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solo
USA
167 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 08:25:21 AM
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OK, I am still gathering information about this set of practices and beliefs known as tantra. I have a couple questions:
1. Why do female practitioners call themselves Goddesses? Aren't we all just people? The idea of a person refeerring to themselves as a Goddess kind of sounds ego driven to me. Is this merely their way of expressing their enlightenment or connection to the divine? Would someone explain this practice?
2. Is the female somewhat all important in a tantric relationship? I have always believed in equality of all peoploe, especially equality of both people in an intimate relationship. Do men that practice tantra in any way feel less than their partners? Subserviant?
Please don't be offended. These questions probably reflect that I don't understand. But I want to. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 1:59:48 PM
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I don't really know, solo, but I can throw in some associations here, whatever it's worth...
1. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.  We are Shiva/Shakti, the formless consciousness expressed as energy in form, so in a way we Are the God/Goddess manifested as ordinary "people". I don't think most tantric practitioners are aware of the depths of that, but use the term "Goddess" about themselves in order to sound more spiritual, not as an ego-thing necessarily but as a habit.
2. I believe in equality in relationships as well. However, I think an emphazis on the Goddess in tantric books etc might have a reason. The feminine is what has been used for so many years by the masculine mind, and now the Goddess is returning with great force. Women who become True grow in integrity and the old sexual ways are no longer valid, hence the tantric practices, which are transforming the old sexual energy into higher frequencies. Men practicing tantra hopefully don't feel less than their partners, but are the God meeting the Goddess in Truth and Love!
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 3:09:06 PM
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Hi Solo,
My personal (and very limited!) knowledge and vision (and little experience  ):
I know that in ancient times, and initially, specific processes/rituals were practiced to create or attract entities, Goddesses that had certain qualities and powers..
Also, the term "Goddess" is linked to the vision that All is divine feminine energy, Shakti, creation, expanding..and the human embodiment of this divine force is naturally woman..
Woman's energy goes naturally from Earth to Heaven, whereas man's energy system is the manifestation of the opposite way (Heaven to Earth).
But fortunately, we both have male/female energy running through our system in opposite proportions.
Knowing that in order to develop higher consciousness we (both) must direct our energies upward (Shakti/kundalini), woman's natural ability can help a man to expand upward.
Once the system is open, (thanks to daily tantric practices also of course!), both man and woman become "equal" in front of sexual energy and they can "dance" together towards infinite bliss..
Yogani's tantra book is an easy and practical tool to understand woman's role in Tantra as well as a full scope of what Tantra is basically.
The Goddess is in you  |
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solo
USA
167 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 3:37:51 PM
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| Thank you both for those replies. Those answers remove some of my doubt/fear. Unfortunately, when I don't understand something I tend to gravitate towards fear. I am trying to grow out of this behavior and it is not easy. |
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 4:10:39 PM
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Hi again Solo,
Don't worry, you are not "solo" on planet Earth..
It's good that we want to understand.
The best way is to face our fear, to look at it simply as it is, without judgement..
The best way to "know", to "understand", is to jump right into the water (=the unknown)..
WHatever you fear, know that the fear will remain until you simply touch with your finger and taste, as innocently as a child, but with awareness..
The best lesson I try not to forget myself is: "take your time, experiment with every single thing you do, starting from your very senses.."
Slowly slowly, as you let go and explore, play, perceive, fear will drop by itself.
Just open up and play watchfully. |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 4:13:48 PM
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This worries me as it seems such a modern phenomenon, and I think, yes, it can be an ego thing to call yourself 'goddess' or 'dakini' or 'Shiva' or whatever (and these days it seems quite strongly associated with the sex industry). It also gets weird if people call themselves 'a god' or 'a goddess' with the implication that they are and you aren't, of course!
Other than that, I'm not saying it's a bad thing except if taken seriously out of the context of actual hard-earned knowledge, initiation, empowerment, etc etc. I have a problem with the 'dakini' thing as a Dakini is something specific, either an entirely otherworldly being like Vajrayogini or a teacher like Machig Labdron or Yeshe Tsogyal, both so exceptional that they became Buddhas in their own right (and profoundly affected Vajrayana).
