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 Tantra - A Holistic View of Spiritual Development
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nandhi

USA
362 Posts

Posted - Apr 11 2007 :  02:44:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit nandhi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
divine friends,

respects and love to you!


there is a map within.

from the tantric perspective- finite sexual orgasmic pleasure blossoms to the infinite cosmic pleasure. in the deeper end of experience, semen in or out does not matter as much as thoughts. scientifically speaking, the semen has no way of climbing up to the brain but thoughts and the energy field of nadis does. the prolonged vibrations allows us to use the map that enables us to to move the consciousness up from the muladhara, the root chakra to the third eye.

the map-

before the sexual orgasm which is described as the finite sexual orgasm, identify the route map by an even smaller orgasm. this orgasm is when we withhold while urinating. guide the little sparks above by the mulabandha, the mini-control system at the navel chakra and the thrid eye.



draw the map with actual meditation to understand by experience. each author writes from their unique experience and yet there is the science that reveals as grace in the surrender to receive with the intent as bhakthi. so the journey is sacred.

while working with the base chakra, the muladhara, first climb up above the navel to master the body. consciousness here enables the yogi to go beyond hunger, heat and cold. above, at this chakra, called the guru chakra, we are a step beyond the orgasm. the mulabandha lock is for the purpose of lifting to be released above the navel. connecting from the guru chakra, above the navel, into the third eye is a lot more at ease once we have found the seat above the muladhara. this is a yogic secret of the guru chakra- located above the navel that is not found in books. experience it.



when energies have been moved up above the sahasrara, the crown, the focus directed into the third eye dissolves the body/mind consciousness completely.

in the inward thought absorption in the third eye, we are awake to the three- the universe that we are (all that is), the oneness of all the living in the heart chakra ( life force)and our body shrine as the lingam, the spirit sheath. merged into the primal heart throb of life force, the ascending energies find union of the eternal - the finite as male and female together as whole in the perch above.

map drawn, the blossom is above.

matured with the knowing of the karmic root chakra and the worth of climbing above to that which is the witness and the wisdom guide to human thoughts, there are the tantric celibate sages living in the eternal joys each breath. ripe and no baggages carried, enriched in orgasmic life with harmony in the male and female principles of dynamic wholeness.


sacred joys and blessings of each to each!

aum



nandhi

emc

2072 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2007 :  4:54:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I have read this post many times, and something is calling me to read it, though I'm afraid I don't follow all of your beautiful poetic expressions, since English is not my first language. I still have a feeling this has got something to do with my question and present situation so I post my question here. I'd very much like to hear your (nandhis and others) thoughts about my state...

This post together with a description from the Osho-hippie I spoke to during Easter has made me wonder. He said in short that having sex from the different chakras could be described like this:

Exploding orgasms and ego monitored sex comes from:

2 chakra: normal, common, plain sex
and
3 chakra: sex + will - toys, games, BDSM etc

Implosion orgasms start at

4 chakra: heart orgasms, feeling of floating, may go on for hours and hours, still it is the ego experiencing a "cool" state

5 chakra: ego starts to dissolve and merging occurs occasionally

6 chakra: ego has fully dissolved, full merging

7 chakra: Crown opening and off you go in fireworks!


That was the "map" he gave me, and I could totally relate to it and I believe there are similarities to what nandhi describes here. I feel now that it is quite uninteresting with exploding orgasms and all which belongs to sexuality from 2nd and 3rd chakra. I have difficulties even getting my old normal orgasms. My body does not react as is used to, I am not satisfied, I feel empty and I get heavily depressed afterwards. Tantra excersises with outer stimulation recommended in AYP (counting method) is quite worthless, because I go over the threshold so quick and is left with a long nose.

If I use only the PC-muscle to raise energy to orgasms I can direct it to 2,3 or even 4 chakra and get whole body exploding or imploding orgasms of some kind. However, orgasms happen very quickly - it is as if I am overloaded with energy - if I don't hold back a lot and I'd like to stay in front of orgasm. What happens then is I eventually go into deep breathing and go into a meditative state of peace. But there is no such thing as a sexual feeling or ecstatic feeling whatsoever. As soon as it leaves the second chakra it's more asexual energy. Strong but not very tainted by anything. In fact, I have never on my own experienced anything ecstatic although my kundalini is quite high (I think??? or am I thinking wrongly???). However, with my ex I had wonderful 4th chakra experiences and occasionally even glimpses of merging and I draw the conclusion I then must have peeped into the 5th chakra.

Right now though, it feels as if I am uncapable of having any kind of sexual activity at all. Is this a phase? I am oversensitive to physical stimulation and do not want "sex" at all. I don't have fantasies or think about sex. When I try to practice tantra I flip into a meditative asexual state by default. But I don't want to do too much tantra practices since I am on the verge of overload now and then, being busy with self-pacing. In addition, when I get close to a man with the right "level of energy" I can't help triggering sometimes - it is not even men I think are "attractive" or sexy, I just feel their energies and it starts (it feels as if it is heart energies that trigger, really). Quite embarrassing - only from a hug or even standing beside someone in the subway the energies can start flowing in my spine and I go into some sort of 4th chakra "tantra mode".

What is this? It feels like I am trapped in some kind of middle land where sexual energies are on full speed, but no sexual or ecstatic flavour has been added to it and orgasms feel like candy with paper on... Is that on the map????

I feel I have no sexlife and I don't understand how I can get one either if I don't find someone who's at the same level and is willing to practice tantra from 4th chakra and upwards, and is willing to self-pace most of the time due to energy overload...
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - May 01 2007 :  1:51:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I am truly worried about the silence in form of non-answers when I report on my more wierd experiences like this one. One hypothesis is that it is because noone has anything to say because you haven't experienced anything like it. It seems as if I walk a path that noone has walked before. We all have our own journey, but many experiences seem to be recognized by others. Mine does not seem to be recognized that well. I have always been an odd fellow... seem to be so even on this journey.

