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TensorTympani
USA
69 Posts |
 Posted - Nov 09 2023 : 4:36:34 PM
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In older posts in this forum discussing siddhis, one reads statements like "Once you can levitate you don't care about it anymore, and you loose all interest to convince other people of its reality", or "If I could levitate I would still use an airplane. So why bother learning levitation."
I feel that arguing in such ways misses an important point. If I knew that "real" siddhis existed, I would feel the imperative to make this knowledge available. I see many good reasons for why humanity has a right to know, but one aspect that I haven't seen discussed here is that real siddhis (if they existed) would revolutionise our understanding of the universe, leading to the biggest paradigm shift in fundamental physics, and likely give rise to new applications and technologies that might have the potential to increase the life quality of humanity and the whole planet.
By real siddhi I mean a human capability that is incompatible with our current understanding of fundamental physics. Examples of real siddhis are levitation, telekinesis, remote viewing, telepathy, remote healing (in excess of the placebo effect). Such real siddhis are to be contrasted with what one might call "plausibly compatible" siddhis such as the ability to experience bliss and ecstasy, or to regulate body temperature and other physiological properties within ones own body through pure will power. Plausibly compatible siddhis might or might not require nature to operate in ways incompatible with our current understanding of physics. Since they are plausibly compatible with our current understanding of nature they would not have the impact of real siddhis. As an example, if someone demonstrates the ability to regulate body temperature with pure will power, it's impressive but doesn't necessarily require a revolution in physics since this capability is plausibly compatible with the current theories of fundamental physics (just like consciousness itself is plausibly compatible). This is in contrast to real siddhis, which are definitely incompatible with our current understanding of nature. If there would be mounting evidence for such real siddhis (e.g. if all yogis with that capability would come forward and let themselves by studied by the scientific community) it would lead to a revolution of our most fundamental theories of nature. This means a deeper knowledge of nature and consequently the potential for new technology.
Let me give you a colorful example. If levitation/telekinesis was real, and all yogis with that siddhi would come forward in an organised manner to share their insights with the world, we might after studying them and figuring out the new physics behind it, come up with new propulsion systems (for machines, cars, boats, aircrafts and space ships) that might possibly (depending on the physics behind this levitation/telekinesis) reduce our carbon footprint and safe the planet from a climate crisis.
There is some scientific literature of case studies of people with such real siddhis, and also searches for siddhis like telepathy and remote viewing in the general population. But the combined evidence is not strong enough to sway the scientific community's believe. This is a combination of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (a.k.a., the Sagan standard) and the many failed attempts of replicating such evidence by peer researches. I think an organised effort of many yogis coming forward with real siddhis could change this situation.
So, if you believe you have such "real" siddhis, I suggest you come forward and organise yourself with other yogis to demonstrate your abilities to the scientific community. If I was in this position I would consider this my moral obligation since I would possibly hold the key to a scientific revolution that has the potential to help humanity and the planet in unconceivable ways.
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Edited by - TensorTympani on Nov 09 2023 4:55:53 PM |
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dcame
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - Nov 09 2023 : 10:27:21 PM
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| The argument also goes in the other direction: there is a moral imperative to keep quiet about the siddhis, in order to prevent them getting into the hands of criminals and warmongers. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4377 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2023 : 08:51:40 AM
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quote:
In older posts in this forum discussing siddhis, one reads statements like "Once you can levitate you don't care about it anymore, and you loose all interest to convince other people of its reality", or "If I could levitate I would still use an airplane. So why bother learning levitation."
I feel that arguing in such ways misses an important point. If I knew that "real" siddhis existed, I would feel the imperative to make this knowledge available. I see many good reasons for why humanity has a right to know, but one aspect that I haven't seen discussed here is that real siddhis (if they existed) would revolutionise our understanding of the universe, leading to the biggest paradigm shift in fundamental physics, and likely give rise to new applications and technologies that might have the potential to increase the life quality of humanity and the whole planet.
