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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 1:35:21 PM
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This is further clarification of my reply to yogibear in this thread: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2821
A beginning meditator grapples with the distractions of the physical body. It gets tired of sitting, it craves action and activity. It's hungry, it's sleepy, its shoulder hurts, it craves sex. These signals and feelings are quite distracting, all the more so because until one has done a good bit of meditation, they are WHAT WE THINK WE ARE. It's a lot easier to disregard external things than it is to disregard that which we think we are! But as you gain experience in meditation, you pierce through all that and cease to identify with these signals and feelings. A sort of wedge is driven, by virtue of clear witnessing, between Who We Are and these things. And they fall away into irrelevance along with all the other random background chatter.
So where does the meditator transfer his/her sense of identity? To the energy of the body. The sense of vibrant aliveness. The breathing, the energy waves that emanate from letting go. For a while, the meditator is very smug, thinking s/he has found the REAL self. But after a while, a wedge is driven there as well. These things can be witnessed, and so they are not THE witness. So they cease to distract us or to draw us into a feeling of identity and fall away into irrelevance along with all the other random background chatter.
The mind feels proud of its awareness. It starts excitedly philosophizing (and there's a danger of quitting practice at that point, because the mind becomes convinced that it now fully groks this whole spiritual thing). And our thoughts, now unfettered by the issues of body and energy, seem to become the seat of our identity. I AM this narrative playing out in my mind! But then, hopefully and god willing, one notices that even the most lofty spiritual thoughts are just thoughts, and they, too, can be witnessed. And anything that can be witnessed is not the self, because the self is what does the witnessing! So thoughts fall away into irrelevance along with all the other random background chatter.
And that letting go brings a tremendous feeling of exhilaration and bliss, and that bliss becomes increasingly available to you. It's sort of like one of those mouse experiments, where a mouse pressing a certain button gets zapped with pleasure electrodes in his brain. It quickly learns how to press the button and enjoy the result. The bliss doesn't seem external. It's WHAT I AM. The mouse and the meditator believe they ARE bliss (when the bliss goes away they pine for more, feeling that they've been lessened by its absence).
But same thing. The bliss is random background chatter, too. it was easier to detach one's identification from the pains and whinings of the body back in step 1- the "bad cop!" - than to detach from this "good cop". Much stickier. And, as with step 1, 2, and 3, it's not about ignoring or denying, it's about one's witness eventually (without any effort from our mind...it simply happens as you practice) driving a wedge, between Who You Are and this thing you are identifying yourself with.
You've heard of the koshas? If not, read Patanjali (I love this translation: http://product.half.ebay.com/Yoga-P...oQQprZ517229 ). This is what the koshas are all about (a series of sheaths that you unwittingly deem your defining boundaries), and this is what detachment is all about (not suppression, but losing the habit of identifying with experiences).
The trick is to cultivate a knee jerk reaction in yourself to letting go. More. More. More. All the way. Even more. No matter what comes (even, to use Yogani's example, Jesus Christ showing up to offer you a ride in his coach), you blithely let go. Through rain, hail, bliss, profound observations, or every cell in your body quaking in titanic orgasm....just smile and let it happen AROUND you rather than capture you. Let it all be background chatter. It's all just "experience", it's not an end point. Come back to mantra. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 28 2007 3:01:01 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 6:36:32 PM
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Hi Jim:
A nice piece of self-inquiry.
And from that comes ... outpouring divine love!
The eternal divine paradox. 
The guru is in you. |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 6:41:22 PM
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quote:
The trick is to cultivate a knee jerk reaction in yourself to letting go. More. More. More. All the way. Even more. No matter what comes (even, to use Yogani's example, Jesus Christ showing up to offer you a ride in his coach), you blithely let go. Through rain, hail, bliss, profound observations, or every cell in your body quaking in titanic orgasm....just smile and let it happen AROUND you rather than capture you. Let it all be background chatter. It's all just "experience", it's not an end point. Come back to mantra.
HI Jim/Yogani
Things have really moved on for me lately and I have had an opening which I would like to share with you all. I have been putting off posting this for some time now I think I have been waiting for the crunch to come and the bubble to burst because it all seems to good to be true, but it hasn’t so here goes.
For some time now about a year I think I have been going through a stressful time with lots of worries and concerns over a matter to do with my personal situation and security for the future. Now I was sitting in the garden a couple of months ago just thinking about things in general feeling a bit low and sorry for myself and then I sort of gave up and suddenly out of the blue something happened, its hard to explain but it was almost like a physical movement in my brain and everything changed.
