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emc
2072 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 22 2010 : 4:39:03 PM
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Louis, or someone else who are familiar with mindfulness...
What am I doing wrong when trying to be mindful when I am instead going into deep meditation?
I have problems keeping alertness in the outer world, keeping being mindful around what I'm doing, and instead quickly disappear into deep stillness and eyes closes and relaxation comes, ending the activity I'm supposed to be mindful of...
It happens particularly when being mindful during eating. I end up either dropping my head into the plate, incapable of eating, lost in stillness. Or I might start having automatic movements waving the plate with the food around in praisal over my head, crying...  No food ever comes near my mouth and everything I've read about the benefits of mindful eating seems far away.
How do I stay mindful without having to get "mindy" to prevent going too deep?
(Feels like I've asked about this in another topic, but can't find it or remember any good answers, so sorry if I repeat myself.) |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Apr 22 2010 : 6:43:51 PM
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Hi emc,
mindfulness meditation is a different approach altogether. One needs to strengthen one-pointed concentration first in order to be able to practice mindfulness (like eating meditation) successfully. Without it, your mind will wander, you will always end up somewhere you didn't intend going, "waking up" at some point. It is much about control, unlike deep meditation. In fact, loosing oneself in stillness - like dropping the head into the plate - is quite opposite to what we commit to when we want to strengthen mindfulness. In mindfulness meditation, we are trying to be as sharp as possible, watching microscopically every millisecond of our experience, trying to achieve a crystal clear, detailed experience of every atom, every mental and physical phenomena. Very different...
It's definitely not easy to do. But you know, don't be desperate  Our minds are crazy, my own is no exception...  Maybe you could play with labeling a bit? It helps not to loose attention. Watch the movements of your hands, scooping, carrying of the spoon, then chewing, tasting, swallowing. Keep your mind occupied. Stick your attention to those discrete, simple processes, and keep silently reminding yourself "scooping, scooping, carrying, carrying" and so on. And when some automatic movements occur, thats not a problem at all, just go on "waving, waving, jerking, jerking..." whatever No one situation is better to be mindful in then another. It's not the eating part in mindful eating that is important. 
Concentration is the fuel of continuous mindfulness. Without it one has little chances to stay present. It comes with diligent practice of focusing on a single object.
How do you prevent going too "deep"? I'd say, stick with the sensations of the breathing movements of your belly and chest. Don't lose it! Watch it VERY attentively and VERY continuously. There is much beauty and insight hidden in them.
Would love to hear from you about your mindfulness adventures in the future
Love, Roman |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 01:53:18 AM
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Hm.
Meditation vs mindfulness
relax - concentrate
let go - control
never mind the mind - occupy your mind
don't label - label
focus on breathing until "you" disappear - keep focusing on breathing, don't lose yourself
Very different indeed.
Sounds crazy at first. Trying to understand here. Cause going beyond mind is for me stepping into presence/the now. Mind and labelling is keeping yourself in time and space dimension. Going error here. 
Is it somewhat like zazen meditation with open eyes? A practice to have a "double focus" both "inside and outside" simultaneously to still stay in the world of appearances while resting as stillness? Not to get sucked into samadhi (awareness at rest) but to discover awareness-consciousness in action (animating the world)? So if I'm going too deep, it means I'm bringing the awareness inwards instead of holding it outwards? (Although there is no in and out, but here where I am there still is.) And the cure for it would be to stay a bit more mindy? Do I approach some kind of understanding here? |
Edited by - emc on Apr 23 2010 03:22:32 AM |
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brunoloff
Netherlands
47 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 03:54:52 AM
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| I am no expert in concentration (alas!), but I have read the book "The attention revolution", by B. Alan Wallace, and there he has specific instructions to develop concentration power up to (the tibetan meaning for) samadhi, aka stabilization of the mind. In his terminology, you would be suffering from "gross laxity." |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 05:40:42 AM
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Hi emc
Firstly, I don't have your experience but have experienced some tendancies in that direction at some stages.
I wrote about this in the forum ages ago but no idea where.
