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tamasaburo
USA
136 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 20 2010 : 10:41:05 PM
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Hi, so practicing AYP mantra meditation for a couple years now, I started out just sort of silently repeating the mantra as if in a silent whisper and then moved more towards something I'd describe as just "thought" repetition.
Nevertheless, I realized lately that even as I believed I had moved more towards "thinking" the mantra rather than "saying" the mantra, still there were some tiny movements, closer to impulses than physical movements, in my tongue and throat when I was repeating the mantra, i.e. I was still associating the mantra with my speech-related mental pathways.
Now, I am a very speech and hearing-focused personality, not a very visual one. I notice that even when I am thinking in everyday life I am often actually talking to myself inside my head, with slight impulses in my throat and tongue included. I have heard other more visually-oriented people say that when they think it's as if a text-crawl is passing through their mind's eye--hence one might imagine such a person even seeing the words "I AM" or "ayam" when doing DM, thought that is definitely not me. I have also often felt for some time now that my throat chakra may be one of the most energetically "blocked" in me, even though I work on it with targeted spinal bastrika and do believe I've seen significant openings in the area. If this is really the case it might also make sense that in DM, I tend to get "caught up" in my speech faculty...perhaps even my ability to notice these "movements" is a sign of some opening?
So anyway, I thought that this tiny tongue/throat movement might be an obstacle to going deeper with my meditation, so I've recently tried my very best to let the tongue and throat relax completely and shift the mantra into as much of a "pure thought" mode as possible. The solar centering enhancement seems to help with this as when I do it I feel kind of like my solar plexus area almost has a life of its own and it is thinking the mantra, rather than just my everyday self quietly whispering the mantra inside my own head.
The more specific question is: am I on the right track in doing this--in trying to move the mantra away from something silently "spoken" and into something closer to "pure thought"? A related, broader question: should we try to avoid associating the mantra with any particular sense in the same way we try to avoid associating it with any particular place (other than the solar plexus)? I seem to recall someone saying we should try to "hear" the mantra, almost like one would hear music in one's head, but might this not just be another way of limiting the potential subtlety of the mantra? In another way, since we are trying to pick up on vibrational quality, it might make sense to try to "feel" the mantra, though maybe that might also lead us astray?
Of course, trying to perceive or create the mantra from deep within without associating it with any particular sense is quite hard, since how can one create a "sound" without in some sense "speaking" it, "hearing" it, or "feeling" it? Then again, maybe it is precisely the attempt at doing this which will lead us into ever subtler inner space?
Put simply: what is the most appropriate verb for mantra practice? Do we silently "say" the mantra, "hear" the mantra, "feel" the mantra, or "encourage" a mantra-like thought impulse? Some combination of the above? None of the above?
I think I've been having success with this "evolution" of my mantra practice, but I thought I'd check what other people think and also take the opportunity to ask this more general question.
Thanks for reading and for any input. :) |
Edited by - tamasaburo on Jul 21 2010 12:26:20 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2010 : 08:25:57 AM
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Hi Tamasaburo,
I think you are putting too much focus into the process. One thing I know from 5 years of AYP is, every practice will change over time. So there really is no right way or wrong way. As long as you are saying the mantra in your mind, not aloud, you are doing it right.
For someone who is more visual it may be in the form of seeing words.. when they realize they are seeing the words, they go back to repeating "i am" in their mind... for those who are less visual, may find themselves saying the mantra or hearing the mantra... when they realize they are doing this, they gently go back to repeating the mantra in their mind.
Do you see the common thread?
The min you realize your mind has jumped in and is evaluating the way you are doing your practice, be it visualizing, hearing, saying... you are in mind... so you go back to saying (thinking) "i am".
That Is The Process.
The min you realize your mind is involved in evaluating the moment, you go back to the mantra. In between when the mind was not aware of what you are doing, thinking, visualizing, hearing, saying, whatever it may be, it is fine. The focus is not on what the body mind is doing when the mind is not aware. The focus is at realizing the mind has jumped in with a thought that you are aware of, "I am seeing the mantra", "I am vocalizing the mantra", "I am thinking", dropping that thought and going back to the mantra. Not giving that thought an ounce more attention than it already got... that is the process of deep meditation.
Let me know if this helps.
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tamasaburo
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2010 : 11:32:31 AM
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Hi Shanti, thanks for the response. It makes some sense to me, but I think there's still a kind of fundamental question: If one realizes during DM that one is thinking about the proper way to repeat the mantra rather than simply repeating the mantra, what does one go back to? "Saying" the mantra in one's head? "Hearing" the mantra? "Feeling" the mantra? Any of the above which comes naturally?
