amount from beginning practices until the higher stages. I am not trying to diss the people that practiced what they THOUGHT was the Kriyayogasadhana methods and most are given under the pretense that they are in fact the traditional methods but this is just not true.

So i am not sure who you did receive initiation from but wanted to clarify a few things. Not that i am some Guru but i have been initiated into an authentic lineage from my Guru in Kolkata and am trying to convey the truth that is known inside India and that has been twisted by others inside and outside India. We know who was authorized for the most part in the direct lineages. you do not find them all over the internet. heck in India most people that practice dont even have internet. i know as i was there. LOL besides that there is what is called power load sharing that happens at peak times during the day and night especially at dark and electricity goes out so it wouldnt be good to try to get people thru the net. Even ones that carry the Lahiree last name that are still living are not authorized to initiate and this fact is also known in India. the reason i bring this up is because some say in the tradition of Kriyayogasadhana it is ok to cut the frenulum, but it is NOT. Yogiraj was strictly against it. Does this mean that others that do that who do not practice our methods are wrong in what they are doing. I do not think so as we arent the only ones that practice it! If you stick with Kriyayoga then i wouldnt. Hope this helps.

Also, try not to speak about what you do in your Kriya unless your Guru said it was ok. Most dont. Not bashing you here!!!!!

As for what Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya said, you should take that as gospel if practicing Kriyayogasadhana. Dont be in a hurry and resort to other methods. Keep practicing Talabya if you do. You should be practicing it but i know that alot of people arent. many dont practice other Kriyas from the original tradition either as they arent known or arent done correctly.

Again. Listen to what Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya said if you want to practice authentic Kriya. He said all others are false. Do the way He said it and you will have His blessings. This is of utmost importance. I am not saying all others are false mind you. HE DID. Most people dont get it outside our tradition or inside for that matter, as they only know what Yogananda wrote about Lahiree which many things were either incorrect or modified. I am not saying its completely his fault but it is fact. Lahiree Mahasaya was a lot more than a "Christ Like Yogi". If it were me, i would follow His advice, if you want to learn more then you may email me and i will give you information as to where you can find His own thoughts and experiences as contained in His 26 diaries. Good luck.




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Holy

796 Posts

Posted - Nov 30 2010 :  7:56:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Holy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I think besides the topic of kechari, the diaries of Lahiri Mahasaya would be interesting for many =P
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Nov 30 2010 :  8:24:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Are you guys talking about this well known site?

http://www.yoganiketan.net/
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Parindra

1 Posts

Posted - Sep 11 2014 :  1:16:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Parindra's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I have read some nice replies about the cutting of frenum question.

I have a question - Anybody attain Khechari Mudra who was actually born tongue-tied? Anybody here who had a very thick and short frenum who attained Khechari with out cutting?

Most people have an average size frenum meaning it's a thin membrane, where 6 months maybe 2 years of Talabya Kriya practice would stretch and make enough microcuts on the frenum that it can reach further back.

But I want to hear from someone who had a thick short frenum?

And to CarsonZi, depending on how much of the frenum the doctors cut, it may *not* be easier for your daughter to do Khechari. Most doctors when performing a frenectomy on a tongue-tied baby will only *snip* enough of the frenum allowing the tongue to extend enough that it can reach outside of the lips. That is pretty much their goal, for the tongue to reach outside the lips.

The rest of the frenum if they leave it, will still be very short and very thick, not allowing the tip of the tongue to roll back to reach the soft palate nor to even reach the top of the roof with the mouth open.
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Rockencook

USA
1 Posts

Posted - Aug 16 2020 :  2:54:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
In the late 1800s and early 1900s, advising a bunch of people to cut their tongue would have been disastrous. Think of the lack of medicine back then. Penicillin wasn't even discovered until 1928. Advising a bunch of people to cut their frenulum who didn't even have an understanding of sanitation, antibiotics, or access to medical facilities (as we know it today) would have resulted in countless horror stories of infection and self mutilation. Of course anyone with half a brain would have advised against it.

However, the Hatha Yoga Pradipika and other tantric texts describe cutting the frenulum. The advice given there is to make a tiny cut, not even the breadth of a hair, once a week for 6 months and to rinse daily with clean water, salt and a herb I don't remember. This advice is given along with other exercises to help achieve Kechari. They say there that the practices and milking takes many months, (maybe longer). This advice was for serious renunciates living high up in the mountains somewhere probably, not your average person.

You can find plenty of stories on the net of frenulum cutting. Most aren't about Kechari. Lots of kids like tongue piercings and many tattoo shops do it for about 10% of the cost a dentist charges. But be aware, from what I have read, the cutting alone doesn't grant you a long tongue, just adds a few Millimeters. So from stories I have read on the internet from people who have had a lingual frenectomy for the purposes of Kechari, they still had a long ways to go after the procedure. I would at least consult a doctor or dentist familiar with the procedure.

Edited by - Rockencook on Aug 18 2020 11:24:09 PM
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th1996

Germany
31 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2022 :  09:58:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Is it possible without cutting or other practises to reach stage 2 and 3 ?
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