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Dennis
USA
83 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 12:38:53 PM
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I am doing some reading on Tantra and Daoism and the author said that Tantra gets the energy to flow into the crown where it dissipates while Daoism circulates the energy through the body and is therefore better than Tantra. Tantra sends energy up while Daoism does that but sends it back down again in the front. I'm new at this so please forgive any ignorance on my part.
Any thoughts on this?
I basically thought they were equal in their ultimate goal. All the Daoism I see seems to deal with multiple male orgasms, etc and seems to be a little bit too sexually oriented. I'm fond of orgasms but that's not the end result I hope to achieve.
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jonesboy
USA
594 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 2:13:54 PM
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I would not agree with that.
Tantra is really a name for energy work. Working with energy. Daoism aka qi qong does the same thing.
Tantra is not all about sex. It gets it's name because when you start to feel the energy it feels very sexual. Western cultures has turned it into a sex thing instead of a beautiful spritual energy thing :)
What you are talking about is just one technique compared to another. AYP is really a tantra practice and no with regard to your question one is not better than the other.
True tantra energy work has nothing to do with touching ones body. The ecstatic feeling one receives is much better than an orgasism. This is where people get caught up in right and wrong and start judging. It is just a physical sensation that teaches one to let go. As one learns to let go more and more this becomes silence in our daily life. As we progress this ecstatic energy this orgasmic energy starts to go away and is replace by silence/emptiness/oneness.
There are many different methods. Find a system that speaks to you and dig that hole deep.
Good luck. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 10:08:40 PM
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Yes, in the Indian spiritual model of energy flow and management (which is most directly addressed in Tantra, but you can't easily separate Tantra from other Indian spiritual pursuits), energy is raised and raised and raised until kundalini activates and goes to crown. At that point, there's not a lot of technology for managing the grounding that needs to happen. You're urged to engage in the world, to take long walks, do exercise, etc, to lure it back down again. It's not terribly specific (Here, fyi, is the tale of a yogi (me!) struggling to find techniques to ground a super-abundance of upward energy).
Taoist techniques offer more specific technology for grounding; for draining energy back down the front.
It's deeper than just bodily energy. Indian spirituality is geared toward transcending worldly appearances...period. Taoist techniques are more about spanning the worldly and the transcendent (i.e. yin/yang). Encompassing the opposites rather than transcending them. It's not all black and white, however. There are Tantrics and yogis who would say they span and embrace both, and there are Taoist practitioners fixated on transcendence. So resist over-simplifying it in your head...it's not helpful, anyway.
Taoism is a billion things, in spite of what any one author says, and same for yoga and tantra. There's no pinning any of this down! And everybody - everybody - involved in spiritual practice confronts sexuality, and risks getting stuck there. For a certain phase, it all feels like sex, and not everyone gets past that. Don't blame the practice, blame the practitioners.
But, yes, generally, you're right. If you were reducing them to song titles, Indian spirituality (typified in tantra) is "Your Love Is Lifting Me Higher", and Chinese is "What Goes Up Must Come Down...."
The Taoist-style practitioners I know think the Indian-style practitioners are unduly negligent of the body. The tantra-style practitioners say the Taoist-style practitioners refuse to fully let go. To me, the best approach is to let go as deeply and frequently as you can....and give god or whomever the opportunity to handle your energy (micromanaging it is a trap). If, at a certain point, you start to experience issues, and self-pacing is only partially effective, then god (or whomever) will help those who help themselves, and you can experiment with my many suggestions in the previously linked posting, or you can turn to Taoism (but that's a pretty radical shift if you're doing AYP, and I've refused to go all the way there).
If you're not actually experiencing energy issues (and it sounds like you're not), my very strong suggestion is to stop reading and pondering and delving into philosophy. It's a hindrance. Practice faithfully, but otherwise engage in the world. That very engagement will be the best proactive aid to energy management you could ask for. Spiritual practice isn't another pursuit to learn about and to master. It's a stripping away rather than an augmentation. So I'd recommend you simply get on with it (stupidly, like brushing your teeth) and otherwise live life normally. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 19 2015 10:14:36 PM |
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Dogboy
USA
2201 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2015 : 12:02:42 AM
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quote:
If you're not actually experiencing energy issues (and it sounds like you're not), my very strong suggestion is to stop reading and pondering and delving into philosophy. It's a hindrance. Practice faithfully, but otherwise engage in the world. That very engagement will be the best proactive aid to energy management you could ask for. Spiritual practice isn't another pursuit to learn about and to master. It's a stripping away rather than an augmentation. So I'd recommend you simply get on with it (stupidly, like brushing your teeth) and otherwise live life normally.
