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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 07:32:20 AM
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Has anyone practiced this sort of rules? (the text below is from S. Sivananda)
Control the indriyas (senses), through introspection. Destroy the thirst for objects and sense-enjoyments then you will be established in supreme peace. Speak the truth and talk little. Observe silence for two hours daily. Speak only sweet, loving, soft words. Do not go to cinemas; do not look at ladies with a lustful look. When you move in the street look at the tip of the nose; do not look hither and thither. This is discipline of the eye, the organ of sight.
Do not attend dancing parties and do not listen to vulgar music. Give up musical entertainments and listening to worldly conversation. This is the discipline of the ear, the organ of hearing. Do not use scents. This is the discipline of the nose, the organ of smell. Give up salt and sugar for a week. Live on simple food. Fast on ekadasi (eleventh day of the lunar fortnight) or live on milk. This is the discipline of the tongue, the organ of taste.
Observe brahmacarya. Sleep on a hard mat. Walk barefooted. Do not use umbrellas. This is the discipline of the skin, the organ of touch.
To check the wandering mind and to develop concentration, fix your mind on your ista devata (ideal). Bring the mind back again when it wanders and fix it on the image.
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Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 06 2007 9:01:18 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 10:56:49 AM
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Hi Lili:
It is the path of the renunciate, which does not fit well into everyday living. In fact, in ordinary living, to take this approach is divisive -- just the opposite of yoga, which means union.
Interestingly, if we are established in inner silence through daily deep meditation, we will inwardly be doing all that Sivananda recommends, not engaged on the level of our inner Self, even as we are enjoying life in the world. More than that -- with inner silence coming up, whatever we do in the world will enhance our growth -- stabilize our inner silence and stimulate the rise of ecstatic bliss and the flow of divine love from within. That is union.
I have the highest regard for Sivananda, but to apply this advice in everyday living would be to take it out of context. This lifestyle is consistent with the life of a renunciate -- not for householders.
We have to ask the question: What are renunciates doing anyway? Seeking enlightenment, or hiding from life? While some are sincerely engaged in the former, many are doing the latter. It is a problem for all monastics to deal with.
For householders, the question of personal motivation is also there. But at least we can do our yoga practices and then go about our business the rest of the time without being haunted by rules about what we can and cannot do with our lives, knowing we will grow simply by doing our practices and engaging in life however we see fit -- no self-judgement necessary...
The guru is in you.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 1:54:07 PM
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Hi Lili. Tho not a renunciate, I've gone for days without speaking to anyone, with the intention of focusing all attention inward. No music, as little sound as possiblle, a lot of inward gazing. Of course one needs to hide away to do this, and it can get pretty intense. Have you tried any of the things you mention? If so, how does is affect you?
meg |
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 3:31:16 PM
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Dear Yogani,
Thank you very much for the detailed response. It is good to hear that there is an alternative to these recommendations. Some of them appear very hard to follow by an ordinary person. |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Nov 20 2005 : 6:54:19 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~~~
Hello Lili,Yogini (et.al)
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
We have to ask the question: What are renunciates doing anyway? Seeking enlightenment, or hiding from life? While some are sincerely engaged in the former, many are doing the latter. It is a problem for all monastics to deal with.
For householders, the question of personal motivation is also there.
I would like to offer up two points…One that Lili brings to the group and one that Yogini points to.
On Renunciation
This question of renunciation has pondered many a seeker for the millennium.
The house holder (grhastha) has struggled with this - " I have my family duty yet I seek enlightenment- how do I leave my responsibilities?" . How does one reconcile this?
The notion of renunciation is to give up or renounce . What is one giving up? It’s the notion that what I see around me, is not me. That " I am not this" - I renounce that I am not that ( niti niti !! as the wise say). I am not change/relative field of life. I am THAT ( unchanging all pervading SELF).
With this , we can renounce 2X per day when we transcend - we are "giving up" the relative field of life and grooming our awareness to become established in the SELF 7x24x365.
On Renunciates..What are they doing anyway?
