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 Discussions on AYP Deep Meditation and Samyama
 Refinement of mantra
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AmyElda

USA
2 Posts

Posted - Nov 08 2019 :  9:31:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
Hi there,

Ive been lurking on this forum for a while. A while ago I read something, I think written by Christi, about how the mantra might change during your meditation but this is different than refinement. Can someone speak to this and explain what exactly is meant by each word? Refinement vs. changing of the mantra.

kumar ul islam

United Kingdom
694 Posts

Posted - Nov 09 2019 :  09:42:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
for me the refinement is like an echo ,at first you continually make the internal sound the mantra ,after a while you hear the echo because your not making the sound and then the silence ,and it goes on, doing ,listening ,silence ,the mantra does not change as such its still ayam or whichever one you use but it becomes part of the stream ,its like thinking of an apple my apple has red spots yours maybe a pale green but its still an apple with appleness i hope that makes sense
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Christi

United Kingdom
3610 Posts

Posted - Nov 10 2019 :  02:54:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Amy,

Welcome to the forums.

I have written in the past about the difference between the mantra changing and the mantra refining. The mantra changing into a different mantra, means that it becomes a different word. So, if AYAM become AYEEM or AIYEM, then it has changed into a different mantra. If that happens, then when we notice we are off the mantra, we come back to the mantra again. In other words, we would come back to AYAM.

The mantra refining is different. It means that the mantra becomes fuzzier and less clearly pronounced. If this is happening, then we can allow it to happen. It is a natural part of the process of the mind coming to stillness and silence. If it is happening, and we are losing the mantra at times during meditation, then when we realize we have lost the mantra, we come back to it at the same level of fuzziness and lack of clarity that it was at when we lost it. So, there is a natural progression inward towards silence.

In practice when I am teaching, I find that it is very rare for people to experience the mantra turning into a different mantra, and needing to correct that. However, the refinement of the mantra is very common, especially for long-term practitioners.

The mantras used in AYP are used for their sound vibration only. So, the actual meanings of the mantras are not important. They are however all Sanskrit words, with meanings.

The full AYP mantra is: SHREE OM SHREE OM AYAM AYAM NAMAH NAMAH.

The meanings are:


  • SHREE: Shining or radiating an inner light.


  • OM: The primordial sound of the universe/ creation. A sound which can be heard in deep states of meditation.


  • AYAM: This.


  • NAMAH: That is revered/ honoured.




You may find this lesson useful. It covers the ways in which the different AYP mantras work:

Lesson 188 - Mantra Design 101


Christi
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Blanche

USA
582 Posts

Posted - Nov 10 2019 :  07:36:50 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Replacing the I AM/AYAM mantra with another word means that we are not with the mantra, and when we notice this we easily come back to the mantra.

Christi describes very well how the mantra refines.

Mantra also changes during each session, and from session to session. The mantra is sometimes fast and sometimes slow, with some longer or shorter pauses. Sometimes the mantra is very quiet and sometimes is very loud. There have been times when, as the meditation time approached, the mantra became so loud that it was hard to hear anything else and the vision became blurry. Nothing to worry about these effects disappeared after the meditation session.

When we say that we meditate, we may expect that we control the process. In many ways, meditation is like the settling of the water in a glass. We cannot actively stop the movements of the water in the glass. The more we move the glass or interfere in the process, the more the water will move. The only way for the water to settle is to stop touching the glass. If we simply allow it, the water will settle and come to stillness. The same with the mind: If we simply allow the mantra to go as it may, without as imposing a rhythm, a volume, a level of clarity or fuzziness, the process of purification will proceed in the most effective way, and the mind will naturally come to a place of stillness.
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Stille

Germany
47 Posts

Posted - Nov 10 2019 :  2:20:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Great thread and great answers
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AmyElda

USA
2 Posts

Posted - Nov 10 2019 :  8:34:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you everyone!!

Another forum on mantra mediation that I lurk on is maintained by a former TM teacher and he said this about this topic....

"One way to answer your question a little more directly is to note that the mental pronunciation of a mantra tends to change from time to time spontaneously. The insertion of an additional sound is an example of a possible modification. If such a modification happens by itself, spontaneously, it does not reduce the effectiveness of the mantra in any way (it actually increases the effectiveness, which is why it happens). Such changes in pronunciation might last a few seconds, or recur in many meditation sessions. In all such cases we take it as it comes, not minding if the mantra changes to something else and not minding if it changes back again."

