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Eric
Germany
5 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 29 2015 : 04:03:49 AM
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Hi all together,
now after a few months of AYP-practice, I recently found that I could just consciously go into the witness state in my meditation and also pretty much at any time during the day.
Strangely though, in this state the mantra kind of seems a bit in the way, although I feel pretty much used to it.
So I now tried out what would happen if I simply dive into the witness in meditation while letting everything else go, and the result was a nice, deep and silky soft silence in which I felt satisfied and happy.  As far as I understand it, wouldn´t the mantra eventually lead to a diving into the witness aswell?
If so, I`d be a little bit tempted to leave the mantra away and do it by myself, kind of. I have also noticed that after the witness meditation I felt more peaceful, positive and with more remaining silence in the time after my practices.
Yet I thought that on the long run, the mantra certainly has a lot of positive and purifying effects, specifically on the sushumna, so I don´t want to abandon it.
Would it maybe work to use it instead as a counting tool for my 15 minutes of asanas before the sitting practices?
I don´t quite know what to do now.
Please share your opinions
Thanks to all who reply,
Eric |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2015 : 06:32:20 AM
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Hello Eric, welcome to the forum!
There is a bit of a trap many - if not all - yogis encounter at the beginning of their practice - attachment to some sort of pleasant state arising in meditation. You have hit on this pleasant state and are tempted to hang on to it. This hanging on would block your progress. Attachment to anything is a trap. You will experience all sorts of states during meditation, from blissful to unpleasant, sometimes even awful. That is the journey. Let everything come that must come, and let everything go. Let the Witness witness whatever there is - do not get stuck in one place, even if it's a happy place.
My advice is to stick to the mantra meditation as described in the lessons.
All the best on your journey. |
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Apr 29 2015 07:40:22 AM |
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Blanche
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2015 : 06:47:41 AM
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Hello Eric, and welcome to the Forum!
You are getting some nice results in a relatively short time: "a nice, deep and silky soft silence in which I felt satisfied and happy" describes a state of deep meditation, in which you get after the Kundalini quiets down to a stable smooth pace. I think I know what you mean when you say you feel "satisfied" - one wants to stay like that forever! While this state of deep meditation is wonderful, I assure you that there are many more other states as you go deeper. If you stay at this stage and stop the mantra, how will you go farther?
I would suggest you get to "satisfied and happy" state, with mantra or without, and stay in it for a while - it is new, interesting, and you want to explore it and make it stable. Then, get back to the mantra. This "satisfied and happy" state will dissolve into quiet stillness - the witness. The feelings disappear. There is vibration everywhere. After that, there will be a state of tremendous interior expansion. And the journey will continue.
The mantra is the tool that took you so far. Do not get distracted from the path. The mantra will take you farther. Best wishes for your very nice practice! 
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LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2015 : 12:36:42 PM
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| I agree with Blanch, but I would add that you could add a few minutes of sitting in that witness state at the end of your mantra meditation. A perfect opening to then go on to samyama. |
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Eric
Germany
5 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2015 : 2:06:48 PM
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Thanks for your nice replies already! :)
It´s funny how the mind works, attaching to something while thinking it does the oposite 
Certainly I don´t want to get stuck, so for now I´ll stick with the mantra and do the witness thingy at the end of my session.
Thanks alot!  |
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fusions
Netherlands
18 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 1:33:57 PM
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I appreciate all ways but personally I have found this man to be very knowledgeable, experienced and useful: https://www.youtube.com/user/ChannelHigherSelf
He sometimes teaches mantra meditation as well but says that mantra meditation is only effective at the earlier stages because ultimately you want to give up the mind all together, surrender the personal self in the silence of the Self. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 3:26:31 PM
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Hi Fusions,
Welcome to the forum.
quote:
He sometimes teaches mantra meditation as well but says that mantra meditation is only effective at the earlier stages because ultimately you want to give up the mind all together, surrender the personal self in the silence of the Self.
With AYP Deep Meditation, the mantra is used in a particular way. We pick up the mantra, and start repeating it over and over in the mind. When we lose the mantra and find ourselves wandering off onto thoughts, or sensations in the body or sounds outside the room and we realize we have lost it, we come back to it.
