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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 6:21:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
"Because the real realization is not nirvikalpa sahaj samadhi, but realizing that the awareness of that state is not ultimate, not real, not existing, not anything at all. Only until that is realized, ignorance is not finally overcome,"
Sounds very much like negation to me.
So if we are using negation as you do (and as I mentioned above not everyone does or needs to) then it becomes relevant as to when it is useful, and when not. Ultimately it may not have relevance, but at the stage where it is being used (and sometimes used heavily) then it is of relevance and it's counterbalance is also of relevance.
Christi
This is just semantics and misses the sense. What is the fact? There is no ultimate reality at all. When this is, that is. When that ceases, this ceases. This has to be recognized; when it is, one can manifest liberated.
Adamant |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4375 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 6:39:23 PM
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Hi Chinna,
quote:
Dear Christi
Thanks that helps me understand where you are. I am not talking about semantics or an intellectual negation at all. That's only negating 101. I can see that, from there, what I say would seem like an intellectual game. I am talking about inner dynamic reality. Instead of negate, perhaps it is easier for you to hear what I am pointing to if I say 'go beyond'. It is more difficult to imagine semantics with this phrase. But it is not really accurate enough because it can be used with embracing too.
regards
Thanks for that clarification, that helps me understand where you are as well. I wasn't suggesting at all that your path of negation is an intellectual game. I know that it is very real for you and is as valid a path as any. What I was saying though, is that negating the separation of the witness and witnessed, is in practice, the embracing of both the witness and the witnessed in oneness. If negation was the path used to shift from identification with the body/mind, then a new dynamic comes into play with the transition from the witness stage to the stage of oneness (unity). And yes, as you say, "going beyond" the witness/ witnessed division would be a better description of the process.
quote:
Negating and affirmation are different inner dispositions, movements, different directions of travel, which lead to the same unity/not-two. Either direction, 'inwards' (negating) or 'outwards' (embracing) needs to be followed until we are beyond all beyonds. It is extreme, passing beyond every subtlety. And extreme negating doesn't need to be constantly balanced by embracing.
Ah, I think this could be where you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying that extreme negating (or any kind of negating) needs to be constantly balanced by embracing (affirmation). I was saying that if the path of negation is being used, then at some point, in the higher stages of the path, negation needs to be dropped. This is simply because divine reality doesn't negate anything, it simply is, known only to itself. So in order to merge with That, we must become like That.
We're talking about the end-game here, the end of seeking (or non-seeking), when the drop becomes the ocean.
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 6:41:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Just identify with the natural clarity and vividness of ordinary reality rather than the thoughtstream
This is the bottomline.
You don't identify anything. You leave it alone, including the thoughtstream. Recognizing the invisible Clear Light swallows all.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 6:48:00 PM
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Christi, It's not negating, as in a logic game. It's a direct clear seeing of NOTHINGNESS, staring into VOIDNESS. Then,... next... One can clearly MANIFEST anything at all, and CONTINUE in natural self-perfection with no effort. But the moment one points to something 'real,' circling.
Adamant
P.S. not born, not arising, not beginning, not ceasing, not affirming, not negating, not anything, nothing whatsoever |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 15 2009 7:06:38 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4375 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 7:05:39 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
This is just semantics and misses the sense. What is the fact? There is no ultimate reality at all. When this is, that is. When that ceases, this ceases. This has to be recognized; when it is, one can manifest liberated.
It appears like that, yes. But the truth is that beyond that, there is something which is more real than you could ever imagine, and more incredible than you could ever dream of. In divine reality, there is no "this" or "that" and nothing ceases.
Brighter than the light of ten thousand suns, and darker than the darkest night. It cannot be spoken of, but it can be known. And it is That which is known in nirvikalpa samadhi.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4375 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 7:38:12 PM
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Hi Adamant,
p.s.
quote:
Christi, It's not negating, as in a logic game. It's a direct clear seeing of NOTHINGNESS, staring into VOIDNESS.
Just to clarify, when I was talking about negation above, I was talking about the process of negation as a spiritual practice, in the form of "not this", "not this". All that I wrote was in reference to that only, not in reference to voidness or nothingness or anything else.
