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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  1:02:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
In another thread, there has been a discussion on stages of progression (especially related to the “rainbow/light body”). While much of the path is beyond mind and words, at each “level” there are changes/things that everyone can understand. It is also not the same for everyone, but the following stages are "tradition/system independent" and a common progression. The following information is compiled from discussions with 4 self-declared “enlightened” individuals, 2 primordial (Dzogchen-like) masters and my own experience.

1 Normal State – Wandering mind. Some will often have 3-6 (or more) threads/dialogs of thought jumping around. Nothing is usually noticed regarding “energy”. Sometimes sense of hot/cold.

2 Temporary One Thread – In meditation, one quiets to one focused thread (as in mantra or concentration). At this state, one may begin to notice energy (if looking for it) and it often begin to feel like tingles or vibrations in the body.

3 Temporary quiet mind – One can begin to see/trace thoughts. Can feel the “movement” of energy and notice chakras.

4 Stable quiet meditation – One can perceive the nature/energy of mind. Can perceive astral experiences. Begin to notice “obstructions” in the flow of energy. Feel/see chakras in energy body. With practice, can begin to see auras.

5 Expansion of quiet mind to normal life – One begins to “see themselves” doing things. An example is seeing yourself getting angry, but can’t stop yourself. Significant control over energy flows. Become more resistant to sickness.

6 Quiet mind in life – Usually only one thread going, sometimes no threads. Can see and stop yourself from getting angry. All chakras open. The chakras start to “merge”. Less distinct chakra feeling. Can consciously perceive energy in others and surroundings.

7 Calm mind – No real thoughts unless there is something to do/decide. Meditation and life are the same. Body/mind energy field integrates and collapses. No meaningful energy feeling. Often described as nothingness or perceiving "consciousness/awareness". Many stop here and declare victory.

8 Noticing Oneness – Something “tickles” the calm mind. Curiosity returns. Begin to break beyond the local body-mind. Begin to perceive “light” (spiritual/cosmic/existence) energy. Energy body feels like every cell is vibrating in harmony. Level of "soul", in Christian/Islamic terms.

9 See Oneness – Feels like every soul is inside you. Begin integration with existence. Perceive/feel "light" energy and that it is all one. No longer perceive/worry about astral stuff.

10 Oneness – Can feel everyone. Begin building rainbow/light body. Beyond astral perception. On the astral level, the light body looks like a blob/ball of light. Can connect/merge/oneness to any being and send transmit “light” (energy/knowledge). Directly contact light bodies of divine beings.

11 Oneness beyond time – Can perceive parallel realities and beyond time. More powerful light body. Feel/contact parallel versions of your self. Access/effect Karma. Contact “higher” divine beings. Subconsciously feel primordial state/God/Tau/Emptiness.

12 Primordial State – Level of Prophets/Buddhas. Completion of rainbow/light body. Being "one with God/Emptiness". Depending on your perspective, gone or do whatever you want.

Hope you find this helpful (or at least interesting).

(edit - removed redundant definitions)

Edited by - jeff on Jan 21 2013 4:29:25 PM

Bodhi Tree

2972 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  6:49:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow. I really like this. I can certainly relate to various stages of that trajectory. Thank you for this, Jeff.
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 22 2013 :  09:06:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Bodhi,

Glad to hear it resonates and you have found it useful.

Best wishes, Jeff
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  01:47:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for sharing this Jeff.

I can remember going through each of the stages up to stage 7, and then beyond that I have experienced parts of some of the other stages, but not all of them as you have described them. For example...

8. The local body/mind is very obviously not a "barrier" any longer... but I definitely don't feel like every cell is vibrating in harmony all the time. I know what you are describing there, but that is definitely not a constant experience for me.

9. I no longer percieve or worry about astral stuff at all. It's all readily available, but there is no longer any interest. I do not however feel like every soul is inside me. There is an obvious connection with all of life, but I wouldn't say that I know what it feels like to feel every soul is inside me.

10. On the astral level I have seen (and been) a ball of light, and I have seen full light figures as well, but I have never been a full light figure. I do not however seem to have the ability to contact (by which I assume you mean 'communicate with' correct?) the light bodies of divine beings. Can't say that I have tried though either. I also can't say that I feel *everyone*, but I can say, that people I meet almost always leave an "impression" and once I've met them, even for just a few seconds, I can connect to them at any time and they feel (at that time) like they are a part of "me."

