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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 12:04:14 PM
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There are two matters I've never seen anyone adequately address, and, after many years of curious pondering, I have some light to shed on them.
We're all at different points of unfolding, so this will seem like mere philosophy for many. But if you're at the point where these issues are arising, the following will be helpful. So I'm leaving breadcrumbs for you. I've left a related posting (it's sort of a two-part series) here.
Once you've relaxed your responsiveness to the ten gazillion fears and attractions, and problems no longer feel like problems, and you don't find yourself pre-suffering (worrying) or post-suffering (regretting), and you have experienced a lifting of your burden, the strangest thing happens.
You'd expect it all to be lollipops and birdsong, but you eventually come to discover a low-level dread following you everywhere. It takes years to notice. At first, you're so relieved by the letting go of all the noise and drama. You so greatly enjoy the bliss. It feels like heaven!
Yet the noise and drama was never the central, fundamental issue. Those things were contrivances to distract your mind from the Dread. Fuming about your lost car keys or the burnt steak is a way of luring one's mind away from it. All the noise and the pains and the pleasures were an attempt to cover up a smoldering dreadful truth at the very core of your being.
If you trace its origins, you'll find that the dread goes way back. You have experienced echoes and resonances your entire life, but they are not the central thing. They are not the underlying common denominator for all those smaller tribulations which spiritual practice helped you transcend. Once the smaller tribulations are gone, and the bliss becomes normalized, the full dread slowly comes into greater focus.
I recalled dread as a child, whenever I was told some issue would "go on my permanent record." My PERMANENT RECORD! I can still recall the horror in the pit of my stomach like it was yesterday. But even that was a mere echo. Stretching back further, I recall being lost in shopping malls. At first, there would be a flash of panic, which was relatively tolerable. But a minute or two later, my new condition - as a helpless, abandoned waif - would dawn on me and leave me nauseated. This shall be my "new normal". All support I had gotten from my parents was now gone. This was my life now; vulnerable and alone. Welcome to this entirely new existence.
Awful though that was, even this was a mere echo. I continued to intuit my way back to the primordial dread. And as I came to see it more clearly and dispassionately, the outer crust of it began to fall away.
When I experienced a dropping of baggage - of burden - some years ago, I was left feeling embraced by love. But as this deeper, more fundamental dread falls away, I am left unsupported in space (or, more accurately, AS space - come to think of it, that distinction is the gist of the issue; come back and ponder this later!). This is not something I previously could have accepted with equanimity. In fact, the original dread stems from when I first recognized, like a lost child at a shopping mall, the precariousness of my position.
As space, there was no "I", and thus no self-recognition. But when the "I am" thought first kindled, the very next thought was a recognition that I had no foothold whatsoever. It was very Road Runner-ish, and I've been plunging ever since, scrambling for successive footholds which constantly gave way. And the contented love of satchidananda was just another foothold.
This life we seem to be living is a series of temporary footholds for this "I am project" which stirred in empty space and immediately freaked out at a predicament that had previously gone unquestioned. I am....vulnerable and alone!
The toddler, in a flash, recognized the significance of his previously unquestioned systems of support. But here's the pearl: just because nothing keeps you from falling doesn't mean you'll actually fall. You can will yourself into a "falling experience"....or you can blithely float.
When, exactly, was Road Runner wrong? Was he wrong when he ran off the cliff and into the chasm, batting his eyes in naive disorientation as he safely hovered? Or was he wrong when that sickly wave of recognition came over him, inevitably resulting in a death plunge to the canyon floor? He was fine before the recognition, no? Why do we find him sickeningly naive before his moment of self-consciousness?
Please, no hugs, smilies, etc.. This isn't a chatty bid for strokes, it's a lifeline for those ripe for it. Let's not chitchat or philosophize; there's nothing to "understand" here, it's utterly pragmatic advice, and for those in a position to truly require it, there won't be much to discuss. Grab and go! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jul 28 2016 1:46:10 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 1:49:36 PM
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Hello Jim
Nice to hear from you.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
He was fine before the recognition, no?
No, he was not!!  
quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Why do we find him sickeningly naive before his moment of self-consciousness?
And that is another rhetorical question. Why, oh, why are we all sickeningly naive before (self-)consciousness?