Some choose to become a sanyasa - "sam" = complete, make perfect and "ni" = down + "as" = to throw . With sanyasa" to throw down completely/to make perfect" . To throw down the relative world completely and pursue Kevalya or Liberation. It’s the decision and fullness of intent to pursue this goal . Its also considered the last stage in human life after all duty has been performed in
The other 3 stages. (These stages are called asrama ~ halting place and 4 stages of life).
Pehaps some are hiding… who are we to judge. We are on this path and NO ONE will be left behind - " no effort is ever lost" says Krsna to Arjuna. It may take a few trips to get it right. All should be praised for the effort and intent to reach Atman.
It's when the time is right , one should consider this sanyasin stage, yet it is not for all. The goal, albeit sanyasin or grhastha (householder) is to improve and develop. This can be called sanskrtam - or "sam" - to complete/make perfect + "kr" = to do like. Some say sanskrtam is to polish and make perfect.
Brahmavid brahmaiva bhavati
The knower of Brahman is Brahman itself - Mundaka Upanishad
Peace…
Frank in San Diego
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Lili
Netherlands
372 Posts |
Posted - Nov 21 2005 : 05:15:33 AM
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Dear Meg,
So far I have only tried fasting (eating nothing for a day) and certain diets. But I guess these are relatively minor aspects to this type of behaviour. To me it looks like the 'main' point is a mindframe or way of seeing things that one needs to develop and maintain non-stop. To be honest I don't see myself developing this sort of thinking soon because you need massive motivation to do that. Perhaps as Frank in San Diego says this is more feasible once you have reached certain age and/or retired. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 25 2005 : 11:04:46 PM
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I want to dance with cologne on with an umbrella to vulgar music, look at women lustfully while loudly babbling on thoughtlessly, and eat salt and sugar and complex foods while looking hither and thither!
Try looking at the tip of your nose and see what you look like.
You wouldn't be withdrawing from the world walking down the street in this country! Unless all the laughter and remarks could be
percieved as white noise for your meditation. And try crossing a street in New York without looking hither and thither. You'll be much lighter in no time.
I think a lot of ascetics withdraw from the world because they hate the world and don't want any part of it. Unfortunately this makes their path at least as hard as trying to be in the world and un-attached.
I think there are two reasons spiritual knowledge is so hard to convey in words. The first is that words have different meanings in different times and cultures. The second is that there are so many paths, and the words spoken to one disciple or group may be totally wrong for another individual or group. When someone is speaking there is also someone listening, and both of those ingredients help to determine the meaning of the words.
people tend to hang on to everything said by spiritual leaders, but who knows who the words were meant for? maybe there was an ascetic who was doing half that stuff and hearing that gave him a jump start to go on. So all words spoken by the wisest of people aren't necessarily for everyone. You have to intuit which ones are for you.
Fasting for a day or two does have an incredible effect though, especially if you're sick. no cheating; just water!
Etherfish |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2005 : 3:40:30 PM
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>>Fasting for a day or two does have an incredible effect though, especially if you're sick. no cheating; just water!
I agree with this idea wholeheartedly. Instead of making yourself miserable by renouncing everything that you enjoy, or feeling guilty that you haven't done so, set aside a period of time in which you can abstain from all the things that you consider diversions from your path. With a little effort and preparation, most people can manage to lock themselves away for 3-4 days at a time, hang a DO NOT DISTURB sign on their door (or cave), and turn their focus inward in silence. It's difficult, especially when you're not accustomed to the isolation, but the benefits are truly amazing. As I see it, the problem with making a permanent lifestyle change is that you don't get to experience the joy of returning to your life of sin.
meg |
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Nov 26 2005 : 4:29:49 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~~
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I think a lot of ascetics withdraw from the world because they hate the world and don't want any part of it. Unfortunately this makes their path at least as hard as trying to be in the world and un-attached.