It was somehow like an AHA moment and do you know what everything then seemed so ridiculous… especially me… that I just laughed out loud, its so hard to explain but now I can achieve that small almost physical movement in my brain which I now realise is in fact letting go, surrendering to what is, everything has become good and right and the amazing thing is that once I managed to let go within a week everything that had been bothering me was resolved like magic, not just in my perception of the matter but in real physical terms and with no input from me at all.
I have been in this place for at least two months now everything is good even two recent major family crisis have failed to break the spell. At the moment this is really working for me. Its hard to explain to anyone how to get there I think the more people try the harder it becomes the secret in my opinion is simplicity… don’t try… just do the practices and in time it will just happen.
Thank you AYP 
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Edited by - Richard on Sep 27 2007 6:51:07 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 9:42:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
And from that comes ... outpouring divine love!
I think even that self-identification is an illusion...just another layer of onion.
When I "use" or "direct" or "outpour" divine love with the attitude that it's coming from me, or "is" me, it turns out to be finite and I feel depleted by its transmission. I'm not depleted, however, if I get out of the way and let myself serve as a mere dumb transformer and radiator of this energy...without owning it, without wielding it...without doing anything but allowing my openness (my bandwidth, if you will) to be used, for whatever unfathomable purpose, by What Is.
So even that is not me. And the notion that I'm wielding a cosmic love wand, making the world better via my spiritual grandeur and specialness is the temptation-to-identify which must be let go of for THIS experience.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 27 2007 9:50:45 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 10:59:18 PM
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Hi Jim 
I like that "wielding a cosmic love wand". That's good!
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Edited by - Balance on Sep 27 2007 11:26:52 PM |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 11:05:43 PM
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The ten thousands things can bring one to tears.
Hey Richard,
I like to call these profound, abrupt, and resolute transformations miracles of healing. Your vision changes, and the world is remade. Go deeper into pure being and the body reflects stillness, silence, peace. The body fills its sail with the breath of life. Makes for a stable foundation, in which you can make clear choices that are based on reality as it is at the moment. With an established meditative state, you steer much more skillfully into the higher orders. The now of our awareness is never confused.
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Edited by - Kyman on Sep 27 2007 11:26:52 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2007 : 11:57:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
quote:
Originally posted by yogani
And from that comes ... outpouring divine love!
I think even that self-identification is an illusion...just another layer of onion.
Hi Jim:
Outpouring divine love and self-identification cannot occur precisely in the same place. One excludes the other. This is the nature of non-duality. It is how we can have all of this going on, and at the same time nothing going on.
The paradox of stillness in action.
You are right. Outpouring divine love cannot be wielded. It can only be allowed. It is the destination of our practices. A natural becoming, not an attainment. Flowers do not attain. They just bloom, filling the air with sweet fragrance and love.
The guru is in you.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 01:09:04 AM
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Yogani, thanks for the inspiring analogy (re: flowers). BTW I'm quite sure I didn't hit my destination yet. As you know (and write), we all unfold in different ways. The outpouring divine love thing came early, though for others it may come last. Lots of other stuff is still to come for me. Iv'e still got plenty of fear, anger, separation...even road rage (and my subconscious is a vast cesspool). None of that stuff disappears, it all just grows increasingly transparent and impotent. But for me it's still semi-opaque! And the outpouring love is more .5/3 than 24/7....but I'm in no hurry.
Richard, yeah, you're so right. It's simple simple simple. This is one reason this forum has always worried me...Yogani wrote a simple, efficacious method, and in one sense, this forum serves to let practitioners join together to endlessly complicate it! :) The mind wants to fill in lots of details, and doggedly pursues the innate conviction that there's some CONCEPT that will fill the gap. In fact, that's why I've made myself annoying by repeatedly urging (in various guises) just what you're saying: simplicity. I have to keep reminding myself, too! I keep finding (over and over!) ways in which I've gone on major multi-month detours because of presumptions and assumptions I'd overlaid onto my practice. It's ALL overlays; beneath each one are ten more. In fact (here's a trippy truth for you) we'd all be enlightened in this very moment if we weren't working extraordinarily tenaciously to conceptually misroute ourselves in ten thousand ways from What Is. Even as you read this, even if it rings true, your mind fishes around for a conceptual tack to take. And that's just more overlaying. Feeding the delusion.
