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Ananda
3115 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 04 2009 : 1:05:21 PM
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hi Scott, just wondering what are you practicing now
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2009 : 1:30:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Konchok Osel Dorje,
quote:
Scott, Quick question. With awareness watching awareness are objects of perception "in" awareness or "same as" awareness?
The two are inseparable...but that's not really relevant to the actual practice of this.
So is awareness of awareness the complete path? |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2009 : 1:49:30 PM
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quote:
AWA is a practice to be used with caution by all but those who naturally find themselves spending much time focused on and in awareness.
Here's a hint about AWA that makes it safe:
If you think you're aware of awareness, then what is aware of it?
In other words - drop whatever you think is awareness. |
Edited by - Scott on Sep 04 2009 1:53:11 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 04 2009 : 1:51:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Osel,
quote:
Christi, Can you really say awareness is an object? This is not just a nit-picky point, IMO. But fundamental.
Yes... it becomes the point where object and subject merge into one. Language fails us (once again!). This is the transition from being merged with the witness, to the direct experience of Oneness... also called, abiding in the non-dual state. What is it like? Paradise on Earth... even as the Earth is dissolving all around us.
Christi
I like this.
I had an interesting moment reading the Lankavatara Sutra, my new fav. It goes on and on in detail about the egolessness of persons and the egolessness of things, the non-entity of Isvara, no ego-soul found in the skandhas, etc., the usual Buddhist fare.
Then, in the last chapter of verses, the Buddha says something very surprising:
quote:
750. The Mind primarily pure is the Tathagata's Garbha which is good but is attached to [as an ego-soul] by sentient beings; it is free from limitation and non-limitation.
751. As the beautiful colour of gold and gold among pebbles become visible by purification, so is the Alaya among the Skandhas of a being.
752. The Buddha is neither a soul nor the Skandhas, he is knowledge free from evil outflows; clearly perceiving him to be eternally serene, I take my refuge in him.
753. The Mind, primarily pure, is with the secondary passions, with the Manas, etc., and in union with the ego-soul—this is what is taught by the best of speakers.
754. The Mind is primarily pure, but the Manas, etc., are other than that; varieties of karma are accumulated by them, and thus there are defilements giving rise to dualism.
755. The ego [primarily] pure has been defiled on account of the external passions since the beginningless past, (359) and what has been added from outside is like a [soiled] garment to be washed off.
756. As when a garment is cleansed of its dirt, or when gold is removed from its impurities, they are not destroyed but remain as they are; so is the ego freed from its defilements.
757. Imagining that a melodious sound obtains in a lute, a conch-shell, or in a kettle-drum, the unintelligent thus seek something of an ego-soul within the Skandhas.
758. As one tries to find precious stones in the treasure-house, or in water, or underneath the ground, where they are invisible, so do [they seek] a soul in the Skandhas.
759. As the unintelligent cannot take hold of a mind and what belongs to it as a group, and their functions which are connected with the Skandhas, so [they cannot find] an ego-soul in the Skandhas.
760. As the womb is not visible to the woman herself who has it, so the ego-soul is not visible within the Skandhas to those who have no wisdom.
761. Like the essence of the medicinal herb, or like fire in the kindling, those who have no wisdom do not see the ego-soul within the Skandhas.
762. Trying to find permanency and emptiness in all things, the unenlightened cannot see them; so with the ego-soul within the Skandhas.
763. When there is no true ego-soul, there are no stages, no self-mastery, no psychic faculties, no highest anointing, no excellent Samadhis.
(360) 764. If a destroyer should come around and say, "If there is an ego, show it to me;" a sage would declare, "Show me your own discrimination."
765. Those who hold the theory of non-ego are injurers of the Buddhist doctrines, they are given up to the dualistic views of being and non-being; they are to be ejected by the convocation of the Bhikshus and are never to be spoken to.
766. The doctrine of an ego-soul shines brilliantly like the rising of the world-end fire, wiping away the faults of the philosophers, burning up the forest of egolessness.
767. Molasses, sugar-cane, sugar, and honey; sour milk, sesame oil, and ghee—each has its own taste; but one who has not tasted it will not know what it is.
768. Trying to seek in five ways for an ego-soul in the accumulation of the Skandhas, the unintelligent fail to see it, but the wise seeing it are liberated.
This passage reminds me of the meaning of the Dharma: "give it up." Don't cling to ego; for that clinging the Buddha teaches the wisdom of not finding ego anywhere. For those clinging to non-ego, the Buddha teaches the wisdom of purified ego.
Not this or that. Give it up. The mind in its natural state. The inevitability of enlightenment by staying out of our own way. The blessings pouring down by remaining open. The attainment of effortlessness.
"Freedom" is freedom from all fixation and ideation. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 04 2009 2:15:56 PM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 04:35:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott
quote:
AWA is a practice to be used with caution by all but those who naturally find themselves spending much time focused on and in awareness.
Here's a hint about AWA that makes it safe:
If you think you're aware of awareness, then what is aware of it?
In other words - drop whatever you think is awareness.