11. I have definitely perceived parallel realities, and in fact I just about got stuck in one. I have also seen "my karma" but I don't know that I can "effect" karma (perhaps I'm just thinking about the word "effect" differently than you??). The rest of this "level" I really can't say I have any experience with. Same with #12.

Thanks again for the concise layout. It was neat to read and confirm that in many ways I've experienced the stages as you have laid them out.

Love!
Carson
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  11:52:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson,

Thanks for sharing and it is good to hear that you have found most of it to be similar.

Your comments also raise a good question, that maybe I should have been a little more clear about. Once one can percieve at the astral level, it is possible to go pretty much anywhere and I didn't mean to imply that one needed the "light" for other worlds. The difference is really more "being" vs. "seeing". When one reaches "oneness", they increasingly know the are everyone/everything. Since they truly "know", they can share presence (or be), just like Christi described in the Buddhist thread with "light" transmission.

On point 8... By moving past the local body/mind, again I meant as a sense of "being", extending your presence and "feel it".

On 9... To me this is a healthy attitude to have. Visiting astral stuff is really just "mind games" with yourself and as you said, it is easy to get lost/confused. On feeling, try an experiment some time... Imagine someone else's heart overlayed with yours, see if you can feel the heart beat.

On 10... Have you ever "noticed" light/energy radiating from the blobs of light? That is usually an early sign.

Always good to talk to you.

Best wishes, Jeff

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AumNaturel

Canada
687 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  12:49:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,
interesting layout on the stages of progression, thank you for it.

Some thoughts at a glance: the 'mental' development in my experience has not exactly followed along so neatly with the energetic one. For example, I can often trace thoughts (#3) to their point of origin by following the triggers after they were let to run their course. This sometimes extends to dreams (if the idea is unique enough to isolate), where one brief thought or association in ordinary life plays out a portion of the dream or its content. For example, last night it was a thought on the career fair, with one dream taking place there.

In the same way, moods, emotions, feelings, intuition, reason, and choices are more along a continuum learning from one another and to work together in harmony (#5, #6, & #7 at times where it feels natural). It is about finding a point of least resistance, a flow, or coherence among the limitations of everyday reality, more than a struggle to come to terms with the ordinary state of waking sleep. More specifically, it is about making the most out of a collection of 'separate' elements as they interact. I tend to categorize them as internal (body, mind, subtle body, and transpersonal), external (principles/limitations of nature as currently used/understood), and intermediate (social fabrications); the latter happens to be a great amplifier of both positives and negatives, exerting at least some influence on everyone's experience, willingly or not.

My few observations of others confirm this as well. It seems there is no trend directly connecting the energetic sensitivity with those of stillness/insight. At the very least, the development of one does not always coincide with the other, even if they do depend on one another. Maybe it is a matter of obstructions and ripeness favoring one side earlier than the other, giving this impression. Either way, approaching them both in practice can only help minimize the discrepancy.
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  1:06:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Aumnatural,

I would agree. I did not mean to imply that everyone experiences everything at all of the "levels". I was just trying to give a few possible road signs that some may identify with. I also may have been a little "energy heavy" in my descriptions as this thread started a discussion on the rainbow/light body.

Many traditions like Buddhism, do not really acknowledge the concept of energy/light until stage 8. Also, I just created stages in the description for usefulness. The process is really multidimensional and different for every one.

Personally, I think the best definitions are just found in the description of normal daily life. But when you say that you feel "peace & joy", the words can have a huge range of percieved meaning.

Thanks, Jeff
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  2:44:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

quote:
Originally posted by jeff

Once one can percieve at the astral level, it is possible to go pretty much anywhere and I didn't mean to imply that one needed the "light" for other worlds. The difference is really more "being" vs. "seeing". When one reaches "oneness", they increasingly know the are everyone/everything. Since they truly "know", they can share presence (or be), just like Christi described in the Buddhist thread with "light" transmission.


Haven't been following the Buddhist thread much (nowhere close to building a rainbow body, and need to "stick around" for many more years, for my kids sake if not my own, ) so I can't really comment there, but I have noticed that the ability to "share Presence" comes when there are no longer any "threads" that are not directly serving a purpose. When the mind is quiet and clear there is nothing stopping Presence from being (at least close to) 100%. In my experience Presence still deepens after this point, but it is not due to the mind being quieter than before but instead sharing presence becomes a palpable energetic exchange that is deeper than just "quiet mind Presence" if that makes any sense.