So, according to the way you teach this technique Christi, the above statement is incorrect?
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Christi

United Kingdom
3610 Posts

Posted - Nov 11 2019 :  06:12:50 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by AmyElda

Thank you everyone!!

Another forum on mantra mediation that I lurk on is maintained by a former TM teacher and he said this about this topic....

"One way to answer your question a little more directly is to note that the mental pronunciation of a mantra tends to change from time to time spontaneously. The insertion of an additional sound is an example of a possible modification. If such a modification happens by itself, spontaneously, it does not reduce the effectiveness of the mantra in any way (it actually increases the effectiveness, which is why it happens). Such changes in pronunciation might last a few seconds, or recur in many meditation sessions. In all such cases we take it as it comes, not minding if the mantra changes to something else and not minding if it changes back again."

So, according to the way you teach this technique Christi, the above statement is incorrect?



Hi Amy,

That statement is about Transcendental Meditation (TM), not about AYP Deep Meditation. They are different meditation techniques, so we need to be careful about taking something written about one technique and applying it to another.

In AYP Deep Meditation, whenever we realize that we are off the mantra, we come back to the mantra again. So, it is a very simple technique, which works the same way for everyone, going all the way in.

As we practice, the mantra will refine and changes take place during that process. Eventually it will refine to stillness (samadhi). During the process of refinement, at some point it becomes impossible to say if it is one sound or another. It can even become a continuous stream of sound. But if we are operating at a level of mind where we can distinguish an actual sound, and that sound is different from the mantra, then we come back to the mantra again.

This is a quote from Yogani writing on this subject:


"If pronunciation is faint and fuzzy (non-pronounceable) when we come back to the mantra, then we stay with that and it will refine further from there into stillness. If we come back and pronunciation is clear enough to where we can distinguish (pronounce) another sound that is different from I AM, then we favor I AM. In other words, we treat any other recognizable (conscious) sound in the mind like any other thought and favor I AM.

When the mantra is faint and fuzzy, we don't have to labor over whether it is refined I AM or refined something else. We just go with it and transcend. Over time the whole process becomes automatic at all levels in the mind." [Yogani]


and again:

"When the mantra is refining, ... we let it change however it will. But when we find ourselves back in surface thoughts (clear pronunciation), then we easily favor the I AM mantra over any other thought that we have noticed we are thinking, including some other mantra. When it is refining, and changing to a faint a fuzzy feeling, then we can pick it up at that refined level of feeling whatever it is. But when we are in the realm of clear pronunciation, we favor the I AM mantra (or whatever enhancement we are doing) over any other thought.

If we did not do this, the procedure would not be AYP deep meditation. It would be, "Start with I AM and then use any thought that happens to come up as your mantra after that." With that approach, any thought that popped up would be fair game to use as the mantra. That's not the AYP procedure." [Yogani]



Christi

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Blanche

USA
582 Posts

Posted - Nov 11 2019 :  06:38:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
This statement is also correct. If we change the mantra, that is just a deviation from the practice, as Christi explains. If the mantra changes by itself, then this is part of the process of refinement. This may seem like a small difference, but it is fundamental, and it is obvious with practice.

Lets say that we want to drive north. If we just pick up the north direction on our compass and start to drive in that direction in disregard of roads, we will find that we run into problems right away, and progress is difficult. This is similar with us imposing the course of the mantra. However, if we start following the roads in the general north direction, and we continue driving on the road even when the road turns to east, south, and west at times, we will make faster progress toward north. This second case is like following the mantra and allowing it to change and refine as it may.

The TM teacher mentions the insertion of other sounds in the mantra. This is another level of refinement, where the mantra refines to sound. Compared with this level, all the changes and refinements of the mantra discussed above are external. As mantra refines to sound, the complexity of the sound, the pitch and intensity could still adjust from practice to practice, as well as during a single practice. The experience of the mantra changes: At the beginning, the mantra becomes gradually a distinct one point, then a thread that we follow, a road, a wide river, and keeps expanding gradually to include everything it is everything. Much more could be said, but the best advice remains to practice and see for yourself.
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Dogboy

USA
1653 Posts

Posted - Nov 11 2019 :  10:15:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
At the beginning, the mantra becomes gradually a distinct one point, then a thread that we follow, a road, a wide river, and keeps expanding gradually to include everything it is everything. Much more could be said, but the best advice remains to practice and see for yourself.


This happened to me.
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Blanche

USA
582 Posts

Posted - Nov 11 2019 :  6:47:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dogboy
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