The only thing I have found that might explain some of my experiences is Ram Dass writing:

quote:
There's a sequence: You grow up very invested in the physical and the psychological. Then you feel the finiteness of those things. And then you awaken through some process only to realize you've been trapped. After that, there's a tendency to go into a kind of renunciative fervor to get into the place where you feel at one with the universe and spirit. That often creates what are called horny celibates--it's a certain kind of rejection of the physical/psychological plane.

But in a still later stage you realize that the aversion is keeping you from being free--and you want to be free, not just high. So you start to come back into who you are, passionate and nonattached. You are fully in life, joyfully participating--sex is a celebration. It's all wonderful, and at the same moment, it's all empty. That's a very evolved stage of spiritual maturation.


I might be in a phase where I reject the physical plane, I think, but without the horny part of it.

I wonder though, how long did it take for you to start feeling the inner ecstasy? What lead to that? What are the steps before, so to speak? Or is it so different for everyone that it can't be predicted, like the kechari steps?

I start wondering if I sort of have an illusion of recognizing myself in the explanation of "heart orgasms" and "merging". I may just make it up, and actually have not even gotten a kundalini awakening??? Is it possible I have misunderstood everything and that the energies I feel are not THE sexual energies you are talking about? As if I think I am in the house everybody is describing, finding my way in the rooms, but actually I am just in a little doll's house, nodding and recognizing the descriptions, but living in oblivion of the doll's house not being the real thing. And you all think it is so embarrassing to tell me straight out, so you rather keep silent! LOL! I always keep several working hypotheses active...

Edited by - emc on May 01 2007 1:56:56 PM
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yogani

USA
5192 Posts

Posted - May 01 2007 :  2:14:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi EMC:

It is a natural progression you are going through from erotic to ecstatic, moving ever forward/higher. Your feelings, including doubts, about it are normal too. Nothing is being lost, just continuously spreading out to greater and greater possibilities. The role of sex gradually expands to something beyond sex. You are in good company -- never alone.

The cultivation goes to much finer levels as the progression continues, so you are good on that too. Maybe genital sex continues to play a role -- maybe not. Or maybe not right now, and more later. Everyone is a little different in this.

The good news is that enlightenment is just as accessible to those who are sexually active as it is for celibates, assuming the corresponding means are known. That is the aim of the AYP approach to tantra, to cover the spectrum. We may find ourselves in different places on the spectrum at different times on our path, and each place has a tantric relationship to the over all process of human spiritual transformation.

That is why asanas, mudras, bandhas and pranayama have as significant a role in tantra as sexual activity does, though the line tends to get drawn between sex and everything else. But, in fact, it is a spectrum, a continuum we can address through various means, depending on our current sensitivities and level of purification.

The guru is in you.
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Christi

United Kingdom
4103 Posts

Posted - May 01 2007 :  2:50:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi EMC
quote:
In addition, when I get close to a man with the right "level of energy" I can't help triggering sometimes - it is not even men I think are "attractive" or sexy, I just feel their energies and it starts (it feels as if it is heart energies that trigger, really). Quite embarrassing - only from a hug or even standing beside someone in the subway the energies can start flowing in my spine and I go into some sort of 4th chakra "tantra mode".


This is normal and happens to all people once the heart chakra is open. When we are close to someone else with an open heart chakra, it causes the kundalini energy to rise (the feeling you mention getting in your spine) and the heart chakra to open. Then we become overwhelmed by a beautiful love- bliss feeling. It's fantastic and something to celebrate. Don't be embarrssed about it, remember that you will also be having this effect on others.
If you hug someone with an active heart chakra, the effect is even stronger. If you do not let go, but keep hugging them, then the energy will build up in both of you to ecstatic love bliss levels simply from the beautiful opening and merging of the energies of your heart chakras. But it's a good idea to get someone else's permission before doing this, as it is a little intimate .

If you synchronize your breathing whilst holding each other, the effect becomes even stronger, as the circular flow of prana around each of you will become synchronized and merge.

I wouldn't worry too much about sex... that's really second chakra stuff. Once the energies start merging from the fourth chakra up, that's when the real Lovemaking starts.

Thanks for bringing the topic up...

Love and Light

Christi
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - May 01 2007 :  3:39:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much Yogani for reassuring me everything is normal. No doll's house. Phew!

Christi, thank you also for your great reply! I feel so relieved! That is exactly the way it happens, with the heart chakra. I go into tears everytime it happens and people don't understand anything. Do you ever get used to that overwhelming feeling? I am so surprised that others don't cry. I think they either must be so used to it they don't care about it anymore and just smile, or they are not there yet and don't get that bliss experience??? I am not able to tell. Is both possible? Can someone have an open heart chakra like that without knowing it or feeling the energies?

But you wrote: "If you do not let go, but keep hugging them, then the energy will build up in both of you to ecstatic love bliss levels simply from the beautiful opening and merging of the energies of your heart chakras. But it's a good idea to get someone else's permission before doing this, as it is a little intimate."

THAT is what I mean gets very embarrassing when it happens just by standing beside someone on the tube! It is the same build up that happens as if I would hug someone for a longer time... No time to ask for permission then...

Yogani wrote: "It is a natural progression you are going through from erotic to ecstatic, moving ever forward/higher."

Is this gap between erotic and ecstatic going to last long? What is your experience, Christi? (or others, please chime in) And why is there a gap? And is the ecstatic state something you can control - shut on and off like you can with your erotic state - or is it just there?

"I wouldn't worry too much about sex... that's really second chakra stuff. Once the energies start merging from the fourth chakra up, that's when the real Lovemaking starts."

This confirms my feeling of it! Thank you! But some say that is a phase too, that you will go back and enjoy second chakra sex also. I don't understand that. It must then be a totally different experience anyway than the kind of sex you had from the start, in unawareness...



Edited by - emc on May 01 2007 3:46:01 PM
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Christi

United Kingdom
4103 Posts

Posted - May 02 2007 :  08:49:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi EMC,
quote:
That is exactly the way it happens, with the heart chakra. I go into tears every time it happens and people don't understand anything. Do you ever get used to that overwhelming feeling? I am so surprised that others don't cry. I think they either must be so used to it they don't care about it anymore and just smile, or they are not there yet and don't get that bliss experience??? I am not able to tell. Is both possible? Can someone have an open heart chakra like that without knowing it or feeling the energies?



