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 Tantra - A Holistic View of Spiritual Development
 If the Goddess cannot withhold orgasm
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yogani

USA
5132 Posts

Posted - Jan 12 2006 :  08:37:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Some recent emails on tantric practice and female orgasm:
---------------------

Q: What can I do if the Goddess cannot withhold orgasm during connection?

A: You may find the following interchange helpful. Bottom line: All in her own time...
---------------------

Q1: First I would like to thank you for your wonderfully organized and informational website. Your thoughts and teachings are easy to understand and very consistent, without using so much traditional language as to be confusing.

Me and my wife have found tantric techniques to bring great pleasure into our lives. For almost two years, we have been using the holdback technique as well as yoni massage and sacred spot massage to create a deeper and stronger bond during our sexual experiences. I truly enjoy staying in front of my orgasm and worshipping her as a divine goddess while she enjoys incredible multiple orgasms. Our union is so strong, it is as if we are one being in total bliss. We do not so much feel a sense of pranic drain from her orgasm, but more of a sense of total and complete mutual satisfaction due to our close coupling. Is there anything wrong with following a path where the man stays in front of his orgasm so that both lovers can enjoy the greatly increased capacity for orgasm in her?

A1: Thank you for your kind note and sharing. I am very happy that you are finding the AYP lessons to be helpful.

On tantric sex, the experience of the man having good ability in holdback and the woman having multiple orgasms is an interim step on the path of tantra. You may both enjoy it as long as you wish. But know that your bhakti will eventually take you beyond that to preorgasmic sex for both partners. Which is not to say orgasms will not happen. It is only that the neurobiology higher up will become much more enjoyable than orgasm for your partner and she will eventually want to go higher with her energy, just as you are.

Of course all of this is predicated on a good routine of sitting practices including deep meditation, spinal breathing and so on. With steady-state inner silence and ecstatic conductivity coming up, the expansion of sexual function to become increasing spiritual will occur naturally.

If you read the Secrets of Wilder novel, you will find one scenario of how this can evolve over the years. It is also discussed in the AYP tantra lessons on the website and in the AYP Easy Lessons book.

You might like to surface this question in the AYP forums also, where you can receive other opinions. It is a great place to discuss practices.

Q2: Thank you for your answer, it seems our bhakti will eventually lead us to the right path for us.

Reading more and more of your site, I was quite amazed to find I had already instictively discovered Mulabandha, and, partially, Sambhavi without knowing what they were!

I do have one last question - I have realized that for me, orgasm is something from which I must abstain completely - the drain of my prana is far too great, and I don't feel my energy anywhere close to before for even two weeks or more. Will this ever be the case for my wife? I would not want her to have to give this pleasure up forever, and I confess I take great enjoyment in helping her to achieve intense and extended orgasms. Will she still be able to enjoy this pleasure occasionally, or even regularly, without harming our yoga?

Thank you again for your wisdom. There are many "false prophets" out there, and it is clear you are not one of them.

A2: I don't think it is a matter of your wife giving anything up. When the shift happens, she will be going to more via direct perception of that. It can happen gradually over a long period of time, or be a sudden inspiration. It is really up to (and within) her. Of course you can help a lot with that by being open to to what is happening and encouraging her toward more lasting ecstatic bliss. And yes, women generally are less depleted by orgasm, though there are exceptions. In the lessons I say that multiple female orgasms can lead to depletion similar to a single orgasm for a man. A number of woman have told me this. But I am not a woman, so direct experience will be the best guide for women in this matter. For some feminine inspiration on this subject, check out the book The Art of Sexual Ecstasy by Margo Anand. You can find it and other books on sexology on the AYP book list http://www.aypsite.org/booklist13.html

One thing is for sure -- there is much more to be found in front of orgasm than behind it for both men and women. To this end, there is a new AYP book coming out in the spring called:
Tantra - Discovering the Power of Pre-Orgasmic Sex

It will be a companion to the new book, Deep Meditation, and others that will be coming out this year and next on a wide range of practices, comprising the "AYP Enlightenment Series."