Hello Etherfish,
An interesting perspective on withdrawal. I can see not wanting any part of the world. If you have some time to read Vasistha's Yoga, the whole first section is dedicated to Sri Ram's dispassion with the world. If I may, the word that seems to fit with Sri Ram's view is more of "uselessness". HE says " All beings take birth but to die, and they die to be reborn! I do note perceive any meaning in all these transient phenomena which are the roots of suffering and sin"
I do not see much hate for HIS withdrawal from the relative {mundane} field of life. The upliftment of Sri Ram comes from Vasistha's explanation of “all this is pure consciousness”.
Vasishti's brilliance also discounts the weight of past births on this particular life and says one's self effort NOW is key to shaping ones destiny - as it has the greatest weight.
"Fate is nothing other then self-effort of a past incarnation... THERE IS NO POWER GREATER THEN RIGHT ACTION IN THE PRESENT ... one who says fate is directing me to do this is brainless and the goddess of fortune abandons him" so says Brahmarshi Vasistha {chap 2: sutra's 4 & 5)
The message - I [we] are not a victims ... rise up and take action for Liberation.
Peace,
Frank in San Diego
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Nov 28 2005 : 09:27:46 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
We have to ask the question: What are renunciates doing anyway? Seeking enlightenment, or hiding from life? While some are sincerely engaged in the former, many are doing the latter.
A Benedictine monk I know once said to me (jokingly, but with meaning also) -- add the Irish accent yourselves :
Sure we'd all be out getting married and having kids like everyone else -- if we could handle it!
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mystiq
India
62 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2006 : 12:58:59 PM
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Dear Friends I started my spiritual quest, fired by reading the books of Swami Shivananda. He is one great person full of humility and love. He has contributed tremendously to the upliftment of so many people and spirituality at large. All that he says is true from the old school point of view. But the age and context in which he lived is different. Even though what he says is good for us its very difficult to practice. Yoganis method is so much more practical.Anyhow like meg says a little of austerity goes a long way if it is done willingly for the right purpose and if it doesnt give one a holier than thou attitude.
mystiq |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2006 : 5:31:49 PM
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Yes the age and context of where he lived is very different. And where you live Mystiq, in India is very different from here in the USA. People are more spiritually oriented there.
A lot of my viewpoint comes from living here where people are mostly worldly. That's why I don't think the way of renunciation is very good for us here. It may bring you personal enlightenment by following one of the most difficult paths, but it is only for yourself, and wouldn't help others very much. "kind and loving" words and thoughts are fine, but they don't influence people very much.
People here are influenced by others who understand the life they are living. That means you have to talk with them, gain their trust, and exchange world views with them. You need to communicate with them on a
long term basis. Then they will listen to you.
Enlightenment is a fine goal, but I believe ultimately we need to take everyone else along with us. So as each of us becomes enlightened, I believe it is our obligation to help some of those worldly people get just one step closer to where we are all going. A century ago that may have been an impossible task, but today it's possible.
Some people are very slow in their evolution, but if you can help them take one step, like being less of a racist, or being more tolerant of others, or taking positive action rather than just indulging in hate when they think something is being done wrong, then I believe you will be of more value to God than a renunciate.
Like you guys are saying, we can withdraw from the world for a while, with intention of returning and continuing God's work.
How would an ascetic help with God's work? By sending out super good energy
from a cave to make the world better? Or eventually become a holy man people will listen to?
What if you never reach the stage where understanding people is intuitive? You can learn to understand and communicate with people by dealing with them every day. it's a difficult thing to learn and takes a lot of years. Unfortunately people here don't just automatically respect "holy men". |
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mystiq
India
62 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2006 : 07:39:24 AM
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Dear Ether, I certainly dont know what life is like in the US, but here in India everybody is very materialistic. Nobody is interested in spirituality. if at all they go to God it is with a shopping list (job marriage health children etc).Nobody even wants to hear about real spirituality. They get agitated. Real gurus are very few and if at all surrounded by charlatans.True spirituality is a very personal matter. Its an area which nobody exposes, and very difficult to influence externally maybe thats why Yogani says (the guru is in you).Some so called spiritual people arnt even good persons (Swami Shivananda was an exception I think). Regarding evoluton, there will always be people on the evolutionary path and those on the opposite path. The hows and whys escape our thinking capacity while it is noble to want to help others, it may be wiser to help oneself evolve spiritually so that others may partake of your aura. I enjoy posting on here because there are like minded people who have interesting points of view not because I think my view is right.
mystiq |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2006 : 10:54:49 AM
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Dear Mystic,
I found much of what you speak of true when I visited India but I was fortunate to be surrounded by spiritual people and so the 'western disease' did not affect me while there.I was lucky enough to only go to spiritual places.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2006 : 11:29:19 AM
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Hello Dave,
what is the 'western disease'? I wouldn't say your guru uses this term, does he?
