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yogani
USA
5196 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 25 2007 : 11:44:10 AM
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Hi Jim:
An attitude can be either a doing or a non-doing, depending on whether it is projected desire or desire released into inner silence. In the latter case, the attitude will arise as stillness in action.
In other words, we have to learn to let go into inner silence before we can let go. 
Obviously, for this, the cultivation of inner silence as a priori is necessary, via deep meditation, and also learning to let go into That, which is samyama. When the released/surrendered impulses of our mind surge out from inner silence, it is something else besides personal projection. It is stillness in action, or outpouring divine love. No need to worry about that running amuck, or tempting us in any way. By the act of real samyama, we have gone beyond all such personal trifles.
If we have some fear about personal corruption, or whatever, that's okay. We can just keep meditating and the fear will go sooner or later, along with the possibility for egoic mishaps.
Of course, no one will ever be absolutely perfect, but there is no need to get in a tangle over it. The more advanced we become in yoga, the easier it is to compensate for our shortcomings. That too is an inner silence thing. 
The guru is in you.
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2007 : 12:08:49 PM
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Hi Yogani,
These posts of yours in this thread have been extremely insightful and helpful in expanding my understanding, thank you for your clarity.
Anthem11 |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2007 : 1:26:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yoganiIf we have some fear about personal corruption, or whatever, that's okay. We can just keep meditating and the fear will go sooner or later, along with the possibility for egoic mishaps.
I've seen, you've seen, we've all seen some rather spectacular egoic mishaps in a great many people who've meditated beautifully for decades. In fact, such result, over the past couple centuries at least, seems nearly the rule rather than the exception. So with all due respect (and that's a lot of respect indeed), I don't buy it, Yogani.
But you're at least half right. I suspect that the accomplished masters with the horrendous egoic mishaps had no fear whatsoever about personal corruption, perhaps thanks in part to meditation. The trepidation did indeed "go" for them. I sincerely hope it hasn't entirely for you.
quote:
Of course, no one will ever be absolutely perfect
Oh, yes, I agree! My point (which perhaps I didn't make clearly enough) is that imperfect beings, who are awash (to varying degrees) in desire and attachment ought not be working to supercharge those worldly desires and attachments. First, because applying cosmic power to imperfect goals is not such a great idea. But also because applying power to such ends impedes our path by drawing us in to the very vortex we seek to escape. The ends we grab at grab us back with equal force. Applying spiritual power to the process tightens the binding. Yes, you get the results. But at what price? I'm trying to liberate, not bind more tightly.
Of course, one rationalizes via egoic self-assurance that one's aim is good and just and has nothing to do with ego ("indeed...see how good and just and nonegoic I am!"). One may well deceive oneself into a conviction that this self-assurance comes from elsewhere than ego. And perhaps it sometimes does. Who knows? Ego's always there to some degree, and has an infinite number of gambits for achieving its ends. I don't freak out about it, but I certainly don't buy it power tools or seek to favor (much less empower) its clingings and yearnings.
As you well know, this isn't my personal "theory" or some errant fear to be assuaged with a smile. What I'm saying is echoed in virtually all spiritual systems, especially Christianity.
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 25 2007 1:40:40 PM |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2007 : 6:57:20 PM
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Jim,
when I look at what you are saying, this comes forward: Jim is right, totally right, except not quite right that Yogani and others, are making a mistake.
How is this possible, since there seem to be contradictions in what you say?
Well Jim, I think the approach you are taking is exactly right for you at this point. The approach -- and the ability to follow it -- is itself the result of spiritual development. As you express it, people will in different measure, be able to follow it. When, and only when, the time is right for them. Which is actually true of all spiritual teachings ever.
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2007 : 7:08:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Maximus
For example if I'm an introverted unpopular guy unable to get dates with women,
Dear Max,
The Buddha said "with our thoughts (also intentions and actions) we make the world"
So maybe you now can't remember how your own actions made you this guy who you believe is unattractive to women (this may or may not be actually true) Perhaps you might consider what your intention was when creating this condition. Perhaps it is a boon you worked very hard to achieve. Possibly so you would not be distracted from more important things or perhaps to find someone who loves you for what is on the inside. These are just some things to ponder.
Best Wishes,
Jill |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 01 2007 : 11:07:11 PM
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| Jillatay, that was a beautifully concise and complete reply. I hope you'll post more. |
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sadhak
India
604 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 12:52:23 AM
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This thread seems to bring everything to the crux:
To manifest or not, to let go or not, even to meditate or not.
Who decides? Do we have a choice? Is each one of us merely playing out a script? Why does Jim & his K, Ajna, Anthem, Maximus all feel the way they do... as Yogani says, and so does David, each is standing at a different place. The truth, and therefore, the action, will be coloured by the view available.
