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hayaku
Australia
4 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 09 2015 : 11:23:13 AM
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Hello.
I have been practising mediation for almost 3 years now on and off, and recently have recommitted to daily practice after finding this website.
I would firstly like to say that I study neuroscience at postgraduate level and have experimented with psychedelics in the past. Without cheapening the spiritual value of meditation, I personally believe these are all interchangeable brain states, and have not discriminated between methods of reaching my goals.
Ok so with that said, on to my question: Sometimes when I meditate I find myself feeling like I am emerging forward into another world, it is very hard to describe but it feels something like fading from material existence and finding myself in a world of cartoons, or inside somebody else's dream. Even a few seconds here is a true achievement, and I find myself with heightened energy, concentration and well-being for days afterwards just my making it here so naturally I strive to reach this state every time I meditate although it rarely happens.
The problem is, inside this state I stop breathing, or at least I am quite certain that I do. I do no feel any panic or experience any breathlessness, but I am also aware that I am essentially holding my breath and feel like I could do so indefinitely. I usually suspend/come out of this state, not due to a physiological urge to breath but because I worry that I will suffocate. I am always tempted to stay in this state longer but do not want to kill myself or damage my brain. It scares me a little that I do not feel the need to breath when I enter this state, perhaps as if I am overriding a physical response that is there for an important reason.
What am I experiencing? What do more advanced mediators do to stay in this state longer? I am well aware that I probably am breathing, and that my anxiety and concern are all for nothing. But without knowing more, I fell a little lost.
Thanks for the help
James |
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jusmail
India
491 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2015 : 12:48:05 PM
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| Welcome. It is probably the witness stage that you enter. |
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yogani
USA
5195 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2015 : 3:03:08 PM
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Hi hayaku, and welcome!
You are touching on two topics here -- chemically versus naturally induced states of consciousness, and the phenomenon of breath suspension during spiritual practice. And maybe one other -- looking for a particular experience during spiritual practice.
On hallucinogen (chemically) induced states, see Lesson 307 for the AYP take on it.
On breath suspension, the short answer is that naturally reduced metabolism results in naturally reduced oxygen consumption and naturally reduced breathing. There is nothing to worry about when breath suspends naturally during spiritual practice. It is a sign of absorption in deep inner silence, also called samadhi. It is very good, particularly if this inner silence comes to abide in the course of our daily life, which we also call the witness, the part of us that is beyond the ups and downs of life. It is where we are free and able to function in the world with greater joy and purpose, even in adverse circumstances.
Intentional breath suspension is another matter, and caution is advised. In yoga parlance, this is called "kumbhaka." There are many nuances on breath and spiritual development, which are covered in the large field of pranayama. For some more detail, see Lesson 378.
On seeking particular experiences during meditation or other spiritual practices, it can be counterproductive, because structured practice involves the use of specific techniques, and going in with expectations about what we would like to have happen can distort the practice, and the process of inner purification and opening we are systematically cultivating. In the AYP approach, we practice favoring the procedure for the allotted time of sitting and then go out into our normal daily activity. If the practice is effective, we will find the results integrating naturally and permanently into our daily life with many practical benefits. Lesson 94 goes into expectations during practice in more detail.
Wishing you all the best on your chosen path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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hayaku
Australia
4 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2015 : 4:38:07 PM
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Thanks for all those replies :)
I am aware of the pitfalls of relying on substances to achieve spiritual growth, but in studying how these are typically used I am fairly convinced I am using them in a responsible way. When I do take them, I achieve states of consciousness I could ever hope to achieve normally. With daily meditation, I can actually prolong these states for months and months afterwards, without any drug at all. In fact I have found that further drug use (especially alcohol) actually destroy this carefully nurtured state, and even meditation cannot totally bring it back. With discipline, I can prolong this state for anywhere between 2-10 months, which is amazing when you think about it.
And what are these states? I can only begin to describe, but it feels like it unlocks my imagination, which allows me to think very creatively and have amazing ideas spontaneously, but also makes physical reality subtly resemble a wonderful work of art, as if I am trapped in an oil painting. Even things that would make me angry, such as an ugly building or an overturned trashcan just look so beautiful I have no choice but to smile and feel surrounded by beauty and warmth, as if every object or perspective in life has been drawn by a master artist. I do want to get here naturally, and that is of course my final aim. But I have to know what I am fighting for, and using these is my way of reminding myself of that. Once I have that memory fresh in my mind, the meditation has a real purpose.
I will be careful when "kumbhaka" comes on, I was really just wanting to know how much to embrace or reject it (or even none of these) as its quite unlike any of the other experiences I get, which are all very manageable and intuitive. When this comes on, it feels like I have no idea what to do next.
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Edited by - hayaku on Jun 09 2015 4:43:56 PM |
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Dogboy
USA
2202 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2015 : 4:55:50 PM
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I often experience breath suspension in DM; my guru Inyou has long advised to surrender the novelty of it. I'm still here to testify.