Solid, simple advice. I've learned recently about dropping micromanaging, letting go letting God, getting more out of less. Surrender is not just about giving up after all; it's about being still and open to whatever unfolds in the following moments, and learning from that.
Edit: wording |
Edited by - Dogboy on Jun 20 2015 12:42:32 AM |
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Dennis
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2015 : 9:03:16 PM
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Thanks. I've done hatha yoga and TM when I was young and have an affinity towards Indian philosophy rather than Chinese so I'm definitely into AYP. It's a good fit for my personality. I'm only a few months in, I feel quite comfortable and am already experiencing benefits. I do feel that God has led me here.
Interesting what was said about grounding as I'm wondering what is done with the extra energy cultivated. I guess I'll deal with that when it happens.
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2015 : 11:03:43 PM
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quote:
I do feel that God has led me here.
I'm supposing God hasn't led you to brushing your teeth. I'd suggest, again, dropping any assumptions or associations about your practice, and adopting the attitude you apply to tooth-brushing. I realize I'm just some random voice on the Internet, but I can assure you that one day you'll see that this was quite helpful advice.
These stories and self-mythologies attach and aggregate like barnacles, and you will eventually need to scrape it all off (the philosophy you're reading, as well). I'd suggest that if you have a yearning for excitement, drama, and accomplishment, that you pursue them via your worldly pursuits. There's not much God or Glory in tooth-brushing. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2015 : 05:50:59 AM
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my mum told me to clean my teeth and shes a godeess |
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Dennis
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2015 : 12:25:36 PM
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Thanks for your replies but this is not about micromanaging, just learning. I feel a little bit of backlash in some of these answers. When I said God led me here, I'm not some wide eyed hippie cult follower. What I meant is that my life experiences fall much in tune with AYP practices so I feel at home here and familiar with some of the material. I find it easy to follow.
In fact, I am following AYP daily practices as you would brush your teeth. I am not expecting anything from it and trying to maintain a 'disireless' attitude about the whole thing. I'm just doing it. I know results will come but I have no expectations when or how they will come. I am just letting it unfold naturally.
But in terms of exciting, I can't think of anything more exciting than experiencing bliss on a daily basis.
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Dogboy
USA
2201 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2015 : 3:45:10 PM
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quote:
In fact, I am following AYP daily practices as you would brush your teeth. I am not expecting anything from it and trying to maintain a 'disireless' attitude about the whole thing. I'm just doing it. I know results will come but I have no expectations when or how they will come. I am just letting it unfold naturally.
But in terms of exciting, I can't think of anything more exciting than experiencing bliss on a daily basis.
Yes, Dennis, employ and deploy that "desire less attitude", for when bliss appears on a regular basis, you will need it to temper the experience, to "normalize" into the everyday. There will be a great temptation to play with the bliss, to bathe in it, to whip it into a frenzy; to do so will drive you blissfully into the ditch!  
Keep up the good work, you're definately on the right track.  |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2015 : 4:16:36 PM
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| Thank you Dennis for me you just affirm everything ayp is about ,it really does work in whatever way you choose it to be ,love ,bliss , exsperince ,non thought ,enlightenment need I say more ,the reality is it changes us as human being where it's going or how only the practitioners know this why we have level platform for all to tell there narrative no one is above beyond in front or behind we are all seekers in whichever form we choose ,I believe God gave me ayp as I asked for a path it is my belief and that is all that counts my level for the level of creation I feel is individual as is my form there is no denying this although I feel part of the whole. ,thank you again Dennis for sharing your journey it makes my faith stronger knowing you are here . |
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Dennis
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2015 : 02:46:35 AM
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kumar ul islam. I am very pleased yet surprised that my posting was inspiring to you.
Dogboy
Thank you for your kind answer and caution. I assume you mean that upon obtaining a state of bliss, there's a tendency to withdraw from life and daily activities and just experience the bliss. I'll watch out for that when/if I obtain that state. Is it ok to 'bathe in it' and 'play with it' as long as your 'normal' life continues? I can understand not becoming a hermit but you make it sound like you shouldn't enjoy the bliss very much. So can you elaborate on what you mean by 'play with it', 'whip it into a frenzy' and why I should avoid that.
Thank you.
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Dogboy
USA
2201 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2015 : 07:40:59 AM
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Enjoy it as it arises, yes, it is divine "good vibrations", and as Yogani coins it, wonderful scenery along the way. My caution is not to form attachments, try to micromanage it or foster addiction to it. All of that is possible once kundalini is active, which can detour you and/or lead to overload. The more enjoyable thing about the bliss bubbling forth is sharing it in your interactions with others. This is an outward expression of it, rather than an inwardly "hoarding".