By real siddhi I mean a human capability that is incompatible with our current understanding of fundamental physics. Examples of real siddhis are levitation, telekinesis, remote viewing, telepathy, remote healing (in excess of the placebo effect). Such real siddhis are to be contrasted with what one might call "plausibly compatible" siddhis such as the ability to experience bliss and ecstasy, or to regulate body temperature and other physiological properties within ones own body through pure will power. Plausibly compatible siddhis might or might not require nature to operate in ways incompatible with our current understanding of physics. Since they are plausibly compatible with our current understanding of nature they would not have the impact of real siddhis. As an example, if someone demonstrates the ability to regulate body temperature with pure will power, it's impressive but doesn't necessarily require a revolution in physics since this capability is plausibly compatible with the current theories of fundamental physics (just like consciousness itself is plausibly compatible). This is in contrast to real siddhis, which are definitely incompatible with our current understanding of nature. If there would be mounting evidence for such real siddhis (e.g. if all yogis with that capability would come forward and let themselves by studied by the scientific community) it would lead to a revolution of our most fundamental theories of nature. This means a deeper knowledge of nature and consequently the potential for new technology.
Let me give you a colorful example. If levitation/telekinesis was real, and all yogis with that siddhi would come forward in an organised manner to share their insights with the world, we might after studying them and figuring out the new physics behind it, come up with new propulsion systems (for machines, cars, boats, aircrafts and space ships) that might possibly (depending on the physics behind this levitation/telekinesis) reduce our carbon footprint and safe the planet from a climate crisis.
There is some scientific literature of case studies of people with such real siddhis, and also searches for siddhis like telepathy and remote viewing in the general population. But the combined evidence is not strong enough to sway the scientific community's believe. This is a combination of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (a.k.a., the Sagan standard) and the many failed attempts of replicating such evidence by peer researches. I think an organised effort of many yogis coming forward with real siddhis could change this situation.
So, if you believe you have such "real" siddhis, I suggest you come forward and organise yourself with other yogis to demonstrate your abilities to the scientific community. If I was in this position I would consider this my moral obligation since I would possibly hold the key to a scientific revolution that has the potential to help humanity and the planet in unconceivable ways.
Hi Tensor,
The only siddhi that I can think of that would truly help the world and humanity in unconceivable ways is Divine love. The ability to simply love everyone as they are. And it is not a siddhi that has been kept secret. People shout it from the rooftops! But it takes more than that to change the world. People have to do the work, to be able to experience the siddhi for themselves. Then it will change the world, more than any other single event in history.
It is happening, but slowly. And it is not a done-deal yet!  |
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th1996
Germany
23 Posts |
Posted - Nov 10 2023 : 09:08:42 AM
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I think when someone has the ability to do siddhis he has a much wider view on the spiritual evolution of the world. So, maybe they know that time is not right for the salvation of humanity.
I mean, Jesus could heal the entire world, why has he only limited to heal some people? I think it is because of the knowledge about the plan of the individual soul. And I think humanity as a whole has a plan, and it has to be the right time for spiritual siddhis for the mass. |
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Dogboy
USA
2201 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2023 : 01:19:22 AM
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| If we are but cells in a universal organism, the cells closest to us benefit the most. |
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TensorTympani
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2023 : 11:41:23 AM
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Hi there, thanks for your thoughts. But I feel my point might not have come across.
My point is that if real siddhis existed they would teach us something about the nature of the physical world, and knowledge about the physical world is precious, as history taught us.
We can explore the nature of the physical world while aiming for universal love at the same time. In fact, knowledge (and its fruit technology) can hugely assist us in helping each other, and thus putting love into action. Take AYP as an example.
If there is anyone around who has real siddhis (capabilities incompatible with our current understanding of physics), and has some insights into why I'm incorrect, please share!
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Christi
United Kingdom
4377 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2023 : 09:29:28 AM
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Hi Tensor,
The bottom line is that siddhis, or psychic powers, that develop through the practice of yoga, are morally self-regulating. This means that almost always, when yogis develop psychic powers, they will, simultaneously, be developing qualities such as wisdom, Self-knowledge, compassion and love. So, they will naturally know when to use these powers and when not to, and they will have the compassion and love required to ensure that they only use these powers to help others.