-D |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 14 2006 11:55:46 AM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2006 : 2:14:19 PM
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Dear David,
No Guruji does not use this or my guru but we well know what it is although it is not specific only to the west but worldwide.Greed, ego, manipulation of others and simply doing unto others instead of doing for others.When i was in India one of my guru's students came for shaktipat at the same time as me and many others. She is a millionaires daughter in law and was used to the trappings that came with it.Although she follows the yogic path on the day she was to return to her home city, she had to don western style clothes or eles her neighbours would have snubbed her for wearing traditional dress.Shame isn't it?
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2006 : 5:19:06 PM
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hi Mystiq,
I didn't know India is like that. I see movies where religious people walk the streets or sit by rivers and recite scriptures all day. I thought there was a lot of that. There is none of it here, at least in public.
Yes we do need to work on ourselves first and foremost. But those people you say are on an "opposite path", I really don't believe that. I think there are small ways we can help them if we understand them. They may be way behind us on the path, but sometimes the least little thing helps them.
Sometimes you can plant a seed in their mind that will grow ten years later. You might say something like "I believe finding God is the reason we are here." If said at the right time, when the person feels a rapport with you, that can plant a seed.
I've surprised some worldly people because I wasn't getting furious when somebody treated me badly. When I said goodbye to the person who had mistreated me for months, I shook their hand and wished them the best of luck in the future. I could see in their face that they realized they had been bad to me and didn't understand what was going on. but I have to be immersed in their world to help them. I certainly don't believe their world though!
I agree it is great to have people here to talk to. What a blessing the internet is, to be able to communicate with people in other countries who have common interests! |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 14 2006 5:21:04 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2006 : 5:42:58 PM
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The best beer in the world is being brewed in the USA. And Germany's best artisinal brewers are all fading from lack of interest (Germans drink Warsteiner, essentially the Bud of Germany). Yet Germans smugly dismiss American beer as watery and proudly proclaim their nation's great beer tradition.
Same's true of India and spirituality. A great many Indians are super eager capitalist materialists, and, until recently, yoga was something the average Indian had no exposure to (and vedanta was a painful class you had once a week with some old bearded swami dude, as dry and suffered-through as Catechism or Hebrew classes). The resurgence of interest in yoga (both dilute and serious), vedanta, and all that was fueled on the rebound from western seekers. Yet Indians still feel smug spiritual superiority, and some of the most condescending are the most materialistic themselves.
To be sure, America has its share of greedy ditzy superficial people. And India's got some earnest seekers. But there's lots of everything in each of these large, diverse countries. So those who cluck their tongues at how the West is unspiritual are showing ignorance at best and empty-headed nationalism at worst. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 14 2006 5:44:56 PM |
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mystiq
India
62 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 03:00:56 AM
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In matters of spirituality there is no nationality.There are great spiritual people from all traditions, and yoga isnt the only spiritual route is it? Some names which come to mind are St John of the cross, St Angela of Foligno, St Theresa of Avila etc in the Christian mystical tradition.I remember the words of one of my gurus Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, that we are first divine beings, then human beings, then male or female, then belonging to a country, religion etc. That is the order of priority.Not the other way round.Love
mystiq |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 10:33:08 AM
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Yes there are great christian mystics and there are a few people today who practice christianity and meditate, and are on the same path as we are.
Unfortunately the vast majority of christians are just like everyone who is worldly, and love the easy road. They pick the religion that is easiest to make yourself feel better, and believe they are confirming the truth by listening to someone tell them they are doing it right.