I certainly understand that during DM is not the time to be analyzing the procedure, but speaking now from the perspective of not being meditating at the moment, surely not all inquiries into the proper "method" or "mode" of repetition are just "mind games"? I guess what I'm taking away from your post is just to repeat the mantra in whatever way comes naturally, and if the way that comes naturally changes over time then that's just part of the process? Thanks again. :) |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2010 : 12:42:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tamasaburo
I guess what I'm taking away from your post is just to repeat the mantra in whatever way comes naturally, and if the way that comes naturally changes over time then that's just part of the process? Thanks again. :)
Yes, you got it. The practices will change over time.
I spend a lot to time trying to fine tune my practices, but when I realized there was no such thing as perfect practice, I relaxed into my practices and let them lead me, rather than I lead them. That is why we say "do your practices like brushing your teeth".
As long as you are not straying too far from the practice as described in the lessons, you are doing fine. Like Yogani says in his first lesson "Easily repeat the mantra silently inside".
So when I say come back to the mantra I mean think the mantra. When you are hungry, the way to think to yourself, "I am hungry, I need to eat", like that think "i am". That is your natural way of thinking. If your throat moves slightly with that thinking, that is fine. When you realize you are thinking your throat is moving, go back to the mantra. |
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alecpeace
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2015 : 12:57:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Hi Tamasaburo,
I think you are putting too much focus into the process. One thing I know from 5 years of AYP is, every practice will change over time. So there really is no right way or wrong way. As long as you are saying the mantra in your mind, not aloud, you are doing it right.
For someone who is more visual it may be in the form of seeing words.. when they realize they are seeing the words, they go back to repeating "i am" in their mind... for those who are less visual, may find themselves saying the mantra or hearing the mantra... when they realize they are doing this, they gently go back to repeating the mantra in their mind.
Do you see the common thread?
The min you realize your mind has jumped in and is evaluating the way you are doing your practice, be it visualizing, hearing, saying... you are in mind... so you go back to saying (thinking) "i am".
That Is The Process.
The min you realize your mind is involved in evaluating the moment, you go back to the mantra. In between when the mind was not aware of what you are doing, thinking, visualizing, hearing, saying, whatever it may be, it is fine. The focus is not on what the body mind is doing when the mind is not aware. The focus is at realizing the mind has jumped in with a thought that you are aware of, "I am seeing the mantra", "I am vocalizing the mantra", "I am thinking", dropping that thought and going back to the mantra. Not giving that thought an ounce more attention than it already got... that is the process of deep meditation.
Let me know if this helps.
Hello Shanti,
Actually, this is a concern I've had for a few days now, and I'm not so sure it's still been fully answered here in this thread. I realize what you're saying about not focusing on the mantra too much in terms of "thinking it like a thought" vs "verbalizing it in the head", but it IS a serious issue and produces two completely different meditations. Just try it.
With the verbalized version I found my energy expenditure to maintain the mantra was too great and connected me to the physical too much, hence I limited myself to how deep I could go.
With the thought version of the mantra, I could go much deeper and the effects after meditation were more awesome.
Of course, this could all be rubbish and I'm totally wrong and misunderstanding the core concepts and need to back to square one, but anybody care to comment?
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Edited by - alecpeace on Jul 28 2015 4:05:06 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2015 : 8:29:04 PM
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The main thing to understand is that every thought is a vibration. All phenomena in the mind have a vibratory quality. A vibration is a movement in space (silence). The Latin root of the word vibrate means "moved to and fro". So, the mantra, like any other thought, is a vibration, i.e. a phenomenon that is moving to and fro in the empty space of the mind.
Now, when it comes to sound, sound is a vibration that has an auditory quality which the ear can detect. Sound is one of the major 5 senses. The other 4 senses (touch, taste, smell, and vision) also have vibratory objects which they can perceive. Often, they all get mixed together in a potpourri of sensory phenomena.
All of the 5 senses of perception operate internally, just as they do externally. So, you can hear the mantra as a thought-sound on the inside, just as you can hear it on the outside when it is spoken aloud. It's simply a matter of which direction we are pointing our awareness, and which faculties we are using to create the vibration.
Obviously, Deep Meditation is pointed towards the interior, and therefore we are refining the mantra, which IS a thought-sound-vibration. Can the mantra mix with other phenomena besides sound? Absolutely. It will intermingle with many things as it gets dissolved into stillness. That is the beauty of the technique. It sweeps through the vast landscape of our interior world and brings us home to our peaceful self, which encompasses All That Is.
Good questions. 
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2015 : 8:41:06 PM
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P.S. Refining the mantra in the mind creates a kind of gentle groove in the nervous system. Therefore, we can correctly conclude that by doing the technique, we are becoming groovy.   |
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alecpeace
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2015 : 10:29:56 PM
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Thanks Bodhi for the clarification. Everything you say makes sense.