But, the training to become a scientist, does not include the development of any of these qualities. Scientific study does not lead to wisdom, or self-knowledge, or compassion, or love. So, there is no ethical self-regulation taking place. A scientist could create nuclear power to produce energy for millions of people around the world, or they could use the same technology to create nuclear bombs to kill hundreds of thousands of people. And we have seen that happen in history, and it is still happening today.
And that is just the scientists. What about the people who are not scientists, who could access this technology and use it to affect others? There is no guarantee at all that these people will be wise, or compassionate, or loving, or have the knowledge of subtle dimensions needed to be able to use siddhis in a beneficial way. It is more than likely that these abilities would fall into the wrong hands.
Even yogis are advised not to use siddhis when they get them, in case they should become distracted, accidentally harm others, or fall into the trap of ego-aggrandisement. Despite the warnings, many yogis have gone down that path, including some of the most famous yogis alive today.
I can imagine a day when siddhis could be made available to the scientific community and then to the general public. But it would take a big shift in the consciousness of humanity before it would be a safe thing to do. Right now, we are a long way from that. |
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Jac
Switzerland
29 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2023 : 11:44:05 AM
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Hi all,
I just read a quote from Ramana Maharshi on siddhis, so I give it to you, to enrich your thoughts on the subject :
"It is the realisation of, and firm adherence to, that which is ever existent that deserves the name siddhi or attainment. Attainment of miraculous powers, is like attaining them in dreams. When he wakes up what becomes of them? Will those who have brushed aside the unreal and got established in the Real be confounded by these?"
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interpaul
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Nov 13 2023 : 8:11:48 PM
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Tensor, I share your perspective. For quite some time I've been interested in astral projection. I've read a number of accounts and felt this has significant implications. I've been disappointed by the lack of scientific data confirming the veracity of this practice. One of my friends, after I shared my thoughts on it, made comments almost identical to yours suggesting proving this would be transformative to the world. I gave a lot of thought as to why in 2023 there are no definitive studies confirming the reality of this experience and came to conclusions similar to some of what has been shared. I suspect proving we are not limited to this body would be helpful for some but would ultimately take away the mystery for others. We likely are here in this incarnation to learn lessons and being told the lessons up front, with proof of the lessons authenticity, would take away the motivation.
Having said that I see some parallels with AYP. Yogani has outlined an amazing practice here. He offers stories to generate interest but ultimately suggests we need to do the practices to verify for ourselves. I've been interested by how few people who are curious about my practices (and the positive changes they have created in me) care to give the practices a try. |
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TensorTympani
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2023 : 1:41:54 PM
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Hi all! Thanks for further engaging in my musings! For me, thinking about the implications of such physics-revolutionizing siddhis isn't much different than thinking about other non-siddhi related ways physics might undergo revolutions. I am a scientist and thus thrilled by any claims that suggest the natural world might be fundamentally different from what our current best theory suggest. So whether the revolution comes from a scientist or a yogi doesn't matter much for me.
I agree that knowledge about the natural world can also be applied in a destructive manner. But that shouldn't stop us from doing science. We would still have to wait for a lightening bolt to strike a tree to produce fire, if it wasn't for the free sharing of insights into the workings of the natural world, and passing them down.
It's an interesting idea that siddhis are morally self-regulating, and they therefore have not "leaked" to science and the public because of the possibility of abusing them. But is there any evidence for this moral self-regulation? At least there are plenty of stories of evil sorcerers, witches and shamans. A shaman from the amazon I know says that shamans regularly fight each other with life threatening spells while being many kilometers apart. I'm not saying I believe these stories. But to me these stories are equally credible than other stories about siddhis used for good, or pure curiosity (such as in scientific studies of "psi"). Maybe people using siddhis for evil or neutral reasons have attained siddhis through other means than yoga and therefore in those cases their use is not morally self-regulating?