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 7:45:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Adamant,
quote:
This is just semantics and misses the sense. What is the fact? There is no ultimate reality at all. When this is, that is. When that ceases, this ceases. This has to be recognized; when it is, one can manifest liberated.
It appears like that, yes. But the truth is that beyond that, there is something which is more real than you could ever imagine, and more incredible than you could ever dream of. In divine reality, there is no "this" or "that" and nothing ceases.
Brighter than the light of ten thousand suns, and darker than the darkest night. It cannot be spoken of, but it can be known. And it is That which is known in nirvikalpa samadhi.
Christi
I said not ceasing, because nothing begins. There is no truth beyond that. If you think there is, you're dreaming a big, unimaginable dream, called whatever you want. Whatever you want to call it, it's a rest stop at the vista point on the freeway to nowhere. Once you stop driving, the possibilities are infinite.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 15 2009 9:38:49 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 8:06:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Just identify with the natural clarity and vividness of ordinary reality rather than the thoughtstream
This is the bottomline.
You don't identify anything. You leave it alone, including the thoughtstream. Recognizing the invisible Clear Light swallows all.
Adamant
There is no Clear Light to swallow all. See, I can also play the semantics game. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 8:18:59 PM
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
quote:
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Nirvikalpa samadhi is usually a term used only for a very high state of samadhi where there is no longer awareness of the physical body, or any awareness of the astral or causal realms.
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Yes, exactly ... that's how I'm using it ... and it's clear you understand the meaning ... and the ramifications ... no perception of physical form, no perception of mental form, no subjective self .... awareness alone.
O.k. we seem to be getting somewhere here. If (for you) there is no perception of physical form in nirvikalpa samadhi, how do you know if the heart is beating or not and how do you know if the breath is suspended or not?
Christi
That's a good question/good point.
For me, Nirvikalpa Samadhi followed a trajectory similar to other practices and openings (aka results-of-practices) ...
... somewhat "clunky" in the beginning (aka "Whoa, what happened??", in this case), then "intense" ("WOW!") .... which was when I experienced utter lack of anything, other than awareness alone.
This went on for a period of a few months or so.
Then, there was kind of an "integration phase", where:
A. It "normalized" ... it became part of every meditation, and the "woo-hoo" factor wasn't there; it was just "how it was" during meditation.
B. Thoughtless awareness//awareness free from attachment to thoughts .... started rapidly increasing during day-to-day life.
C. "Waking sleep" (aka nirvikalpa samadhi) started to happen a lot, when I was formerly "unconsciously asleep".
D. (PERTINENT PART, ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION WISE  ) ... there was no longer *total* cessation of bodily awareness ... because there didn't need to be .... ultimately, nirvikalpa samadhi is about the reorientation regarding sense of self (away from focus/attachment to form) ... and so, bodily perception could "dial-down" probably 98-99% ... but it wasn't a hundred percent; these days, it's probably less ...... candidly, I don't really notice .... "what happens, happens".
And so, I hit this phase a while back:
Now, there there's no non-samadhi; harmony/unity/flow is just how-it-is ... and the amount of form perception or formlessness in perception now doesn't really matter; it all flows at is flows, as ever.
And so, the most candid/hopefully helpful/straightforward answer I can give, is:
I can't actually say, in conjunction with the no-bodily-awareness phase of nirvikalpa samadhi, whether my heartbeat or breath might have stopped, during that phase (during meditation, over a period of a few months, during meditation, probably the beginning of 2008 or so).
However, per the fact that at any time there's been sufficient bodily awareness to tell, my heart has been beating, and I've generally been breathing, except for fairly brief instances of the breathless state (which always happen spontaneously) .... combined with intuition .... I'd say my heart likely didn't stop, nor did my breathing.
However, you're right: during complete cessation of bodily awareness .... I couldn't actually know this.
And, as I believe I said:
It actually doesn't actually matter; nirvikalpa samadhi is an awareness dynamic, not a physical one.
The entire point of the experience (of nirvikalpa samadhi) is as the beginning of the full re-orientation away from identification with form.