But meanwhile, not only is every woman the goddess, but every man too and indeed everything we can experience or even concieve of.
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 4:25:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
But meanwhile, not only is every woman the goddess, but every man too and indeed everything we can experience or even concieve of.
True |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2009 : 1:57:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by christiane
Woman's energy goes naturally from Earth to Heaven, whereas man's energy system is the manifestation of the opposite way (Heaven to Earth).
Hello Christiane & All,
When I first read the quote above, I misunderstood for a couple of minutes (I thought you were saying woman was transcendent and man was imminent) ... but then, I "got" it, and realized that you obviously do, too.
I know the symbolism well ... I just misunderstood ... because I was thinking {<- problematic, much of the time!  } of what Heaven and Earth are symbolized *by* ... as opposed to the *directionality* of the paths.
It's helpful for all of us to remember that these symbol-sets point to universally realized spiritual truths - every mystical path symbolizes them in much the same way.
The creative power is always symbolized as being female/maternal ... and the seed/source of the power is male/paternal ... and they're both essential to manifesting balanced/enlightened experience of/as reality.
In all traditions, and specifically in Tantric traditions, Shiva/Male symbolism represents the formless Absolute - the Infinite Light of Pure Awareness - Prakasha, in Sanskrit.
Shakti/Female symbolism represents the manifested universe of ever-oscillating form - the Infinite Light of Pure Awareness Reflecting the Glory of Divinity, eternally united in Reality; Vimarsa, in Sanskrit.
That's why some tantrics use the expression "Shivo'ham" - I Am Shiva - this phrase is an acknowledgment of the symbolism as male divinity as the formless, unattached to form.
It's also why the term Shakti is equated with Power ---- the ONLY power that formless male divinity has, awareness manifesting in form!
The Sun is awesome .... but we don't know the Sun; we have no idea what it "is" ... we only know it by its Power & Glory ... by the Light & Heat it radiates.
Likewise, we come to know ourselves as Divine, fully, *only* through the manifestation of divinity ... which is .... everything.
And that is why we can all joyously bow, celebrate and dance together in and as the Glory of God, the Power of God --- which *is* Shakti ... which *is* the perceptible.
Of course, none of this is meant to imply that biological body-minds are predominant in one quality, and lacking in the other ..... as the Buddhist Heart Sutra helpfully and accurately points out (see: quantum physics) -- form is emptiness, emptiness is form.
Every human has form, every human has awareness; form without awareness tends to dominate, though - until yogic or similar practices open up the infinite gateway back home to this beautiful singing silence we each and all are now.
In order for this gateway to be opened and realized -- form, and creation with, from, in and as form is needed ... is esssential ... in the same way that a human woman's body-mind and energies are needed to give form to the seed implanted in her by the human man (hence the symbolism) ...... which is probably why, more than any other reason, the Goddess is so universally revered and honored.
The illustration given in Kashmir Shaivism is that of two bowls placed edge-to-edge, forming a unified sphere .... each bowl is utterly integral to the wholeness, and each bowl is every bit as essential to the wholeness.
Awareness without form is emptiness ... no-thing.
Form without awareness is unconsciousness .... energies acting upon energies without awareness.
Awareness-Form is Divinity-Humanity ... the perfect harmony of Infinite Awareness and Finite Form that is the true glory of God(dess) - the condition of enlightened Human Being.
From the Heart of Unified Reality,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jun 24 2009 7:23:47 PM |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2009 : 4:36:19 PM
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1.I know what you mean.However the word "Goddess" re-instates the importance of the woman/goddess in tantric practices.
Whereas in normal sexual relations the man is in control(i.e takes control in order to ameliorate the fact he does'nt feel so) but actually not in control ( becuase he is not ahead of orgasm) here the woman is now in control. By that i mean the woman is the more active member, so roles move closer towards a reversal, i.e actual more equality. You see the man is not absorbed in chasing orgasms, indeed if he is doing his tantra practices he is in the opposite direction,and will be quite naturally witholding peaking(indeed enjoying,wanting, aiming for so). So the balance is more equal.The woman slides then towards the more active(dominant) role though the man, involved in tantric training, is involved in actve surender though pretty in control. So you see there is a different(more equal) dynamic and a slight paradox here. I believe however in true complete tantric relations there is complete equality( you would need a woman engaged in tantric practices for that or some kind of high priestess...sorry solo....aadept..because..---->2.)