Yes, it can be very overwhelming in the beginning, and it can reduce us to tears. When the heart opens it can open suppressed emotions which can make us cry. Or we can simply cry because of the beauty of the love. But it is a phase, and gradually we become better able to handle the energy without it overpowering us. I wouldn't say the energies calm down, if anything I would say that the love continues to expand, but we can handle it better. At least for a time... later there are greater heart openings, and the tears will flow again!
I don't think anyone could have an open heart chakra without feeling the energies... you would have to be pretty numb.

quote:
But you wrote: "If you do not let go, but keep hugging them, then the energy will build up in both of you to ecstatic love bliss levels simply from the beautiful opening and merging of the energies of your heart chakras. But it's a good idea to get someone else's permission before doing this, as it is a little intimate."

THAT is what I mean gets very embarrassing when it happens just by standing beside someone on the tube! It is the same build up that happens as if I would hug someone for a longer time... No time to ask for permission then...


Yes, if our heart opens because we are sitting near someone who is pouring out love, or standing on a bus near someone, then there is no need to ask for permission first. It is a natural process, and someone might get embarrassed if you even mention it (at the moment anyway... the world is changing).
Just to clarify... when I said it is good to get someone else's permission first I was talking about the act of embracing someone with the intention of opening your heart chakras together for the creation of love. It is an intimate (and very beautiful) act of love, and it is good that both people feel comfortable with what is happening. Of course with these things, you do not need to use words. Just a feeling is enough really. I feel it is the same as conventional lovemaking in this respect. People don't often say "hey, why don't we jump into bed together and spend the evening enjoying mad passionate tantric lovemaking?". Come to think of it, I don't think anyone has ever said that to me. Funny isn't it? Maybe the girls are a bit shy . But enough is communicated without words to know that both people know what is going to happen and feel comfortable about it. It is the same with divine lovemaking where both partners are actively involved and working together to raise the energies to divine levels.

Of course the process I described above was a pure form of heart chakra lovemaking with no sexual activity at all. Just pure love. It is also possible (and probably a lot more common) for people to adopt this as part of conventional sexual lovemaking. Then sexual energies are active in the second chakra and building up towards orgasm, and the heart chakra energy is merging and building up towards an over spilling of Divine love. But it is a more complex business as the tendency is to want to raise the energies to the highest possible vibration and purity, and we could find that the second chakra (sexual) energy is actually lowering the love vibration, and we naturally choose the higher over the lower. That means that at some point during conventional sexual lovemaking we could find that we naturally stop any sexual activity, and just keep the heart chakra connection going to allow the pure Love to expand into a bliss filled state of radiating ecstasy flowing back and forth between the two lovers.

There is another aspect, which is when the ajna chakra becomes active in both partners. Then there is an extra energy loop, which is created, looping around through the heart and ajna chakras of both people. It creates a very sweet ecstasy as the energy loop strengthens.

quote:
"I wouldn't worry too much about sex... that's really second chakra stuff. Once the energies start merging from the fourth chakra up, that's when the real Lovemaking starts."

This confirms my feeling of it! Thank you! But some say that is a phase too, that you will go back and enjoy second chakra sex also. I don't understand that. It must then be a totally different experience anyway than the kind of sex you had from the start, in unawareness...



Yes, things keep changing and we can jump around the chakras a bit. We can go back to sexual activity after a period of feeling that that vibration does not attract us. But as you say, it is a completely different kind of sex. We could no longer engage in sex for pure gratification, or enjoyment. We would only engage in it if it is part of the creation and expansion of Love and helps to serve our, and our partner's Divine purpose.

You've got me on my favourite topic now... Divine Lovemaking

Love and Light

Christi
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - May 02 2007 :  09:59:42 AM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi emc

We are lucky to have you here. Thanks for being so naked and earnest.
The way I understand your post, you already experience ecstatic states. The gap is not between "erotic" and "ecstatic". The gap is the screen that enables both. It is one energy, emc. Only the frequency differ. Just continue to listen......and when the energy rising in you compels you to move......see if you can be extra still right then. Don't move....don't move.....let it come instead. Accept the gap. (instead of "minding it" ). This was my first experience of the implotion (valley orgasm). It happened during meditation. And yes - when the energy eventually rises upwards, you can control it through the Ajna (third Eye). This is covered in Yoganis lessons.

Christi and Yogani have said it all.

It is the gaps that have helped me the most. The gap gave me no other alternative but to accept. To stop. To face myself. Not tomorrow - but NOW. Please remember that what you experience as "not being there yet" .....or being nowhere.....is potent with all of you. Your whole potential is right here....in this gap.

See it as being pregnant instead of being barren





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meenarashid

76 Posts

Posted - May 02 2007 :  6:23:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit meenarashid's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
** But as you say, it is a completely different kind of sex. We could no longer engage in sex for pure gratification, or enjoyment. We would only engage in it if it is part of the creation and expansion of Love and helps to serve our, and our partner's Divine purpose*


HOly thank you guys for these posts!! this is helpful to me
been with my husband for 12 years now and although very high energy just not interested in sex much and am also unfomfortable right now with the thought of getting pregnant
its not easy for him to deal with or me .. act so different now & feel so different
he says i took the *purple* pill and WOKE up some days thats really hard its like why?

then come across messages like this..

aum M
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Christi

United Kingdom
4103 Posts

Posted - May 03 2007 :  2:16:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Meena,

quote:
HOly thank you guys for these posts!! this is helpful to me
been with my husband for 12 years now and although very high energy just not interested in sex much and am also unfomfortable right now with the thought of getting pregnant
its not easy for him to deal with or me .. act so different now & feel so different
he says i took the *purple* pill and WOKE up some days thats really hard its like why?

then come across messages like this..


Thanks for your very honest post. As I said above, this is my favorite topic...
I guess you could be experiencing one of two things. You could be becoming less interested (or uninterested) in sex because of the fear of getting pregnant. There is nothing like fear to put a dampener on our sex life. Or, you could be experiencing a rise in your vibration which is leading you towards being less interested in sex, and more interested in relating directly through love, not only with your husband but with everyone and everything.