This will happen quite frequently for a while when we are new to the practice. Once we start to become more proficient with the meditation, we begin to find that instead of losing the mantra onto thought, we find that we are losing the mantra into silence (samadhi). At this point we have gone beyond the mind. Then, again, when we realize we have lost the mantra, we come back to it and then again we will find that we lose the mantra into silence.
So in this way through the practice of mantra meditation we can be repeatedly entering samadhi. When the mind becomes very still, we may find that when we sit down to meditate, we only repeat the mantra once or twice and we enter samadhi for the remainder of the sitting. As you say, surrendered into the silence of the Self.
So with Deep Meditation practice, there is never a point where we need to leave that meditation for some more advanced practice. There are other forms of mantra meditation which are more basic and which would be replaced later as the practitioner progresses.
Christi |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2015 : 8:20:13 PM
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@Christi
very nice explanation of DM's progress levels!
It would be interesting to read from your experience regarding the latter one (repeating once, twice). The depths of silence are endless, so the depths of bliss. when the body-mind -after a mantra repetition- enters into silent bliss to such a degree, that the absorption remains for an unknown length: is it a rare happening or is there a tendency for this to happen more and more?
@Eric
your question came up several times in different threads of this forum. Perhaps you can find more information with some forum searching :) To my own experience, resting as the silent witness always felt best, but led to various difficulties along the months. The witness developed faster than any other attempt, but at some point it became an unstoppable happening that continued to deepen beyond control so to speak. It was bliss to death, no one to complain except everyone who was interacting with a corpse lying, blissed out, but nonfunctional :P It may be an extreme case, but it was and still is a reproducable happening directly linked to awareness-based meditation. With other forms of meditation the control always remained and with that dosing the session was always at hand.
Depending upon age and responsibilities, the methods of spiritual practice need to be adapted very much. If one is in a retarding position, directly going for eternal bliss and melting in it until nothing remains is a fastly working option. At least for the one dissolving it is instant paradise. But if the situations do not allow, especially if you still need some working mind, purifying and transforming the body-mind via other means are a safer approach. Later going into eternal best also becomes MUCH easier and the body-mind will be more capable in handling the extreme blisses, so that the chance is also higher to keep a functional body-mind for way longer times.
I learned that awareness-based meditation from Maitreya Ishwara, he melted like that for 20 years and was permanently blissed out to death. The only problem is, few years after his enlightenment he left the body, even though he was still young, he obviously could not hold the body-mind anymore. When all wishes have dissolved, this is natural. But yogis have shown to be more skilled in keeping the body-mind intact even after their enlightenment, so it is also a question of approach and aim.
It is very hard to say what is better, as there can be no better in this regard (= Therefore whatever attracts you, is the ideal practice.
The only important thing,
happy continuous practice friends! :) |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 06:46:40 AM
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quote:
It would be interesting to read from your experience regarding the latter one (repeating once, twice). The depths of silence are endless, so the depths of bliss. when the body-mind -after a mantra repetition- enters into silent bliss to such a degree, that the absorption remains for an unknown length: is it a rare happening or is there a tendency for this to happen more and more?
Hi Holy,
In the beginning it is a rare occurrence, but it will happen more and more with practice. It will also tend to happen with other practices as well, such a samyama.
Gradually there is an overspill into daily life too, where we begin to enter a state of samadhi even whilst we are engaged in our normal activities. When this happens it is called sahaja samadhi, or natural or spontaneously arising samdhi.
Christi |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 06:58:11 AM
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Dear Holy,
If I may answer your question to Christi - this subject of dissolving into the depths of silence /bliss, in other words some level of samadhi, is one which greatly interest me also. For me a complete immersion whereby I lose all senses is often but always of very short duration (a minute or two). What is more common and happening throughout the sitting is I still have my senses (eyes closed, but third eye active; I can hear /feel) but all that arises is just witnessed from a clear state. This witnessing from a clear state is carried over beyond sittings into my daily. And this state is blissful, satisfyingly blissful but rarely overwhelmingly so. However, it is a state which allows me to live consciously. Is that still some initial level of samadhi? I don't know. Does going into some grand state of samadhi important? I don't know. I sure would love to experience it. A lot of things I thought was important initially is slowly revealed as not important. I guess my question is - how important is it?
Sey  |
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 09:09:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
A lot of things I thought was important initially is slowly revealed as not important. I guess my question is - how important is it?
