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 Buddism. Formless attainments. Dzogchen. Zen.
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 03 2018 :  08:57:15 AM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Message
Last week i had a wierd experience at the therevaden monastery. I had a wierd day walking around the monastery feeling emotions that a soldier may experiance. I decided at nighttime meditation i would escape instead of my normal light insight meditation i zoned into the formless attainments. I was resting in the 2nd formless attainment my old object of mindfulness and entered into samadi. I had never gone further so i decided i would try and i went into the third formless attainment nothingness. I stayed there for 5 minutes and let go again entering the 4th formless attainment “niether perception nor non perception.” At this point my head is down looking like im sleeping and im dripping drool onto my hands yet i could care less. Everyone leaves meditation and i stayed and did not want to lose this state. I started to move, opened eyes, went back to dorm, woke up and i was now using 4th formless attainment for mindfulness and it was almost effortless.

The next few days i went from sleeping 9 hours to 4-6 hours and no desire to eat, have sex, or sleep. I also left monastery. I lost my sense of being human. The buddha says these states make you born into the god (deva) realm but this is not the end of birth and death the goal in buddism. I did feel like a god able to move this body around however i felt fit although i didnt feel much at all no pleasure to not pleasure pure uppeka (equanimity). I felt like i died, could accomplish anything, and yet felt as if i had no reason to accomplish anything. I started to investigate rigpa in dzogchen and kensho/ satori in zen. Eventually i dropped my object of mindfulness the 4th formless attainment And i think i may have entered rigpa/zen silent illumination. I felt myself again, felt like i had a slight urge to eat, felt alive again and like myself. At this point it was completely effortless mindfulness. Last night i slept more too. My ego is back but i am aware of it and do not need to act on it.

Whats next? Was that rigpa or begining of my ability to enter “enlightenment” when i went into effortless mindfulness?

Should i stay in 4th formless attainment that is near effortless or in effortless state of my true being. Or both?

90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 03 2018 :  3:09:18 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
https://www.google.com/amp/s/altaic...worship/amp/

Please look at the reading before and after “embracing transendence” to understand what the 4th formless attainment may mean in hindu religion.
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lalow33

USA
929 Posts

Posted - Nov 03 2018 :  10:35:56 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Got no idea. If you are practicing Buddhism, I would ask the people that practice it.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3517 Posts

Posted - Nov 03 2018 :  10:49:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Benjamin,

If you have a choice between "near effortless" and "effortless" abiding, then choose effortless. However, you may not always have the choice, in which case you will have to make some effort.

It sounds like good things are happening.

You may find this lesson useful:

Lesson 327 - The Evolutionary Stages of Mind

and also this lesson addition from the AYP Plus forum:

Addition 327.1 - The Rose of Enlightenment is Still a Rose by Any Other Name


Terma such as rigpa, dzogchen, kensho, satori, formless attainment and silent illumination, can be useful as milestones on the path, but they can also become attachments to hold onto when they are perceived at the level of the mind. Even these things have to be transcended.

Christi
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Nov 08 2018 :  2:57:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by 90benjammin

Last week i had a wierd experience at the therevaden monastery. I had a wierd day walking around the monastery feeling emotions that a soldier may experiance. I decided at nighttime meditation i would escape instead of my normal light insight meditation i zoned into the formless attainments. I was resting in the 2nd formless attainment my old object of mindfulness and entered into samadi. I had never gone further so i decided i would try and i went into the third formless attainment nothingness. I stayed there for 5 minutes and let go again entering the 4th formless attainment “niether perception nor non perception.” At this point my head is down looking like im sleeping and im dripping drool onto my hands yet i could care less. Everyone leaves meditation and i stayed and did not want to lose this state. I started to move, opened eyes, went back to dorm, woke up and i was now using 4th formless attainment for mindfulness and it was almost effortless.