Given that you practice advanced yoga, which is designed to do little else other than raise our consciousness towards Divine states, and you obviously already have a high level of bakhti, I would guess that you are experiencing the latter.

If that is the case then (like many of us) you have taken the purple pill, and are at least in the process of waking up . So your husband could well be right. If you feel that the sex act simply lowers your vibration from a more open, loving awareness to a more base, carnal level, then that is a good indication that you are ready to move on.

One of the major problems with practicing yoga, which I haven't seen mentioned much in this forum, is what happens if someone is married (or has a long term partner), and finds that they are changing in ways that could put a strain on their relationship. If you are evolving in a way that means that you no longer want to have sexual relations, but only want to relate through the higher vibrational levels (love, ecstasy etc), then your husband could well have a hard time dealing with that. If he does not have an awakened kundalini, and an open heart chakra, then he would simply not be able to feel, or relate to, the energies that you are experiencing. To put it bluntly, most men just don't get off on hugging. It can often make us sexually excited, and then frustrated if it doesn't lead to anything (especially if we are expecting, or hoping it will).

And of course we shouldn't have sex (with anyone) if we don't want to. It would just be a shallow experience and could leave us feeling that we have not served our higher purpose, or anyone else’s for that matter.

The kind of lovemaking that I described above, using only the energies of the heart chakra and third eye, only works if both partners have an awakened chakra system. If one partner doesn't, some energy will still flow, but the magic would not happen. The energies need to be circulating through both partners for the love and the ecstasy to build up.

I am assuming that your husband does not yet have an awakened and open chakra system, otherwise he would not be making comments about purple pills, and would simply be enjoying the sublime euphoric energies that naturally flow between you every time you come close to each other.

So what to do? I don't know. If you are lucky you will have a very supportive husband who will realize that you are on a divine path of awakening, and will be willing to sacrifice some of his own pleasures to assist you in your higher purpose. Or (and) you could teach him some advanced yoga practices and use your beautiful radiant ecstatic energies to help bring his out more fully. Then you'll be making divine love together all the time .

I don't know what your marriage vows are in the USA, but in the UK we say "I promise to love, cherrish and hold...", sounds very much like higher vibrational lovemaking to me. And you won't need to worry about getting pregnant, as it's simply not possible from pure higher chakra lovemaking (best contraception in the world ).

Love and Light

Christi




Edited by - Christi on May 03 2007 2:39:59 PM
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meenarashid

76 Posts

Posted - May 03 2007 :  3:46:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit meenarashid's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
aum namaste Christi

beautiful post

you bring up some very interesting points

i am sure many here have had hard childhoods /lives hence why we turn to yoga
Joe (hubby) has been the HUGEST supporter, friend & lover in my entire life
..

we met in our teens i was crazy so was he something about him... something intense i was only 16 but sensed this in him he was always a source of intense unconditional love
& not very interested in sex it was more me initiating almost as if rolls were reversed
then intense energy wave .. insatiable for a while, we decided to kinda *try* i went off the pill within a half a year we found out he had testicular cancer ( he is healthy now 15 mos)
well since hes healed up its become a issue with him it seems more due to the insecurity factor
& its been hard to watch a person who has a very open heart & yea i totally think hes been awakened but getting sick seemed to close him up
so this person who was just like a loving vessel at all times is now a cold person ( obviously not 100% )
but there is definately a hardness that was not present before or not as much
hes also got this thing where he simply doesnt want to be considered enlightened or awakened most of my yogi buddys teese him about this & he has admitted he simply doesnt want to get into these things for one he feels he would loose his mind ( um yea thats what its about:)& he says he does not want the responsibility
BUT he does support me 110% if i even talk about getting a job outside of yoga he says NO you are a yoga teacher go practice, go meditate, what about your tapas?

so we talk alot we are definately best friends & some of the time he seems to understand the less interest in rubbing bodys together but then this other thing pops up where he gets scard that i think hes less attractive he has a large scar from lynph node removal and lost one testical but i can honestly say those things are not noticible to me not physically just emotionaly
its like woa sh*t! cant believe that happened!! but its definately not *ugly* and of course no matter how many times i say that he wnt believe me cuz he feels a certain way ...


It just is a pain that all of these things are coinciding i suppose?

but you are right about one thing when we are in sync its definately euphoric there have been many times just things he says causes my heart to skip


the pregnancy thing is also kinda odd one for a year we had to get back on something due to chemo well nov 29th our wedding anniv was one year off chemo so the doc said we were allowed to try again so he got really excited and so did i thinking yay gonna get preg... well now its like i mostly feel i have so much work to do in here that i just dont know now & he doesnt either.

aum

Edited by - meenarashid on May 03 2007 3:50:02 PM
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meenarashid

76 Posts

Posted - May 03 2007 :  3:58:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit meenarashid's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
woa
some days seems i can talk about this & not be *affected* then other days i gotta admit there is a intense pain inside from all of it!starting to feel down.. go back to mantra & breath

laughing ( i always laugh not always in joy..)
aum
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - May 03 2007 :  4:18:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Christi, you don't know how much I appreciate your posts here! It is one of my favourite subjects as well.

quote:
Of course the process I described above was a pure form of heart chakra lovemaking with no sexual activity at all. Just pure love. It is also possible (and probably a lot more common) for people to adopt this as part of conventional sexual lovemaking. Then sexual energies are active in the second chakra and building up towards orgasm, and the heart chakra energy is merging and building up towards an over spilling of Divine love. But it is a more complex business as the tendency is to want to raise the energies to the highest possible vibration and purity, and we could find that the second chakra (sexual) energy is actually lowering the love vibration, and we naturally choose the higher over the lower. That means that at some point during conventional sexual lovemaking we could find that we naturally stop any sexual activity, and just keep the heart chakra connection going to allow the pure Love to expand into a bliss filled state of radiating ecstasy flowing back and forth between the two lovers.