Sey
Dear Sey and all together,
How important are the layers of samadhi ?
In my experience, at a certain moment there are not so many questions anymore, because of the knowing that everyone has his or her own experience, and describes That what can not be described in his or her own meaningful words.....In my opinion al names are labels, but how to teach without ? The more experience, the more paradoxes arise.
Enjoy the mystery! Know Nothing. At the same time, keep trying to explain...
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Edited by - Charliedog on May 05 2015 11:13:29 AM |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 3:52:09 PM
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| hi i think the gradual wearing away of the layers that cover own divine self are removed by the all the practices in balance the real and exstra ordinary thing for me is that i really dont remember what i was before but i now know what i am becoming and it is like remembering but in completely different way a knowing that all is transient from the cosmic to the atomic and that my form was created sustained and will be transformed and that is reality ,my awareness is aware that i am just that, a being in changing form readying itself for more change ,if you believe the teaching of the sages then when departure happens we chose our destination samadhi is maybe the light that leads the way .there is a saying what god doesnt know about samadhi is not worth knowing . |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 4:22:54 PM
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Hi Kumar,
quote:
there is a saying what god doesnt know about samadhi is not worth knowing .
I think that is the best saying I have ever heard! |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 5:07:53 PM
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Hi Sey,
quote:
I guess my question is - how important is it?
Samadhi, at whatever level is essentially coming to know the true nature of the Self. Knowing the true nature of the self is a state of bliss and freedom and joy and love and unity. Basically all the fruits of yoga and yoga itself. So entering samadhi on a regular basis in meditation leads to a living in daily life as the Self (enlightenment).
In other words, it is very important.
But it is not necessary to set it up as a goal or worry about whether it is important or not. At a certain stage in the sadhana, it simply happens. It will happen automatically when the mind is quiet and still and the subtle body has been purified enough to allow it to happen. So all we need to do is continue with our practices, continue coming back to the mantra when we notice we are off it, continue moving up and down the spine with our attention in Spinal Breathing and continue releasing the sutras into silence in samyama. Samadhi simply comes of its own accord, often when we are least expecting it. The only way it cannot happen is if we stop practising, or if we start changing our practices according to the experiences we are having at the time (chasing experiences).
Christi |
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
791 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 5:23:20 PM
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peace to you brother tristan my time at the ayp retreat in the cotswolds really made my practice a firm foundation thankyou. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2015 : 6:05:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar ul islam
peace to you brother tristan my time at the ayp retreat in the cotswolds really made my practice a firm foundation thankyou.
Hi Kumar,
It was a joy. We must do it again some time!
Christi |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2015 : 06:50:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Sey,
quote:
I guess my question is - how important is it?
Samadhi, at whatever level is essentially coming to know the true nature of the Self. Knowing the true nature of the self is a state of bliss and freedom and joy and love and unity. Basically all the fruits of yoga and yoga itself. So entering samadhi on a regular basis in meditation leads to a living in daily life as the Self (enlightenment).
In other words, it is very important.
But it is not necessary to set it up as a goal or worry about whether it is important or not. At a certain stage in the sadhana, it simply happens. It will happen automatically when the mind is quiet and still and the subtle body has been purified enough to allow it to happen. So all we need to do is continue with our practices, continue coming back to the mantra when we notice we are off it, continue moving up and down the spine with our attention in Spinal Breathing and continue releasing the sutras into silence in samyama. Samadhi simply comes of its own accord, often when we are least expecting it. The only way it cannot happen is if we stop practising, or if we start changing our practices according to the experiences we are having at the time (chasing experiences).
Christi
Thank you Christi. I completely agree with you but You, like me, have the AYP take on things. And what I was trying to put across is in AYP development, samadhi happens at a slow, steady pace, almost creeping up on you. Holy (and others) being from the Kriya (and other) traditions often reports on grand experiences of samadhi so I am asking do these peak experiences necessarily contributed to "I am living this every day", steady spiritual growth?
Or is it just that - experiences - and one still have to spend years of steady practice with no bells and whistles to stabilize things? How important is these peak experiences in the scheme of things?
Sey
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Charliedog
1625 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2015 : 06:50:22 AM
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Dear all,
@ Kumar @ Christy,
Thank you for the beautiful explanations of samadhi, I would like to apologize for my words, forgive me please. 