I heard from a yogi, that we have no choice in anything we do except to be attached or not (which is the factor that creates karma). I wonder how much choice there is in the latter too.
If I am driven by a desire, I will eventually manifest it, sooner or later, either by physical means or, if I have somehow traveled a little far on the 'spiritual' path, with some 'energetic help'. If I supress a natural desire, it will spring up manyfold, and make me that much miserable.
If like Ajna, I'm using a subconscious ability naturally, to wake up early so I can finish my practices, all the better. If I'm going to get egoistic about it and ultimately end in a yogic pitfall, that was my script; and somebody's going to learn from it, because that was their script.
Just now a member (over 70 years old) of the AYP group here came and said he'd dropped all his medicines (for BP), his asanas, and the meditation, since the latter was making him feel giddy (after 6 months of practice the AYP way). He has been unable to grasp the need for self-responsibility, self-pacing, and consistantly overdoes, despite repeated warnings... here the component of study and self-study was missing totally. His script?
Perhaps, when we use things out of yoga in isolation, we ultimately are disappointed and end either leaving it or in a pitfall. This is the safety valve, probably, all built in. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 10:34:46 AM
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| Just because we have no free will does not justify our abandoning moral choices. |
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jillatay
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 10:48:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Just because we have no free will does not justify our abandoning moral choices.
Is this a koan?
BTW Jim, I like your posts too and would like to dialog with you. I am reading a book called "Authentic Happiness" and it points out eloquently that people who try to maximize happiness end up unhappy while those with a "good enough" attitude toward things are happier. So my meditation outside formal meditation yesterday was "good enough" and has a pleasant surprise in that it worked.
Jill
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 10:54:21 AM
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| The beauty that I find is in accepting two facts. There is nothing that can be changed in the motion of karmic play that has been spun from the beginning. Also, there is nothing that can be changed in the fact that I am the eternal presence of Self upon which this lila is played. Accepting both of these is the beginning of Grace as I know how things lay before me. That is the path that I walk. |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 11:43:47 AM
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Oh yes, and I keep meditating |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 3:33:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jillatay
people who try to maximize happiness end up unhappy while those with a "good enough" attitude toward things are happier.
Or stop judging things either way, and just let things happen. That's the happiest of all, though you might not notice how happy you are until someone points it out cuz you're inherently not judging.
http://www.allspirit.co.uk/hsinhsinming.html |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 5:17:30 PM
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I'm not sure why I feel like trying to say something in this thread. It seems that something important is trying to come through here for each of us. I agree with the different view-points expressed and of course find guidance especially from yogani's advice.
There is nothing that we can change, consciously or sub-consciously, because "we" are part of the illusion of something needing change. As long as we hail from that perception then we are a perceived not whole trying to fix a perceived not whole. What will come from such outward actions? More of the same. Everything is perfect just as it is, otherwise it wouldn't be. If we allow things to be and accept ourselves and everyone/everything else to be as is, then we can get to the letting go into inner silence. It is the inner silence that is the underlying whole. If that is sought, found and allowed to come forth then we are taking part in our true destiny. |
Edited by - Balance on Mar 02 2007 5:26:21 PM |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 02 2007 : 11:13:52 PM
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It's funny. Even though I get a little excited about sharing what may be true to my current experience or understanding, it really doesn't matter what I write. There's no way I could really put down in words what my experience is as it is so fluid and changing. I can never really pin down a position for myself. Even more so expecting that it may have something to do with what others may experience. I often don't post because of this. It really is a funny thing.  It's just words that may echo some truth for me, but it doesn't really matter. What does seem to matter a little is feeling like I get in the middle of a conversation where I don't quite fit in and I'm from Mars or some other galaxy. So excuse me if I sometimes come from left field, but I guess it doesn't really matter. Nonetheless, I still like sharing with you all, you're a good bunch of people. Yes, I am a little crazy, but that's okay, I can live with myself well enough these days, much better than before I started this yoga business.
Alan |
Edited by - Balance on Mar 03 2007 05:47:35 AM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2007 : 06:09:04 AM
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Balance(Alan) wrote: quote:
There is nothing that we can change, consciously or sub-consciously, because "we" are part of the illusion of something needing change. As long as we hail from that perception then we are a perceived not whole trying to fix a perceived not whole. What will come from such outward actions? More of the same. Everything is perfect just as it is, otherwise it wouldn't be. If we allow things to be and accept ourselves and everyone/everything else to be as is, then we can get to the letting go into inner silence. It is the inner silence that is the underlying whole. If that is sought, found and allowed to come forth then we are taking part in our true destiny.
I like this Alan, it reminds me of the analogy of the rose and the universe.