Everything, without exception, that we deem ourselves and our world to be is an overlay. Grappling with that is endless, and only makes it worse! There's no leg to stand on, so....may as well just let go entirely. We won't fall and crash. We'll float. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 28 2007 01:30:39 AM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 07:37:47 AM
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Richard, how absolutely wonderful to hear about your transformation!
"It was somehow like an AHA moment and do you know what everything then seemed so ridiculous… especially me… that I just laughed out loud..."
Oh, those Buddha laughs! Lovely! You as a personality is truly ridiculous! So am "I". And "Jim"... LOL!  Totally fake! But we take it soooo seriously and get offended, and position ourselves in relation to each other and do other silly things like that...
But what that lovely personality Jim is writing about the tricks of the mind is so true! I heard someone describe it like the ego becomes more and more subtle in its cunning way to take control again and personalize things: It's as hard to detect as a needle in an overly ripe banana! Just impossible to feel when it's stuck in there!
"Outpouring divine love and self-identification cannot not occur precisely in the same place. One excludes the other."
Yes, the self-concideration is what closes me down. Always. Any type of thought that directly or indirectly concerns ME as a person, as a separate entity. Otherwise there's just that flow of love. |
Edited by - emc on Sep 28 2007 07:39:36 AM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 11:29:12 AM
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Hi Yogani
Would you elaborate on the statement:
"Outpouring divine love and self-identification cannot not occur precisely in the same place. One excludes the other."
Does this say that outpouring divine love and self-identification each exclude and include?
Maybe I'm asking for the unexplainable to be explained, but perhaps you could put a little more light on this one.
Thanks |
Edited by - Balance on Sep 28 2007 11:44:24 AM |
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 11:53:11 AM
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Ken Wilber says that collapsing information, or reducing a bundle of relative forms into one level, hides the information contained in that level. Even though everything is the same, there is a natural hierarchy to life where things have a place.
Though it is good to reduce or simplify, it is also worth it to expound.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 12:40:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyman
Ken Wilber says that collapsing information, or reducing a bundle of relative forms into one level, hides the information contained in that level. Even though everything is the same, there is a natural hierarchy to life where things have a place.
Though it is good to reduce or simplify, it is also worth it to expound.
True in the realm of information. But this stuff has nothing to do with information. It's not a matter of gathering, it's about dissolving. Until you know that with heart and soul, you'll keep searching in the realm of information, which means lots of doing rather than letting....lots of adding on rather than allowing to be chipped away.
But that's ok, because if you don't do tons of that, you'll never come to the requisite deep exhausted conviction that it's all a dead end - that the golden key doesn't exist out there to find and grab, no matter how much you learn, understand, acquire, and otherwise add on.
The big question is this: how many moves ahead will you concede that checkmate? Must the futility be absolutely front and center and illuminated with klieg lights? Do you need to run down an infinite number of cul-de-sacs - just another version of the same ridiculous dog track "non-spiritual" people spend their lives unceasingly looping through? Or can you smell the inevitable before the 10 billlionth iteration?
When Yogani and others talk about people with spiritual gifts (be it from work in previous lifetimes or whatever), that's the difference. Those people spot the futility a tad earlier in the process. And, seeing no alternative, they let go utterly. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 28 2007 12:49:59 PM |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 12:52:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Balance
Hi Yogani
Would you elaborate on the statement:
"Outpouring divine love and self-identification cannot not occur precisely in the same place. One excludes the other."
Does this say that outpouring divine love and self-identification are mutually exclusive as well as mutually inclusive?
Maybe I'm asking for the unexplainable to be explained, but perhaps you could put a little more light on this one.
Thanks
Hi Balance:
It is a matter of how consciousness is flowing at any point in time. Self-identification is mind identifying itself as consciousness and many other things, as Jim points out in the first post above. Outpouring divine love is consciousness illuminating mind and action, which is a different kind of flow of consciousness, finding its root in expanding inner silence, which gradually becomes dynamic. Each kind of flow of consciousness produces a different point of view as perceived by the individual.
Can both of these be happening in the same instant? I don't think so. It can be flowing back and forth over time (sometimes in a flash) as we are going through the long process of purification and opening, as many of us have noticed.
To bring it closer to everyday living, the same principle can be found in the questions, "Can we be taking while we are giving?" or "Can we be giving while we are taking?" No, we can't. But we can certainly receive while we are giving. This is the principle of giving and receiving (multiplied), also found in "Seek first the kingdom of heaven and all will be added..."
It may seem to be a mixed bag at times, but there is a line in there somewhere, and both of these modes of functioning cannot be found on the same side of that line at the same time. That is the point I was trying to make.