Q3: Thanks again. Clearly the shift will be up to her, and when and if she choses that, I will support her fully. To be honest, this point seems far off for us. We have yet to embrace a truly guided approach; until now, we've picked up some useful information here and there, but some of our practices are confused, some are missing, and some are underdeveloped. She has yet to embrace meditation and breathing practices. To that end, I bought the AYP book today - the online lessons are great and well organized, but it would be much nicer to be able to read and study them together in a book. I see my yoga as starting over from the beginning, and hers truly beginning as we work first on basic practices - any insight we may have gained so far, and my already well conserved prana can only help us.

As far as not knowing if she feels the same energy drain as I do in orgasm, surely this is something I can never know. But I think we both do sense that it is far less (although she does find multiple orgasms to be draining). One thing of which I suppose again, we may never know, but seems to be the case, is that she seems to reach far greater pleasure in orgasm now than I ever was able. If it truly is the case that her pleasure from it is far greater, and her drain far less, this makes me wonder if she might never need or want to stop having orgasms. On the other hand, if her pleasure in pre-orgasm alone can top that, that would be a great delight for both of us to share. Neverthless, it is clear this must be a decision for her to make when she is ready, and not something I would want to push her towards unless she feels a natural drive for it. Perhaps this is part of the reason why for a couple learning tantra, the man must take the first steps.

In any case, thanks for your time, and I look forward to sharing your book with my wife!

A3: Don't know if you intended to give your wife the new Deep Meditation book in addition to having the AYP Easy Lessons book on hand (good idea). The former is a short but thorough primer for folks who may have no prior interest in meditation or spiritual practices, and is much easier to digest than the entire body of AYP lessons.

The "more" that pre-orgasmic tantric practice aids in cultivating is found in our 24 hour living. We go from a limited-duration peak experience of orgasm to living in a state of ecstasy throughout our daily life. It is a permanent transformation of the basic functioning of our nervous system. That rise of ecstatic conductivity, combined with the rise of inner silence via meditation is the foundation of enlightenment.

The guru is in you.

emc

2072 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2006 :  08:56:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
What is counted as female orgasm in this topic?

As a woman I have many different kinds of orgasms. What is actually "pre-orgasmic"? If it is a clitorial orgasm that is meant here it is no problem to understand the "pre-orgasmic" state. A clitorial orgasm is as clear to me as ejaculation for a man. It is a clear energy drain from a such orgasm. But what about vaginal orgasm? Is pre-orgasmic when there is no contractions in the vagina at all? These orgasms can be much more vague and longer. And fountain orgasms? When no fluids are released from the female prostata glands? Such orgasms just appears whenever. It would be very difficult for me to "feel" when a such orgasm is on its way and try to keep in front of it...

Any other woman have any thoughts about this?
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - Sep 24 2006 :  8:44:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I have wondered why I haven't gotten any comments on this, and even felt embarressed. Perhaps it was an inappropriate question? But the non-answer, in other words, the SILENCE, was the best answer ever. The answers will come if one just waits. Also this time!

In the Satsang Café Anthem wrote

quote:
I have come to know intimately that everything I have ever truly wanted has always been right there inside of me despite my tremendous effort to find it elsewhere. To me all this effort comes from an internal basic longing for two things: yearning for love and to physically know pleasure. To me, spirit yields love as this is what it is "made of" and life yields pleasure when it flows unopposed through our bodies. We seek these externally, but they are the very fabric of our existence. --- It is ironic that in our attempt to satisfy our basic desires to find love/ pleasure etc. that we look first where it isn’t: outside of ourselves. This is what takes us away from having it. It comes from our false belief that what we seek is located externally in this world that we inhabit.--- Our access to it can also be obscured by our being distracted by our thoughts, beliefs and emotions that float around our insides with us.


This is in fact exactly what I have come to know when it comes to sexuality and the difference between love and sex. Anthem puts it so clear and simple. This is what I was fishing after with the "addiction"-thread as well. I will try to tell you what I mean.

In seeking physical pleasure outside we "leave ourselves" as Anthem puts it. Katrine puts it equally wonderful in the sentence: “The peak experience is always here now. It is you that come and go.”

Whenever one feels one WANTS something one has left oneself. Whenever one has an image of the future in the mind one has left oneself. Whenever there is a like or dislike one has left oneself. And when this is applied on the sexual area it gets tricky. Because sex is so great and most of us WANT to have sex, don't we? It is perfectly okey to want sex. There is NOTHING WRONG in wanting and having sex. The whole world loves to have sex! But HAVING sex is different from MAKING love. And I have come to know that difference in my way, which I'd like to share. I do not want to persuade anyone that I am right. I just want to tell about my experience.