Hm. There are multiple ways of having sex/tantra I guess. I'd say it is possible to have wild "normal" second chakra sex without engaging in physical sex as well. That's how this whole journey started for me - I was triggered to orgasms only by energies from hugs with clothes on. The experience was like having real hard core sex but it all happened inside. I do recognize what you describe also! The sudden stop of lovemaking and just floating instead. Feeling waves of coolness rolling from down and up, just being with the waves of the ocean of energy brought by Shakti. That is truly a cosmic sensation.


Christi wrote:
quote:
If you are evolving in a way that means that you no longer want to have sexual relations, but only want to relate through the higher vibrational levels (love, ecstasy etc), then your husband could well have a hard time dealing with that. If he does not have an awakened kundalini, and an open heart chakra, then he would simply not be able to feel, or relate to, the energies that you are experiencing. To put it bluntly, most men just don't get off on hugging.


My experience is that even men who have an awakened kundalini and an open heart chakra and ARE able to feel and relate to what's happening, may think it is boring if they still have blockages in the second and third chakra together with a strong ego!!! I know several men who are seriously into the spiritual journey, have strong bakthi, but are not "finished" with sex yet, and consciously keep themselves in the second/third chakra to enjoy sex a little longer for satiation of their egos. That can also bring turmoil into the relationship! When I experienced my first merging (described here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=724) my former partner did not join my experience, and we got on totally different tracks after that. I just wanted to be more in stillness and merge again. He wanted to have more plain sex and thought it was boring...

I see now I wrote that post in September -06. Since September -06 then, I have not had so much interest in sex, and I feel sad if it is like Yogani says that I might not ever be interested again. Will I live my life in celibacy from now on? I hope not. I don't think you understand me, Katrine. The gap is sort of not in the moment when I raise sexual energy. The gap has been from september and until now... I experience glimpses of bliss in sudden heart openings in hugs etc, but sometimes it is also just a "strong" something and tears comes. I don't feel joy, happiness or any "good feeling" - only during meditation when I sometimes meet my "inner lover" and I have a total crush on "him" and then during the day for a while walk around like someone madly in love, having a secret lover. Otherwise it is mostly neutral strong energy in me. I feel like I have alexithymia - numbness. Energy is energy. I have a lot of it. But it is grey and boring. What shall I do with it, sort of? If bliss and ecstacy does not come soon I want my money back!

Do you experience exactly the same kind of energies if you do solo tantra practices, Christi? Or is it another flavour for you too to be with another person? Doesn't it get stronger?

Meena, sorry to hear about your husband and your situation. I hope you find interaction on this forum helpful!

Edited by - emc on May 03 2007 4:36:52 PM
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meenarashid

76 Posts

Posted - May 03 2007 :  4:50:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit meenarashid's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
aum thank you emc ~:)


thought this tarot card felt fitting to post here

Osho Zen Tarot
6. The Lovers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Lovers

These three things are to be taken note of: the lowest love is sex - it is physical - and the highest refinement of love is compassion. Sex is below love, compassion is above love; love is exactly in the middle.

Very few people know what love is. Ninety-nine percent of people, unfortunately, think sexuality is love - it is not. Sexuality is very animal; it certainly has the potential of growing into love, but it is not actual love, only a potential....

If you become aware and alert, meditative, then sex can be transformed into love. And if your meditativeness becomes total, absolute, love can be transformed into compassion. Sex is the seed, love is the flower, compassion is the fragrance.

Buddha has defined compassion as love plus meditation. When your love is not just a desire for the other, when your love is not only a need, when your love is a sharing, when your love is not that of a beggar but an emperor, when your love is not asking for something in return but is ready only to give - to give for the sheer joy of giving - then add meditation to it and the pure fragrance is released. That is compassion; compassion is the highest phenomenon.

Osho Zen, Zest, Zip, Zap and Zing Chapter 3

Commentary:
What we call love is really a whole spectrum of relating, reaching from the earth to the sky. At the most earthy level, love is sexual attraction. Many of us remain stuck there, because our conditioning has burdened our sexuality with all kinds of expectations and repressions. Actually the biggest "problem" with sexual love is that it never lasts. Only if we accept this fact can we then really celebrate it for what it is - welcome its happening, and say good-bye with gratitude when it's not.

Then, as we mature, we can begin to experience the love that exists beyond sexuality and honors the unique individuality of the other. We begin to understand that our partner often functions as a mirror, reflecting unseen aspects of our deeper self and supporting us to become whole.

This love is based in freedom, not expectation or need. Its wings take us higher and higher towards the universal love that experiences all as one.





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lorf

48 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  02:28:56 AM  Show Profile  Visit lorf's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
EMC, you write about the gap, you write about your hopes to achieve bliss.
I would say that this talk of bliss is one of major obstacle on our journey to the core of our being.
Gaps can not be avoided on this path. Before leaving one room we have to pass throught the door and we cannot be in both rooms at the same time.
It is the same with realizations. When something is understood we can let go of the old and invite the new. But we do not know what the new is. We cannot know as we have not experienced it yet. If we think we know that it is bliss, awareness or glow or in any way try to put it into something known we cannot enter the new and will be left hanging in the gap.

We need practical tools on our travel but the bottom line is to let go of any kind of preconception or belief that we know where we are heading because we don’t know. Finding that, which our conscious mind is protecting at any cost might be much more unpleasant than expected. So be it. There is no way to avoid that pain if we really want to do this.
And bliss, might come as a side effect, might not. I would not count on it and it is not important anyway…
//lorf
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  03:34:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Meena, lovely quote of Osho's Zen Tarot Card! I use them a lot and they are really awesome.

Lorf, it seems quite depressing if you are right! That bliss is not a part of this journey.

I feel it is more like I trust the sayings of all who have done this journey before me. They all talk about bliss, peace and tremendous contentment with being coming with greater force and in longer and longer periods during the journey. Ecstatic bliss is the main ingredient in their teachings. I do not think they are trying to pull my leg. So it is not so much HOPE or STRIVING. I just figure out by logic that my journey with a high probability will be very similar to theirs.