I'm just playing along... Of course, when you are past duality, you are past the love and past the dread. In that place, not even the Road Runner is wrong, because there is no wrong, no PERMANENT RECORD (thank God!)  and indeed absolutely nothing to discuss.
But it was fun, so why not?   |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 2:07:07 PM
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| Jim, I could post to this, but you give so many instructions. I'm a woman, and I'll certainly send emojis. I so want to send an emoji right now. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 2:17:19 PM
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| Not "instructions", just requests! |
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sunyata
USA
1507 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 2:19:45 PM
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 2:25:04 PM
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Go on Lalow, say something. He's not going to deny our right to emojis.
I say Jim, how could you write so many paragraphs without a single emoticon? Where is the colour in this world?! |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 3:14:56 PM
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Hi Jim,
Your post resonates with me. I can't promise you I've been through this or that stage. I haven't a clue where I'm at. What I've said lately is that I have no place to plant my flag. It sounds like the no foothold thing to me. I notice a core emotion that I just call ick.
I can't inquire into the past too much because what I look at happens within the next couple hrs, not the exact same thing, but very similar. It's a bit too much for me. |
Edited by - lalow33 on Jul 28 2016 3:51:25 PM |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 3:35:49 PM
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| Well, I'm sorry Jim for inflicting so may emoticons on you today. But you are so serious and at the same time invoking Road Runner... Come on, you must allow for a bit of fun here. And just for your sake, look, no emoticon in this one post. Clicking 'submit' quickly before I get tempted. |
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lalow33
USA
966 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 3:59:22 PM
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 4:15:11 PM
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Hi Jim:
Always happy to see your updates. Thanks!
Btw, wasn't it the coyote who was forever falling into the endless canyons, because he was forever chasing the roadrunner? The roadrunner just kept on running, defying all that could ever go wrong (beep! beep!).
So maybe better to be chased than do the chasing, especially with the Acme rocket-fired roller skates (AYP without self-pacing), blasting off the edge of the cliff. I think the coyote would have caught that roadrunner a long time ago if he had learned to self-pace.
I have heard of "coyote ugly," but never of "coyote dread." Are they related? The first involves an overdose of alcohol, and second an overdose of identification with... ?
No smileys, but the best to you as always. Floating, floating, floating... even as we fall endlessly into the eternal void, only to wake up and find we never went anywhere at all. Just woke up in the here and now where we have always been. Guess that's why they call it "realization." It's a miracle.
Time to go do the laundry...
The guru is in you.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 4:20:32 PM
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Well written, Jim.
The only other thing I want to say is: Akasha — Lightness of Air. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 4:31:30 PM
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| dread ,....to be reluctant to meet or exspereince another foothold maybe? |
Edited by - kumar ul islam on Jul 28 2016 4:34:15 PM |
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Lakulisha
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 5:41:20 PM
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Jim,
I found your post quite interesting.
I think I am going to find that notion useful, that just because nothing is holding me up, that does not mean that I am going to fall.
I think I'd like to share some of my own experience with you and others. As always, we all unfold in different ways and one person's path may not match another.
I was, as I thought, doing very "well" in a spiritual path for years, then I was exposed to a tremendous feeling of dread. (Looking back, I no longer think I was doing better before the dread started or worse after it started, but that was the way I thought of the spiritual path at the time. Now I just see the dread as part of my path, not a flaw in it.)
There is a lot to say about how that played out for me, and I don't want to get into that. I just want to say two things that really worked well for me to help me out of it. They are actually quite related.
One is recognition that I am not in control. As a fact. Not as a therapy for myself. I just am not in control. That is the truth. It is the truth to be faced. Adyashanti, in his book, 'Emptiness Dancing' in a chapter titled 'Control' helped me to make that realization.
For a long time I had heard notions like this but they did not work for me. I suppose I was not ready for them. The problem was, when I would hear related things, I interpreted them as a person who believed he was in control would interpret them. I interpreted them as 'let go of control'. That did not work. That is wrong. I eventually discovered it as not a technique. Just a facing of reality. Just a facing of the truth. It's not that I must 'let go of control'. It is that I must face the fact that I am not in control. Big difference.
A related realization came from Nisagardatta Maharaj, and curiously, it was something that I suspected in my teens but was sent away from it by everyone I told about it. In a sense, Nisagardatta reinforced this one for me, became a trusted source of something I did not quite trust in myself. That is that free will is an illusion. Nisagardatta Maharaj is the only one I have read who actually said it. (I haven't been an avid reader of spiritual texts so I'm not saying that other's haven't said this.)