Most of the people in the world walk around being their identities, their egos. They have lots of wantings. Physical pleasure/sex is a great wanting. So our society is obsessed with sex. I do believe most of it is ego-based sex. Most people are not aware that they ARE, that life is love and that they are constant “peak experiences”. They deeply long for this love, but cannot find it in the world of distractions made to satisfy needs of the ego. So they compensate with sex and attachment. They feel separated and long for wholeness. When you are in the mind/ego you are separated. (“It is YOU that come and go”.) When we leave our true selves we feel separated. And when we do not see each other for what we truly are, we see each other as separate objects. Not acknowledging our true nature, we become separated objects and we try to attach ourselves to others in relationships to feel less separated. The sex gives wonderful pleasure, but is still does not acknowledge our true nature. Behind layers of fears, we walk around as isolated egos using each other as sex objects. The other person is there to fulfill MY sexual needs. To give ME pleasure. And we know what we like and dislike when it comes to sex. Preferences. It is all the ego talking.

It is actually simple, but it gets difficult to grasp when drawing it to the bottom line. The manifestation of the sexual ego is so subtle that most of us even don’t consider it important to our sex lives. In fact, everything that is mind-produced is ego-related. It means for example that the slightest thought of a woman's body, a glimpse of a memory of earlier girlfriends or sexual situations, pictures captured by the eye on a magazine creating a liking are mind-made! An inviting smile from a woman playing the flirting game is an action from a person involved in an ego-based sexual mind-made game of trying to GET attention, confirmation of being attractive etc. If you WANT anything... it is a NEED from the ego. It is sex-related. The way we have sex is usually to WANT the excitement. Excitement is ONLY based on expectations of what is to come... A sexual touch bringing the breathing to go faster is ONLY having effect if you have an idea of what is to come next. The glance of a beautiful woman is WANTING to have that "candy" as a picture in your mind. It is a MIND-thing. And there is nothing wrong with mind-things. There is nothing wrong with this. But it IS this.

Love is different. Love is calm, but strong. Love is now. Love has no wantings or intentions. Love is totally unrelated to the body-mind identity, looks, any sexual triggers – biological or mental. Love is everywhere and all the time. Love is GIVING and BEING. Love is no thoughts, images or ideals. When there is no neediness you are staying home. When there is no expectation of response or GETTING anything, you have decided to be present and not leave your true self. If no expectations exist, when you feel that you need no other to GIVE you anything, when you KNOW that you have everything you need allready, then love is.

The question I asked above was a mind-question. I WANTED to reach a certain state. The pre-orgasmic state. I had been multi-orgasmic for a long time, and WANTED to reach a goal. I WANTED to be satisfied, but now more spiritually. I still wanted. It was still my ego talking. I was still not present when having sex, even though it was tantra. Lots of energies flowing in the spine, lots of energy orgasms, lots of both physical and non-physical tantra experiences. But it was pleasure satisfying my ego. Nothing wrong with that. It is just what is was for me. Cool tantra experiences.

In spite of this, sex started to feel empty. Sometimes our love-making ended in wonderful present love, but it was occasional happenings, and we could only state afterwards that "THAT was making love!". I started to long for those occasions. In fact, my body started to refuse having sex. I could be in the mood, but when ego-based sex excitement started I froze. I felt lonely. I felt separated. So we started to make love in a different way. We didn't excite each other the way we used to. And surprisingly, there was no need! What happened?

We tried to clear our minds of thoughts and let our bodies decide what to do. Just caressing each other, stroking the skin, smooth and soft gave such pleasure! We did not expect it to go further into penetration. We just let the bodies touch and my skin was SCREAMING with joy and I just felt LOVE for him and myself at the same time. I just felt the touch - totally - just there, and the skin was responding as if it was the center of the universe and all pleasure in the world was gathered at that spot! No longing for any orgasm.

When I am in that presence I do not want anything. I just want to be there. And strangely, the breathing does not get excited. It is deep breathing. Also, he may be erected, but it is a soft erection. Firm, but still soft. The minute one of us starts expecting or wanting, the excitement comes and he gets a hard erection, I loose my deep breathing and we just stop. It doesn't feel right. I do not want that. So we lie still. Just still, and clean our minds again and *poff* we stay home and are in fantastic being. Before, I could get annoyed or a bit irritated that he didn't touch me exactly the right way... When we stay home, the way he touches me is PERFECT! Just perfect. He his a GOD. How can he not touch my perfect godess-body perfectly?