And in a way it is not totally new... for me it has been a mix between a primary feeling of meeting something "new" that soon turns into a RECOGNITION. I know this already - I am on my way home, I have just forgotten it for a while.

But my akilles heel is I don't have very much patience. My bakhti is pushing me, eagerly. So my question is really to others who have passed this phase of sexual numbness - for how long will it last? Have you been through a period of sexual uninterest like this, lorf, with ecstacy increasing afterwards?

(Just to be clear: I feel it is NOT done by will, like when you shut off your sexual drive because you have no partner at the moment, for example. I have had such periods during my whole life, and I think women can do that rather easily. Just not mind about sex and then the urge is not there - dopamine levels are constant, but as soon as you start having sex again the drive awakens and you are trapped in the dopamine cycles. It is not that kind of "shutting off the second chakra" I'm in now, I am quite sure about that.)
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Katrine

Norway
1813 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  04:44:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit Katrine's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi emc

quote:
The gap has been from september and until now... I experience glimpses of bliss in sudden heart openings in hugs etc, but sometimes it is also just a "strong" something and tears comes. I don't feel joy, happiness or any "good feeling"


Yes.....
Sorry I didn't see the depth of your grief, emc. Many times, I have been taken by complete surprise by the devestating grief caused by the lack of contact with my true nature (the Clarity, Joy, Love). And - for me - this grief deepens the more I "see" (through glimpses and states, just like you) of what I truly am. When not consciously connected - this grief is so deep, so heart wrenching, that facing all of it at once is almost unbearable.

What I can tell you, though, is that in my experience, the numbness/neutrality (over the years I have experienced lots of it....but gradually less and less, as the purification goes on) is what happens if I am unaware of this deep grief. Not that I consciously "depress" it, but rather that what is right here, right now, is so not what I want. I do not want to face that I am not connected. Like you, I am also impatient. I know what I am missing.

However; wanting myself away from myself; which makes me ask questions like "how long will this last" (because I sure don't want to be right here with this) .....is exactly what keeps me stuck. Sure, I then won't have to face the inner deep grief, but since what I seek is never "over there" somewhere (whether timewise or spacewise), this not accepting the gap is precisely what keeps me on the surface of it. And - to be on the surface of myself....is just no life. Yet - the surface "gap" is not separate from the deep "gap" (the full, potent silence) of who I am.

I may be totally wrong, emc, (and forgive me if I make presumptions that are wrong) - but the grief will surface if you let it. Life will bring you opportunities to face it. It always does for me (I just don't always listen). Relax just enough (which means to not let the impatience have its way with you) to get in touch with what is below the numbness. What is it that you have put a lid on? And why?

This process is not something that i can clever myself out of. The fact that I am "smart" never helped me here. On the contrary. Again and again, I have to face what it is in me that stands between myself and myself. Years and years of reactive habits....are not easily seen. But it is inner silence that illuminates. This, you can be sure of.

Time really is not the issue here. Only the amount of awareness needed to see. For years, nothing seems to happen, and then...*pling*.....one single insight can change your life. Did it take time? Yes and no. But time is not the issue. Awareness is.

Also - awareness is attracted to awareness - so the less resistance I have to accepting what is going on right here - the more of my energy stays put in the moment. If more of me is here, then the chance that inner silence will come through, is much greater.

I wish you all the best, emc.
You are much closer to yourself than you think.
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Christi

United Kingdom
4103 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  10:03:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Meena,

quote:
Joe (hubby) has been the HUGEST supporter, friend & lover in my entire life


Beautiful.

Thanks for another very honest and open post. It sounds like you have a very loving and caring husband who will support you fully through whatever happens to you during your evolution. You are very lucky. You must have done something really good in your last life… or maybe in this one too?
I agree that this stuff can be a bit hard to talk about at times. Personal relationships, sex and love seem to be our most intimate aspects, and the things that can most easily send us off centre if we have any difficulties with them. We can define ourselves very easily in terms of these things… “a beautiful lover… a devoted wife/ husband… etc”. So if anything seriously shifts in these areas it can threaten our sense of who we are (or who we think we are).
If you are not sure if you want to get pregnant or not, then that can be very confusing too. I have two children so I have been through that stage myself, and it was a much more confusing time for my partner than it was for me (possibly the case for most couples). And… if you are naturally transitioning from physical sex to pure heart centred lovemaking at the same time, then that will be doubly confusing.
I am sorry to hear about the physical problems that your husband has been through and is still going through, and I hope everything works itself out for him.

Great Tarrot card by the way. Osho was really amazing when it came to the process of the transformation of sexual energy into divine consciousness.

Love and Light

Christi
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Christi

United Kingdom
4103 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  10:23:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi EMC,

quote:
My experience is that even men who have an awakened kundalini and an open heart chakra and ARE able to feel and relate to what's happening, may think it is boring if they still have blockages in the second and third chakra together with a strong ego!!! I know several men who are seriously into the spiritual journey, have strong bakthi, but are not "finished" with sex yet, and consciously keep themselves in the second/third chakra to enjoy sex a little longer for satiation of their egos. That can also bring turmoil into the relationship!


You are right, there is a transition period between functioning purely from a sexual level to functioning purely from a heart centred level, and it can be quite a long process. I kind of skipped over it in my previous posts in this thread just to try and keep them short, and to keep things simple. I imagine that there could be some very pure beings who just rise in their consciousness straight into a pure love mode and simply let sex fall away. But I don’t think most of us are wired like that, so there is a lengthy period where we are operating from different levels at the same time. During this transition period we still feel second chakra energies, (and can experience sexual orgasms and ejaculation), and at the same time our hearts are open and we feel love pouring between our lover and ourselves. Our higher charkas could be opening at the same time, so during conventional physical lovemaking, or non physical heart centred lovemaking we could feel ourselves merging and expanding and blissing out into cosmic orgasmic ecstasies that are out of this world. We are really quite amazing multidimensional beings.

quote:
Hm. There are multiple ways of having sex/tantra I guess. I'd say it is possible to have wild "normal" second chakra sex without engaging in physical sex as well. That's how this whole journey started for me - I was triggered to orgasms only by energies from hugs with clothes on. The experience was like having real hard core sex but it all happened inside.


yes... when I talk about second chakra sex, I don’t necessarily mean physical sex. Second chakra sex usually is physical (involving physical stimulation), but it certainly doesn’t have to be. As you have experienced, we can experience everything on an energetic level with no physical contact at all. When the energies are strong, we can experience second chakra sex simply by being held close by someone. Intense sexual energy can rise, even to the point of orgasm (with or without ejaculation). This can even happen without a partner present simply by a slight movement of thought. Prana follows consciousness, so when our consciousness moves to the second chakra, it will cause a build up of energy there culminating in sexual orgasm. When we are operating mainly at an energetic level it makes very little difference whether we have our clothes on or off.