Fortunately, our practices bring us along in the direction of opening without too much fanfare, unless of course, we insist on fanfare. Then it is a matter of easily favoring the practice over the experience. The rest of the time (outside practices) we are naturally integrating as we go about the normal business of life, and this is where we notice a gradual shift in our point of view occurring, on balance (there are many ups and downs along the way).
As for where self-inquiry fits in, this is something we may be drawn to as we have more inner silence available in daily activity. It can't be forced or constructed, though many do try. If we are regular in our practices, in time we can't help but begin to notice "what is," and are drawn to inquire quite naturally.
Self-inquiry is closely related to meditation, in that we will find ourselves consistently making choices that are inclined toward expanding our inner silence. With the awakening of ecstatic conductivity, outpouring divine love will be coming along, which is also the process of samyama (the cultivation of stillness in action). This last stage is seldom recognized by students who adhere (cling?) to a non-dual philosophy, which is kind of impractical. There definitely is life after (and during!) the obliteration of the identification of the mind. And what a life it is.
Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Kyman
530 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 1:06:27 PM
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I'm all about not searching, and just being. Playing dumb in order to be dumbfounded is more like masturbating. But great minds go around and around, knowing ahead what's coming, but stay on the journey for those still on the path. So you jump on the highway of information to travel with others, while a part of you knows you aren't going anywhere. If we are already enlightened, there is no obstacle to enlightenment, so right now we are all pulling back layers. How effortless this movement into order is depends on our expectations about the process, and resulting projections.
Some people don't know they aren't going anywhere, or doing anything, some know but play dumb so they can try to relive an awakening, some people know and observe the mind's awakening process as within their own establishment/reality. Integral yoga is very interesting, and I think that is what we do on AYP. This place is a mixture of paths, perspectives, information super highways.
If you feel as you do about the checkmate, and you are passionate about that, I think you're greatest service would be to speak on behalf of it. Your opinion/action/conviction, along with everyone else's, is the ball rolling. I wouldn't worry about being annoying, and aside from venomous exchanges, I love a good ol' fight. Debate, boxing, whatever, as long as everyone is following their heart with respect to the intentions of everyone else.
Here's to good sportsmanship, and a motivating jab! |
Edited by - Kyman on Sep 28 2007 1:14:18 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 1:57:37 PM
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Thanks Yogani
Yes, I've noticed the naturaleness of self-inquiry. Forcing enquiry seemed to be more forcing and less enquiry. Though I must say that in discovering my own approach to inquiry (by weeding through other's methods and through trial and error) and letting it unfold, I have found it helps cultivate inner-silence along with all the acceptance, letting go and etc.
And yes, no fanfare please! I don't need to be side-tracked
I think I was confused by your use of a double negative which may have been a writing mistake: "cannot not occur".
Thanks for clarifying.
Balance |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 2:20:55 PM
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Oh, and I see what you mean about giving and receiving.
Thanks again |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 2:54:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Balance
I think I was confused by your use of a double negative which may have been a writing mistake: "cannot not occur".
Sorry about that. It has been corrected.
TGIIY |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 2:57:53 PM
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Ha haha!
I was wondering! You're usually quite clear and straight-forward. I thought you were going Zen on us! |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 3:04:06 PM
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Oh, Yogani can go Zen allright. I could show you a few emails I still can't come close to unwinding. Which delights me, because it shows me there's lots more mud to wipe off my windows. And with AYP, the wiping's so enjoyable! Hey, that can be the new tagline....
As for life after obliterating identification with mind, I love Sailor Bob as an example. Not just in terms of his teachings (which are wonderfully clear), but the way he goes about things (which you can get a feel from by reading through his site, other people's reports, etc). Just a bloke....but no suffering, and "sometimes thinking happens, and sometimes it doesn't".
an example of Sailor Bob's writing:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7/intro.html
a good photo! :
http://www.shiningthroughthemind.ne...Adamson.aspx
some of his videos to watch online:
http://www.sailorbob.net/home/Sailo...D-Video.html
his web site http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7
his book (with the amazing title of "What's Wrong with Right Now ...
Unless You THINK About It?"):
http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Wrong-R...p/0954779207 |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Sep 28 2007 3:08:07 PM |
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Richard
United Kingdom
857 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 3:10:26 PM
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quote:
Oh, Yogani can go Zen allright. I could show you a few emails I still can't come close to unwinding. Which delights me, because it shows me there's lots more mud to wipe off my windows. And with AYP, the wiping's so enjoyable! Hey, that can be the new tagline....