2. I believe the woman is the initiator.The man can reach high levels engaged in tantric practices himself but he may go even higher if he enages with a woman who is also engaged in the (spirito-sexual) training.But don't be intimadated by it.
Tantra is about connnecting opposite polarities,male and female in all aspects of the princiiple, though really the union (shiva/shakti) really goes on internally inside of us.That is why we can find ecstatic joyous and complete union in partners we have been with for a lifetime,or with or without any partner. man and woman have a mixture of both,male and female, though usually more of one defined by their gender, i.e biology.Tantra,& yoga, opens up this reality and possiblility. So in the end there is unity and great liberation. My own advice is if it done from a place of genuine love, no-holds barred, then really this is the heart of tantric relations.
So my advice solo, the woman is important but don't be intimidated. The little red book is fantastic.
I used to do a practice involving SbP, in it's essence, pre-orgasm and it pretty much transmuted desire by raising your sexual energy to higher areas of the body. I gained ojas and and could feel desire but not be affected by it. Quite remarkable really..and what a revealtion
To recap Q.2- is he subserveint? -yes he is, but also he is not- it is a strange paradox- like a contradiction.
this stuff really takes you off the radar of "normal" human experience and to higher states of human consciousness- it is really truly liberating- has to be experienced to be appreciated.
This is not where i am just now so i have to say- look this is where i am just now and move on from there. i can speak from past experience but i don't currently live this way, so what i say is somewhat empty.i'm just reminsicing. this is not the NOW however. this is part of my problem but i think DM should help.ahhh... the way things were. Time to move on............. for good.
love
Akasha
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Edited by - Akasha on Jun 25 2009 10:01:11 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2009 : 03:13:44 AM
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Kirtanman,
Just a detail, but I sense there's some sort of mix up in this part, or is it just me getting you wrong?
"Shiva/Male symbolism represents the formless Absolute - the Infinite Light of Pure Awareness - Prakasha, in Sanskrit.
Shakti/Female symbolism represents the manifested universe of ever-oscillating form - the Infinite Light of Pure Awareness Reflecting the Glory of Divinity, eternally united in Reality; Vimarsa, in Sanskrit."
Shiva is not The Absolute or Pure Awareness, is he? Is that what you mean by writing "represents"? The way I see it here, Shiva is Consciousness, one side of the coin. Shakti is the other side of the coin. The formless mirrored in form. The Shiva-shakti (or Yin/Yang) are the first creative basic principles of Duality. They come from The Absolute, genderless, the undescribable Pure Awareness, The Source. There is Awareness of Consciousness, so Shiva is not the ultimate. That's why for example Hare Krishna's dismiss Shiva - it's Krishna that is the Absolute.
Multiplicity/variation, manifested men and women --> 2 principles masculine/feminine --> 1 Oneness --> 0 (or perhaps even:) -->
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Edited by - emc on Jun 25 2009 03:26:41 AM |
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Shakti Love
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2015 : 1:31:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by christiane
Woman's energy goes naturally from Earth to Heaven, whereas man's energy system is the manifestation of the opposite way (Heaven to Earth).
Actually the accepted understanding in the agama is the opposite. Shakti is the descending, dynamic force that brings about the manifest world. Shiva is the ascendent force returning to spirit. Upon manifestation, Shakti becomes coiled and latent, in human terms at the base of the spine at Muludara. She returns to join with Shiva to become transcendent Parashakti again.
There's a bias to thing of "up" as good and "more spiritual" and "down" as bad and less spiritual or "negative". These constructs just get in the way. That also goes for "male" and "female" which are merely limited, binding formations of Maya Shakti. Tantra seeks to transcend these dualities. Playing with and reversing these polarities so that they flow freely in either "direction" is perhaps the key tool of Tantra. |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2015 : 4:04:28 PM
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Hi,
You seem to be only discussing one side of the coin that of the left handed practices of Tantra. The right handed practices of Tantra is celibate and the pre orgasmic practices etc have no place.As Yogani stated in the old title of Tantra - it is not all about sex.
L&L
Dave |
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