If you equate the growth of the universe to the growth of a rose and in that rose each of us is a tiny minute spec. The bud grows, it reaches for the light, it follows a predetermined signiture which is scripted by its DNA,as it unwinds out of its bud form, there must be friction between its forming petals, the pain of growth, our pain.
To recognise this, stop fighting it, let it be, rest in silence and simply let the rose unfold as it will anyway regardless of what we do or say. To me this is inner silence.
Dealing with the pains of growth is the purification process, the moving conductivity, the self enquiry.
The rose - the universe - will grow by itself regardless of how we rage against the pain/illusion/suffering. Just let it be.
quote:
Yes, I am a little crazy, but that's okay
Join the club
Louis |
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Doc
USA
394 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2007 : 09:01:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani:
"....we have to learn to let go into inner silence before we can let go."
"Obviously, for this, the cultivation of inner silence as a priori is necessary, via deep meditation, and also learning to let go into That, which is samyama. When the released/surrendered impulses of our mind surge out from inner silence, it is something else besides personal projection. It is stillness in action, or outpouring divine love."
The guru is in you.
So, since letting go outwardly requires letting go inwardly, via the cultivation of inner silence through samyama and deep meditation, it appears that really "the only way out is in"!
Hari OM!
Doc |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 03 2007 : 9:34:38 PM
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Whew!
Thanks for the nice rose picture Louis. And thanks Doc for reminding me to let go into inner-silence first. I think I've been over-doing it lately with the self-enquiry. From the time I wake up to the time I go to sleep I've been constantly enquiring "Who am I?" and such questions, and seeking the source of "I". It was fantastic and brought much silence and expansion for awhile, but I believe it has gotten to be a bit much. I think I may have flipped a breaker  (Don't know what the eight-ball is supposed to mean, it just looks like the right thing to use). Those of you who have known me for awhile may remember I have a habit of pushing the dosage on things I need to pace back a bit with the self-enquiry. I'll have to learn how to better integrate it with the pranayama and meditation. I think I would be better off focusing a little more on my morning and evening practices and give myself a break a little on the self-enquiry
Peace
By the way, I thought I'd add here that the ways I've been learning to observe this here "phenomenon of living" by researching self-enquiry have been quite fascinating and rewarding. |
Edited by - Balance on Mar 03 2007 10:27:31 PM |
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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2007 : 08:59:05 AM
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| I agree with Sparkle's example of Rose unfolding and this is exactly the spirit in which I posted my message about men dating women. It is in the instincts/genes of a man to attract women, and overcoming competition of other men. Being a man I can tell that it is in the instincts to try that no matter what the outcome is. If someone is introverted and not attempting to get dates, I bet that in most cases it is not because they have 'above' the situation, but simply because they have some insecurities which they don't have the courage to overcome. Not dating because you have identified some far higher responsibility in life is completely different from not dating because you are afraid. Never take a chance, never get hurt philosophy. Attached to lack of outcome which is just another attachment. I strongly believe whatever enlightenment is, it is not possible without unfolding and living out the instincts, without turning every stone. According to Swami Vivekanda, desirelessness can spring only from desires. Otherwise you leave a stone unturned which sooner or later you have to deal with. He asks what greatness is there in a beggar renouncing his wealth? |
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2007 : 10:58:43 AM
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Hi Maximus
If you feel the need, urge or whatever, to put yourself out there in the mating game then by all means live it up! This playground can be fun, though getting emotionally wrapped up in it is where experiences of pain/attachment/loss and such things occur to us. Through those painful experiences of attachment we eventually learn to discriminate between spirit and matter and let go of our supposed hold on a passing illusion, for spirit lasts forever, these bodies and their pastimes don't. I was always (and still am ) full of desire for the attentions of warm womanly flesh. All these senses reel with the memories of such meetings, and still hunger for more. I was always shy and introverted and remember many sexual opportunities I flubbed over the past 30 years. All in all the mating game proved successful for my genetic player as I have fathered three amazing young men from couplings with three different women. And yes, I had many, many sexual encounters besides just those three times. Anymore the mating drive is an annoyance as I feel it gets in the way of proper discrimination and real relationship. I would like to more relate to God in everyone without the distubing distraction of bodily desire. I'm learning to be patient and not condemn these heavy pulls to the passing material show, they are strong and have their purpose. In the end I come to realize the sexual drive perpetuates couplings with other bodies and creates more bodies. All of these bodies must crumble to dust. To what do I want to relate? I cannot claim ownership to any of the women I coupled with after having beat out the competition (ha ha). Not one of my boys will be "mine" forever in the sense that every form must perish. Where am I to find true and lasting relationship? In the One Life from which all of these wonderful forms and unique expressions have arisen.
But by all means lets play and have fun! Life in these bodies is short.
Alan |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2007 : 12:46:10 PM
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Wise words Maximus and Alan, thank you for them .
A
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Power of the sub-conscious mind