And why not, they believe they have proof, in a book. Very few investigate the history of where that book came from. Those that do I applaud wholeheartedly. there are reverends who know the bible is mostly myth and still teach the true meaning of christianity. bravo for them.
More and more as people make that small paradigm shift of taking responsibility themselves,
as AYP is teaching, rather than listening to someone else, the world is becoming vastly closer to healing itself and its inhabitants. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 1:18:34 PM
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"Go with the flow", "Let go, let God", "Be Here Now", "Let it all hang out", "Don't fight the feeling"
All from America, all from the past 40 years, all as insightful as anything in the Vedas... and all actually struck a massive chord with the mainstream culture (to the point of being considered cliches).
Nothing more need be said.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 19 2006 1:24:11 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2006 : 5:35:41 PM
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| It's all good. |
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noche
Colombia
16 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 10:19:06 PM
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the mayas say that there is a two way cicle that time elapses. one evolves, the othr involves. one is going the way of the spirit, the other, the way of the "western sickness": matter (extreme meaning- time is money).
we humans are to choose, even though the book is writed. sadhana, meditation, takes away that duality. opening the spirit way. 2012 is a deathline of joy and the know all, noosphere.
in lak´ech |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2006 : 12:02:35 AM
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Interesting, noche. That brings up questions if you're interested in answering:
Is this ancient writings, or new?
Do you know Mayans today who think this way?
What is "noosphere"?
If the duality is taken away, wouldn't that mean the union of spirit and matter, rather
than just going the way of spirit? |
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noche
Colombia
16 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 5:16:50 PM
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Hi Etherfish, yes it is interesting but sometimes is also esoteric.
the ancient background of this info. comes from two tombs. One is Pacal Votans´ and the other from the Red Queen, people buried around 680AC. at the peak of mayan civilization. Pacal Votans tomb has writings on tha walls,etc. which contain the prophecy of its finding, etc. the tpmb from the red queen lacks any scriptures, and it represents the next big cyce of time which begins after 2012, after the end of history. the mayans kept various calendars,two wich end on december 21, 2012. one wich has a 26.000 years cycle, and other of 5125 years. important dates from this calendars can be found on ancient mayan cities of the yucatan penninsula.
More specific info. is brougth by Jose Arguelles, and thelawoftime.org. he simple states that we have to change our notion of time to return the human being to a more harmonic being with nature and its cycles, following -within many obvius things (love, spitituality, etc)a calendar (lunar) and a galactic code, somehow summarizing: time is art. He says that the gregorian calendar is crooked, and is one of the responsible from the sickness to ourselves and to the earth.
those mayan calendars with huge amonts of years, tell about the earth evolution in respect to the sun, and to events in our galaxy.we humans, as a product of the eaarth are also invloved in what happens to her, so in this moment in time and having on account the faculties and power of the human mind, we can be (willing) "good, earthly" channels and energy consumers-manipulators, etc. to activate the syncronization that is going to take place on the above mentioned date. if not, we have heard of what is happening with the sustainability of future life. Somehow the movement relators say that we have to work hard and live the present, etc. and make everybody aware of the situation so they can evolve to become "new-age humans", but they also say that the coming solar age is a reality, like someting already written. here somehow connects the notion of two flows of time. one cycle leads to matter, the other leads to atman. the next human is a step closer to spirit that it was before.
the noosphere is the planetary mind with the record of every conscious "video", every mind imput and output from the biosphere thats has happened and is hapenning on earth. this is creating an image (holographic) from the earth and is accecible for the mind with no ego. but the principal reason of this event on the evolution of the earth and the solar system, is a mark from a type of connected systems within the galaxy, in wich the third dimension and the forth dimension are trascended to enter a fifth dimension. Like we are going to enter a galactic confederation, a state more evolved that the one we have lived thru our hisoty. that is the part that i am still chewing.
about the duality, yoga is the union. but what happen when we die and massively and colectively trascend the weel of karma? even though 2012 is only the begining of another great cycle. one wich time gets trascended.
in lak´ech |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2006 : 5:57:41 PM
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| Thank you noche. It's very informative. |
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Discipline of the senses