There is a lot more mud for all of us to wipe off our windows Jim. and yes great tag line the wiping is enjoyable I love it
Kyman said
quote:
like to call these profound, abrupt, and resolute transformations miracles of healing. Your vision changes, and the world is remade.
Yes there is pleasure and wonderment in everything you see, hear, touch, I am fortunate to live in an outstandingly beautiful part of the world. I have always enjoyed walking on the cliffs here but now the experience is awe inspiring, when you just let it BE all around you you sort of resonate with it..Wonderful, but still basically just another story eh.
Jim said
quote:
we'd all be enlightened in this very moment if we weren't working extraordinarily tenaciously to conceptually misroute ourselves in ten thousand ways from What Is. Even as you read this, even if it rings true, your mind fishes around for a conceptual tack to take. And that's just more overlaying. Feeding the delusion.
Everything, without exception, that we deem ourselves and our world to be is an overlay. Grappling with that is endless, and only makes it worse! There's no leg to stand on, so....may as well just let go entirely. We won't fall and crash. We'll float.
Yes Jim of course you are right its happening to me right now, right this minute writing this, but at the moment I am just enjoying everything around me I am even enjoying watching the mind fishing around and the fact that I have the ability to watch the mind fish around. Is this my ego talking? Yep I reckon so
EMC said
quote:
But what that lovely personality Jim is writing about the tricks of the mind is so true! I heard someone describe it like the ego becomes more and more subtle in its cunning way to take control again and personalize things: It's as hard to detect as a needle in an overly ripe banana! Just impossible to feel when it's stuck in there!
Yes ha ha its even getting me now see... I am talking about me... the ego is sneaky building itself all the time its fun to watch. There is a lot more work for me to do yet, no thats wrong its not for me that’s the old ego talking again I will just leave it up to those simple practices to do the work
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Edited by - Richard on Sep 28 2007 3:15:51 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2007 : 4:01:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Oh, Yogani can go Zen allright. I could show you a few emails I still can't come close to unwinding. Which delights me, because it shows me there's lots more mud to wipe off my windows. And with AYP, the wiping's so enjoyable! Hey, that can be the new tagline....
As for life after obliterating identification with mind, I love Sailor Bob as an example. Not just in terms of his teachings (which are wonderfully clear), but the way he goes about things (which you can get a feel from by reading through his site, other people's reports, etc). Just a bloke....but no suffering, and "sometimes thinking happens, and sometimes it doesn't".
an example of Sailor Bob's writing:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7/intro.html
a good photo! :
http://www.shiningthroughthemind.ne...Adamson.aspx
some of his videos to watch online:
http://www.sailorbob.net/home/Sailo...D-Video.html
his web site http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7
his book (with the amazing title of "What's Wrong with Right Now ...
Unless You THINK About It?"):
http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Wrong-R...p/0954779207
Love that 'Sailor' Bob! |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2007 : 2:25:41 PM
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quote:
Yes ha ha its even getting me now see... I am talking about me... the ego is sneaky building itself all the time its fun to watch. There is a lot more work for me to do yet, no thats wrong its not for me that’s the old ego talking again I will just leave it up to those simple practices to do the work
Now, that's that tango dance, in and out of NOW. It's a beautiful dance, and to me it doesn't matter anylonger if I fall down into ego, victimhood, self-concern, superiority or inferiority etc etc. It doesn't matter for how long periods of time that old habit is in control - there's a knowing it's doomed and it knows it too. There's a knowing it's a HABIT and has got nothing to do with me, whether I believe it for a while or not and suffer accordingly. All of those occasions are subject to the response of the biggest smile from deep within! Even a thought like "Oh no, I had it and now I've lost it, and I can't find it again!" is bringing a smile eventually. I surrender to that thought, allow that, I feel that emotion connected to it in the body and I watch myself feeling that. And guess what happens... |
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Eddie33
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2007 : 11:25:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
quote:
Originally posted by Kyman
Ken Wilber says that collapsing information, or reducing a bundle of relative forms into one level, hides the information contained in that level. Even though everything is the same, there is a natural hierarchy to life where things have a place.
Though it is good to reduce or simplify, it is also worth it to expound.
True in the realm of information. But this stuff has nothing to do with information. It's not a matter of gathering, it's about dissolving. Until you know that with heart and soul, you'll keep searching in the realm of information, which means lots of doing rather than letting....lots of adding on rather than allowing to be chipped away.
