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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 12 2005 : 10:28:51 AM
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Hi
Im living in a Yoga Ashram in the Sivanada / Visnu-Devananda Lineage.
Its classical Yoga. "We" are doing a lot rituals like Pujas, Homas....
But Im not shure how to think about. Is it really so powerful to celebrate rituals like that? Some people really live just for this events and they often talk about how strong the cleaning process were. Perhaps Im just not at this level to realize how important rituals are. For me its nice to see and participate but I cant believe that you get "enlighted" with this pratices.
Is it just an old tradition we try to keep alive or are these practices really so important?
I tend to the first one but I have no Idea.
These lessons and the forum are so great.
Thanks to all!
oliver |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2005 : 3:38:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by brauniver
"We" are doing a lot rituals like Pujas, Homas....
But Im not shure how to think about. Is it really so powerful to celebrate rituals like that?
Hi Oliver,
the situation you are in is that of a bunch of people in Satsang. They are in a community effort to live spiritually ( Satsang ) but they are still a bunch o' people at the same time and everything that goes with that goes with them.
Will they get enlightened by having those rituals? Well, look at the people who have been there for some time. Are they enlightened? Probably not --- but maybe more than they were.
>> Perhaps Im just not at this level to realize how important rituals are.
I wouldn't put it that way myself. I wouldn't assume that greater spiritual advancement makes a person more interested in rituals.
>> Some people really live just for this events and they often talk about how strong the cleaning process were.
There you have it -- the word people crops up again.  I've found that people are like that, especially in situations like that. What's going on cannot be painted all under one brush.
Some of these people make their moods with that kind of thing. They love to talk about how much something has cleansed them, and they may experience the event as powerful but that does not necessarily mean that it has any lasting effect on them at all. We can still look on that in a positive light --- those rituals are the way that they float their boat. More power to their boats, and more power to the things that float them!
Other people may be genuinely getting a lot from those things, and maybe something that lasts. It may be just the right thing for them at the time.
So I suppose what I am saying in short is that rituals are as good as they are.
Did I ever find them as powerful as meditation for transformation? No, but that's me. At the same time, if there were a nice satsang around the corner that had an open kirtan every week or so, I'd probably be a regular attender. I could use an accessible situation where people get together and get good bhakti energy and community spirit up.
-David
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Oct 12 2005 3:39:00 PM |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2005 : 4:41:58 PM
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Hi brauniver,
Doing rituals, pujas, deity worship, chanting all of them come under a different path called Bhakthi Yoga. AYP falls into Raja Yoga or ashtanga yoga classification.
The aim in bhakthi yoga is to develop a deep love for god and long for him intensely. All these rituals and pujas are intended to develop such a bhakthi/love towards god. The idea there is that you detach yourself from material things by attaching to god. In bhakthi yoga they often suggest that you practice seeing god in whatever you do; whatever you do, do for god. You surrender to god and whatever you do, you dont want anything for selfish use but only for god. That is what essentially ISKCON and other bhakti yoga paths are. At the same time they do chanting which is similar like meditation but done aloud.
I personally dont see much benifit of conditioning the mind using such rituals. It is more like trying to acheive liberation thru intellect. I think the major progress in bhakthi yoga path happens because of chanting. The idea of surrendering to god is good though because it reduces your ego.
I too prefer meditation to these rituals and even to chanting
-Near
This World is a great gymnasium where we have come to make ourselves strong - Vivekananda |
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lucidinterval1
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2005 : 7:33:39 PM
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Hello Oliver,
Sure, some rituals could be classified as going through the motions. I was raised Catholic, I am pretty aware of rituals.
I actually believe that potentially there can be some great benefit under the proper circumstances. What you have here is a group dynamic where everyone is feeding off of the positive vibrations and amplifying them. This can create some pretty agressive ecstatic conductivity.
I was once in Belgium and looked up a local ashram. I paid them a visit and asked them if they had group meditation sessions that I could participate in. They told me to come back later in the evening and attend a group chanting session. I came back and participated as much as I could (they were chanting in some foreign language that I couldn't understand. This went on for about an hour and when it was over, I was buzzing from head to toe with kundalini energy. I went back to my apartment and had a really deep and silent meditation. It was obvious to me that the chanting session was the contributing factor. I'm sure that there was a bhakti type of reaction, but at the same time, I feel that the vibrations in that room resonated within me and allowed me to take them to my meditation.
So I believe that rituals have a place for helping us on our path if we are sincere about them in our heart and we are not just going through the motions.
Paul |
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brauniver
Switzerland
42 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2005 : 5:17:59 PM
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quote:
Well, look at the people who have been there for some time. Are they enlightened? Probably not --- but maybe more than they were.