Once, when I touched his skin with my hand, I could feel every cell in my skin just open up and scream with joy and pleasure, and as a miracle, all cells in his skin being touched by my hand opened up and screamed the same way. It was a golden carbonic acid kind of feeling and I just said “It’s a miracle, it’s a miracle” and cried. There was no gap between us. It was male meeting female, it was body meeting body, and it was beautiful.

Coming back to the answer of my mind-question above... When penetration occurred in full presence, our bodies knew what to do. We did not move – our sex organs knew what to do. And there was movement inside and pleasure, but no orgasm. The in-and-out-thing was not necessary. We could be still, but the organs were moving and responding to each other. Fascinating.

Making love is today a very different thing from having sex. And I do not long for sex anymore. It is not wrong having sex. Perhaps I will have more sex in my life. But I have no longing for it. Now I know that when I stay home in a sexual situation, my body will do the right thing, and I will find tremendous pleasure. I will not leave my self when in a sexual situation. I will let love create whatever is meant to be created.

I do not say this is right or better than having sex the way I had sex before. It is only my truth about the difference between having sex for my own pleasure and letting the source make love with my body vehicle.

For me, it is purification. Leaving out thoughts, images and wantings that do not serve me any longer. I do not forbid myself anything. I do not DISLIKE sex. It is just not interesting to HAVE sex the way I used to and my body is showing me what to do when I am in silence.

So thank you all, for showing me the importance of SILENCE!
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Wolfgang

Germany
467 Posts

Posted - Sep 25 2006 :  07:08:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit Wolfgang's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Sounds really wonderful, thanks for sharing !

And now I won't disturb your SILENCE any longer
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JDas

USA
74 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  5:01:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit JDas's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
emc, I stopped breathing reading that! Thank you so much! I will read it at least ten more times.

quote:
Originally posted by emc

I have wondered why I haven't gotten any comments on this, and even felt embarressed. Perhaps it was an inappropriate question? But the non-answer, in other words, the SILENCE, was the best answer ever. The answers will come if one just waits. Also this time!

In the Satsang Café Anthem wrote

quote:
I have come to know intimately that everything I have ever truly wanted has always been right there inside of me despite my tremendous effort to find it elsewhere. To me all this effort comes from an internal basic longing for two things: yearning for love and to physically know pleasure. To me, spirit yields love as this is what it is "made of" and life yields pleasure when it flows unopposed through our bodies. We seek these externally, but they are the very fabric of our existence. --- It is ironic that in our attempt to satisfy our basic desires to find love/ pleasure etc. that we look first where it isn’t: outside of ourselves. This is what takes us away from having it. It comes from our false belief that what we seek is located externally in this world that we inhabit.--- Our access to it can also be obscured by our being distracted by our thoughts, beliefs and emotions that float around our insides with us.


This is in fact exactly what I have come to know when it comes to sexuality and the difference between love and sex. Anthem puts it so clear and simple. This is what I was fishing after with the "addiction"-thread as well. I will try to tell you what I mean.

In seeking physical pleasure outside we "leave ourselves" as Anthem puts it. Katrine puts it equally wonderful in the sentence: “The peak experience is always here now. It is you that come and go.”

Whenever one feels one WANTS something one has left oneself. Whenever one has an image of the future in the mind one has left oneself. Whenever there is a like or dislike one has left oneself. And when this is applied on the sexual area it gets tricky. Because sex is so great and most of us WANT to have sex, don't we? It is perfectly okey to want sex. There is NOTHING WRONG in wanting and having sex. The whole world loves to have sex! But HAVING sex is different from MAKING love. And I have come to know that difference in my way, which I'd like to share. I do not want to persuade anyone that I am right. I just want to tell about my experience.