So the difference between pure second chakra lovemaking and pure heart chakra lovemaking is not about anything physical. In pure second chakra lovemaking we feel powerful sexual energies and can experience sexual orgasm, ejaculation, and subsequent pranic depletion. In pure heart chakra lovemaking we feel overwhelming love, ecstasy, a beautiful sense of connectedness with our partner as we feel the energies flowing between us, and a build up of energy that becomes more and more sublime and blissful. But there would be no sexual arousal, no yoni flushing for a woman or erection for a man, no sexual orgasm or ejaculation and no loss of prana.
quote:
Do you experience exactly the same kind of energies if you do solo tantra practices, Christi? Or is it another flavour for you too to be with another person? Doesn't it get stronger?


Just as it is possible to practice second chakra tantric lovemaking solo, it is also possible to practice heart chakra tantric lovemaking solo. All you do is sit in your usual meditation posture, and imagine you are embracing your lover. Imagine your heart is opening and the energy of pure divine love is flowing out of you and into your lovers’ heart, and from your lovers’ heart into your heart. It’s a simple and very beautiful tantric solo love practice. There is another practice, which is exactly the same, except that instead of imagining your lover embracing you, you simply imagine your heart opening and the love flowing out to everyone, and everything… the whole of creation.

In Buddhism this practice of pouring love out to the whole of creation is called Metta Bhavana, which means the invocation of the mood of divine love (or literally “the cultivation of love”). I believe this is practiced by monks and nuns, in nearly all of the Buddhist traditions.

But yes, there is definitely something incredible added by engaging in pure forms of heart centred lovemaking with a partner if we can find someone who is awakened and open, who feels the energies involved and is willing to engage in these pure forms of practice. It's like adding another dimension. Of course it needs to be someone we trust, after all, we are opening our heart to them… fully.

quote:
The gap has been from september and until now... I experience glimpses of bliss in sudden heart openings in hugs etc, but sometimes it is also just a "strong" something and tears comes. I don't feel joy, happiness or any "good feeling" - only during meditation when I sometimes meet my "inner lover" and I have a total crush on "him" and then during the day for a while walk around like someone madly in love, having a secret lover.


Welcome to the wonderful world of ecstatic bliss! This is it. When you get that feeling of being madly in love with a secret lover inside yourself, drown into it. If you can cultivate it in meditation, and then reside in that feeling during the day, then do it. Be madly in love with your secret lover and become intoxicated by the love. Imagine what would happen if that feeling grew inside, and expanded to encompass all of you. Even words like bliss and ecstacy would not be enough to describe the state of your being then.

Christi

Edited by - Christi on May 04 2007 2:24:31 PM
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meenarashid

76 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  10:36:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit meenarashid's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
emc= have my own cards but preffer to read oshos LOL:):)
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meenarashid

76 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  10:39:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit meenarashid's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by meenarashid

aum Christi you are truly beautiful





& so very true about talking about these issues they are the hardest to talk about but for me .. the most hip opening :)
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meenarashid

76 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  10:44:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit meenarashid's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
So this is nice eh?

was in bed last night talking to hubby
& i thought about these posts made & looked at him
& said ya know i really like you

smiling

aumm
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lorf

48 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  2:46:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit lorf's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
EMC,
I did not mean to say that bliss is not part of the journey. It is! It is a part of the journey too, just like everything else. But the moment we set up goals, goals like bliss, love, light, unity, harmony or whatever it may be we are limiting ourselves making sure that we end up in what our mind has created, nothing else.
In imagining a goal like bliss for ourselves we will miss that which is not possible to imagine. Then we will not be able to make the leap into the unknown. Bliss will be there anyway, but only as a bonus.

It is the same thing with sex. If we quantify sex into levels where each step represents a level of development where higher chakra sex is better than lower chakra sex, then we have done the same thing. We have created goals that we want to achieve.

I believe that the gap you are experiencing right now is a sign that you are about to see sex for what it is, energy. Just another manifestation of energy. But the old concepts of what sex should be (including the “Osho model” with levels) are stopping you from taking the step into seeing this. Maybe you do not want to reduce making love down to just another blend of energy in this earth dimension. If you do not you are left hanging in between where the old way of having sex has lost it’s magic but still, you cannot rest in the knowing that it is just energy. It may be beautiful, an expression of love, but still, just energy. (I believe Katrine described sex becoming awareness in some post,which was a more beautiful way of expressing something similar to what I want to say)

If I offend you with this text I am sorry, I understand from your post that you have a hard time right now. But I write this hoping that some of these words may help you in the long run even thought you may not like them in this moment.

EMC, you also asked me of my experience. I had no sex for like six months now, I do not miss it which may be because I am getting old. Or it may be because nowadays I am in fact more able to choose in which form my energy is manifested, which is not often in a sexual form. Yes, “sexual uninterest” would be an appropriate description of my state.
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Sparkle

Ireland
1457 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  3:59:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit Sparkle's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Emc for reactivating this thread with your openess and honesty, it has lead to some really useful information being shared, for me and I sure for many.

Christi, I like the way you describe the heart centred lovemaking, which can be experienced by simply holding or being close. I find I have more of an urge to do this now than having physical sex.
It leads me to a question, which maybe is for another thread, about making love with someone like this, who is not your partner.

