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gentlep
USA
114 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 27 2008 : 6:25:19 PM
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I have been practicing noticing the gaps between breaths and I find it soothing. Now I do it on any free time I get. I don't yet see the connection between the gap in breath and thoughtlessness.
For me thoughts are like one slowly goes out of focus while other comes in focus. There is a slight overlap but no gap. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 28 2008 : 07:56:26 AM
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Balance said
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"I'll elaborate a bit on this from my experience. The "gap" is always "there". I don't see it so much now as in bringing my awareness fully to each thing, it's more like I see that awareness is the gap. The mind and its objects are the shifting and hopping.
If I experience depression it has something to do with consciousness of the mind and the objects rather than the gap. I can't seem to come up with a better explanation beyond that how it is for me"
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Thanks for that perspective Balance. After reading this and Shweta's latest post I tried changing my perspective to coming from the silence in me and observing the surrounding objects out of this silence. It can be like you say, being in the gap and observing the objects out of that place - interesting
When you say "If I experience depression it has something to do with consciousness of the mind and the objects rather than the gap."
I'm wondering what you mean by consciusness?. What creates depression, in my understanding, is the linking of one thought or series of thought with others in the past and then projecting them into the future, with all the suffering that brings.
It is like the "shaft" linking the thoughts, as explained in the video above.
To me, when we go into the dream of connecting thoughts with past thoughts and/or future projections, creating a stream of stories about something, this is not consciousness, this can be suffering if the stories are not pleasant, and can lead to depression.
Consciousness, in my view, is seeing things in the here and now, as they are each moment. Whether our focus goes to the object or to the gap between the objects may not be important. If we are practicing one or the other in the here and now, it may be the same result.
However, becoming aware of the gap for me, indicates the vital importance of the development of "inner silence" with "present moment living" or mindfulness, and links all this with the process of samyama. So the practice of deep meditation and spinal breathing is put into perspective once again as being the core practice.
And Shweta I tried your exercise of coming into the silence of the body and focusing fully on one object and then slowly moving to another object and was amazed at the lovely feeling - thanks again for your insights
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Feb 29 2008 : 5:17:11 PM
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Hi Sparkle. Sorry for the cut and paste hack job, I still don't have all this quote stuff figured out.
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"Thanks for that perspective Balance. After reading this and Shweta's latest post I tried changing my perspective to coming from the silence in me and observing the surrounding objects out of this silence. It can be like you say, being in the gap and observing the objects out of that place - interesting"
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Actually, I think we are the gap.
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"When you say "If I experience depression it has something to do with consciousness of the mind and the objects rather than the gap."
I'm wondering what you mean by consciusness?. What creates depression, in my understanding, is the linking of one thought or series of thought with others in the past and then projecting them into the future, with all the suffering that brings.
It is like the "shaft" linking the thoughts, as explained in the video above.
To me, when we go into the dream of connecting thoughts with past thoughts and/or future projections, creating a stream of stories about something, this is not consciousness, this can be suffering if the stories are not pleasant, and can lead to depression.
Consciousness, in my view, is seeing things in the here and now, as they are each moment. Whether our focus goes to the object or to the gap between the objects may not be important. If we are practicing one or the other in the here and now, it may be the same result."
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It's like the identifying with a "me and my mind objects" is where the problems arise. Then the story and the drama are the engrossing consciousness. Ultimately that identification is where the suffering person is.
I think "being aware of the gap" and "being the gap" are along the same path, but different.
I don't know, I'm still learning
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Edited by - Balance on Feb 29 2008 7:00:54 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2008 : 2:44:30 PM
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Hi Balancequote:
It's like the identifying with a "me and my mind objects" is where the problems arise. Then the story and the drama are the engrossing consciousness. Ultimately that identification is where the suffering person is.
Yes, I think I get what you mean, does this poem express what you are talking about?http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=954
I think we are getting into the tricky area of duality and non-duality and what is real and what is not and my inclination is- wooooowwww there boy, get the hell out of there - I think you know what I mean.
But basically if we don't have much inner silence at the time, then my experience is that mindfulness with identification is an excellent starting point. If we are in a lot of psychological pain and just realise the only way out of it is to focus fully - 100% on the moment, then the pain can keep you there - in the moment. As soon as you come out of the moment you are back into pain. This in itself can create an opening, and has done on many occasions for me.