The next few days i went from sleeping 9 hours to 4-6 hours and no desire to eat, have sex, or sleep. I also left monastery. I lost my sense of being human. The buddha says these states make you born into the god (deva) realm but this is not the end of birth and death the goal in buddism. I did feel like a god able to move this body around however i felt fit although i didnt feel much at all no pleasure to not pleasure pure uppeka (equanimity). I felt like i died, could accomplish anything, and yet felt as if i had no reason to accomplish anything. I started to investigate rigpa in dzogchen and kensho/ satori in zen. Eventually i dropped my object of mindfulness the 4th formless attainment And i think i may have entered rigpa/zen silent illumination. I felt myself again, felt like i had a slight urge to eat, felt alive again and like myself. At this point it was completely effortless mindfulness. Last night i slept more too. My ego is back but i am aware of it and do not need to act on it.

Whats next? Was that rigpa or begining of my ability to enter “enlightenment” when i went into effortless mindfulness?

Should i stay in 4th formless attainment that is near effortless or in effortless state of my true being. Or both?



It sounds more like you had a nice opening, hit on some dispassion and have probably come back down to earth now.

What you experienced is pretty common and can throw some for a loop. When you feel that dispassion the best thing to do is to think of others, to be of service.

What you are describing is not Rigpa but don't let that slow you down any. The asleep and yet not asleep is a sign of issues being released. Of going deeper than what you can consciously maintain. So it is like you check out for a bit. A very good sign.

The one thing I would suggest, is to not try to control anything. Just do your meditation and let it be and go where it will go.
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 09 2018 :  12:28:08 AM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the comments. I guess this article describes what I discovered best I think. https://www.lionsroar.com/forum-for...-meditation/

Since last post I have done formal sitting for only 1 hour. That being said I do not feel formal sitting is needed anymore because I am keeping steady mindfulness and it is as close as I can imagine to being effortless yet at the same time I can still get out of the consciousness so there must be some effort there.

I detoxed from 16 mg of suboxone in 7 days and had no cravings, quit eating meat, have my favorite flavor of ice cream in freezer that never would last more than a day or 2 prior and I haven't even thought about opening it. I also am way more productive than ever and don't need as much sleep. I feel like I lost a big part of my ego and yet Im still here just living on new terms. Life is good. Spread the love!

Benjammin
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Christi

United Kingdom
3517 Posts

Posted - Nov 09 2018 :  04:04:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Benjamin

As Jonesboy says, it sounds as if you are making good progress on the path.

It is important to keep up your daily sitting practice, regardless of how you feel during the day. Even if you feel that you are cultivating a strong degree of mindfulness (sati), this in itself is not sufficient for liberation. Being mindful can be useful, bet we also need to know what to be mindful of and what not to be mindful of. When a tiger is stalking its prey, it is very mindful of the object it is stalking, but that mindfulness will not lead to freedom. Only to a meal, or disppointment.

So we also need to develop other qualities such as discrimination (viveka), insight (vipassana) and wisdom (pannya). All of these things are cultivated through sitting practices and especially meditation.

It sounds as if you are dealing with addictive tendencies as well and I am glad that you are having some success so far. Getting more physically active can help with this, as it helps to become more balanced. Asana practice can help with this, as can things like physical exercise (workouts) and activities such as walking in nature.

Christi
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Nov 09 2018 :  08:40:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
I would agree with Cristi.

Mindfulness is just the first step into realizing silence in daily life, not the end.

