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 Other Systems and Alternate Approaches
 Ecstatic conductivity disappearing
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InnerFire

Switzerland
6 Posts

Posted - Dec 05 2018 :  10:58:12 AM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Message
Hello dear community,

Ever since ecstatic conductivity started to occur at my perineum 8 months ago, I made the interesting observation that it would slowly start to vanish after 4-6 days every time I ejaculated. So I would ejaculate and the EC would start to build up for about 4-6 days and then slowly start to go away. After a week of not ejaculating it would disappear completely.

I tried to "push" through with semen retention and just practice as I always did but even after I went for 7 weeks of no ejaculation the EC simply wouldn't come back. I also noticed a general lack of vitality whenever the EC goes away. And after an ejaculation I always feel awake and refreshed, which goes quite against the general yogic consensus of semen retention to increase energy and vitality.

At this point I'm happy for any advice. Has anybody experienced the same issue? I also tried to apply self pacing to various degrees but it didn't make any difference.

Christi

United Kingdom
3479 Posts

Posted - Dec 05 2018 :  12:26:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi InnerFire,

Welcome to the forums.

Strict celibacy is a lifestyle choice that people can adopt if they wish. In AYP forced celibacy is not recommended. Instead it is recommended to have a balanced sexual life, without going to any extreme, whatever that may mean for each practitioner. So, if ejaculating once a week works for you, then that is fine. Yogani recommends not more often than that for most people, as it can lead to depletion in vitality and can slow down spiritual progress.

Chrsiti
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AYPforum

351 Posts

Posted - Dec 05 2018 :  4:27:10 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
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InnerFire

Switzerland
6 Posts

Posted - Dec 05 2018 :  4:46:13 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for your answer, Christi.

I was never interested in celibacy to begin with, but I understand that semen retention clearly has some merit according to anecdotal and scriptural evidence. So, for me it seems that one week seems to be the sweet spot. However, I seem to be stuck in this cycle as I haven't been able to progress for several months. I would expect that the EC would slowly start to increase in intensity and rise up the spine after a while. But I appear to be stuck. So, my actual question would be how to progress from here.
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Dogboy

USA
1501 Posts

Posted - Dec 05 2018 :  5:00:33 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Can you give us an outline of your current practice set? Perhaps you are ready for additional practices.
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InnerFire

Switzerland
6 Posts

Posted - Dec 05 2018 :  5:48:17 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Can you give us an outline of your current practice set? Perhaps you are ready for additional practices.


I've been practicing tummo which is a variation of maha bandha, for around a year. Before that I practiced AYP and other systems for a few years without any results. AYP would even make me irritable and mildly depressed, even though I tried every level of self pacing. When I started tummo my well-being quickly increased and I started to feel some pleasure in the perineum sometimes, which is why I decided to stick with it. I practice about 30 minutes every morning.

Tummo is about as strong a yogic technique can get, or at least I don't know of any other techniques that are more powerful. Interestingly enough, I've never experienced "overload symptoms" with this technique, whereas with very gentle techniques (AYP and others) I experienced lack of energy, constant tiredness, irritability, etc. which some would consider overload symptoms here. However, I've never experienced the energetic fireworks some people describe here.

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Vimala

France
79 Posts

Posted - Dec 06 2018 :  02:54:41 AM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi InnerFire,

Although breath retention techniques generally appear to be more powerful and effective in producing tangible results, the gifts are not entirely for free as this type of practicing can exert his toil on the physical body very significantly over time as your mind gets better.
Celibacy optimizes (and sexual energy constitutes a significant part of) your inner energies and, in time of needs it's better to remain celibate.

It is for this reason that celibacy is recommended in all of the ancient breath retention traditions that I'm aware of: in the practice of tummo - when monastic vows are not explicitly required- it's generally made clear that when you engage in tummo, you take a break from your normal sexual life. When it's not and it's a deliberate omission of the lama, think that 99% of the time he's celibate himself. To point at a popular example, think of the mopai 3 days rule.