Mix in the deep meditation and spinal breathing to develop the inner silence and the cocktail gets much more potent, as you know.
When you say everything is the "gap", are you saying the gap is the same as "emptiness", the "void", the "shine", "Ma", "Tao" etc.? different expressions of the same ....
PS I liked your ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'s instead of quotes, if you want to use the formal quote then simply click the second last button in the row that says "format". It has a page of writing on it with a red arrow pointing to the right. This will create a quote] [quote thing on the page. Just paste the passage in between these quotes and hey presto the job is done. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2008 : 3:05:45 PM
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Beautiful poem Sparkle!
Thank you for trying to help me quote, I still don't get it  so I will do it my way again:
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"When you say everything is the "gap", are you saying the gap is the same as "emptiness", the "void", the "shine", "Ma", "Tao" etc.? different expressions of the same ...."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Or how about "sparkle" ?
Thank you Sparkle
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 08:00:31 AM
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"PS I liked your ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'s instead of quotes, if you want to use the formal quote then simply click the second last button in the row that says "format". It has a page of writing on it with a red arrow pointing to the right. This will create a quote] [quote thing on the page. Just paste the passage in between these quotes and hey presto the job is done."
On my screen it shows up as the fifth button at the top of each post with a red arrow to the left, and on mouse hover says "reply with quote" |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 11:29:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
"PS I liked your ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'s instead of quotes, if you want to use the formal quote then simply click the second last button in the row that says "format". It has a page of writing on it with a red arrow pointing to the right. This will create a quote] [quote thing on the page. Just paste the passage in between these quotes and hey presto the job is done."
On my screen it shows up as the fifth button at the top of each post with a red arrow to the left, and on mouse hover says "reply with quote"
Thanks Etherfish. I know how to use the quote option, but where I am confused is in how to select out just a portion of the quote to use in my post. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 3:29:53 PM
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| Just delete the parts of the text that you don't want! Just don't delete the [ ] bricks that says "quote" and "/quote" in them.... |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2008 : 4:18:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Just delete the parts of the text that you don't want! Just don't delete the [ ] bricks that says "quote" and "/quote" in them....
A big DUH! moment for meThat was too easy!
Thanks emc. (Does it help me any to say that I'm blonde? Or would that offend other blondes?) |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 6:14:49 PM
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Been experimenting on the gap from time to time over the last week or so.
Have found that bringing my attention to an object then slowely going to another object not too far away and then back but not quite back, just staying in the centre with a soft focus, the lovely feelings come.
Today I was standing looking at a doorway and did this from one door post to the other and then stayed in the middle with soft focus. I ended up there for 10 or 15 minutes not wanting to go anywhere, my eyes would close in reverie and open after a while back to the gap and close again. Could be quite addictive
Stumbled across another interesting variation too. Found that I could look at an object and then look at something in my mind internally. Then stop in the gap between, this was really strong.
Experimenting with this further I would look at something then draw my attention to the Divine Feminine in me and back out stopping in the middle between the two thoughts, this produced a really strong beautiful feeling. I would go back and forth sometimes then and the object would become the essence of the divine feminine also.
Lately I have been bringing in the soft white light of peace. I tried this in the same way, also the same effect, the soft white light would be experienced in the object I was looking at.
So then it occured to me to try this between the Divine Feminine and the White Light within me, between Shakti and Shiva I guess, this is having a profound effect.
If you havn't tried these it might be work a go
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 10 2008 : 11:09:21 PM
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| Hi Sparkle. I've done similar exercizes. It reminds me of daydreaming. |
Edited by - Balance on Mar 10 2008 11:27:34 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 11 2008 : 04:58:12 AM
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quote:
Hi Sparkle. I've done similar exercizes. It reminds me of daydreaming.
Hi Balance
Yeh, I get the comparison, except the difference for me is that one is in the conscious moment and the other is a dream
Funny too that this soft focus is what many zen people recommend when meditating - often looking at the proverbial wall. A soft focus without looking at anything in particular - into the gap perhaps! |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 07:20:04 AM
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Hey Balance
I was trying this again today and clicked into what you were talking about - I think!!.