This is a very subtle level of mental discrimination. My concern is for those who may not have developed such a capacity (and its attendant kundalini resolution) and may be tempted to adopt the practice of AWA because it is promoted as a very direct method of realisation. For one who has this level of discrimination, there is no problem.
There is no way of storming heaven before one's time. Attempts to do so just lengthen the journey.
chinna |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 08:16:42 AM
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It's not subtle and doesn't require any capacity. If you think you are incapable of dropping whatever is in your awareness, then that is a blockage in your belief only. Spending 20 minutes actually trying should change your mind.
Not saying that someone should try a practice that feels wrong to them (or that they believe is potentially harmful). That will set you up for failure.
What I am saying is that those who haven't practiced this, shouldn't be commenting on it. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 08:38:26 AM
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i scd hand Scott on this, the practice is very simple and direct let's just let people practice and see for themselves if it works for them or not.
some are born with inner silence present as we all know...
and concerning kundalini problems, we know how to handle that stuff now.
so let's not make people scared of a practice that might be beneficial for them.
light and love,
Ananda |
Edited by - Ananda on Sep 05 2009 08:46:20 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 1:00:04 PM
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hi all,
after reading the book on the practice more carefully and experience with the practice more i've come to realize that this is not an enquiry practice it's just a form of meditation and "an effective one to say the least."
and it can be practiced by people at any level, the results are progressive.
and this topic should be transferred to the other systems of spiritual practices forum.
namaste |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 1:01:21 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4381 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 1:11:32 PM
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Hi Ananda and all,
quote:
i scd hand Scott on this, the practice is very simple and direct let's just let people practice and see for themselves if it works for them or not.
some are born with inner silence present as we all know...
and concerning kundalini problems, we know how to handle that stuff now.
It is true that in some cases people are born with inner silence present. They are already ripe. But we don't need to worry about those people... they are already beyond the stage of concern. It is also true that some people know how to manage Kundalini excesses, but not everyone. At this point in time, I would say, not the vast majority of the population, or even the vast majority of those undertaking spiritual practices.
Once someone has naturally abiding inner silence present, and at least some of the major purification work is out of the way, then I would say this is a great practice to be undertaking. The question for any AYP practitioner though would be, does it add anything on top of Deep Meditation? If it doesn't, then it may not be so usefull for someone with a limited amount of time available twice a day and the whole of humanity to serve in between.
For someone with plenty of time on their hands, then this practice could easily be incorporated into the AYP routine, watching out for the energetic impact of doubling up on practices. If someone is not following the AYP programme, but instead are putting together a routine of spiritual practices taken from various places, I would advise them to employ the system of self-pacing used in the AYP approach when adding any powerful meditation practices to their routine. That way, the worse cases of energetic overload can be avoided.
Christi
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 1:38:16 PM
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hi Christy, as i said before i do this practice at night time and i think most people can arrange that for an hour or so. (and it's good to have a practice like this one during retreats)
concerning the energetic aspect, this practice seems to quiet things down not the opposite but i still have to give it more experimenting to see where it would lead...
and it does create a habit like samyama does, plus my deep meditation seems to be more deep now..
i should point out that i've been having burning bhakti fever like hell for almost three weeks or so and when i go through such phases i usually stumble upon a spiritual person or a new practice and this time i stumbled on both the AWA and a resident from Amma's ashram who is visiting his home country for a while...
quote:
"Go deep into the sense of 'I am'
and you will find.
How do you find a thing
you have mislaid or forgotten?
You keep it in your mind
until you recall it.
The sense of being,
of 'I am' is the first to emerge.
Ask yourself whence it comes,
or just watch it quietly.
When the mind stays in the 'I am',
without moving,
you enter a state which cannot be verbalized
but can be experienced.
All you need to do is to try and try again."
-Nisargadatta Maharaj from I AM THAT
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 1:40:45 PM
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I bought Michael Langford's book way back in the day.
It was good stuff except you do NOT need to do seated meditation, as Michael Langford demanded in that book. In fact it was way better to employ his techniques in the mall or other public place, which is essentially what I prescribed in the Rainbow Body thread on page 12.
Maybe Michael Langford changed his thinking since the book, but back then he DEMANDED seated meditation, where I am adamant that seated meditation is a hindrance.
Now I do trance meditation as part of other practices, but that has nothing to do with finding the unspeakable essential quality of life. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 05 2009 2:05:29 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 3:12:11 PM
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hi alwayson,
Michael still demands seated meditation, there's no change in anything.
what i am doing during the day is a personal practice, it's a slight change in the habit of awareness and enquiry i used to have..
btw i think that this book is a good read for people who are on the spiritual path it's pretty interesting and brings forth some new insights concerning the ego.
namaste
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 3:41:38 PM
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If thats the case my instructions are better, considering I have indeed practiced Michael Langford's book.
I even used to do the sitting practice and everything. I will give you his same insight in a fraction of the time, or your money back:)
Walk around and focus intensely on mundane visual and audio details in the present moment. Examples are wrinkles in people's clothes or a baby crying in the mall. Or the color of the toothbrush handle and the sound of the water faucet. Even the cracks in the sidewalk, or the sounds of a passing airplane. Internal body sensations also count.