The fact that sex seems to improve the efficacy of the practice at this stage, it's just because sex can currently stir more energy than your breath retention techniques. It gives the impression of supporting your tummo, but your tummo rarely has your fullest potential at his disposal, so it's harder to develop.
Think of your body on tummo as a diesel engine: when you have sex, you consume a significant portion of the tummo fuel, but you leave the engine very hot and performing... It's all a waste because tummo consumes energy and doesn't really give anything more than sex at this point: a little surge of EC at the root is not that special and you can get it with your normal sex if you commit your mind to it.
Also, I bet that some sediments started to appear in your urine and IME that could constitute an additional energy expenditure.


Edited by - Vimala on Dec 06 2018 03:24:32 AM
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AYPforum

351 Posts

Posted - Dec 06 2018 :  03:10:21 AM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
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Christi

United Kingdom
3479 Posts

Posted - Dec 06 2018 :  05:52:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by InnerFire

quote:
Can you give us an outline of your current practice set? Perhaps you are ready for additional practices.


I've been practicing tummo which is a variation of maha bandha, for around a year. Before that I practiced AYP and other systems for a few years without any results. AYP would even make me irritable and mildly depressed, even though I tried every level of self pacing. When I started tummo my well-being quickly increased and I started to feel some pleasure in the perineum sometimes, which is why I decided to stick with it. I practice about 30 minutes every morning.

Tummo is about as strong a yogic technique can get, or at least I don't know of any other techniques that are more powerful. Interestingly enough, I've never experienced "overload symptoms" with this technique, whereas with very gentle techniques (AYP and others) I experienced lack of energy, constant tiredness, irritability, etc. which some would consider overload symptoms here. However, I've never experienced the energetic fireworks some people describe here.





Hi InnerFire,

Irritability, tiredness etc. are symptoms of purification happening. So, they are signs that the techniques are working and are being effective.

They are also symptoms of energetic overload and indicate that more purification is taking place, than your neurobiology can handle in that moment. They are certainly not indications that you should stop a spiritual practice or switch to another one.

In this case it would be useful to look at how you were self-pacing your AYP practise at that time.

Christi
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InnerFire

Switzerland
6 Posts

Posted - Dec 06 2018 :  06:27:05 AM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Vimala, and thanks for your answer.

quote:
Although breath retention techniques generally appear to be more powerful and effective in producing tangible results, the gifts are not entirely for free as this type of practicing can exert his toil on the physical body very significantly over time as your mind gets better.
Celibacy optimizes (and sexual energy constitutes a significant part of) your inner energies and, in time of needs it's better to remain celibate.



The thing is, all successful tummo practitioners whom I've heard of, are experiencing unbelievable physical and mental benefits. There is wonderful bliss and clarity in the mind and the body feels deeply relaxed and ecstatic. If you read my first post you can see that I tried to push through the suffering with an abstinence streak, but got discouraged since nothing changed after 7 weeks. Maybe that period of time wasn't long enough? I know that Tibetan lamas go for months or even years when starting out with tummo.

quote:
The fact that sex seems to improve the efficacy of the practice at this stage, it's just because sex can currently stir more energy than your breath retention techniques. It gives the impression of supporting your tummo, but your tummo rarely has your fullest potential at his disposal, so it's harder to develop.
Think of your body on tummo as a diesel engine: when you have sex, you consume a significant portion of the tummo fuel, but you leave the engine very hot and performing... It's all a waste because tummo consumes energy and doesn't really give anything more than sex at this point: a little surge of EC at the root is not that special and you can get it with your normal sex if you commit your mind to it.
Also, I bet that some sediments started to appear in your urine and IME that could constitute an additional energy expenditure.


So, your suggestion would be to simply stick it out with semen retention? Another likely reason why my progress has been so slow could be that my concentration skills are very poor. Tibetans usually first engage in meditation for many years until concentration is sufficient to start with tummo. Perhaps I was a bit of a fool to start with tummo without having refined my meditation skills. What do you think?

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InnerFire

Switzerland
6 Posts

Posted - Dec 06 2018 :  08:11:11 AM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Irritability, tiredness etc. are symptoms of purification happening. So, they are signs that the techniques are working and are being effective.