I think that none of them is enlightet, but I cant know that. I just know that Im not.  But you are right, probably is everybody one step closer.
quote:
All these rituals and pujas are intended to develop such a bhakthi/love towards god.
Yes they are. But I think for western people its not a really direct way. Its a very foreign tradition the indian culture. "Our Guru" is speaking for 1 hour sankrit textes by heart. Thats great, yes! But nobody understand anything.
I always had the desire to go to india and live there for Years in a ashram. ( I think I just read to many yoga books and build up a lot of dreams......
The experience of living in the sivananda ashram in Germany for several month brought my interest back to my own culture and traditions. Why go to india? What shall I do there? Find a guru and get enlighted? That was the dream. But now Im a step closer on earth. Dont understand me in a wrong way. It is a very nice time here, the people are friendly, the "energy" is good and I could learn a lot about Yoga. Theres is no question about that. But Its just one side.
We have to live with a lot of "Yoga rules". ( No garlic, ail, meat of course, only spiritual music (mantras), sometimes dresscode, daily satsang and a lot more) but Im nomore shure if this lifestyle is the best for everyone. People are so different.
So Im more and more interested in a really pragmatic way of yoga. Western style in a sens - like the one that Yogani and other good souls teach.
Perhaps it would be better insteat of living in a ashram to go to england (or america of course ) to learn english. Then I could write in english forums and others could understand what Im really talking about. I have to think..
These were just some thoughts......
Its nice to talk with you.
oliver
Btw: @ david: Khechari is working better and better
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Frank-in-SanDiego
USA
363 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2005 : 1:54:07 PM
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Hari Om
~~~~~
Hello Mumuksu ( seeker of moksha)
I read Oliver's post on living at the ashram and his experience
with rituals. These rituals go by puja, homan and havan. They also go under the mainstay of Yajna ( from "yaj" to sacrifice).
The connection with these are pointed out in the Bhagavad-gita ( Chapt 3, on Actions). Its pointed out by Keshava that "through yajna you sustain the gods and those gods will sustain you. By sustaining each other you will attain the highest good" ;
The 'gods'of the Veda are deva and various laws of nature we experience and exercise daily without being much aware of them, yet are on every level of life, material-physical, emotional, mental, etc.
These homam/puja have various levels of influence, both on the sadhu and on the environment - they are considered very uplifting and an important part of Dharma (literally from dhr or "that which upholds" or "what holds together").
Some people may experience something during or after these pujas ( or not at all). Yet overall , they are of satvic nature and are designed for the evolution of the individual. The best thing is to just not get caught up in "did something happen?" - just be innocent and that is it.
The key to the success is the Pujari or the person performing the Yajna (pronounced Yag-ya). AS his level of consciousness and purity (sattva) is of great influence - to operate from a very subtle level of consciousness ( Rta or "truth") influences the whole experience.
The more evolved the Pundit, the more effect on those at the puja and in the environment. Hence , the various Pundits are typically Brahmins, trained in this and from the family line to be most effective in the success of Yajya.
Are these things of value? - I am of the opinion that they are, as they are pointed out in the Vedas as actions to pursue. According to many a rishi Yagya is a process of bringing the individual into harmony with the stream of evolution and bring favor of all the forces that power this grand universe.
What we need to guard ourselves from is "mood making" - that this or that yajya did this or that and I am now so "scrubbed and clean" from this - we delude ourselves and keep ourselves bound once more to ignorance. Innocence here is a virtue.
Do I practice yagya? yes. On two levels:
- the ceremonial part ( I have them performed for me in India; and go to our local temple)
- the daily part - meditation is Yajya - when one transcends, one "gives up" all actions and a surrender happens w/o effort.This is Yajya.
The "Ceremonial part" is the part we can see, smell(incense) taste (Prasad), etc. The "meditation part" is the personal/subjective part that gets one aligned with these laws of nature, and ultimate surrender ( yajya )to the Self.
The SELF realizes the SELF by its SELF , so says the Upanishads.
Meditation creates the condition for this to happen.
Oliver, enjoy your pujas, only good can come from them!
Om Purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnam-udacyate
Purnasya purnam-adaya purnam evavasisyate
"the Whole (Brahman) is all THAT. The Whole is all This. The Whole was born of the Whole. Taking the Whole from the whole, what remains is the Whole"
Regards and pranams
Frank in San Diego
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2006 : 02:39:54 AM
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I was wondering about 'havans', 'homas' and 'yagyas'. A couple of years ago I had to move from a strong contempt for such things to being an active practitioner of the agnihotra havan in following the school of yoga that I was. Being compelled to do it, I researched what I could on the net (probably to find some rationalisation for my activity), and was surprised to find a number of people all over the world such dedicated practitioners ( http://www.agnihotra.org/.