Keep up your practice and soon enough you will have a taste of it, and learn through your own experience ! |
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2015 : 12:56:19 PM
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Hi Dennis no need to ask anyone what is ok or not and if you drive into a ditch so what? Do it often enough and you will figure it out.
No need to develop any beliefs your own or someone else’s you can figure it out for yourself and that is the only way it will count.
It is perfect to make mistakes sometimes it is the best way to learn just let the learning be based on your own mistakes and better yet your own corrections that way you can be sure.
All of us who answer do so from our own level of experience and clarity Jim and his karma are coming from a level that is not easily understood and what may seem somewhat hostile really is not. If it were the post would not appear in the first place.
Jim and his writing often zing me with an ah ha moment truly priceless.
When it comes to practice always just easily favor the practice if bliss comes do not ignore or turn away from simply experience it while easily favoring the practice sometimes it will be so beautiful and feel so great it will steal your mind and your breath just be with it and favor the practice developing aversion or being scared of what is going to happen as a byproduct of the practice anyway will not be helpful.
If you alter the baseline practice like for example chasing the bliss or trying to generate it then you will soon realize the bliss is a byproduct of the practice and the surest way to keep it is by favoring the practice not the byproduct. Nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of the tree. Afterwards living in the ecstatic Conductivity is perfectly fine, but while in practice easily favor the practice.
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Edited by - So-Hi on Jun 26 2015 1:02:32 PM |
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Dennis
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jun 26 2015 : 3:03:24 PM
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Thank you, Dogboy.
So-Hi, Thank you for that very concise statement about favoring the practice, not the byproducts of it. I understand and will avoid that pitfall. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2015 : 12:03:57 AM
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I got into yoga because of a strong sense that most of my assumptions about myself and the world were wrong. I wanted to be stripped of falsehood, and of the encumbrances of habit, propensity and delusion. The further I got, the more I realized how deep and stubborn those false assumptions and encumbrances were (and I also saw, to my chagrin, that I tended to drag them all into my spirituality). I've loved the stripping away; the letting go of entrenched notions. It feels wonderful. It feels light.
I assume people attracted to yoga share my yearning to jump their train tracks; to be massively surprised by how things are, by WHO they are. To find out how wrong they've been about so much. But, to my great surprise, most people don't seem to start from that perspective; it arises later. And my particular nature makes it unusually difficult for me to relate to people engaged in spiritual practice who seek corroboration; who find it irritating to be pushed off balance and who take umbrage at the notion that they're not actually driving this thing after all....and that nothing but flips and strips and surprises lie ahead. To me, that stuff's the GOOD news; the basis of this whole thing! But, again, that's just me. I'm weird.
Yogani is so great at making everyone feel terribly wise and correct about everything as he craftily entices them into these practices. The practices, it is hoped, will slowly, gently help them discover for themselves that, whoops, things are not as they seemed. Alas, sometimes they just heighten their delusions and fortify their assumptions with their newfound spirituality majesty. I figure it's a temporary setback.
But I'm a guy who loves to be rubbed the wrong way and knocked off balance; to be zinged with "ah-ha!" moments which upturn my mental complacency. And I try to pay it forward. I'm so happy I've managed it once in a while for So-Hi, and I was trying to do the same for you, Dennis. I took time out of a busy day to offer some perspective. Sorry it didn't click.
And it's not that I'm so high and mighty or anything (thanks, though, So-Ho!). It's just that different people click with different expressions. I seem to click only with a narrow minority. It's a good thing I'm not trying to be a teacher!! |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 27 2015 12:13:12 AM |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2015 : 01:43:42 AM
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| we must believe in free will ,we have no choice. |
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2015 : 02:27:20 AM
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I enjoy your rhetoric, Jim. Always nice to see someone using language with gusto, even if that gusto is used to elaborate on how wrong we are, or how little we know.
Robust humility is appreciated, as is the necessity of brushing one's teeth! 
Jack Kornfield wrote: "After the ecstasy, the laundry."
But I write: "During the ecstasy, the laundry." Seriously, have you ever felt orgasmic while doing the laundry? It's a trip, bro! |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2015 : 04:26:05 AM
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Hi Jim,
I hear everything you say. Loud and clear! You say that you are not trying to be a teacher, well you do not have to try because you are....
Grabbing what you say with the (thinking) mind is not possible, and it takes time and practice to hear what you say.
I am also the weird one, but happy to see that there are more of me, and I enjoy reading your posts.
You describe what I feel but because English is not my native language I can not write it as I would do in my own language.
When feeling light and see your own personal drama as interesting, that is the change of perspective. Then you can enjoy the un doing. Not involved, but see and feel the actions and reactions of body and mind. You can stay in your center, not involved.