I am here to read and learn from your words. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2015 : 1:39:14 PM
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Hi Christi,
thank you for your answer :)
Dear Sey,
thank you for your answer too :)
In my time with DM, I had experienced the same progress as Christi describes, only the last part did not happen, therefore the question :) Also there were few incidents with SBP+DM of more intense samadhis happening in the daytime inbetween practices, mostly very luminously in the mental field and the sensual perception, but always very much unbalanced with intense side-effects. The long-term self-paced practice should handle that aspect.
When it comes to the peak states, even realized guys (Sadhguru, Gurunath, Shibendu) report, that they only hit these states some times per day, as the body-minds cannot survive otherwise. The depth and intensity of these peak states and their frequency very much depend upon the transformation and increase of capacity, that has occured to the body-mind. Shibendu is not into these things, but Jaggi and Gurunath work with mercury to increase their capacities, both by ingestion aswell as outer installations like their shiva-lingas. From a stable blissed-out base state to ecstatic delirium and back to base (= The quality of the base-state is surely the most important, everything else is a bonus.
For grand experiences huge amounts of prana are needed, even today if you push the pranic amount you will have your grand experience, so its not a big deal. But without a stable base the fun will be short aswell, therefore
happy continuous practice friends! :) |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - May 09 2015 : 6:53:35 PM
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Hi Sey,
If you are asking about how important it is to be able to enter nirvikalpa samadhi as opposed to savikalpa samadhi during meditation that is not so easy to answer. As I am sure you know, nirvikalpa samadhi is a deeper form of samadhi where we go beyond the surface mind into a state of pure abiding in the bliss of the Self. So in Nirvikalpa samadhi, we come to know who we are in a very direct and simple way.
At the end of the day, enlightenment is not about attaining grand peak states, it is about living our lives from a place of love and joy and freedom and purity and selflessness. We cannot experience these qualities fully unless we come to know who we are, and we cannot come to know who we are unless we can bring the mind to stillness in order to see beyond the veil of delusion (maya). That stillness is samadhi.
So how important is the depth of samadhi that we experience in meditation, with regards to coming to know who we really are?
I would say that as long as we can develop enough depth of samadhi to be able to develop purity of vision (vijnana), then that is enough. The rest will be taken care of.
So in that sense, grand peak experiences are not that important compared to cultivating the ability to simply abide in inner silence and purify the heart (SBP) twice a day. In that way we gradually develop the ability to be able to distinguish between the real and the unreal and to let the unreal fall away.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2015 : 1:03:44 PM
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Hi Sey,
p.s.
Just to let you know, this question, about the importance of "grant peak experiences" such as nirvikalpa samadhi is one which has come up many times in the history of yoga and different schools of yoga have radically different views on it. Some schools will teach that is is not necessary at all and can even be a distraction on the path. They say that attempting to reach such peak states can become a goal in itself to the detriment of the real process which is that of coming to know the truth as a permanent reality.
Other schools, at the other extreme, say that such states are extremely important and that a practitioner cannot become enlightened without first attaining these peak states and being able to enter them at will. They also sometimes say that enlightenment will only come through the repeated experience of these states.
Most schools of yoga will fall somewhere in between these two extremes. The irony is that, because of the paradoxical nature of yoga, especially in the higher stages, both of these schools of thought are right.
So what I offered above is really a middle way between the two extremes, where we acknowledge that peak experiences happen, and play a role in the sadhana, but do not put too much emphasis on them. At the same time caution is given over becoming too attached to them, along with any experience that can happen on the path.
Christi |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2015 : 2:47:08 PM
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| This is a very informative post. Thank you, Christi! |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1532 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2015 : 05:43:40 AM
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Thank you Christi / Holy for your wisdom and gentle guidance always.
I am quite content to live my life from a place of love and joy and freedom and purity and selflessness but being a curious child I do hope I get to experience Nirvikalpa Samadhi one day to satisfy my curiosity
Sey
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Christi
United Kingdom
4379 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2015 : 07:34:22 AM
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2015 : 10:12:05 PM
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adishivayogi
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2015 : 01:17:44 AM
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| delteme |
Edited by - adishivayogi on May 12 2015 06:07:55 AM |
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meditating on the witness