However, when I read about their 'five-fold path' etc, I found they were abbreviated yama-niyamas.
Did I discover any effect of the havans? I did the havan (agnihotra is a very short, individual havan, requiring the sunrise and sunset seconds to be honoured)only once a week, breaking even that in-between. Despite my disapproval of it, I can say I found it grounding. Can't say anything else for sure, except that I used the ashes for my plants, and they seemed quite happy.
But yes, I did find a difference in the 'havans' conducted in households by traditional 'priests' and the ones done by students of yoga. (Students of yoga are supposed to be doing it for the benefit of mankind and not ask for 'boons' and worldly goodies for themselves.)
All I know is that a particular deity (an energy in charge of an aspect of the world) is invoked, the seed of which lies in the vibrations of the manta chanted (why then are a score or more things burnt? why is their role?). How are yagyas part of yoga? (a lot of yogis here practice this)
I'm very interested if anyone has anything to say about yagas and homas. |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2006 : 04:50:05 AM
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I would think that being a farmer, tending children, or teaching self defense classes can all yield spiritual development. Ultimately, what we observe doesn't change, just the perspective we take.
Being around my nieces and nephews almost feels like magic. They have such ungaurded smiles. I feel, being able to recognize this allows me to be a great uncle, which means, 'connected with my higher self'.
Or, whenever I am in a conversation with someone and I observe my mind resisting it, perhaps because I already know what they or saying or I don't care to listen at that moment, there is an ability to hyper-focus. I stop hearing words and start taking in the moment with my whole body. You can feel the words vibrating off of your face. Looking back at your is yourself.
Of course, I am not taking away from the effectiveness of ritual or traditional activities, as they are great methods for bringing the mind into focus, and often bringing into focus in a specific way.
Anyway, just thoughts. I am one who feels liberated by the scenario of not having someone tell me how it 'should' be done. If I make my goal only to be as completely honest with myself as I can, my body does ALL the work.
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2006 : 07:38:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyman
I would think that being a farmer, tending children, or teaching self defense classes can all yield spiritual development.
that is true Kyman... It is an internal process not external after all. Though I am trying to find out what yagnas are about, not promoting rituals, since I don't follow rituals myself. However, I like to keep the spirit of inquiry on either way. One of the ways to understand what's happening around you. Would still like to know what homas are all about and why yogis practise them. |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2006 : 4:19:12 PM
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Absolutely. It is natural to wonder if whether or not these activities are effective, but one must honestly ask themselves, why were they practiced to begin with? There's a good reason, I'm sure.
I think because everyone's physiology is different, some techniques or practices will work more or less for others. It is good to know of the techniques not only to find out for one's self, but in case of the chance to pass along useful information to a fellow yogi.
Cheers. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2006 : 6:08:08 PM
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I imagine that the more purified you are, and the higher your levels of energy are, the more effective real rituals are. I don't know if there are any real rituals (ones which actually help you progress), but I can imagine that with enough knowledge of the human body and the enlightenment process such things could be formulated.
It's kind of like how if someone puts their tongue into their nasal pharynx without ever having done other yoga practices...well, they won't notice anything. They'll be like, "So what? This is supposed to do something? All that it's doing to me is making me bored!" But if they have been working at yoga for a while, they will pick up on how and why kechari is so great. I suspect it's the same thing with certain rituals. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2006 : 10:58:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
It's kind of like how if someone puts their tongue into their nasal pharynx without ever having done other yoga practices...well, they won't notice anything. They'll be like, "So what? This is supposed to do something? All that it's doing to me is making me bored!" But if they have been working at yoga for a while, they will pick up on how and why kechari is so great. I suspect it's the same thing with certain rituals.
You got something there Scott. Never thought of rituals that way. But you can pick up a book or come here and read about what kecheri's supposed to do, and how you get there, right? |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2006 : 11:42:48 AM
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What I've read about what kechari does, versus the actual experiences I've gotten from it, are totally different things. I mean it's somewhat the same, but not having the experience and just hearing about it doesn't compare. I suspect that when I write what happens to me internally during kechari, a person who hasn't done kechari will hardly understand what it's like. So reading about what it's supposed to do doesn't really suffice. Also, experiences may be different for each person.
I guess my whole point was: there may be something to rituals, even if we experience nothing from them. It could be likened to deep meditation, where sometimes it's really boring and seems like nothing is being done, or we pass out and feel that we've wasted a time...when really these are the times that perhaps the most inner work is being accomplished. Perhaps certain rituals actually do cleanse us.