But if there are non-yogic people with such siddhis why hasn't the existence of such siddhis been safely established by science?
In fact I haven't seen scientific studies on "psi" phenomena working with yogis, but plenty with other individuals with alleged psychic powers. However non of these studies produced mounting evidence for the existence of real siddhis. So maybe the following might be the case, "psi" (a.k.a real siddhis) no matter how they were obtained (and whether they are used for moral things or not) refuse to be scientifically studied. So in general, they might not be morally self-regulating but instead evidence-self-sabotaging, as in Heraklit's "Nature loves to conceal Herself". A cosmic censorship for siddhis.
If this was the case, this evidence-self-sabotaging might manifest in most yogis in a form of moral self-regulation to never share these real siddhis with the world, and in other cases, such as the few yogis who reveal their powers or non-yogic psychic people, sufficient evidence never piles up for other reasons. But this kind of cosmic censorship would in itself have implications about the workings of nature! Even though in a slightly frustrating way since it would be evidence for something only if you believe in real siddhis.
If we had a bunch of yogis (or otherwise psychics) who know for themselves they have real siddhis, they could meet and join for an experiment to test this cosmic censorship for themselves by attempting to produce mounting objective evidence of their siddhis. If the "cosmic censorship" is correct, they would never be able to achieve this. Of course, the scientific community would consider this outcome totally boring: it would just be evidence for the non-existence of real siddhis. But for anyone who believes this gang of nerd-yogis who ran those experiments it would be evidence for such a "cosmic censorship".
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Edited by - TensorTympani on Nov 14 2023 2:55:41 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4377 Posts |
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TensorTympani
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - Nov 14 2023 : 4:47:12 PM
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That's very interesting research, and yes here a real yogi is involved, but the siddhi explored (having large amplitude gamma brain waves) is what I called in my first post a "plausibly compatible" siddhi. Having such brain waves might be surprising to modern science, since it is unusual, but it is plausibly compatible with our current best theoretical models of nature.
I recently read a book called "Beyond the Relaxation Response" in which the author, Herbert Benson, reported on scientific studies he conducted on Tibetan monks that could allegedly regulate body temperature in hands and feet.
He found these claims to be true, measuring their temperature during meditation at various body locations. However, also in this case, while fascinating and certainly important research on human capabilities, regulating body temperature falls into the category of what I call "plausibly compatible" siddhis.
He also reported observing and questioning yogis that could allegedly levitate. But when they demonstrated their levitation to him, they only hopped with crossed legs, clearly pushing themselves off the ground with muscle power. As with the temperature regulation, maybe not all of the lifting off the ground was muscle power, but this type of hopping levitation is "plausibly compatible" with conventional physics. So no evidence for real siddhis.
There exist plenty of studies of psychics, i.e. with "real siddhis", done in the US. Here is an interesting interview with a scientist involved in one of those studies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrwAiU2g5RU
The problem is, that the team of scientists involved could not agree on whether the evidence was credible or not, or the study was flawed or not. And in many similar cases, replications failed, or flaws in the original study were uncovered, leaving us in this weird situation that despite all the years of psi-research the evidence never mounted up to a real discovery or a real refutation. The evidence just seems to hover at a barely significant level. So it seems that either real siddhis exist and "cosmic censorship" (or bad luck) is sabotaging the experiments in just such a way that evidence is never really mounting, or real siddhis don't exist, and the continuously produced slight evidence for real siddhis documented in the scientific literature over the past 100 years is merely a signature of the scientific method too sloppily applied. So the persistent "maybe"-level evidence of real siddhis is fascinating in itself.
I would really love to have clarity on whether real siddhis existed or not. But I'm also ok with never knowing. It would be just very weird (e.g the "cosmic censorship"), if it was an undecidable question for the scientific method, since usually questions about the natural world that can be tested experimentally either lead over time to mounting evidence for the hypothesis to be true or false.
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Moral imperative to reveal and study siddhis