Most of the people in the world walk around being their identities, their egos. They have lots of wantings. Physical pleasure/sex is a great wanting. So our society is obsessed with sex. I do believe most of it is ego-based sex. Most people are not aware that they ARE, that life is love and that they are constant “peak experiences”. They deeply long for this love, but cannot find it in the world of distractions made to satisfy needs of the ego. So they compensate with sex and attachment. They feel separated and long for wholeness. When you are in the mind/ego you are separated. (“It is YOU that come and go”.) When we leave our true selves we feel separated. And when we do not see each other for what we truly are, we see each other as separate objects. Not acknowledging our true nature, we become separated objects and we try to attach ourselves to others in relationships to feel less separated. The sex gives wonderful pleasure, but is still does not acknowledge our true nature. Behind layers of fears, we walk around as isolated egos using each other as sex objects. The other person is there to fulfill MY sexual needs. To give ME pleasure. And we know what we like and dislike when it comes to sex. Preferences. It is all the ego talking.

It is actually simple, but it gets difficult to grasp when drawing it to the bottom line. The manifestation of the sexual ego is so subtle that most of us even don’t consider it important to our sex lives. In fact, everything that is mind-produced is ego-related. It means for example that the slightest thought of a woman's body, a glimpse of a memory of earlier girlfriends or sexual situations, pictures captured by the eye on a magazine creating a liking are mind-made! An inviting smile from a woman playing the flirting game is an action from a person involved in an ego-based sexual mind-made game of trying to GET attention, confirmation of being attractive etc. If you WANT anything... it is a NEED from the ego. It is sex-related. The way we have sex is usually to WANT the excitement. Excitement is ONLY based on expectations of what is to come... A sexual touch bringing the breathing to go faster is ONLY having effect if you have an idea of what is to come next. The glance of a beautiful woman is WANTING to have that "candy" as a picture in your mind. It is a MIND-thing. And there is nothing wrong with mind-things. There is nothing wrong with this. But it IS this.

Love is different. Love is calm, but strong. Love is now. Love has no wantings or intentions. Love is totally unrelated to the body-mind identity, looks, any sexual triggers – biological or mental. Love is everywhere and all the time. Love is GIVING and BEING. Love is no thoughts, images or ideals. When there is no neediness you are staying home. When there is no expectation of response or GETTING anything, you have decided to be present and not leave your true self. If no expectations exist, when you feel that you need no other to GIVE you anything, when you KNOW that you have everything you need allready, then love is.

The question I asked above was a mind-question. I WANTED to reach a certain state. The pre-orgasmic state. I had been multi-orgasmic for a long time, and WANTED to reach a goal. I WANTED to be satisfied, but now more spiritually. I still wanted. It was still my ego talking. I was still not present when having sex, even though it was tantra. Lots of energies flowing in the spine, lots of energy orgasms, lots of both physical and non-physical tantra experiences. But it was pleasure satisfying my ego. Nothing wrong with that. It is just what is was for me. Cool tantra experiences.

In spite of this, sex started to feel empty. Sometimes our love-making ended in wonderful present love, but it was occasional happenings, and we could only state afterwards that "THAT was making love!". I started to long for those occasions. In fact, my body started to refuse having sex. I could be in the mood, but when ego-based sex excitement started I froze. I felt lonely. I felt separated. So we started to make love in a different way. We didn't excite each other the way we used to. And surprisingly, there was no need! What happened?

We tried to clear our minds of thoughts and let our bodies decide what to do. Just caressing each other, stroking the skin, smooth and soft gave such pleasure! We did not expect it to go further into penetration. We just let the bodies touch and my skin was SCREAMING with joy and I just felt LOVE for him and myself at the same time. I just felt the touch - totally - just there, and the skin was responding as if it was the center of the universe and all pleasure in the world was gathered at that spot! No longing for any orgasm.

When I am in that presence I do not want anything. I just want to be there. And strangely, the breathing does not get excited. It is deep breathing. Also, he may be erected, but it is a soft erection. Firm, but still soft. The minute one of us starts expecting or wanting, the excitement comes and he gets a hard erection, I loose my deep breathing and we just stop. It doesn't feel right. I do not want that. So we lie still. Just still, and clean our minds again and *poff* we stay home and are in fantastic being. Before, I could get annoyed or a bit irritated that he didn't touch me exactly the right way... When we stay home, the way he touches me is PERFECT! Just perfect. He his a GOD. How can he not touch my perfect godess-body perfectly?

Once, when I touched his skin with my hand, I could feel every cell in my skin just open up and scream with joy and pleasure, and as a miracle, all cells in his skin being touched by my hand opened up and screamed the same way. It was a golden carbonic acid kind of feeling and I just said “It’s a miracle, it’s a miracle” and cried. There was no gap between us. It was male meeting female, it was body meeting body, and it was beautiful.