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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 15 2018 :  9:17:27 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the input. So if you need meditation to reach liberation i ask what do you need after you reach liberation. Do you need meditation still? It was my understanding monks still meditate due to it having a positive impact on their communities yet do not gain benifits like before. I use to use vipassanna. It would label my thoughts and feelings to try and realize they were just that and not me. With my new practice i no longer have those thoughts that need labeling because it is a transendant state of mind with no ego. I would not say I am “enlightened” by any means. To me enlightenment is a beleif and liberation comes from experiencing a form of consciousness not identifing with a label. Not to mention the many forms of enlightenment. The Arahat in a state of non-becoming where there is nothing left to do. The buddha who would not rest for another moment until the suffering of every being was gone (of course af death he would enter the non-becoming state of an arahat he claimed.). Or Jesus who lost his ego/identity and became one with the holy spirit taking on the beleifs of some higher power and losing his own. I personally think an arahat or buddha is one step beyond jesus yet all 3 of these forms of consciousness could be arguably enlightenment depending on your beleif system. I beleive they are all liberation to the degree that the last day of your life suffering excruciating pain you will not need opiates yet they are still different. I use (as close as possible) the state of non-becoming while driving. It is very relaxing and i am not distracted by trying to multi task. At most other times i take on the consiousness of a liberated warrior who will fight tp the death but experienceing no stress. Previous to my formless meditation i was trying to run a business and was such an unfunctioning person that i was lucky if i could get 1-2 hours of productive work in. Not to mention having limited will power and being controlled by many addictions (i beleive we are all addicts of various severity until we are liberated.) Now my life is different. Last monday i blew leaves from 830AM to 600PM for grandparents. I took a 10 minute break every hour to lessen the load of the backpack blower on my body yet was still productice during my breaks. I proceeded to go home and at 10PM started a court document that was due the next before court opened at 8AM. I worked all night and submitted it at 630am yet did not feel tired. I took a 3 hour nap and went on about my next day and there was no stress even though i am a Pro Se litigant in both criminal and civil right now and facing the state trying to impose 12 month suspensed sentance (granted there motion is not factual and there is less than 5% chance of going to jail yet they are asking for 1 year in a 10 page document to impose my suspended sentance from a plea deal from 3 years prior.)

I do not beleive that experiance was enlightenment in terms of reaching the end of the rpunds of rebirth completely as the buddha talked about. It was a form of consciousness that the buddha called Deva Rhealm of living (gods and buddhas). Escaping the rounds of rebirth completely is a form of non-becoming such as an arahat OR becoming one with our innate true nature as the buddha talked about having a bowl of food placed in front of him and allowing his arm to scoop the rice into hia mouth without thinking about it without fighting his true anamilistic nature. I beleive Rastafarians such as Bob Marley have gotten pretty close to this state of our natural true nature. Yet if we want to have a big impact on the world it may help to be more of a warrior than a stoner who rarely washes his hair unless it gets uncomfortable. This is why the buddha reentered the rounds of rebirth and became a buddha even though he taught about arahatship. It wasent for hundreds of years later that the Mahayana school began teaching buddhahood. The good thing is we need not choose as consiouss states are impermanent regardless of wether they are effortless or not. We can shift from a buddha mentality while writing a paper or blowing leaves to escape from the sloth and torpor or pain. Yet driving we may instead prefer the formless consiousness of non-becoming yet still uneffected by sloth and torpor. Finnally during an intimate night with our loved one why not surrender to our true nature. Feel the emotions with no restrictions unlike a god who feels much less or even arguably no pleasure OR pain but is always neutral.

Just the 2 cents of a layman who is still finding his place in this crazy world...

Peace, love, happiness + a lsd use + opiate addiction + 6 months of solitary confinment = One path to one place

All our paths are different and yet let us hope we all one day reach similair experiances and let go of stress and suffering

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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 15 2018 :  9:27:41 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Mindfullness is the first step but when the mindfulness is clear and radiant and could be described as stillness flowing do we still need to meditate then? I feel like sitting still to think may be healthy to plan the day yet a daily planner or calender work well too.

I would like to hear arguments for wether or not meditation is useful for a liberated being and also how liberated beings can have the biggest positive effect on the world. When you save yourself what else is there left to do but try to save others. Any liberated people on this site?
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 15 2018 :  9:36:59 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Also what role do drugs play on liberated beings. They are not needed and being stuch in addiction due to lack of will power is no longer possible. Do these substances now become tools to make this mind more effective or no? I personally beleive a liberated mind is still effected by drugs in some way and if we were all liberated all drugs would be legal due to no addicts. Would liberated beings or gods/devas rejoice in the pleasure/effectiveness of drugs? I no longer use daily nor crave yet CBD does help my mind stay more calm in temporary states of buddhahood.

PS thanks for hearing me talk about all this stuff. Calling yourself liberated to a non liverated being in this world i beleive is not a good thing for the situation due to a lack of understanding and potentially if people do beleive you holding you to a higher atandard when indeed your still only human. Just a human with no ego. In fact many mental illnesses have similair loss of ego and you could look insane LOL
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jonesboy

USA
578 Posts

Posted - Nov 16 2018 :  08:13:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit jonesboy's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
Meditation is differing states of mind. If you are still meditating or some teacher is still meditating then no they are not liberated.