Maybe I'm a prude but I find it difficult to get over the idea that sex with someone outside of marriage has negitive karmic consequences and is damaging on a soul level.
Lovemaking at a heart level seems different. The question is of course, why does it seem different to me. If one is ok, then why not the other.?
Is there more to this gap than meets the eye.

Meena said:
quote:
HOly thank you guys for these posts!! this is helpful to me
been with my husband for 12 years now and although very high energy just not interested in sex much and am also unfomfortable right now with the thought of getting pregnant
its not easy for him to deal with or me .. act so different now & feel so different
he says i took the *purple* pill and WOKE up some days thats really hard its like why?


Some years ago my partner and I had not had sex for some time. One evening I got into bed and suddenly a red/pink coloured light filled the room. Not making love was not an option, it just had to happen. During the lovemaking I vividly felt a third beautiful energy presence between us. I knew at that moment there would be conception. Out of this we had our beautiful daughter.

So being engaged in this kind of work can have benefits like this.
As Christi says, we are multi-dimensional beings, and anything can happen.
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  5:04:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Katrine, when I first read your post I felt it was a too strong word to use: grief. But it is because I did not connect my sexual numbness state to my emotional process right now. You made me see the link. I process a lot of grief right now. Perhaps it is life's way to say "There's a time for everything - now is time for emotional purification, not sex." That fits very well into the fact that I have a huge heart opening going on. Sorrow lives in the heart and it is pouring out and simultaneously the sexual energy is transformed to love. I want to be on that more attractive higher frequency, as Christi said! Wow. This became very clear suddenly. Of course! I am opening the lid and it's not dangerous at all! Feelings are rather cool when you let yourself drown in them and get to know them.

Christi
quote:
I imagine that there could be some very pure beings who just rise in their consciousness straight into a pure love mode and simply let sex fall away. But I don’t think most of us are wired like that, so there is a lengthy period where we are operating from different levels at the same time.


Hm. I reflect a lot about how I functioned sexually before my spiritual awakening in feb -06. I can see now that I actually experienced heart openings with my first real partner. I was often in tears when we made love and we could also just float for hours without orgasms. I most often went into trance during sex and I have experimented quite a lot with sex during my single periods. I have no hesitations to any kind of sex, really, and have mostly had good sex on my own conditions. I don't think I have so many blockages around sex in general. So it might very well be the case that I made so much work on the second and third chakra level before I woke up spiritually and that is why I could enter heart merging states quite quickly with the man who openened my energy body.

By the way Christi, your way of explaining how the energies work is excellent! I say AMEN to all of that! It is exactly the same "model" of how it works that I have! I love your way of writing so clear and straight, so it becomes easy to understand! And your description of solo tantra practices makes me inspired to try some more of that. But I believe I still have to self-pace a lot if I try that too much right now.

Very interesting to get feed-back on the inner lover. So THAT is ecstatic bliss??? Is there a general agreement to that among forumists? Hm... *scratching my beard*... Cool. I think. I thought that might be scenery to just not care about.....

But according to lorf, if I get it right - that is exactly what I should do: regard it as scenery. It is sort of just a bonus that might not stay? Is that so? And by the way, I have never had bliss as a goal, though, the way you describe it, lorf. As I tried to say in my former post, I have only understood that bliss and ecstacy is a "standard ingredient" on the spiritual journey and that it will come when it's time.

quote:
It is the same thing with sex. If we quantify sex into levels where each step represents a level of development where higher chakra sex is better than lower chakra sex, then we have done the same thing. We have created goals that we want to achieve.


The way I see it it's not "good or bad". It is just a natural process that happens. It is a transformation to higher frequencies. I don't think second chakra sex is bad in any way. It is just so utterly uninteresting to be an animal right now. As Osho said, sex is only the potential, raw somehow. So with all respect for your interpretation, I do believe I see sex for what it is - energy. And I move toward higher frequencies of that energy. And that is not what I would characterize as "JUST energy". That is sort of IT! It's life itself.

I am not at all offended! And I do not have such a hard time, really. Basically, everyting is very okey with me. I just wondered what this gap was, and now I think I have gotten some pieces of the puzzle. And lorf, since you also describe a state of "sexual uninterest" - is it possible that your "sexual uninterest" also is an expression of "a lid covering great grief"? Does that ring a bell in you, as it did with me?
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - May 04 2007 :  5:22:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Sparkle,

quote:
Maybe I'm a prude but I find it difficult to get over the idea that sex with someone outside of marriage has negitive karmic consequences and is damaging on a soul level.
Lovemaking at a heart level seems different. The question is of course, why does it seem different to me. If one is ok, then why not the other.?


When you get about here in the discussion the question of monogamy-polygamy naturally arises. We are all one -> the higher frequencies you hold, the greater the insights and states of unity. That's why heart merging begins to feel much more okey to do with anyone. You have left the animal-sex state of separateness (duality) and the boundaries are loosening up toward unity (non-duality). I'd say that on an energy level, there is absolutely nothing wrong in blending love energies with several. The enlightened one's talk about everyone being their lovers. Some have lived polygamic lives. But... and that's the big but... The way I have understood it: as long as you have any mud left to purify, conflicts will arise on a relational level if you get intimate with more than one partner. It will create emotions one way or the other. There's that karmic wheel still working! It is a much "safer" road to stay with one the whole journey. You will continue to be confronted with your mud (the partner being the best guru) and you will be more and more greatful toward your partner whom you have done this fantastic teamwork with - creating this "sacred relationship"! Bernie Prior points to the fact that if you get these strong energies to flow with ONE person you are strong! Managing the energies from two will often be more than you can handle and you will get blasted!

The Osho-guy I talked to had been living polygamic since the seventies and he was pretty high frequent in his energies, but he was STILL working on his jealousy! I guess it can become very easy to flip to another as soon as feelings/mud start to show if you have not committed yourself to one. That way you never need to live through a confrontation properly and purify the blockages. That is the beauty of committment in my opinion. To find a partner who is willing to walk the path by your side and receive the greatest gift of them all: a teamwork with your best guru - what a blessing!

Edited by - emc on May 04 2007 5:29:44 PM
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