Have you ever tried DM with repeating the mantra as a thought, devoid of any interiorization of sense faculties, i.e. speech?
I mean, instead of saying the mantra inside the head with eyes closed, you would "think it"
It is definitely much easier to "say" the mantra inside the head than to think it, but wouldn't saying it inside the head keep us attached to the physical because we would be still using our speech faculties interiorized? |
Edited by - alecpeace on Jul 28 2015 10:50:56 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2015 : 11:20:00 PM
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There is no absolute line between internal "thinking" or internal "saying". They are essentially the same. Part of thinking is interiorizing the speech faculties. You could just as easily think an image, or a smell, or a taste. You would "see" the image, "smell" the smell, and "taste" the taste—by virtue of thinking them in the mind. [I love your creation of the word "interiorize", by the way!]
That's why I called the mantra a thought-sound. It is a sound that is created by thinking, therefore there is no way to divorce the thinking from the sound. It can't be done. They are intertwined by virtue of vibration and stillness. You can only refine the thought-sound into further depths of Being and Mind-Boggling Bliss.
The deeper you get, the more you realize that all internal/external phenomena are thoughts of God, or stillness, and that your personal mind is just a micro-branch of the Big Tree that is dreaming the cosmic dream.
Anyway, if the connotation of "thinking" works better for you by helping your mind do the technique in a smooth fashion in line with easily favoring, that is great. Stick with whatever verbal connotations guide you in the direction of easily favoring. It sounds like you are making progress, and getting into your own groove, which is what matters. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2015 : 01:47:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
The deeper you get, the more you realize that all internal/external phenomena are thoughts of God, or stillness, and that your personal mind is just a micro-branch of the Big Tree that is dreaming the cosmic dream.
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2015 : 10:07:45 AM
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Hi alecpeace
I would say the mantra is a thought. In fact, that is the word Yogani use in Lesson 13.
We don't voluntarily attach any meaning to it. If meanings or associations do occur, we treat them as any other thought/sensation in meditation i.e. let it come and let it go, we easily return to the mantra. It might be a good idea to read that Lesson 13 again. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Jul 29 2015 2:08:56 PM |
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alecpeace
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2015 : 12:36:33 PM
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Thanks all for the great responses.
Bodhi, I completely understand what you're saying, but my inspection of the mantra is on a much more minute level than just saying "close your eyes and repeat the mantra". Try this...
1) Close your eyes and "say" the mantra without speaking out loud, but in your head.
2) Now, close your eyes and "think" the mantra without speaking it internally, but thinking it. You know a thought has no syllables, thoughts come as single "units". You know you did this correctly when there was no movement at all in your tongue or throat on even the most subtle level.
Do you see the minute difference? it's actually a big difference if you spend DM meditation with one way and another DM meditation with the other way, you will notice they produce two totally different meditations.
Anyway, I received my clarification to my conundrum based off of experiential truth in today's meditation when I decided to speak the mantra internally and fell so deep into DM it was very productive, I even heard a loud singing bowl in my head. Earlier when I said "thought-based" mantra takes up less energy to produce, I was mistaken. In fact, thinking the mantra is much more difficult and you lose the mantra much more frequently because it's much more fragile as a thought.
Based off this experience, I would say the mantra needs to be "spoken inside the head", and that's as simple explanation I can give, but it can be misinterpreted to mean "thinking the mantra inside the head". Initially, as you said, it's all thinking anyway since were not speaking it out loud, but digging even deeper, as a meditation professional would love to do  you would notice a slight difference.
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Edited by - alecpeace on Jul 29 2015 12:46:45 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2015 : 2:04:53 PM
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If this works for you as a starting point, that's fine. Don't write it in stone though - it's important to allow the mantra to go to less and less (become fuzzier). You may well find that in time it also goes further and further away from speach. That is a good development.
quote:
Originally posted by alecpeace
In fact, thinking the mantra is much more difficult and you lose the mantra much more frequently because it's much more fragile as a thought.
How often you lose the mantra is not a measure of the quality or success of your meditation. Losing the mantra is a necessary part of the process. "The goal is not to stay on it." The part that really matters is easily picking up the mantra when you realise you have lost it. "When you come back to it, come back to a level that is comfortable, not straining for either a clear or fuzzy pronunciation." (the quotes are from Lesson 13)
Enjoy your practice! |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Jul 29 2015 2:14:37 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2015 : 4:41:42 PM
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Onward with the refinement of thought-units!  |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1534 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2015 : 12:58:49 AM
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Bodhi - You are on fire! Pass me some of whatever you are on...