Now the second part is to freely use the mind, as long as all thoughts have absolute relevence to the present moment.
Keep this up strictly for all waking hours for two days.
During this time, you will realize that "I" is literally a thought ala Michael Langford. You can even practice it right now. Repeat in your mind "I am looking at a computer screen", which you are. See how "I" is LITERALLY a thought.
On the later half of the second day, bring to mind various friends and family, and recognize how they exist in your mind as a flawed packet of memories and future projections. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 05 2009 4:09:12 PM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 4:00:57 PM
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brother alwayson i don't mean to undermine what you're teaching (http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....age=12#54566) but it sounds like simple discrimination for me and everything you said has been realized a long time way back experience wise that is.
btw Anthony De Mello teaches the same stuff, and he brought to mainstream spirituality a lot of the same stuff which people like Tolle and Byron Katie are teaching now.
anw in his book Michael teaches discrimination in precise and that it should be practiced throughout the day.
it seems that this topic which teaches smthg very simple and direct (it's really really very simple direct and naked) have been caught in ego games and comparisons...
let's just practice what we feel inclined to practice and each can find out for himself if there are any fruits in the pudding.
light and love,
Ananda |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 4:01:50 PM
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we cross posted while you edited |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 4:03:58 PM
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| and everything exists as love and is love, we are just waves flowing on top of that. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 4:05:27 PM
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| this time we cross posted as you deleted, and i respect your opinion of course. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 4:13:25 PM
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| I reedited to include Michael Langford's contribution. |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 5:00:55 PM
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Alwayson2,
That's a good practice of mindfulness, but is not the AWA method. People can read the actual instructions for themselves.
Personally, I found that sitting for a long period while practicing it is quite important.
I don't want to keep coming here to say these kinds of things, so I'll leave it at that. I've said more than enough! |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 5:14:32 PM
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Why does everyone misunderstand my instructions as mindfullness?
I have confirmed my understanding with many Advaita, Zen, Dzogchen books. (According to Dzogchen, you cannot realize rigpa without a lama, but I disagree.)
I was a consultant for this, although my understanding has since outgrew it:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot....erience.html
Langford's methods are highly flawed for many reasons, but his insights into ego mechanics are correct. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 05 2009 5:42:48 PM |
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Scott
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 6:08:52 PM
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I agree that your method is like Advaita, Zen and Dzogchen...but it's not the same as the AWA method.
Since you think the AWA method is flawed, why are you commenting here? Thanks for your opinion that it's flawed...now, moving on... |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2009 : 1:52:19 PM
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They way I read it, the AWA method is another name for rigpa and mahamudra.
My experience is that one doesn't get really far without a Guru practice of some kind, but that is a different point.
The view of Mahamudra and Dzogchen is exactly awareness of awareness. The pith instructions of these lineages teach to "see mind, at the moment," or to "view the space-like awareness." My teachers say, "it's not awareness," because they are always trying to prevent identification and foster the seeing nothing part. Also, the pointing out instructions point out more than just awareness of awareness.
Awareness of awareness is a good place to start non-dual meditation. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Sep 06 2009 1:56:01 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2009 : 2:05:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
If thats the case my instructions are better, considering I have indeed practiced Michael Langford's book.
I even used to do the sitting practice and everything. I will give you his same insight in a fraction of the time, or your money back:)
Walk around and focus intensely on mundane visual and audio details in the present moment. Examples are wrinkles in people's clothes or a baby crying in the mall. Or the color of the toothbrush handle and the sound of the water faucet. Even the cracks in the sidewalk, or the sounds of a passing airplane. Internal body sensations also count.
Now the second part is to freely use the mind, as long as all thoughts have absolute relevence to the present moment.
Keep this up strictly for all waking hours for two days.
During this time, you will realize that "I" is literally a thought ala Michael Langford. You can even practice it right now. Repeat in your mind "I am looking at a computer screen", which you are. See how "I" is LITERALLY a thought.
On the later half of the second day, bring to mind various friends and family, and recognize how they exist in your mind as a flawed packet of memories and future projections.
What do you mean by "absolute relevance"? That's analysis. So you realize "I" is just a thought, so what? So you realize persons are just thoughts, so what? Honestly, this practice JUST ORDINARY THINKING. It does NOTHING to liberate these attachments. Seeing and liberation are distinct. You have to incorporate the liberation part. And simply relying on the present moment, like it's an automatic liberation machine is not going to work. The natural liberation function comes a from seeing the emptiness of the present moment and all that arises within it. This is what pointing out instructions are for, and why Dzogchen is more than a flier which reads "Liberation is just the present moment." |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Sep 06 2009 : 2:26:55 PM
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Just reading my method won't do anything. You have to actually do it.
That insight is important...not the method. There is zero insight from just reading my post on an internet forum. Thats why people think it is some sort of mindfulness exercise, when its not.
IMO, what I have outlined is the quickest path to what they call self-realization in neo-Advaita/neo-Zen
This is my method not Dzogchen point of view. I am not a Dzogchen practitioner. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 06 2009 2:45:19 PM |
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The Awareness Watching Awareness Method