Put another way:
God is actually doing everything.
A helpful related quote from Anthony De Mello (don't know if he originated it but he said it):
You are not the Dancer, you are being danced.
These things helped me.
Now, I'll recognize that recognizing that free will is an illusion is definitely not for any early stages on a spiritual path. You need to have your Yamas and Niyamas in serious order before you face this. It is too easy for a person who lacks morality to use this as an excuse for being bad. So this one can be seriously abused. You have to be very sincere, and ready for it, very committed to dharma.
So, I'm still working on these things.
I am looking forward to reading your post on depression when I get the chance.
BTW, to other readers, I think I understand Jim's disinclination towards receiving emoticons. Please don't feel that it is cold or rude. Not to put words in his mouth, but my own interpretation of his request is that he feels that if people feel the need to comfort him they will entirely miss the significance of his message. Jim is not here in this thread to be comforted. He is here to give a lifeline to people he feels may need it.
L
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Edited by - Lakulisha on Jul 29 2016 09:59:27 AM |
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Lakulisha
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 5:55:14 PM
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kumar said:
dread ,....to be reluctant to meet or exspereince another foothold maybe?
I can't speak for Jim, but the kind I experienced/experience was/is nothing like that. Almost the opposite if anything. One is inclined to delight in the prospect of obtaining another 'foothold'.
To give a hint of the kind of dread I am talking about, consider that you are finally getting the message that:
Your foothold days are over. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 7:39:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lakulisha
That is that free will is an illusion.
You might find this excerpt interesting, from Lesson 103:
Karma/samskaras/obstructions embedded in our nervous system are what stand between us and divine experience. Spiritual practices are for stimulating the nervous system to purify itself, removing the obstructions. Not doing that and leaving it to "destiny" prolongs the journey, leaving the house cleaning to be done later. There is free will in this. We all have the freedom to choose. We can do it now or do it later. That is the choice we have. If we do it later, we may have an easier time of it due to the efforts of others and the position of the stars. Most prefer to pitch in, rather than sitting around in the dark waiting for someone else to turn on the lights.
One thing about AYP is that we ardently encourage active surrender. Active surrender involves free will. Paradoxically, we have to exercise free will in order to operate from a place of non-doing (stillness in action). In other words, we have to put forth some effort to become effortless. It is a gradual changing of habits, and a refinement of behavior and perception, in tandem.
Here's an example of what I mean. So, I've been going to massage therapy school for several months, and I practice techniques everyday. Fortunately, some of the techniques have become automatic and much more natural compared to when I started in the beginning. This is an example of the classic learning curve, going from clunky to smooth. It's the same in anything that has to be learned, including Deep Meditation or any other AYP technique.
But just because a routine can become automatic and effortless does not mean that the learning ends. There is always room for more learning, and more teaching. And free will is involved in both learning and teaching. The finesse of active surrender may indeed merge the separation between divine doer and human doer, but it does not eliminate the human doer's active role in the process. The human's role will remain active until the very last breath.
In AYP, we caution against falling into the trap of the illusion of attainment, which is the misconception that one has arrived at some final point of enlightenment. Such an illusion might take form in the belief that there is no more progress to be made, or that the ego and mind have been defeated, or that daily, structured practices are unnecessary.
Even for those that are abiding in a deep level of inner silence, the practices continue, so that the outpouring of divine love can continue. Practices generate results, which is why we do them. We are interested in results, not just mental detachment (passive surrender).
Of course, you are free to believe that free will is an illusion, but I just wanted to fill you in on the general attitude of AYP towards the matter.
Love. Radiance. Unity. |
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Lakulisha
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 8:11:53 PM
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Bodhi, I don't doubt that free will exists in a mundane sense.
And there is a deep paradox in its non-existence, not a shallow one.
When I say free will is an illusion, I in no way mean that what we consider free will is not to be engaged. If I were a juror in a murder trial, I would interpret the question of free will exactly the same as everyone else.
Nor do I disagree with using free will on the path. Nor do I disagree with what you quoted me from Yogani. In fact, I don't disagree with anything you said. Except, perhaps, your implication that what you said contradicts what I am saying.
This is something deeper. There is some deep sense in which our selse of free will is wrong, while we are right to distinguish what we do out of our own free will, and what we do not. There is a mystery here which I cannot express.