On the difference between "being" and "seeing," to me it sounds like you are making the distinction between "mental knowing" and "heart knowing." Mental knowing (not "believing" but actually knowing) is more like "seeing" reality and heart knowing is more like "being reality." At least that's how I interpret what you have said.

quote:
Originally posted by jeff

On point 8... By moving past the local body/mind, again I meant as a sense of "being", extending your presence and "feel it".


Sorry, thought you were meaning that moving beyond the local body mind was meaning that the body mind is no longer a barrier to experience. Meaning one can experience things (physical/mental/energetic and more) that are not in physical proximity to the local body/mind.

quote:
Originally posted by jeff

On feeling, try an experiment some time... Imagine someone else's heart overlayed with yours, see if you can feel the heart beat.


I felt what I would call a "pulse" when I try this, but I would tend to assume that this is the "life energy" pulse not the actual heart pulse.

quote:
Originally posted by jeff

On 10... Have you ever "noticed" light/energy radiating from the blobs of light? That is usually an early sign.


The balls of light that I have seen and been do not have a tight defined edge to them, there is a brilliant bright white center that fades out in all directions. Similar to what I posted in this post here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=754#106693 when I go looking for the edge of the light ball I get "lost" and no longer see anything but "The One" (meaning everything becomes "the light" and I have to purposely shift perspectives in order to start seeing "normally" again).

Lots of Love!
Carson
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  6:38:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson,

Sound like we are on the same page. The minds thinks/believes, the heart is/knows.

On the experiment... Everything is basically energy. Your choice to mind "translate" it into physical sensation or not.

Very cool on looking at the light. I would also agree on the lack of a hard edge. For me, it kind of like a wave/pulse like radiation.

Best, Jeff
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AumNaturel

Canada
687 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  9:39:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Jeff, likewise I didn't get any impression that the stages were at all 'energy heavy.' The way you organized it is compelling. Same goes for your 'four main types of energy/light' topic, especially since they are from your experiences or of those of others you have talked to.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jan 25 2013 :  8:12:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
#9. .... Feels like every soul is inside you.....

I had an experience as I walked into work this evening. I walked past someone's desk who I have never met, but see visually several times a month as I walk past their desk to mine. This person was not at their desk today when I walked in, but as I saw their name on their cubicle plaque I was suddenly struck with the realization that this person is "inside me." Not that there is any "me" or that there is any "inside," but I could "feel" this person very palpably and it was like they are a part of me, or that we are one. This is not a new experience for me (feeling another inside) but this is the first time that I have noticed it with someone I have never actually met or talked to. Usually this ability to feel another inside myself only happens after we have exchanged energy in some way. That has never happened with this person (other than a few brief times where we exchanged eye contact) before. Perhaps the ability to sense that another and I are "one" is becoming more pronounced as is requiring less and less of an energy transfer to stimulate this connection?

Is that how things progressed for you Jeff?

Thanks!
Love,
Carson
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faileforever

USA
190 Posts

Posted - Jan 25 2013 :  8:28:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Very neat Carson
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maheswari

Lebanon
2516 Posts

Posted - Jan 26 2013 :  01:57:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
nice Carson!
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 26 2013 :  11:06:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Carson,

Thank you for sharing. Very beautiful.

Yes, very similar. As the "obstructions" of the perceived "you" are released, one usually first feels the natural energy flow/exchange with "others". Then, usually you move on to find that "distance" doesn't matter. Then, in insights like you described, you realize that there really is "no place to go" or the "inside" is really the same as the "outside". That is what I call beginning to see "oneness".

Best wishes, Jeff
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jan 26 2013 :  4:55:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Jeff, Mahe, Faile....

It's very interesting... since reading this thread there has been a very slight, albiet noticeable, shift in perspective here.

This morning when I sat for meditation I had an experience the same as above, but not with a person, with an event. I have a big 6hr presentation to give to all the senior execs of my company in just 10 days and I have been working on this presentation for about a month now and just finished putting together all the materials for it two days ago. Today, when I was sitting in meditation I had a sudden flash of knowing regarding how the presentation is going to go. And I realized that I have had several smaller/shorter flashes of knowing previously as well but had not "recognized" them as such. In the flash today I had a certain knowing that the presentation is going to be delivered well and will be well received.... it's like I have already seen and experienced the event that is 10 days away from now.

It's funny to me the stuff that causes shifting of perspective. It can be as dramatic as a suicide attempt and as simple as reading some words on a forum.