My view then was that one can practice at least two kinds of mindfulness;
1. Identifying mindfulness
2. Non-identifying mindfulness.
It seems you are practicing the second. My experience of the second type is to become ungrounded and spacey which can result in overload for me.
So, as you sayquote:
Not to get sucked into samadhi (awareness at rest) but to discover awareness-consciousness in action (animating the world)? So if I'm going too deep, it means I'm bringing the awareness inwards instead of holding it outwards? (Although there is no in and out, but here where I am there still is.) And the cure for it would be to stay a bit more mindy? Do I approach some kind of understanding here?
It seems that you enter the non-identifying state quite easily and so the balance would be to pull back into staying present with identified objects.
It is possible to be on the edge of these two aspects without being drawn into either, and it may be that you need to practice mindfulness of staying with the solid earthy objects with some identification, in oder to train the mindfulness in that aspect also.
The other aspect of this is accepting the way you are right now as it is. Then looking at the discrepancy between this and how you perceive you would like to be (as you have spoken of before in other posts).
Staying aware of this discrepancy between how you actually are now and how you would like to be, and being with that difference, aware of that difference and allowing it to change or not change and with no expected outcome.
I know you are familiar with this so thought it might help.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 06:58:38 AM
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Thanks a lot, Louis! It makes it a bit clearer, indeed!
Would you agree with mimirom that keeping on labelling in the mind would be a good practice to train staying with identifying the objects? Is that the way to "pull back" or is there any other good way? It sounds like I most certainly must practice staying with the sold earthy objects.
quote:
The other aspect of this is accepting the way you are right now as it is. Then looking at the discrepancy between this and how you perceive you would like to be (as you have spoken of before in other posts).
Staying aware of this discrepancy between how you actually are now and how you would like to be, and being with that difference, aware of that difference and allowing it to change or not change and with no expected outcome.
I know you are familiar with this so thought it might help.
Ahhh!  Right! Thanks! |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 09:41:00 AM
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quote:
Would you agree with mimirom that keeping on labelling in the mind would be a good practice to train staying with identifying the objects? Is that the way to "pull back" or is there any other good way? It sounds like I most certainly must practice staying with the sold earthy objects.
Yeh, that sounds like a good idea.
In my case it takes effort to keep going back to non-identification whereas for you it seems to be the other way round. In any case another word for mindfulness is "remembering". So just like gently returning to the mantra when we discover ourselves off in thoughts or whatever. In your case it might be remembering to keep coming back to the solid earthy objects and the labeling might be a very good way of doing that.
Wish you the best with it |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 12:29:30 PM
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Ah! You ARE really helping me getting perspectives here. That must be why people in satsangs or meetings sometimes suddenly start rubbing my back to "pull me back" when I start relaxing. I always wondered why they did that.
I must learn this type of remembering. What use is it to be able to shut off the world and travel inwards if we can't bring stillness with us out again and function in the world?
Thanks Louis! Lots of gratitude! |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 1:05:14 PM
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Hi emc
Do you practice samyama?
Love!
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 1:40:26 PM
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Nope. Have just stabilized during the latest months after years of overload, so I'm very careful not adding anything that might cause overload again. I know samyama is AYP's way of having stillness come outwards. Too powerful for me, though. If I am to add any regular AYP practice in the future it's gonna be Deep meditation with mantra again. Starting from the beginning sometime, perhaps. Or not.
Ah, another thought came up. Question for the mindfulness elite here:
- When concentrating on the sensations around eating and the food, the chewing etc... Do I focus on ONE thing at a time? Mimirom is that what you meant by:
quote:
Watch the movements of your hands, scooping, carrying of the spoon, then chewing, tasting, swallowing. Keep your mind occupied. Stick your attention to those discrete, simple processes, and keep silently reminding yourself "scooping, scooping, carrying, carrying" and so on.