As long as you are involved in the personal drama, you feel attacked if someone says what you are saying. Even on this forum. ( I don't want to be harsh) I noticed in life that it is better not to talk, only if people really ask. But even then, is what I say sometimes scary or not wanted to be heard. And that is also understandable, because it turns your world upside down. And also because of Kumars wise words
Sometimes it makes me feel lonely, one of the reasons why I am here on this forum and read inspiring posts like yours.
Thank you Jim  |
Edited by - Charliedog on Jun 27 2015 05:29:30 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2015 : 10:31:53 AM
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Charliedog,
Your English is excellent!
One little push:
quote:
You can stay in your center
To be somewhere is to not be somewhere else. Every "here" creates a "there". Those are the bricks we use to create this infinitely varying dream, where we entertain ourselves by pretending we're in this body and the rest is out there.
But there's no here, no there. No center to inhabit (and no inhabitant in the first place...just love). No foothold to support your stance. And, thus, no loneliness.
You can convince yourself otherwise, simply by dividing your perspective. And the perspective can turn into a habit, giving the impression that there's no alternative. And that's all fine (that's what we're here for; to get lost in the movie). But you chose this. This is YOUR pretending. And you can make other choices.
Residing in a mansion of infinite rooms, she huddled in but one, ever rueful of limitation.... |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Jun 27 2015 10:44:16 AM |
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Dennis
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2015 : 9:09:04 PM
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Jim,
I do appreciate the time you took to answer my question. Your first post here was exactly the answer I wanted. Very clear. But after that, some suggestions were made in posts
and I felt some incorrect assumptions were being made about me. I'm very new to posting here so perhaps I'm overly sensitive since I don't know the mindset of the people here. I know now you were just trying to help so thank you for that.
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2015 : 08:28:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Residing in a mansion of infinite rooms, she huddled in but one, ever rueful of limitation....
Writing and communication is an interesting challenge the impersonal way.
There is not much to say,
To be or not to be.
Alone or al one
the Word says it all
It is how it is interpreted by the mind
Stay in the center, see it is all there
not mine not yours
happening
Now
@ Dennis, the more books you read the more different approaches you will get. It is interesting but also confusing. In the end it is your own experience of your own practice which counts. Keep your practice simple, less is more. We are all here to share our experiences, this is inspiring and helpful for all of us.
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Edited by - Charliedog on Jun 28 2015 08:32:21 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Jun 28 2015 : 9:38:42 PM
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| Where are you when you're not staying in the center? |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2015 : 12:41:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
Where are you when you're not staying in the center?
There is no center, can not find it anymore.... Thanks Jim for the push! |
Edited by - Charliedog on Jun 29 2015 02:24:02 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2015 : 05:24:02 AM
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Jquote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
I got into yoga because of a strong sense that most of my assumptions about myself and the world were wrong. I wanted to be stripped of falsehood, and of the encumbrances of habit, propensity and delusion. The further I got, the more I realized how deep and stubborn those false assumptions and encumbrances were (and I also saw, to my chagrin, that I tended to drag them all into my spirituality). I've loved the stripping away; the letting go of entrenched notions. It feels wonderful. It feels light.
I assume people attracted to yoga share my yearning to jump their train tracks; to be massively surprised by how things are, by WHO they are. To find out how wrong they've been about so much. But, to my great surprise, most people don't seem to start from that perspective; it arises later. And my particular nature makes it unusually difficult for me to relate to people engaged in spiritual practice who seek corroboration; who find it irritating to be pushed off balance and who take umbrage at the notion that they're not actually driving this thing after all....and that nothing but flips and strips and surprises lie ahead. To me, that stuff's the GOOD news; the basis of this whole thing! But, again, that's just me. I'm weird.
Yogani is so great at making everyone feel terribly wise and correct about everything as he craftily entices them into these practices. The practices, it is hoped, will slowly, gently help them discover for themselves that, whoops, things are not as they seemed. Alas, sometimes they just heighten their delusions and fortify their assumptions with their newfound spirituality majesty. I figure it's a temporary setback.
But I'm a guy who loves to be rubbed the wrong way and knocked off balance; to be zinged with "ah-ha!" moments which upturn my mental complacency. And I try to pay it forward. I'm so happy I've managed it once in a while for So-Hi, and I was trying to do the same for you, Dennis. I took time out of a busy day to offer some perspective. Sorry it didn't click.
And it's not that I'm so high and mighty or anything (thanks, though, So-Ho!). It's just that different people click with different expressions. I seem to click only with a narrow minority. It's a good thing I'm not trying to be a teacher!!
Yet you are teaching. |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 02:06:58 AM
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| centre everywhere circumference nowhere. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 03:21:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
centre everywhere circumference nowhere.
The word center means midpoint, there is no center. Infinite space. All or nothing, nothing at all.
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Tantra vs Daoism