They are also symptoms of energetic overload and indicate that more purification is taking place, than your neurobiology can handle in that moment. They are certainly not indications that you should stop a spiritual practice or switch to another one.

In this case it would be useful to look at how you were self-pacing your AYP practice at that time? What AYP practices were you doing and what did you do to self-pace?


That's what I thought at first. So, I went as far back as only doing DM for 10 minutes twice a day. Turns out mantra meditation is like acid to my mind, it makes me dull and stupid, like a zombie. So I switched to 20 minutes breathing meditation (anapanasati) twice a day. Things got better, but I could not move beyond that dullness that was hovering over my head like a dark cloud. Adding 5 minutes of SBP made it only worse. So, after a little more than two years, I decided to stop since there was clearly no "purification" happening. I did no practice at all for a few weeks and after only a few days I returned to baseline well-being. It was just as I remembered it, meaning no improvement compared to before yoga, which seemed to confirm my assumption about the false correlation between purification and bad mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that many practitioners experience some dark times in their paths, but they don't usually last for years. In a few months tummo did more purification than AYP in several years with much fewer side effects, so I think AYP might just not be for me.

Recently I've read some Taoist books about inner alchemy and they emphasize not bringing the energy up beyond the navel until it is ready. This really made sense to me since SBP brings up lots of energy to the higher body, hence the many reports such as "feeling as if the head is full of air", headaches, pressure, etc. With tummo on the other hand, the energy is kept below the navel with bandhas and concentration until it "automatically" enters the central channel. I think this might be why I had better results with tummo. My nervous system is just not able to handle energy going higher up in the body.

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Vimala

France
79 Posts

Posted - Dec 06 2018 :  09:59:27 AM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi InnerFire,

quote:
Originally posted by InnerFire


If you read my first post you can see that I tried to push through the suffering with an abstinence streak, but got discouraged since nothing changed after 7 weeks. Maybe that period of time wasn't long enough? I know that Tibetan lamas go for months or even years when starting out with tummo.



Well, 7 months is quite a long time. Are you sure that your breathing method is correct? Do you practice every day? How long? Where do you practice?
Also, consider that tummo properly done begins with an increase of body temperature and bliss is a later stage.

quote:
Originally posted by InnerFire


So, your suggestion would be to simply stick it out with semen retention? Another likely reason why my progress has been so slow could be that my concentration skills are very poor. Tibetans usually first engage in meditation for many years until concentration is sufficient to start with tummo. Perhaps I was a bit of a fool to start with tummo without having refined my meditation skills. What do you think?



The truth is that monks engage in tummo because their concentration is weak. Tummo is supposed to help you achieve concentration faster than with any other non-forceful method. Of course, they generally have some visualization skills and the sadhanas are quite impressives... but it's not easy and this is true for everyone.

The thing is that tummo is supposed to be practiced while you're celibate.

Why don't try the Wim Hof method? It's good to develop concentration and it's way easier than the intricate tummo. Also, there are no celibacy rules.
There are no contraindications, you can switch back to tummo at a later time.


Edited by - Vimala on Dec 06 2018 11:26:15 AM
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InnerFire

Switzerland
6 Posts

Posted - Dec 06 2018 :  12:02:44 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Well, 7 months is quite a long time. Are you sure that your breathing method is correct? Do you practice every day? How long? Where do you practice?
Also, consider that tummo properly done begins with an increase of body temperature and bliss is a later stage.


It was 7 weeks, not months, but maybe I should go for 7 months lol. I'm pretty sure I do the technique correctly as it is fairly simple. I practice every day for 30-40 minutes at home. There's been no shortage in bodily heat, although it quickly fades after practice.

quote:
Why don't try the Wim Hof method? It's good to develop concentration and it's way easier than the intricate tummo. Also, there are no celibacy rules.
There are no contraindications, you can switch back to tummo at a later time.


I've tried the whole 10 week course but nothing happened. No increased vitality or resistance to cold, even though I did the whole cold shower thing.
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