I don't believe in any rituals. Just keeping an open mind to the possibility. I don't have much experience with these sorts of things. I'm sure you have much more, Sadhak. For instance...I didn't even know what "homas" or "yagnas" even were! |
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Neesha
215 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2006 : 2:19:53 PM
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quote:
But Im not sure how to think about. Is it really so powerful to celebrate rituals like that? Some people really live just for this events and they often talk about how strong the cleaning process were. Perhaps Im just not at this level to realize how important rituals are. For me its nice to see and participate but I cant believe that you get "enlighted" with this pratices.
Rituals are a form of devotion to God that is practiced by every religion in some form or another.
Hey next time just clear your mind don't think about anything and just listen to the pundit,priest while these things are going on
I usually feel the effect when i am standing most times.....
Here is not the place to ask the significance of rituals, you have to ask the people in societies the reason why they perform rituals....as you reach the 100th person the answer would revolve around common reasons.......
Why did you join or choose to live in the Yoga Ashram?
At 3 years of age rituals are one of reasons my shakti was maintained throughout these years........performance of yagna and all the other riutals are not necessarily compulsory for a Hindu family, but we did it, and indeed practiced up till today.....in our society
For every ritual I sat at as a very young child I have an experience
to tell of......I was already communicating with the spirit at age 5years but I didn't know that then....
For me ......now that I progressed and still progressing I don't necessarily have to do rituals........but rituals are 1000% stronger more powerful, divine, knowledge bearing........., once done correctly,properly it is also an easy way to progress faster, develop intuition and start learning from intuition.........
It is through rituals I am understanding so much without having to read an entire books,neither research the internet.......thoroughly
Mantras are sacred formulae that stimulates and initiates the devotees and allow them to progress.......accordingly
I know someone doing all the above (20yrs)and never progressing to anything
because of his negative ego......and wrong doings
yet I have seen the effect mantras on girls/ guys with dewataas ......and normal persons.........
If you look at yourself a simple example like brushing your teeth every morning,cleansing your body is like a ritual....because we do it every day.....
when one look at hawan as feeding God and sustaining him/her eventually the God will sustain you....this is the effect of hawan...it might take some time to actually feel anything
Hence the reason why I do Hawan for Mother Kali every week
I feel like a million dollars after doing it .......so peaceful...so full of love.....so everything
If i had a choice to redo my life I would definitely live in an ashram.........and love to be present for any kind of rituals
you are lucky indeed.
quote:
Is it just an old tradition we try to keep alive or are these practices really so important?
At the level I was at, I only needed to be initiated by a guru......
But many people in trinidad do a yearly pujas for general protection and well being....
My puja was compulsory.....for protection at the beginning and now I progressed so much no harm can come to me now....
(I have been through alot)
the answers to your questions would vary because of the diversity of the hindu religion.......and other religions and people in general
basically you do a ritual you invite God in whatever form into your life ,home and so forth.........
From experience if you blindfolded me and caried me into strangers homes ......I would immediately be able to tell you if that property perform rituals(puja) and has protection and if they invite the Gods in general to their homes.......I did it already and it worked.....they had performed puja some months ago and the vibrations were still there....
You love God, God love you.......
In case you know already or don't ...the scriptures have rituals for everything from diseases .....illness, worries,moving objects,.........etc
Rituals worked for me.......I had another dark soul attracted/sent to me ....and rituals...time and lots of prayers from alot of people
sucessfully sent it to the heavens...and made me stronger........I needed help from above there is no way I could have done it on my own.
So you see from evil interventions from an unknown source forced me to find a guru........perform rituals.........calm down this brain of mine and live a better life ........
Also rituals are complusory for Ashrams.....when you invite the Gods some want them to stay ....you nourish them and they nourish you...
For me hawan offering in the Ashram is more powerful anywhere else because it is done in groups.
And there you go a little explanation of rituals
Namaste
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2006 : 2:43:09 PM
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Hi Nsantoo,
When you talk of rituals and people ask if they work, your experience of the vibrations left behind are valid.In India wherever saints, yogis etc have meditated or performed pujas the vibrations left behind can still be felt.When I visited Shirdi I had to suffer(can I have some more PLEASE LOL) 1.5 hrs of puja as I bathed in the energies from Sai Baba's tomb.My guru's mother asked the priests to drape a cloth over his statue but instead they rubbed it over his tomb and mopped the Rose water before returning.She gave it to me and I again had to suffer(LOL) his energies as we meditated outside the temple.I still have the cloth,(it's about 4 mtrs x 2 mtrs)green with gold inlay stored away.Maybe I should get it out and see what vibrations are left in it now.Every single temple we went in I felt the energies but as Scott said many could not feel them as they were not sensitive to them.
L&L
Dave |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
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Rituals - Puja - Homa ........