It's the reorientation away from identification with form (whether physical, subtle, causal/very subtle, or of any other type) that's the important aspect of nirvikalpa samadhi, or sadhana overall, at a certain stage.
And, also as mentioned before:
There are many who have realized enlightenment .... who have never experienced nirvikalpa samadhi, or any other kind of samadhi.
There are a nearly infinite number of ways to realize true nature, and to enter into living from it ... and everyone's experience is unique.
Nirvikalpa Samadhi can simply be a helpful tool, just as the witness, inquiry and other practices can be .... it's sort of a "jump start" of non-identification with form .... which allows for identification with form to be transcended ... so that it can finally be included/accepted, in/as wholeness.
Because the truly important part is:
Knowing/Being the wholeness we each and all are, now.
And, fortunately ..... infinitely-fortunately .... there are a nearly infinite number of ways to know ourselves as wholeness ....... and there aren't any ways, ultimately, to not know ourselves as wholeness, forever.
Wholeness is this that we each and all ever are, now.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 9:09:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Just identify with the natural clarity and vividness of ordinary reality rather than the thoughtstream
This is the bottomline.
You don't identify anything. You leave it alone, including the thoughtstream. Recognizing the invisible Clear Light swallows all.
Adamant
There is no Clear Light to swallow all. See, I can also play the semantics game.
You're not playing a semantic game; you're just saying something false.
Adamant |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 10:41:11 PM
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whatever I think its best to just do what the infallible Jigme Lingpa and the Dalai Lama say:
Distinguish rigpa from sems.
Although you do technically need a lama for this. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 15 2009 10:55:54 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 10:58:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by WayneWirs
TI: You will find my book, The Implications of the Soul quite useful I'm sure. It's a free download. I don't even ask for an email address.
I was going through what you are currently going through about two years ago. Ken Wilber calls it the "Subtle Level" -- the level of the soul, or the Divine within. It is a very useful phase for dropping the personal self completely as it weakens the grip of the ego (if you focus on future lives--not past lives). See the book, you'll understand. http://waynewirs.com/impofsoul/ - Free, no personal info collected.
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for that. Hmmm.. I've done three past life regressions using crystals a few years ago, and then that episode I wrote about yesterday, that was the fourth life I've recognized. The last time I actively pursued past/future lives (a few weeks ago) I saw an endless chain of so many other lives that I got kind of disinterested in the past life thing.. Now I figure if there is some important past life that I'm supposed to know about, the LIGHT will show it to me, as it has done..
Yes, according the monks, the LIGHT is the soul body coming through. And repeated samadhis into the LIGHT will eventually make the LIGHT brighter and help you realize your soul. The process will eventually register into your mind that you are not the body or the mind, but the light. This is probably quite a blow to the ego, so I would think that it helps to dissolve the ego as well.
But, according the monks you are supposed to find the center of the light and then punch your way through to that center. It is supposed to take you to a clear light blue akasha space where the occult/siddhis may be performed. However, the monks say that you if you partake in siddhis at that point, it drags you back down into the lower states of consciousness and you have to start over. Instead, the monks suggest that when you are in the light blue akashic space beyond the light, that you must look for and find the top branch of the sushumna.
So, I'm meditating on the light. During today's meditation I almost found the center of the light. What happens is that I see so many scenes/faces/shapes that I really have to try hard to get to the just the pure light. The scenes/faces/shapes are a serious distraction and they are so powerful now. They suck you into them so quickly that it is a constant battle to try to get past them.. It is like trying to swim upriver against a raging current, or worse playing a game of ping pong with your awareness. I'll get better at it now that I know what to do. It's going to take a lot of effort.
Here is a little bit about what the monks have to say about reincarnation:
quote:
Reincarnation and karma in its cause-and-effect form are practically one and the same thing, for they both have to do with the pranic forces and these bodies of the external mind. The sannyasin's quest is Self Realization. To make that realization a reality, he always has to be conscious consciously of working out these other areas. Why? Because the ignorance of these areas holds and confuses awareness, preventing him from being in inner states long enough to attain the ultimate goal of nirvikalpa samadhi.