Use free will. Use it wisely. Ultimately, at some point, recognize that it is an illusion, if you find that to be appropriate. I certainly did find it to be appropriate. I'm not saying that practices should be stopped at that point either. You should still use it wisely when you know it to be an illusion.
There are those who say not to do practices at all. I disagree with those. I have found yoga practices to be very helpful indeed. I engaged my mundane free will in order to do them. And I would encourage other people to do so.
It is possible that this notion that free will is an illusion should not be taught. It is possible that it is something which is realized at some point and is only useful to those who realize it themselves. I don't know.
I believe it is related to Buddha's realization of no-self. With no-self, if there is free will, what is free of what?
It is possible that I will be able to resolve this paradox intellectually. I don't know. At this point I certainly can't.
Peace,
L
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Edited by - Lakulisha on Jul 29 2016 09:57:32 AM |
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Lakulisha
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 8:18:44 PM
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Bodhi, I meant I don't "disagree" with anything you said, not I don't agree with anything you said.
But I can't find the edit button ... I see you guys editing your posts and poor me can't, or can't find how.... Maybe that privilege is only given when you've been at it for a while? |
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sunyata
USA
1507 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 8:30:35 PM
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Hi Lakulisha,
Welcome to the forums. The experience of no self is but a milestone on our road to evolution. Bodhi has already pointed to Yogani's lesson on free will.
With spiritual practices, we come to a point where the intellectual discussions of whether free will exists or does not is not so important.
Rather, how are we able to serve the world around us residing as pure bliss consciousness matters and brings joy to us. The Self serving the Self enjoying the empty fullness in the here now.
Sunyata |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 8:36:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lakulisha
I believe it is related to Buddha's realization of no-self. With no-self, if there is free will, what is free of what?
Incidentally, the doctrine or notion of no-self isn't really promoted here either. Instead, we change our perception and experience of self, which does not really include an elimination of self, but rather an expansion of self. Here's a quote from Lesson 317:
What is not done for selfish reasons anyway? Everything we do is for our own self, even if we are making great sacrifices for others. It is merely a matter of what we regard our self to be. When we become filled with the joy of pure bliss consciousness, we begin to find our own self in everything and everyone around us, and act accordingly. This is the direct result of daily practice of deep meditation and samyama.
And from Lesson 120:
The more I give away, the more I am filling up with ecstatic bliss. I am a very selfish person doing all this transmission of knowledge. Yet, my self is becoming more and more in everyone. Your joy is my joy. You can do the same thing in your life. Do your sitting practices, however much and whatever kind you find is good for you, and then go do something good for someone. That is rising enlightenment.
So, the goal and the realization here is to illuminate and enrich self, so that little self becomes aligned and attuned to Big Self, i.e God, the witness, pure bliss consciousness, and so on. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 8:40:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lakulisha
But I can't find the edit button ... I see you guys editing your posts and poor me can't, or can't find how.... Maybe that privilege is only given when you've been at it for a while?
It's the little icon in the header of the post with the pen and paper (about the third or fourth from the left). |
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Lakulisha
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 8:51:53 PM
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Another note or two.
If you guys won't let me edit yet ... you'll have to put up with me yammering on ...
I don't disagree with 'active surrender' or with steps being taken to surrender. Indeed, isn't yoga all about surrender ultimately but it has always had the active element?
For me anyway, something additional happened which was not active. It is possible that for some people, this thing would never be conscious.
It was purely perspectival. It wasn't a technique or a doing. I experienced it as a facing of truth. As a turning towards truth. And yes, these verbs "facing" and "turning" suggest activity also. Maybe there is an element of activity in it but not in the same willful sense I ever did yoga practices. I did not experience it as an act of will of any kind. Just a learning about reality and facing it.
An interesting thing happened to me as a consequence -- I started to develop a desire to have pictures of deities around me in my apartment! Hindu deities seemed to fit me best, even though my background is Christian, and I spent years as an atheist. I perceived meaning in Siva's raised right hand which I had never seen before. This right hand said "I've got it covered. I'm doing it". It tells me that my free will as I understood it is an illusion. It does not tell me not to intelligently use my free will. It tells me that Siva is doing it, that Siva has it covered.