Seems to me you already have an idea, via the psychedelics, of what is spiritually possible, and that taking more may not get you any closer necessarily. The echos of them are in the silence. Your practice can only amplify those echoes; it is already paying big dividends!  |
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2015 : 5:01:49 PM
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Like Yogani said kumbhaka is the forced practice of breath suspension.
The naturally occurring breath suspension you have is super positive. But Yogani emphasized that even that great experience shouldn't be thought of as more important than just establishing a regular practice. |
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hayaku
Australia
4 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 07:32:54 AM
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Yeah thanks.
I remember a few years ago, when I could literally judge the success of a meditation session after it was finished, by walking up to my kitchen window and looking out. The degree to which the same familiar view would take on a 'cartoonish' style and hit me in my stomach with a pure ecstatic awe would literally change every time. Each day it would fade some, and each time I meditated it would restore some. I never got it back to the levels experienced during psychadelic experimentation but I certainly had it hovering around the 70-80% mark for very close to a year after. I judged this as my mark of success because of all the things meditation and psychoactive substances have done, this ability to see the world in this way has simply brought out the best in me, in my life and behaviour.
This is not something I ever 'seek out' during meditation, as each experience is so different from the last. It was just a way of measuring how much change a given session has made, because I concluded somehow that the world 'wants to be seen' as a thing of beauty and that it is our limitations and personal blockages that get in the way to prevent this, leading to the bad moods and bad reactions we succumb to.
The feeling I get, of 'breaking through into a dream world' when I spontaneously find myself breath holding is very close to this feeling, which I feel is rooted in a deeper understanding that comes when we appreciate the impermanence and illusionary nature of reality itself. I never used to really have it before. I will say that I have not had any psychedelics in almost 2 years, but even when I had ready supply I would not generally use them more than 2-4 times per year, and always after having studied something to exhaustion and wanting to consolidate all that knowledge into a more accessible, more implicit thought or experience which these substances were very good at doing!
Ok just my journey so far. I'm open to ideas/suggestions about where to take things from here, up to and including abstaining from meditation "performance enhancing substances" for good. Somehow, I just feel like they still have a part to play so I am keeping myself open minded. |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2015 : 12:09:50 PM
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Welcome hayaku,
Thank you for sharing your experiences. IMHO the experiences you have are wonderful, if the breath stops naturally than that is your natural state for that moment. I recognize all you are saying. (except the taking psychedelic part) The views you have with merging and cartoons are more common as you experience them more often.
Enjoy this journey, you are on the right track!
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2015 : 10:36:13 AM
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When the breath stops on the inhalation on its own this is called Kevala Khumbaka, it is fine when it happens on it's own until the point where it is not
With this body the ecstatic conductivity coupled with stage 3 /4 Kechari is such that the flows were becoming to polarized even though they were automatic they were too polarized on the upwards motion and inhalation then would hold for a long, Long time without discomfort but soon it was discovered through the day that the body was being injured as there was pain in the Bronchial Tubes.
So even though it was automatic and comfortable and beyond blissful it was recognized the practice of Spinal Breathing was not being honored in that The technique was not being "easily favored" but the bliss and ecstasy and stillness were being favored so it was known the practice was off.
Now it was recognized self pacing and easily favoring the practice needed to be done.
Ah but what to do as the breath would grab and suspend in blissfulness and would resist effort to favor the practice and exhale.
So now favoring the practice had to be honored and it was by experimenting.
Here is how it was done. On the inhalation once full and arriving at the point between the eyebrows feeling a great buildup of energy and ecstatic conductivity favor the practice and exhale down to the perineum. No matter how bad you want to stay at the top and be swept away.
Next once reaching the perineum after fully exhaling just stay there with it for as long as comfortable without breathing. Honoring what was perceived as the Femaleness of that pole giving her, her due consideration in silence and stillness instead of rushing off like hitting a trampoline and bouncing back up.
This is not favoring the practice but intuitive correcting an imbalance. Prior to this the ecstatic conductivity was only really during the inhalation and the exhalation was lacking after doing this several times it was realized that now ecstatic conductivity was happening during the exhalation also and a balance occurred.
Easily favoring the practice lead to Natural Energeticly directed Khumbaka on the inhalation and Natural Energeticly directed Khumbaka on the exhalation, very naturally and ecstatically, both ways, at both poles. I consider the Perineum as her as in Female and the point between the eyebrows as he or Male it just feels correct.
In a few days the pain went away, this had been going on for years on and off and in the past it was always considered Kechari was somehow stretching things it should not be but that was experimented with and proved not to be the case. It was too much imbalanced Khumbaka at the top.
May this sharing be useful. Always Easily Favor the practice. |
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Holding breath / into the void....