Little by little, as he goes on in his esoteric understanding of these mechanics, he unwinds and reeducates his subconscious. He conquers the various planes by cognizing their function and understanding their relation one to another. This knowledge allows him to become consciously superconscious all the time. He has sufficient power to move the energies and awareness out of the physical, intellectual and astral bodies into sushumna. Then the kundalini force, that vapor-like life force, merges into its own essence.
I appreciate the sincerity in your videos. Nice to see you have been adding more..
:)
TI
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 11:15:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
whatever I think its best to just do what the infallible Jigme Lingpa and the Dalai Lama say:
Distinguish rigpa from sems.
Although you do technically need a lama for this.
The Dalai Lama is not a Dzogchen expert. Citing the Dalai Lama is like citing President Obama as an expert in economics. He might know experts, but he's not one. Remember, there are three statements of Garab Dorje. Introduction is just one.
Adamant |
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Steve
277 Posts |
Posted - Dec 15 2009 : 11:37:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve
Hi Adamant,
I have been enjoying and learning from your many posts. Thank you for taking the time to share.
Your most recent discussion with Christi regarding the Buddha and the Christ spawns one question. Within your lineage and dzogchen practices does Heart and Love have a place? Could you please clarify, regarding. Thanks much.
Steve
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Originally posted by Adamant
Of course, it is the heart of the teaching. What is the essence of love? Unidentifiable, yet present. It is known in one's continuum, in one's heart. This presence is shown through the examples of the crystal ball, mirror and prism. Such is one's own nature, energy and manifestation. One is introduced directly the unidentifiable yet present nature of compassion which resides in the heart chakra. All appearances and possibilities abide nondual in the heart as emptiness, sound and light. All the manifestations of one's body and world radiate from here. This puts the individual in the center of the universe radiating reality as one's perfection of love. The whole cosmos is one's own heart.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
Thank you for the reply and clarification. Much appreciated.
Steve |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 12:23:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
whatever I think its best to just do what the infallible Jigme Lingpa and the Dalai Lama say:
Distinguish rigpa from sems.
Although you do technically need a lama for this.
The Dalai Lama is not a Dzogchen expert. Citing the Dalai Lama is like citing President Obama as an expert in economics. He might know experts, but he's not one. Remember, there are three statements of Garab Dorje. Introduction is just one.
Adamant
I agree with this.
By the way, the Dalai Lama is a Dzogchen expert. He is the foremost Dzogchen expert, alongside Norbu and Sogyal Rinpoche I would say. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4375 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 07:22:24 AM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
I said not ceasing, because nothing begins. There is no truth beyond that. If you think there is, you're dreaming a big, unimaginable dream, called whatever you want. Whatever you want to call it, it's a rest stop at the vista point on the freeway to nowhere. Once you stop driving, the possibilities are infinite.
Adamant
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With the Buddhist path, it can seem like that. It can seem like the end of the path is nothing and there is no reality. Actually, the teachings are simply a tool which are designed to help you to wake up. When you wake up, you wake up to that which is real from the dream of unreality. If we become too attached to the path, then the path itself can become a hindrace. This is what is meant by the finger pointing to the moon. The finger is not the moon. The tools, reflecting on the impermanence of all phenomenon, seeing the emptiness of all form, letting go of false attachment to ideas about the self as "not this", "not this", are the finger, the path. The moon is something else. It is what is awakened to, and of that, nothing can really be said, although in fact, as GuruswamiG pointed out in the video, all the rishis of all the ages have tried.
We cannot say that it is nothingness, because it is not. We cannot say that it is emptiness because it is not. We cannot say that it is unreal, because it is not. But we don't come upon truth by finding an adequate description of it in words, and then hanging on to that, saying: "this is it, now I know what is true". We come upon that which is true, by following a path of practice which leads to the awakening to truth. There are some who would say that there is no path, and that we are already awake, but ironically, in practice everyone who has ever woken up, has followed an effective spiritual path, before they arived at the point where they could say: "there is no path, we are already awake".
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 11:45:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
whatever I think its best to just do what the infallible Jigme Lingpa and the Dalai Lama say:
Distinguish rigpa from sems.
Although you do technically need a lama for this.