Love!
Carson

P.S. After reading this I had a thought come up that asked if there is a chance that talking about this has changed the already perceived outcome of the presentation.... I hope that isn't the case.
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maheswari

Lebanon
2516 Posts

Posted - Jan 27 2013 :  05:31:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
After reading this I had a thought come up that asked if there is a chance that talking about this has changed the already perceived outcome of the presentation.... I hope that isn't the case.

off course it is not the case.....the unfoldment of events is already set and it is gona be very well
personally i dont have flashes yet sometimes i know/feel things how they are going to unfold
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BuddhiHermit

United Kingdom
84 Posts

Posted - Sep 14 2013 :  11:24:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit BuddhiHermit's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Carson, I have always had plenty of these, and they always arrive as advertised. The only way to change it is not to go. If you go, it will happen that way - something to do with the nature of free will. Someone once said that freedom and karma can be seen like this: You have the freedom to lift either your right foot, or your left foot. Once you have acted on your choice, you lose the freedom to lift the other leg as well/ or instead of - unless you start over again. (I understand it went well)

Jeff, no doubt you already know how very similar these are to the Buddhist Jhanas/Dhyanas.

Namaste
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Sep 14 2013 :  3:37:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by BuddhiHermit

)
Jeff, no doubt you already know how very similar these are to the Buddhist Jhanas/Dhyanas.

Namaste



Buddhahermit,

Though I did not come to it from a buddhist perspective, I do realize that they are very similar. Though, since Buddhism doesn't focus on energy until the later states, it makes it harder to do a direct mapping to the Jhanas. Also, as one reaches the higher Jhanas they realize that the earlier ones were kind of misleading. (As an example from the perspective of the 8th, there is no such thing as the 1st.) All of which can make old translated sutra a little challenging.

Best wishes.
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Yogaman

USA
295 Posts

Posted - Dec 05 2013 :  04:15:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for sharing this, very helpful.
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Dec 09 2013 :  7:21:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Yogaman

Thanks for sharing this, very helpful.



Glad you found it helpful.

Best wishes,
Jeff
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Will Power

Spain
415 Posts

Posted - Apr 25 2014 :  12:01:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Very beautiful, thank you for sharing Jeff
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digofarias

Brazil
63 Posts

Posted - May 11 2014 :  12:46:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Nice post Jeff, but I can't put myself into one specific level. I'd say I'm in level 3 but there are many things from other levels going on here. For example, I can notice obstructions (level 4) and I do something to clean it and I can see a whitish substance around objects and people's head/body but I can't see chakras and absolutely NO astral experience here whatsoever. I can also see myself getting angry and stop it (level 6) but there are still impurities to be released. I'm also beginning to develop a thoughtless state (level 7) where meditation and life are the same and I can notice All is one especially when I'm into this thoughtless state as this is the way things are when looked at without the lenses of mind.

Rod

quote:
Originally posted by jeff

In another thread, there has been a discussion on stages of progression (especially related to the “rainbow/light body”). While much of the path is beyond mind and words, at each “level” there are changes/things that everyone can understand. It is also not the same for everyone, but the following stages are "tradition/system independent" and a common progression. The following information is compiled from discussions with 4 self-declared “enlightened” individuals, 2 primordial (Dzogchen-like) masters and my own experience.

1 Normal State – Wandering mind. Some will often have 3-6 (or more) threads/dialogs of thought jumping around. Nothing is usually noticed regarding “energy”. Sometimes sense of hot/cold.

2 Temporary One Thread – In meditation, one quiets to one focused thread (as in mantra or concentration). At this state, one may begin to notice energy (if looking for it) and it often begin to feel like tingles or vibrations in the body.

3 Temporary quiet mind – One can begin to see/trace thoughts. Can feel the “movement” of energy and notice chakras.

4 Stable quiet meditation – One can perceive the nature/energy of mind. Can perceive astral experiences. Begin to notice “obstructions” in the flow of energy. Feel/see chakras in energy body. With practice, can begin to see auras.

5 Expansion of quiet mind to normal life – One begins to “see themselves” doing things. An example is seeing yourself getting angry, but can’t stop yourself. Significant control over energy flows. Become more resistant to sickness.

6 Quiet mind in life – Usually only one thread going, sometimes no threads. Can see and stop yourself from getting angry. All chakras open. The chakras start to “merge”. Less distinct chakra feeling. Can consciously perceive energy in others and surroundings.