I can't rule out the possibility that many people, including saints who surrounded themselves with such pictures from an early age, or by other means, had perhaps subconsciously resolved this paradox. It is possible that they always knew or at least eventually knew that their free will was an appearance only, and an appearance to be respected, but ultimately everything is all done by God/Siva.
By the way, I am sure that everything is done by God/Siva. I don't mean that in a way as to preclude anyone disagreeing with me. What I mean is that this is something about which I do not have any doubt whatsoever, not the tiniest shred. My position is not an unusual one at all in nondual spirituality. But what is glossed over is the connection, or even disconnect, or paradoxical connection, between this fact and apparent free will. I maintain that "everything is done by God/Siva/Krishna" implies that free will does not exist as we tend to conceive of it. Nothing of us is 'free' from Siva or the whole. There is nothing here free from Siva.
We are not the dancer, we are being danced.
It can be a very joyful, relaxing realization.
Peace,
L |
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Lakulisha
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 9:01:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
quote:
Originally posted by Lakulisha
But I can't find the edit button ... I see you guys editing your posts and poor me can't, or can't find how.... Maybe that privilege is only given when you've been at it for a while?
It's the little icon in the header of the post with the pen and paper (about the third or fourth from the left).
Now you're going to make me paranoid -- it's not there for me!!
Actually, it's probably just a forum mode that no-one knows about. It's probably a protection against spammers. I expect that the button will show up for me soon. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 9:12:31 PM
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| Hmmmm...maybe there is a trial period for that function. Sorry for the confusion. Hopefully, we can get an answer on that one. Stand by. |
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Lakulisha
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 9:14:36 PM
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Sunyata said:
Welcome to the forums. The experience of no self is but a milestone on our road to evolution.
Thanks for the welcome, Sunyata, and the help. In my case, it's OK, I knew that it was a milestone on our evolution. Is there anything positive that can be experienced that is not a milestone?
With spiritual practices, we come to a point where the intellectual discussions of whether free will exists or does not is not so important.
What I am saying is that recognition that free will is an illusion (not quite the same thing as saying that it does not exist) was a helpful transition for me on my path, and was significant for resolving for me the kind of dread which I experienced which I believe parallels what Jim is talking about.
As an intellectual discussion in and of itself, it might be suitable for philosophy departments but not for yoga. The point is not the intellectual discussion here, but the underlying realization.
To paraphrase Adyashanti, the intellect can be a great tool for spiritual realization, as long as it does not just become about the intellect.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 9:19:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lakulisha
An interesting thing happened to me as a consequence -- I started to develop a desire to have pictures of deities around me in my apartment! Hindu deities seemed to fit me best, even though my background is Christian, and I spent years as an atheist. I perceived meaning in Siva's raised right hand which I had never seen before. This right hand said "I've got it covered. I'm doing it". It tells me that my free will as I understood it is an illusion. It does not tell me not to intelligently use my free will. It tells me that Siva is doing it, that Siva has it covered.
Nice.
I see everyone as mini-Shivas and mini-Shaktis, walking around and waking up to the reality that the Many are the One and the One are the Many. I guess that's what's truly mind-blowing...that the whole can be contained within the tiniest piece. But, it's a holographic universe, so that's how it is. |
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sunyata
USA
1507 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2016 : 9:38:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Lakulisha
Sunyata said:
Welcome to the forums. The experience of no self is but a milestone on our road to evolution.
Is there anything positive that can be experienced that is not a milestone?
Yes, dear you are correct.
quote:
What I am saying is that recognition that free will is an illusion (not quite the same thing as saying that it does not exist) was a helpful transition for me on my path, and was significant for resolving for me the kind of dread which I experienced which I believe parallels what Jim is talking about.
quote:
As an intellectual discussion in and of itself, it might be suitable for philosophy departments but not for yoga. The point is not the intellectual discussion here, but the underlying realization.
Yes, the realization is recognized. But every now and then we do have intellectual discussions in yoga too.
quote:
To paraphrase Adyashanti, the intellect can be a great tool for spiritual realization, as long as it does not just become about the intellect.
Love Adya.
quote:
We are not the dancer, we are being danced.
It can be a very joyful, relaxing realization.
Yes, this is a good resting place. However, it's only half circle. The dancer and dance become one. It's one big Love explosion.
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Edited by - sunyata on Jul 28 2016 9:41:57 PM |
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Underlying Dread (or: When Was Road Runner Wrong?)