The Dalai Lama is not a Dzogchen expert. Citing the Dalai Lama is like citing President Obama as an expert in economics. He might know experts, but he's not one. Remember, there are three statements of Garab Dorje. Introduction is just one.
Adamant
I agree with this.
By the way, the Dalai Lama is a Dzogchen expert. He is the foremost Dzogchen expert, alongside Norbu and Sogyal Rinpoche I would say.
Re Dalai Lama. Really? That's not what Norbu says. In some circles Gyatrul Rinpoche is at the top of the Dzogchen ladder. But that's neither here nor there. Norbu gives lots of introductions.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 11:58:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
We cannot say that it is emptiness because it is not.
Christi
Everything you said is correct, except for the line I quoted. Attachment to emptiness as a concept is a huge problem. However, the innate disposition of the mind is given the term "emptiness," meaning without attachment, without confusion. Not nothingness, but not ultimate reality either: ineffible, open, not-two, present, unimpeded, clear, pure. In other words, emptiness is "voidness plus." It's voidness plus clear continuous presence. Not something becoming something else, but a continuous ever present constant state of being, where "being" means the abiding infinite potentiality. But it's voidness, because as soon as you peer into "infinite potentiality," there's nothing at all, because potentials are not real.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 16 2009 12:19:27 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 12:25:02 PM
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Do any of you know what emptiness means?
Emptiness refers to the discrepancy between every thoughtform and how reality actually is. This is the technical definition. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 16 2009 12:37:18 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4375 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 12:46:53 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
Everything you said is correct, except for the line I quoted. Attachment to emptiness as a concept is a huge problem. However, the innate disposition of the mind is given the term "emptiness," meaning without attachment, without confusion. Not nothingness, but not ultimate reality either: ineffible, open, not-two, present, unimpeded, clear, pure. In other words, emptiness is "voidness plus." It's voidness plus clear continuous presence. Not something becoming something else, but a continuous ever present constant state of being, where "being" means the abiding infinite potentiality. But it's voidness, because as soon as you peer into "infinite potentiality," there's nothing at all, because potentials are not real.
As I said above, trying to form statements in language which come as close approximations to reality, does not necessarily help us to come to know that reality. Such statements can inspire, or they can distract (if we get attached to them). In reality there is neither attachment, nor non-attachment, neither confusion nor non-confusion, so we cannot say that reality is emptiness. Being is in continual flow from the potential to the actual and back again into the potential. So reality is both infinite potentiality and infinite actuality and yet beyond both.
Voidness plus continual clear presence is the path, the finger, the gate. All the time, the moon is shining.
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 1:18:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Adamant,
quote:
Everything you said is correct, except for the line I quoted. Attachment to emptiness as a concept is a huge problem. However, the innate disposition of the mind is given the term "emptiness," meaning without attachment, without confusion. Not nothingness, but not ultimate reality either: ineffible, open, not-two, present, unimpeded, clear, pure. In other words, emptiness is "voidness plus." It's voidness plus clear continuous presence. Not something becoming something else, but a continuous ever present constant state of being, where "being" means the abiding infinite potentiality. But it's voidness, because as soon as you peer into "infinite potentiality," there's nothing at all, because potentials are not real.
As I said above, trying to form statements in language which come as close approximations to reality, does not necessarily help us to come to know that reality. Such statements can inspire, or they can distract (if we get attached to them). In reality there is neither attachment, nor non-attachment, neither confusion nor non-confusion, so we cannot say that reality is emptiness. Being is in continual flow from the potential to the actual and back again into the potential. So reality is both infinite potentiality and infinite actuality and yet beyond both.
Voidness plus continual clear presence is the path, the finger, the gate. All the time, the moon is shining.
Christi
In reality there is neither attachment, nor non-attachment, neither confusion nor non-confusion, so we CAN say that reality is emptiness. Being IS NOT in continual flow from the potential to the actual and back again into the potential BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ARISE AND THEREFORE CANNOT CEASE. So reality IS NOT both infinite potentiality and infinite actuality and yet beyond both.
Voidness plus continual clear presence is the path, the finger, the gate AND AT THE TIME IT IS the moon shining.