7 Calm mind – No real thoughts unless there is something to do/decide. Meditation and life are the same. Body/mind energy field integrates and collapses. No meaningful energy feeling. Often described as nothingness or perceiving "consciousness/awareness". Many stop here and declare victory.

8 Noticing Oneness – Something “tickles” the calm mind. Curiosity returns. Begin to break beyond the local body-mind. Begin to perceive “light” (spiritual/cosmic/existence) energy. Energy body feels like every cell is vibrating in harmony. Level of "soul", in Christian/Islamic terms.

9 See Oneness – Feels like every soul is inside you. Begin integration with existence. Perceive/feel "light" energy and that it is all one. No longer perceive/worry about astral stuff.

10 Oneness – Can feel everyone. Begin building rainbow/light body. Beyond astral perception. On the astral level, the light body looks like a blob/ball of light. Can connect/merge/oneness to any being and send transmit “light” (energy/knowledge). Directly contact light bodies of divine beings.

11 Oneness beyond time – Can perceive parallel realities and beyond time. More powerful light body. Feel/contact parallel versions of your self. Access/effect Karma. Contact “higher” divine beings. Subconsciously feel primordial state/God/Tau/Emptiness.

12 Primordial State – Level of Prophets/Buddhas. Completion of rainbow/light body. Being "one with God/Emptiness". Depending on your perspective, gone or do whatever you want.

Hope you find this helpful (or at least interesting).

(edit - removed redundant definitions)

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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - May 12 2014 :  08:23:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Rod,

Thanks for sharing. Yes, "levels" were really more meant as a general framework. All spiritual development is multidimensional, so some will skip (or not notice) some aspects. Also, as you have said, there will be overlap.

From your description, it sounds like good things are happening.

Best,
Jeff
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - May 12 2014 :  11:55:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by kami

quote:
Originally posted by jeff

Hi Rod,

Thanks for sharing. Yes, "levels" were really more meant as a general framework. All spiritual development is multidimensional, so some will skip (or not notice) some aspects. Also, as you have said, there will be overlap.

From your description, it sounds like good things are happening.

Best,
Jeff



What "stage" would you say you are in?

Thanks.



Any such "self judgement" is the ego's playground. I just know that there is no such thing as done.

Enjoy the moment (and the day)!
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - May 12 2014 :  2:29:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kami,

As I stated in the OP, at the time I wrote it, it was a combination of my own experience and a few that I respect/trust. And, as I am sure you know (and many of the AYP members can attest), I am not really into books, pop culture teachers and theoretical stuff. I must prefer the "direct" approach... diving deep, not intellectualism...

Best regards,
Jeff
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - May 13 2014 :  10:02:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kami,

Happy to answer and share.

The concept and meaning of the "rainbow body" is easier to understand with some broader framework of ongoing spiritual development. For those who are interested, I have attempted to give some of that overview in the Riju & Jeff thread related to the later/completion stages (emptiness of ultimate reality).

After one has realized the emptiness of self, they have collapsed the local chakra system and it becomes sort of an "unified field". That unified field is the beginning of what is called the "light body" or in some traditions the "body of truth". As one continues to drop obstructions, the light body increasing integrates into "perceived reality" or from the individual perspective, the light body is seen to grow and stabilize. The term "rainbow" relates to increasing depth (or refinement) of the light. Similar to how light looks white/clear, but when hitting a prism, we see at a deeper level it is actually a full spectrum of color.

Each human body has sort a "limit" of how much integration/light it can hold before breaking down(destabilizing) into its light component particles. Depending on the tradition, one either wants to "leave/ascend" as soon as possible (classic immortal path) or wants to "stay" as long as the physical body is capable of supporting the light flows. Staying as long as possible is usually preferred by those who follow a Buddha or Christ path, as with such a divine being, the light flows though into the physical plane, helping to clarify/process karma for beings.

On teachers... Let's just say, I think many are more in the "business" of spiritual advancement then truly knowledgable themselves. In my experience, if one "knows" they can explain/show in simple terms.

Regarding, my personal practices... Currently, I mostly just "reside" and notice the flow. The last few years I have also done a fair amount of exploring universal mind.

Regarding recommendations... I don't think there is a "one size fits all" particularly when you get to the deeper levels. All spiritual growth is infinitely dimensional. But, on an individual level, I am always happy to share my perspective.

Finally, my comments here and in the Riju thread are my personal sharings and not from any book (or sutra). Others mileage may vary, but whenever possible I have included friends (some AYP members) for independent verification.

Best wishes,
Jeff
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