Instead of looking at anything in particular I maintained the soft focus and allowed the automatic pilot in me to operate away. It is as you say like living in a daydream, the world going by, the cars the people, like thoughts floating by on the scape of silence.
I think emc has described this a few times as looking at ourselves in automatic pilot - I think I'm getting it now |
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brushjw
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - Mar 12 2008 : 10:38:29 PM
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Shanti,
Thanks so much for this post and your wonderful description. I came upon this thread last night when I was tired and just sort of filed your technique in my mind under "Interesting". For some reason this morning your idea came back to me at work, where I take many mini-mindfulness breaks every day. The gap seems associated with an energy that I've experienced through absorption in the Sound of Silence ("ringing" in my ears). There's a depth that's captivating.
Sound, silence, attention, energy, presence, reality, perception... it's slowly coming together...
aum namaste,
Joe |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 23 2008 : 3:34:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Recall that the original instruction for picking up a sutra in samyama is to pick it up at a very faint and fuzzy level. This can also be interpreted to mean "the energy before the thought."
The more we are picking up pre-thought, the more powerful samyama is, and the less we are grinding on gross thinking in the body-mind. This is a natural evolution that comes with deep meditation (cultivating the witness) and samyama (cultivating action from within the witness). It can't be forced. It is an evolution in stillness. We just favor less, and less will gradually come. And, as we know, less is more.
I had dropped samyama as a part of my twice a day sitting practice for some time now. It was a part of self inquiry and has been very useful in finding answers beyond the mind in my every day life and as a part of the Sunday group and healing for a few others. So I never did stop samyama, but it wasn't a part of my structured practice.
Few days back I was drawn to add samyama back to my twice a day routine. One wonderful experience was, I pulled something in my arm and it has been bothering me for a couple of months now.. but the day after I started samyama.. after I said "health" a couple of time.. my arm did an automatic movement.. and felt like a chiropractic adjustment.. and my arm has been fine since then.
The second thing happened today during global group.. I experienced what Yogani means by "pick it (sutra) up at a very faint and fuzzy level". It is at the edge of silence, pick the word up at the edge of silence and thought, don't think the word.. don't attach a meaning.. but pick the word at a very very unclear level.. and drop it into silence again.. the word should be like a part of a dream.. you know what it is.. but it has no meaning to you.
Thanks for explaining it so wonderfully Yogani.. its beautiful how everything in yoga finally fits together. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2008 : 10:53:44 AM
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what a beautiful post, thk you Shanti for opening and thx for everyone who participated in it.
Ananda |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2011 : 8:07:15 PM
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I just realized today, I was doing something very similar to this, but with a twist, over the past few days.
So we know the bliss techniques I had talked about in the first post.
"bring up a thought in your mind and just before the thought forms.. STOP.. and stay in that gap. You will feel a lot of bliss and ecstasy. Stay as long as you can in this gap.. it may be a few seconds or a few mins. Then bring the thought up in your mind... then drop the thought (let it fade away).. and just as it is fading away from your mind... Stop.. You should feel the same bliss. "
Later down the thread, Yogani explained how samyama works on this principle:
"Recall that the original instruction for picking up a sutra in samyama is to pick it up at a very faint and fuzzy level. This can also be interpreted to mean "the energy before the thought."
Few can do this in the beginning, so we go through the procedure in fairly external and clunky ways in the mind for a while. But, in time, the procedure refines, as is the case in all practices, and then we are touching those sutras before they become objects in the mind, just as you are describing. And, yes, then we have access to much more energy in practice ... and in daily activity as the habit of samyama becomes gradually more prevalent in our everyday life.
The more we are picking up pre-thought, the more powerful samyama is, and the less we are grinding on gross thinking in the body-mind. This is a natural evolution that comes with deep meditation (cultivating the witness) and samyama (cultivating action from within the witness). It can't be forced. It is an evolution in stillness. We just favor less, and less will gradually come."
So now comes the technique I have been doing automatically for the past few days... it is bringing up a specific thought and before the thought can form, holding it in the pre-thought energy for a bit (like super charging it) and then letting it drop in stillness... not letting it form.
So I know a thought I am thinking, it is going on in my head... so I stop... become aware/silent... then I start to bring up the thought... just before the thought forms, hold it in the energy/bliss of the pre thought... then drop it.