The void clear presence is the shining moon. Any idea about some "real" beyond this is just a dream.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 1:38:03 PM
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Christi,
P.S. Nirvikalpa samadhi is the samadhi of cessation. This is the highest samadhi, but samadhi is not the ultimate state. There's no ultimate. The methods begin from this recognition. From here, one manifests benefits for all sentient beings, magically. The ability to manifest is due to this recognition. But the manifesting is only liberation if oneself is liberated from afflictions and obscurations and the manifesting is for the purpose of liberating others. Now I've said all I want to say.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Dec 16 2009 1:48:08 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4375 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 2:22:13 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
In reality there is neither attachment, nor non-attachment, neither confusion nor non-confusion, so we CAN say that reality is emptiness. Being IS NOT in continual flow from the potential to the actual and back again into the potential BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ARISE AND THEREFORE CANNOT CEASE. So reality IS NOT both infinite potentiality and infinite actuality and yet beyond both.
Voidness plus continual clear presence is the path, the finger, the gate AND AT THE TIME IT IS the moon shining.
The void clear presence is the shining moon. Any idea about some "real" beyond this is just a dream.
Adamant
Labels fall away in the brilliant radiance of the moon. Truth doesn't have anything to do with labels, and it never did. labels can serve a purpose on the path, but ultimately it is about awakening to That which is real, to that which is true. Things that we were so certain about before and which were held onto tightly, are seen to have been mirages, drawings in the sand. Everything is let go of, and then there is peace and freedom and the arising of compassion.
So a useful question to ask at this stage is: "Do I have peace in my own heart?". Only when there is peace, can we really start to talk about liberating others.
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 3:34:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Adamant,
quote:
In reality there is neither attachment, nor non-attachment, neither confusion nor non-confusion, so we CAN say that reality is emptiness. Being IS NOT in continual flow from the potential to the actual and back again into the potential BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ARISE AND THEREFORE CANNOT CEASE. So reality IS NOT both infinite potentiality and infinite actuality and yet beyond both.
Voidness plus continual clear presence is the path, the finger, the gate AND AT THE TIME IT IS the moon shining.
The void clear presence is the shining moon. Any idea about some "real" beyond this is just a dream.
Adamant
Labels fall away in the brilliant radiance of the moon. Truth doesn't have anything to do with labels, and it never did. labels can serve a purpose on the path, but ultimately it is about awakening to That which is real, to that which is true. Things that we were so certain about before and which were held onto tightly, are seen to have been mirages, drawings in the sand. Everything is let go of, and then there is peace and freedom and the arising of compassion.
So a useful question to ask at this stage is: "Do I have peace in my own heart?". Only when there is peace, can we really start to talk about liberating others.
Christi
Well said. Bravo.
Adament |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4375 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2009 : 5:20:07 PM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
I can't actually say, in conjunction with the no-bodily-awareness phase of nirvikalpa samadhi, whether my heartbeat or breath might have stopped, during that phase (during meditation, over a period of a few months, during meditation, probably the beginning of 2008 or so).
However, per the fact that at any time there's been sufficient bodily awareness to tell, my heart has been beating, and I've generally been breathing, except for fairly brief instances of the breathless state (which always happen spontaneously) .... combined with intuition .... I'd say my heart likely didn't stop, nor did my breathing.
Yes, this ties in with what is normally described as nirvikalpa samadhi in Yoga, a state in which awareness is completely withdrawn from the physical realm and all other realms below the absolute (void). Coming back down from nirvikalpa samadhi, after passing through the realms of infinite light, the universe is seen in the distance as a point of light. Past and future lives are seen reaching out through the ether, yet at the same time it is seen clearly that they have no relevance at all, because we were never really that. The dream is seen through.
These are the common characteristics that accompany descriptions of the experience of full nirvikalpa samadhi, and it is also my own experience.
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And, also as mentioned before:
There are many who have realized enlightenment .... who have never experienced nirvikalpa samadhi, or any other kind of samadhi.
That may be true in the early stages of enlightenment. Personally, I would doubt that it is true in the higher stages.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Dec 16 2009 5:24:27 PM |
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Wayne Wirs: Newly-Minted Enlightened Guy
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