Coming back to the answer of my mind-question above... When penetration occurred in full presence, our bodies knew what to do. We did not move – our sex organs knew what to do. And there was movement inside and pleasure, but no orgasm. The in-and-out-thing was not necessary. We could be still, but the organs were moving and responding to each other. Fascinating.

Making love is today a very different thing from having sex. And I do not long for sex anymore. It is not wrong having sex. Perhaps I will have more sex in my life. But I have no longing for it. Now I know that when I stay home in a sexual situation, my body will do the right thing, and I will find tremendous pleasure. I will not leave my self when in a sexual situation. I will let love create whatever is meant to be created.

I do not say this is right or better than having sex the way I had sex before. It is only my truth about the difference between having sex for my own pleasure and letting the source make love with my body vehicle.

For me, it is purification. Leaving out thoughts, images and wantings that do not serve me any longer. I do not forbid myself anything. I do not DISLIKE sex. It is just not interesting to HAVE sex the way I used to and my body is showing me what to do when I am in silence.

So thank you all, for showing me the importance of SILENCE!

Go to Top of Page

Yonatan

Israel
849 Posts

Posted - Sep 01 2009 :  7:36:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
emc, it's beautiful, Love
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riptiz

United Kingdom
741 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  11:52:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit riptiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi EMC,
Well I never saw your post when it was originally posted but it would not have been apt for me then. Being on my own for one and a half years and celibate since my wife left, 3 months ago I met a lady on the net, we met and hit it off immediately.She is extremely interested in spirituality and I have taught her the joys of meditation etc. and we are now planning our life together.Strangely (or not) our lovemaking has been exactly as you described from the beginning, with the touching and stroking and less interest (at least for me) in orgasm and more interest in ensuring she is satisfied and enjoys the time we have.Several years ago I don't suppose this would have been the case so I guess it's all part of progress on the path and puts less pressure on me(as my libido wanes with age)to perform.Thanks for sharing.
L&L
Dave
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - Sep 02 2009 :  5:40:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
JDas, Yonatan and Riptiz, Thanks for your comments. I'm so glad for you, Riptiz!
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Ananda

3103 Posts

Posted - Mar 07 2013 :  3:59:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks a lot for sharing this amazing outpouring of your own self dear emc

I guess I've reached this state at a certain point but have failed to recognize it whereas my partner did... Even though it doesn't control me but there is still that lingering mental habit of wanting to perform the act of sex itself... Losing myself in that act... Yes it might be ego based... But in time it might change as everything has already...

namaste
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - Mar 15 2013 :  1:46:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Ananda!
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Ananda

3103 Posts

Posted - Mar 15 2013 :  2:12:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Emc, pardon my intrigue... But I am interested to know if your male partner was satisfied with this over the long term... It seems pretty much like doing another very hard thing to adjust with at first like tantric holdback... To be honest with the whole thing I am annoyed at this fact... But I need to learn or know if I am wrong... I don't know if you understand where I am standing... But after taking the effort to learn tantra and master it... My partner became non cooperative... Even though she used to yearn for this... But now she just have enough by doing so little... It's beautiful to kiss and touch and be with our lover but It just doesn't feel like enough without sex... This was the main reason behind me posting this topic http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=12660

Hope you understand my frustration about this whole subject...

Love,
Ananda
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JosephUK

United Kingdom
212 Posts

Posted - Mar 28 2013 :  3:31:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
EMC i am moved to read of the beauty of your post, and of your experience.

I am currently single and i have had difficulty with my sexual with my partners and never as defined by your explanation made love to a woman this way.

However now when i lay to meditate i experience the pull of "i want sex" the physical and non-lasting pleasure and what i can only describe as natural vajroli or the experience of a tantric sexual orgasmic ecstasy which feels pregnant with power.

thanks so much for your beautiful post.

joe
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vijikr

United Arab Emirates
408 Posts

Posted - May 11 2013 :  08:34:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
very beautiful well said emc thats pure love without lust..



Love n Light
Gayatri shiva
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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - May 14 2013 :  12:13:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you so much for your feed-back, ananda, JosephUK and vijikr! I wrote this so many years ago and at the time did not receive many comments, and I'm glad for yours now!