The Primordial State has 3 aspects. Void, Clarity and Energy.

You can think of void like space, pure of all impediments.

Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment. For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second. Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking, "That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, it's short, too tall and so on."

With regard to Energy. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or another of energy.

So the goal isn't silence, the goal isn't energy alone.

All things are energy who's true nature is emptiness. As a thinking being the goal as one clears out the obstructions is to realize deeper and deeper levels of clarity.

As far as the Witness, think of the true Witness as more like this body is like a costume you wear. There is no Tom, that is just a deeper thought. You are one with the wind as it dances, you can feel the clouds, the shape as part of your being. To think of another's heart is to feel that heart within you.

If you can not directly share your being with another, if another can not just think of you and experience silence, energy, bliss, love, joy or any combination there of then yes keep practicing.
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 21 2018 :  6:46:52 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Couldent of said it better myself.. Thanks Jonesboy. I still know the flower smells good and if i smell it it smells better than ever before my insights. However i get it. On a deeper level there is an energy to tap into that dosent care if we are being mauled by 10 alligators. For me its a balance of smelling the flower and diving into another dimension of a fearless warrior with endless energy. Bahh i think i need some rest i did way too much today...

Until next time. Peace for all #9996;#65039;
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 21 2018 :  6:50:17 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
I like the “primordial state” as a way of explaining our true nature (different than the warrior (formless) mindstate.) when i think of a primordial state i think of indiginous people. Like try your warrior as if you are in indian native america screaming before or after battle...
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 21 2018 :  6:50:54 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Are an indian****
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 21 2018 :  8:33:38 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Dont you think that experiancing the cloud as yourself is equal mind due to diversity. What about equal mind due to unity with the formless. Or equal mind due to non becoming. Equal mind in terms of diversity is not really as equal i dont think. Sure its put true nature in one sense but also it still recognizes feelings as our own and even others feelings as our own. In my opinion the primordial state is one we have all experianced and know about on some level (even if it is subconsciously). The equal mind due to unity with formless or equal due to non becoming is closer to what not self enlightenment is in buddhism vs Self in yoga.
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 21 2018 :  8:35:57 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Anyone go into equal mind due to unity with the formless? This is becoming one with the Formless HeadGod that takes the form of all the form gods. Right?
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 22 2018 :  12:09:46 AM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Also i think actually buddist not sepf and Self is the same. But i still like to travel to being reborn as a deva/god in particular the formless god.
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Blanche

USA
526 Posts

Posted - Nov 25 2018 :  11:59:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by 90benjammin

Also i think actually buddist not self and Self is the same. But i still like to travel to being reborn as a deva/god in particular the formless god.



It is said that following the moral teachings is the way to be reborn as a god. Of course, after a long-long stay in the gods' kingdom, a period that might feel like a short time as it is full of pleasure, one will be back to this world and its suffering.

Meditation and inquiry is the way to stop being reborn.

Best wishes on your chosen paths.
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90benjammin

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Nov 29 2018 :  12:12:10 PM  Show Profile  Get a Link to this Reply
Inquiring into the selfless nature of into the selfish nature? Lol
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Blanche

USA
526 Posts

Posted - Nov 30 2018 :  06:24:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit Blanche's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi 90benjammin,

If you want to practice self-inquiry, it is useful to read these lessons:

Lesson 324 - Self-Inquiry - From Inspiration to Realization

Lesson 325 - Relational and Non-Relational Self-Inquiry

Lesson 326 - Styles of Self-Inquiry and Bridging the Gap

Best wishes on your chosen path
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Christi

United Kingdom
3517 Posts

Posted - Nov 30 2018 :  10:56:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Benjamin,

Yogani has also written a book on Self-inquiry practice. It is called "Self-inquiry: Dawn of the witness and the end of suffering". It is available here:

http://www.aypsite.org/books.html#si

It is also available to read and listen to on the AYP Plus site here.

Christi
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