See, the trick to go into deeper levels for me is to start with one sensation, then let the awareness embrace more and more areas of sensation/body at once, and when there's whole body awareness and expanding... I usually drop very deep and dissolve from that place... Is one trick to keep attention on one thing at a time? |
Edited by - emc on Apr 23 2010 1:53:39 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 1:53:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Nope. Have just stabilized during the latest months after years of overload, so I'm very careful not adding anything that might cause overload again. I know samyama is AYP's way of having stillness come outwards. Too powerful for me, though. If I am to add any regular AYP practice in the future it's gonna be Deep meditation with mantra again. Starting from the beginning sometime, perhaps. Or not.
Cool. Just asking
Love!
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 2:16:05 PM
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brunoloff - thanks for Wallace! Found this link where he describes gross laxity and the whole enchilada of different stages of depths... I read page 47-50.
http://books.google.se/books?id=WvC...ge&q&f=false
Got it right on there!
/Ms Thanksalot |
Edited by - emc on Apr 23 2010 2:20:30 PM |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 4:48:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
- When concentrating on the sensations around eating and the food, the chewing etc... Do I focus on ONE thing at a time?
Yes, exactly. You are getting it right, emc. Always one thing at a time.
quote:
See, the trick to go into deeper levels for me is to start with one sensation, then let the awareness embrace more and more areas of sensation/body at once, and when there's whole body awareness and expanding... I usually drop very deep and dissolve from that place... Is one trick to keep attention on one thing at a time?
Wow, this is so funny. Again, it's the opposite direction you want to go in mindfulness training. You focus on one single object and strive to watch it as closely and detailed as possible, for a prolonged time. Your concentration raises after some time, and you start to recognize that what was a single object is now a bunch of smaller objects. So you watch THEM one by one. After some time you gain even more concentration and you begin to recognize still subtler objects. Soon you find yourself in a quantum world of nano-objects, which you never thought you could see, but which nevertheless have always been the building blocks of your life experience. There is a whole universe down there, too. Unbound... But you are going rather into the object, like an awareness-laser-drill.
quote:
See, the trick to go into deeper levels for me is to start with one sensation, then let the awareness embrace more and more areas of sensation/body at once, and when there's whole body awareness and expanding... I usually drop very deep and dissolve from that place...
Thank you for this, emc. I'm learning here from you. _/\_ |
Edited by - mimirom on Apr 23 2010 7:04:11 PM |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 5:07:50 PM
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| One more thing: I'm talking here about the mix of mindfulness and concentration in the sense of Vipassana or Satipathana as understood, taught and practiced by teachers in the Buddhist Theravada tradition, and as explained in the Maha Satipathana Sutta by the Buddha after his attainment. |
Edited by - mimirom on Apr 24 2010 03:04:50 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2010 : 06:02:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
I have problems keeping alertness in the outer world, keeping being mindful around what I'm doing, and instead quickly disappear into deep stillness and eyes close...
Next time you eat, think that you are not eating the food but the food is eating you. Let the food eat you to its heart's content.
The same method can be applied while doing other things too....
- When walking, think that you are just moving your legs and the earth is moving under you (like a treadmill).
- While taking a shower/bath, think that the water is taking a bath/shower of you.
And so on....
Do let me know if you try this method and share your experience.
Have fun |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2010 : 12:19:44 PM
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Haha, manigma, that sounds like great fun. It resembles experiences I've had when trippin' on highs...
The first mindfulness meal tried for lunch today. Happened to focus on the tounge. Whooopie... That frentic fellow in there gave me a STRONG neti neti experience! I am NOT that!!! Fascinating to discover the refined movements of the tounge, separating chunks of food to the left, to the right, checking the theeth, rapidly going between them while chewing, brave as a kamikaze pilot...  This will be interesting. |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Apr 24 2010 : 1:30:40 PM
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quote:
Fascinating to discover the refined movements of the tounge, separating chunks of food to the left, to the right, checking the theeth, rapidly going between them while chewing, brave as a kamikaze pilot... This will be interesting.
Oh yeah, that's it! You're doing great! haha! You can achieve the same experience with any process in your mind, including thoughts, emotions and pain. They all have kinda lives of their own. You watch them and then they start to live their own stories. You are not them indeed. |
Edited by - mimirom on Apr 24 2010 2:17:19 PM |
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Proper alert mindfulness? How?