Ananda, thank you for your question. My experience is that it does not matter what the bodies do - little or much. What matters is to stay clear about when lust takes over. Then tantra is over. At least for me, they are mutually exclusive. When lust sneaks in, I'm just feeding the ego-identity instead. And it's so much more difficult in the beginning to go the whole way and have wild tantric sex without mixing it with self-centred lust. The habit of what "sex should look like" takes over really quick. So for me it's not about excluding any particular sexual activity. It's about staying clear about who I AM.
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Ananda

3103 Posts

Posted - May 19 2013 :  05:01:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you emc
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Evannon

USA
26 Posts

Posted - May 22 2013 :  2:58:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, I am truly impressed and inspired EMC! Having experienced similar things in solo meditation, I've wondered what might be possible with a partner. It sounds as if you and your partner must be incredibly well-synched if you both are in agreement about when you're both "home" in the present moment and when ego gets involved. Does it ever happen that you feel one of you has crossed the border into a more egotistical, anticipation-based "lust" but the other one says (or acts:) "No, I'm right here, this is perfect LOVE still!" ?? And if so, how do you negotiate that?

Also, I want to say that I've been fortunate to experience a similar distinction, but only in solo meditation, not with a partner. In deep meditation, it is ONLY when I let go of expectation/desire/anticipation and become fully conscious of the present moment, desiring nothing more, no objects of desire in my mind, yet aware of the ecstatic life-energy of the universe all around me and IN me (kundalini) that I can begin to allow that energy to flow THROUGH me. At times it only flows a little, giving some pleasure and a lot of peaceful stillness. That is enough; I feel connected, grounded, at peace, fearless. Other times it rushes through in a wild rush of ecstasy - I'm rock hard, my various chakras may pulse or spasm in their own orgasmic releases (though without full seminal ejaculation... sometimes there is "pre-cum.") These times are always astonishing - partly because they're so powerful, but mostly they're astonishing because they are UNANTICIPATED. It really is as if the energy is just doing what it needs to do through me. As soon as my own desires arise, they immediately get in the way and the experience subsides. (It really is a perplexing conundrum, because of course I "want" the ecstatic experience, but I have to give up wanting it in order to get it. There's a life lesson in there somewhere!) Whatever the experience, as long as I stay with the present moment, I come out the other side feeling connected, grounded, peaceful and fearless.

So here's the question your post prompts for me: Isn't THAT what is meant by TANTRIC sex? In other words, the way I thought the terms were defined, I would have said you're really having TANTRIC sex with your partner when you're fully present and egoless, and whatever you were experiencing before that (though it may have involved some "tantric" techniques) was really just a slightly more sophisticated and sensitive way of having conventional sex.

But - the terms don't really matter. We're all talking about building a deeper and more loving experience of our lives through a healthy integration of sexuality and spirituality, right? Thank you for the inspiring post!

Evannon
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maheswari

Lebanon
2333 Posts

Posted - May 22 2013 :  3:55:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
excellent post Evannon!
D
quote:
oes it ever happen that you feel one of you has crossed the border into a more egotistical, anticipation-based "lust" but the other one says (or acts:) "No, I'm right here, this is perfect LOVE still!" ?? And if so, how do you negotiate that

when this situation happens and one of the partners is not just there yet (more sex than tantra) the couple should talk to find a compromise....if no agreement is reached then better to separate...i am sure in that case the partner who is there (more tantra than sex) will find the separation not so difficult

as for for the paradox of having conventional sex and tantra at the same time...i think this paradox applies to the whole of yoga not only tantra.....we are an individual yet not an individual....it is sex but not sex it is more tantra...in the end the paradox will just fall by itself..
funny enough i just bumped into this quote which explains it all very well

"The ultimate end of spiritual endeavour is not only to merge oneself in the supreme Consciousness, but also to retain in a mysterious way a personal existence. How these contradictions can be reconciled is a mystery. Perhaps our poor intellect, which moves only in a limited sphere, cannot grasp this truth. The best thing is to realize that supreme state by performing the needed Sadhana and know for oneself by experience what that supreme attainment is."
- Swami Ramdas

Edited by - maheswari on May 22 2013 3:56:32 PM
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Ananda

3103 Posts

Posted - May 22 2013 :  4:40:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Evannon, funnily the question you asked was on my mind as well... I think If there is true love there will be compromise. It all just needs time to adjust to... 5 years back... I never imagined I could succeed in tantra like I am today... But here we are... Time to advance to a new phase as well... It's all gradual improvement.