Sey |
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kensbikes100
USA
192 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2015 : 02:31:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tamasaburo
Hi Shanti, thanks for the response. It makes some sense to me, but I think there's still a kind of fundamental question: If one realizes during DM that one is thinking about the proper way to repeat the mantra rather than simply repeating the mantra, what does one go back to? "Saying" the mantra in one's head? "Hearing" the mantra? "Feeling" the mantra? Any of the above which comes naturally?
I certainly understand that during DM is not the time to be analyzing the procedure, but speaking now from the perspective of not being meditating at the moment, surely not all inquiries into the proper "method" or "mode" of repetition are just "mind games"? I guess what I'm taking away from your post is just to repeat the mantra in whatever way comes naturally, and if the way that comes naturally changes over time then that's just part of the process? Thanks again. :)
I feel that the question is about the degree of subtlety that is present in uttering the mantra. If one becomes aware of how one is uttering (not really a good term, I fear), then that is a thought process that indicates you are not really on the mantra. At this point I to back to hearing the actual sounds "Ayem" repetitively. In this case the awareness is perhaps the lower limit of subtlety.
At the other end of the scale is when the mantra is an inaudible and intangibly subtle thought that simply tickles at your awareness. In my opinion this is not "too subtle" nor is it insuficiently subtle - it just is.
If you are too aware of how the mantra is progressing, it's a thought and you need to gently rturn to repeating the mantra. I think the process of DM is still very simple. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2015 : 3:41:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
Bodhi - You are on fire! Pass me some of whatever you are on...
Sey
 You got it! |
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alecpeace
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2015 : 12:12:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alecpeace
Thanks all for the great responses.
Bodhi, I completely understand what you're saying, but my inspection of the mantra is on a much more minute level than just saying "close your eyes and repeat the mantra". Try this...
1) Close your eyes and "say" the mantra without speaking out loud, but in your head.
2) Now, close your eyes and "think" the mantra without speaking it internally, but thinking it. You know a thought has no syllables, thoughts come as single "units". You know you did this correctly when there was no movement at all in your tongue or throat on even the most subtle level.
Do you see the minute difference? it's actually a big difference if you spend DM meditation with one way and another DM meditation with the other way, you will notice they produce two totally different meditations.
Anyway, I received my clarification to my conundrum based off of experiential truth in today's meditation when I decided to speak the mantra internally and fell so deep into DM it was very productive, I even heard a loud singing bowl in my head. Earlier when I said "thought-based" mantra takes up less energy to produce, I was mistaken. In fact, thinking the mantra is much more difficult and you lose the mantra much more frequently because it's much more fragile as a thought.
Based off this experience, I would say the mantra needs to be "spoken inside the head", and that's as simple explanation I can give, but it can be misinterpreted to mean "thinking the mantra inside the head". Initially, as you said, it's all thinking anyway since were not speaking it out loud, but digging even deeper, as a meditation professional would love to do you would notice a slight difference.
Replying to my own post  , I would like to say that after practicing DM for a number of days, alternating between the two mantra methods, placements, whatever you want to call it (i.e. spoken inside head, or thought inside the mind), I noticed the following:
1) internally verbalizing the mantra does achieve the effect of creating the vibratory effect of the mantra, but inhibits the dissolution of the mantra into stillness
2) thinking the mantra as a thought, also achieves the vibratory effect the same way, but the mantra easily dissolves into stillness after a while.
3) when first starting DM (first few minutes) the internally verbalized mantra is much easier to do, and doesn't "fall away" as much, whereas the thought mantra is more difficult at first i.e. like sand between your fingers, tends to slip away more frequently.
4) Later on in the DM session, you reap the benefits of thinking the mantra vs. internally saying the mantra when you realize that your senses have internalized and your mind has separated from the physical body (if you're deep enough), thus thinking the mantra takes on a whole new meaning. Thoughts become "things", literally, and the mantra is felt. I can almost reach out and grab the thought of the mantra.
5) If I internally verbalize the mantra throughout the entire session, than later on in DM, I cannot detach from the physical body. The idea that I'm internally verbalizing the mantra, even if I do somehow achieve a "melting away of the mantra", still holds me back. Like a bungee cord that does not allow me to fully go into stillness, or as I would say "go deep into the mind, and become the mind/consciousness, leaving the physical behind like an old snake-skin"
Just some Saturday morning observations.
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Edited by - alecpeace on Aug 01 2015 12:31:39 PM |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2015 : 1:19:21 PM
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| Groovy! |
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Dogboy
USA
2202 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2015 : 2:58:49 PM
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| And remember it's okay for the meditations to feel different, to be different. Let the process dictate the "feel" while you steer the vessal |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Aug 01 2015 : 5:54:32 PM
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| Good observations and great job putting them in words. |
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Mantra and the tongue/throat+other senses