But that's ok, because if you don't do tons of that, you'll never come to the requisite deep exhausted conviction that it's all a dead end - that the golden key doesn't exist out there to find and grab, no matter how much you learn, understand, acquire, and otherwise add on.
The big question is this: how many moves ahead will you concede that checkmate? Must the futility be absolutely front and center and illuminated with klieg lights? Do you need to run down an infinite number of cul-de-sacs - just another version of the same ridiculous dog track "non-spiritual" people spend their lives unceasingly looping through? Or can you smell the inevitable before the 10 billlionth iteration?
When Yogani and others talk about people with spiritual gifts (be it from work in previous lifetimes or whatever), that's the difference. Those people spot the futility a tad earlier in the process. And, seeing no alternative, they let go utterly.
Perhaps the next step for you even is to drop this?
You still speak of dissolving and letting happen etcetera...
I not very sure in the least about this but maybe the conceptualizing is from a certain perspective very nessecary. For if there weren't concepts to begin with it would have been utterly impossible to cognize anything. So that means civilation would have never happened. the ego would have never been born. And on..
Perhaps philosophy, thinking, the mind and alll conceptualizations have there place and have to inevitably synthesize in, well, whatever the heck you wanna call it
So In my immature understanding I'd say that maybe we really can't supress the concepts at all. No matter how many times we urge people to just "let stuff happen" (although that has it's place also) we must inventually in some form or another let the concepts and philophisizing happen.
Just my two cents |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2007 : 3:53:25 PM
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I never suggested suppressing anything. Letting go isn't shoving away....it's just letting go!
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Eddie33
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2007 : 7:26:04 PM
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i know what your saying.
but from a different perspective can "just letting go" be seemed as not letting go. obviously you've achieved some type of spiritual goals. I'm just suggesting and this is not just for you but for maybe everyone who uses words like letting go and dissolving, that maybe these concepts still are keeping you in your chains so to speak.
It's kind of like how i have a friend of mine who continually tells me to "just be!". Now i'm not arguing the effect that his statement has on me. As a combination of the energy behind it and the meaning of it it has inevitably helped me "just let go".
But i think at a certain point the lines between holding on and letting go start to blur. I mean you can just keep on letting go because that very letting go from a certain perspective keeps you holding on. It can enforce a kind of seperation still...
I think a kind of higher understanding is needed in the realm of spirituality. It need to take the next step and start to include other subject matters instead of arragantly dismissing them as not being relevant to the spiritual search. One has to speculate as to why so many people who realize have to seclude themselves. It took Ramana Maharshi 12 years before he wanted to speak again. Ramana was also know to shy away from philsophical discussions. Why is this??
Also what part does spirituality have in making important political and ethical desicions? We can also say that the prgress of society can't be based on spirituality (the teachings) because to be spiritual you sometimes inevitably have to have some kind of faith and accept dogmatic thinking.
^ this is pretty much the reason why I'm here... I feel like i can go on forever. Time to shut up, lol
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At Ur Mercy
Netherlands
5 Posts |
Posted - Oct 27 2007 : 10:59:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Eddie33
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Also what part does spirituality have in making important political and ethical desicions? We can also say that the prgress of society can't be based on spirituality (the teachings) because to be spiritual you sometimes inevitably have to have some kind of faith and accept dogmatic thinking.
I think this 'to have some kind of faith and accept dogmatic thinking' has more to do with [institutionalized] religion and it's influence in politics than with 'real spirituality'. And right now, all over the world, these 'important political and ethical decisions' you talk about are often based on exactly the faith and dogmatic thinking you mention.
And indeed, the progress of society [whatever that means exactly ;)]and too, the status of society in itself lacks in all the places it shouldn't. That's were 'real spirituality', as for example taught here at AYP.org, comes around the corner - real spirituality cuts through all that bull**** based on 'the Holy Bible this, the Kuran that', 'Karl Marx this, Donald Trump that', 'Saddam Hussein there, G. W. Bush here'.
Spirituality based on dogma and faith is no real spirituality, it's [inst.] religion. Real spirituality comes from within, is based on direct experience. It doesn't separate, it brings together, because people try and eventually DO get over themselves. Then we are all one - how can we not be. That's progression of society. Progression on the plane of politics and ethics flow from that startpoint.
If we are going to be able to life on the moon, or the question 'which country can build the biggest atom bomb?', or the notion that I need a bigger car than my neighbour - is that progression of society? Are these things signs of right ethical conduct? Not in my egotistical opinion at least
Well, I think I went a little offtopic.. hope that's not too big of a problem for us all  |
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Bliss: Just More Crap to Get Through