In my case mentioned above, my drive was egotistic no doubt about it... Lust was in control of me and I lost myself in it and not in love for my partner.

Light and love,
Ananda
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Radharani

USA
843 Posts

Posted - May 24 2013 :  8:40:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Radharani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Evannon
(It really is a perplexing conundrum, because of course I "want" the ecstatic experience, but I have to give up wanting it in order to get it. There's a life lesson in there somewhere!) ...

So here's the question your post prompts for me: Isn't THAT what is meant by TANTRIC sex? In other words, the way I thought the terms were defined, I would have said you're really having TANTRIC sex with your partner when you're fully present and egoless, and whatever you were experiencing before that (though it may have involved some "tantric" techniques) was really just a slightly more sophisticated and sensitive way of having conventional sex.

But - the terms don't really matter. We're all talking about building a deeper and more loving experience of our lives through a healthy integration of sexuality and spirituality, right? Thank you for the inspiring post!

Evannon



Dear Evannon,

If the ecstasy is awesome now, just wait until it fills you constantly. and it will! there will no longer be any question of "wanting" anything.

re: definition of Tantra, I agree. There is a difference between practicing "tantric TECHNIQUES" versus being in the Tantric state, which is the integration of sex and spirituality, a bodily expression of the Love that holds the universe together.
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Radharani

USA
843 Posts

Posted - May 24 2013 :  8:44:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit Radharani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari

as for for the paradox of having conventional sex and tantra at the same time...i think this paradox applies to the whole of yoga not only tantra.....we are an individual yet not an individual....it is sex but not sex it is more tantra...in the end the paradox will just fall by itself..
funny enough i just bumped into this quote which explains it all very well

"The ultimate end of spiritual endeavour is not only to merge oneself in the supreme Consciousness, but also to retain in a mysterious way a personal existence. How these contradictions can be reconciled is a mystery. Perhaps our poor intellect, which moves only in a limited sphere, cannot grasp this truth. The best thing is to realize that supreme state by performing the needed Sadhana and know for oneself by experience what that supreme attainment is."
- Swami Ramdas


Agreed! that's how it is for me and my husband. I don't even really know how to have "non-tantric" sex anymore; everything is Tantra. But for me, the deepest state is reached when we are lying very STILL, breathing together, connected in meditation.
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maheswari

Lebanon
2333 Posts

Posted - May 25 2013 :  02:37:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
True Radhrani....lying very still is the peak of tantric experience. ..not the jumping all around in excitement. ..the latter is only the first and rather shallow layers of the experience
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Namath

350 Posts

Posted - May 25 2013 :  2:29:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
May I sat something that many won't like & just my opinion.

Sex is sex.

I've had sex that last all day long with previous fiance and later on ex boyfriend .It was only after coming to AYP I found out that we were naturally & unintentionally practicing tantric sex.Although none of them were spiritual seekers.

Allah...Inner Silence doesn't need sex you know!

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emc

2072 Posts

Posted - May 26 2013 :  08:56:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Evannon,

You wrote: "Does it ever happen that you feel one of you has crossed the border into a more egotistical, anticipation-based "lust" but the other one says (or acts:) "No, I'm right here, this is perfect LOVE still!" ?? And if so, how do you negotiate that?"

I can only answer from my limited experience from a few former tantric partners, and don't know if it's true in any general sense at all. It has absolutely happened that one is in full presence, while the other is "sinking in frequency" into ego-identification. If the one holding the space can do that for the other without being drawn down, it's beautiful. A lot of healing usually takes place, cleaning the sex/lust in the more low frequent partner. I seldom, if ever, experience that I am more into lust than my partner if he is able to hold space. I easily tune in and rest with him. Should we both lose ourselves, the body usually protests with stiffness, or a cleansing takes place rather quickly by itself - emotions coming up, ending the act. Feels like there's very little choice. And no compromise. I find it difficult to compromise with Truth. Either I'm lost in illusion and ego-identification/separation. Or there is resting in What Is. For me, the two perspectives are mutually exclusive. And the latter includes the "both"-thing: we are Life AS individuals.
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