This works with the process of manifesting (creation), but before the manifesting becomes concrete letting it go in stillness.. so making it the unmanifest.
This process works with the energy of manifesting, adds this energy to the intention, super charges it and lets it go in stillness... which also magnifies it.
There is a very subtle difference between the bliss technique and samayama and this technique... very subtle.
Let me know if anyone tries it.
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WoodDragon
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2011 : 8:24:49 PM
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| I just want to say thank you Shanti for sharing this. I know I am late in the game here on this topic but I wanted to express my most sincere respects to you. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
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njethwa
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2011 : 11:08:10 AM
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Hello Shanti,
This is so wonderful. just few days ago I started doing Samyama. I am still in the clunky stage (as Yogani says :))
While I am still in the clunky stage I try different variations in order to get a "grip". My variation was exactly what you mentioned. I would mentally say the word 'love' and then after that block this word to pop up again. It is like you are playing the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whac-A-Mole game in the arcade.
Here the mole is the word 'love' and my mind (is it?) trying to block this word to pop again for another 15 seconds or so.
Only yesterday I stopped using the word and started associating feelings instead which is more clunky.
The other day I was reading some other forum thread where it was mentioned that you say a word and let it fall or fade way and before you completely forget about it bring up the word again.
So practicing that, my mind came up with the "mental echo" technique.
For eg. you say a word "love" mentally but aloud (whatever the perception of loudness you can associate) and then immediately say the same word "love" with less loudness and so on until the mind amplitude of the word love is almost zero and then again you start the word aloud and follow the cycle. LOVE+++++, LOVE+++, LOVE++, LOVE+, LOVE
where + indicates the mental loudness.
In simple terms, it is like trying to simulate an echo of a word but only in the mind.
I don't know if this will eventually lead me to better samyama sessions but it seems to be a good additional practice I have begun apart from the normal routine. All the additional stuff I do is on my desk during work :) |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2011 : 11:56:09 AM
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Hi Njethwa,
Thanks for sharing.
Really apprecaite your input.
I would suggest trying it this way...
after meditation... just sit for a few seconds... then say the word "love" once in your mind... then let it drop in silence, i.e. stop thinking the word and move into the silence that was cultivated in meditation. Don't try to do anything to make the word drop away or maintain the silence. The less techniques we introduce into core samyama the better. The mind loves to makes games out of everything and needs to make things more complicated.
The 15 seconds is just a guideline. If you can stay in the silence for only 2 second or 5 seconds or 10 seconds... that that is the level of inner silence you have cultivated. So stay in the silence between the sutras for as long as it happens naturally. Then when you realize you have moved into thinking, just pick the sutra again.
As you continue with meditation, and inner silence increase, the 15 seconds become very easy to maintain. But trying techniques to keep thoughts and the sutra away from your mind will add extra layers that you will then later have to learn to let go.
Just stay with the procedure described in the lesson. Once the clunky stage has passed and samyama becomes a natural process, then you can add other techniques to it. If you do it before, it will become a mind game.
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njethwa
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2011 : 12:18:03 PM
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Hi Shanti,
Thank you very much for the clarifications. I don't change the original techniques just try different variations through the day maybe as prep work for actual sessions. I was just reading some of your old posts where you mentioned about your initial Samyama attempts and now I see that you are an expert helping others. It gives tremendous hope for people like me:)
Thank you |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2011 : 12:36:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by njethwa
I was just reading some of your old posts where you mentioned about your initial Samyama attempts and now I see that you are an expert helping others. It gives tremendous hope for people like me:)
Thank you
Ha ha... yes.. samyama is my thing... one practice that has taught me so much.... and the main reason I think it works well for me is... I am lazy.. and really don't like experimenting... so I stick to the basics as given in the lessons.. and whatever else I need is given to me when I am ready for it through this practice. It is one practice where, the more you let go the expectations, the more you get.
Giving up can be so rewarding.  |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 02:15:14 AM
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i really like that Gap technique ..i can easily incorporate it in daily life ...i love samayama and Kashmir Shaivism
thx Shanti |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 08:13:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
i really like that Gap technique ..i can easily incorporate it in daily life ...i love samayama and Kashmir Shaivism
thx Shanti
Welcome Maheswari.
All of those things are my favorite too. |
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Something to try...
