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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 01 2014 : 11:01:11 AM
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Been meaning to mention here that as one who was a bit uneasy about the mantra at first, I decided after a year that I would give it another try after switching to breath focus for about a year. This was after 3-4 months of mantra.
I noticed significant results right away. All the former issues I had with it were gone, and it has since led me into much deeper and more profound levels of stillness.
Initially my biggest issue with a mantra was conceptual: the breath is a natural activity of the body, but the mantra is "man-made". Questions like "why this particular mantra?" and "Where did it originate?" consumed my mind. To be honest, I still am curious about those things!
But as my practice expanded, I realized the only aspect that wasn't rooted in AYP techniques was the mantra, which was the core technique of AYP!
So if you, like I was, are a bit skeptical of, or averse to, the mantra — at least make a plan to give it a few weeks at some point in the future. I was quite surprised by the improvement in quality of my sits, and it was an experience that was very directly correlated to the switch to mantra use. |
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1730 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2014 : 4:35:13 PM
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Hi Yogaman
Thank you for sharing. Your post answers a question that I asked myself a few days ago.
I had switched to breath focused meditation a few months ago to redress overloading. I really like it and it feels the right meditation technique for me at the moment. So much so that I started to wonder - what if I stayed with with it for the long haul? Would I be missing anything by not returning to the mantra? Great to hear your views on it. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2014 : 04:48:09 AM
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Hi Yogaman,
I also switched to breath meditation due to overload symptoms, and I must admit I tend to have the same view as yours about the mantra vs breath. I would have a few questions for you:
- What were your overload symptoms ?
- What kind of progress had you made thanks to the year of breath meditation ?
- Are you able to repeat the mantra independantly from your breath rythm ? (personally I can't)
Thanks for sharing your valuable experience ! |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - Aug 11 2014 : 11:42:22 AM
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I did not have any overload symptoms. In fact, I wasn't experiencing much during the breath focus months. Some inner energy finally stirred after about a year. But things have really progressed since switching back to mantra.
I too was struggling with the mantra repetitions getting synchronized with the breath, but that goes away in time. That was one of my initial reasons for switching back to the breath focus.
As far as those that do experience overload, I'd follow the AYP lessons: stick with the mantra, reduce the length of time spend on each practice, and reduce the practices if need be.
For me, I feel that a small asana routine and the rests in corpse pose between each practice are helpful. I use a modified (reduced) version of the AYP asana starter kit. So perhaps some light asanas and meditation with mantra if you are experiencing overload. That's my take from the AYP lessons. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2014 : 02:58:05 AM
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Thank you Yogaman for your answer. I had to switch to breath according to AYP lesson for oversensitive meditators, as reducing mantra DM time did not solve the problems (appearing as from few seconds of DM in the end).
Apart from this overload issue, I must admit that I still have a problem with the use of a mantra, although it seems to give good results here. Indeed, I believe the aim of meditation is to stop thinking and enter into stillness. To me repeating a mantra is keeping the mind active, which seems opposite to our goal, isn't it ? |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2014 : 03:51:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dofa66
Indeed, I believe the aim of meditation is to stop thinking and enter into stillness. To me repeating a mantra is keeping the mind active, which seems opposite to our goal, isn't it ?
Hi dofa66, meditation happens after some amount of sustained concentration. So the mantra is just an object you use for concentration purpose, it is not the goal of meditation. Silence happens by itself, when you loose the mantra after several repetitions.
I read this in yoga books several times in the past but to be honest I never understood it. But now my experience of daily yoga practice really is in line whith it.  |
Edited by - Ecdyonurus on Aug 12 2014 06:02:09 AM |
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Ayiram
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2014 : 08:48:17 AM
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Hi dofa,
in the lesson 188 Yogani writes:quote:
... With this mantra we are bringing the mind to stillness in such a way so as to purify the full length of the spinal nerve. By using a mantra that resonates between the third eye and the root, we are following the safest and most balanced path of awakening...
Yes, it sounds like a paradox - we´re quieting the mind by making it busy.
Sometimes it may seem like we´re only adding some more noise when repeating the mantra, but those are the times when we either take the mantra for granted or when we force it by having certain expectations. Those things can be really subtle sometimes.
But if we manage to drop all that, if we just keep picking it GENTLY up and keep MENTALLY SURRENDERING ourselves to it...then we can feel our mind relaxing and expanding into our consciousness... this is like giving our mind divine food.
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2014 : 10:35:58 AM
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Well, I appreciate your comments.
I believe the main point is: "Silence happens by itself, when you loose the mantra after several repetitions." I admit I never lost the mantra in more than 7 months of practice twice a day  ... (and I am picking it up gently, not forcing it at all)
Maybe this is supposed to happen after a much longer practice time... however I feel I could lose attention to breath more easily than losing the mantra. Anyway, as I am oversensitive, I had to leave the mantra, at least for a while. |
Edited by - dofa66 on Aug 12 2014 10:58:22 AM |
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Dogboy
USA
2207 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2014 : 1:44:02 PM
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Always surrender to the Guru's advice.  |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2014 : 2:27:12 PM
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| Hi dofa66, are you sure that you never lost contact with the mantra, not even for some seconds? In my experience, I don't go from - let's say - 5' of mantra into 15' of pure silence. No, it's more like some minutes of mantra followed by a short silence. Then again some mantra and another silent moment. And so on. After sme months of practice, I can say that the silence duration is longer and deeper now than in the beginning. |
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Ayiram
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 12 2014 : 5:33:16 PM
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dofa, Ecdyonurus,
the aim of DM is not gaining more and more inner silence. the aim of DM is purification of our nervous system, which we´re achieving by favoring the mantra. inner silence, peace, joy, creativity... those are all byproducts of DM. if inner silence would be the goal of DM, then Yogani would say: favor the mantra until you reach the state of inner silence and then let the mantra go and stay with the silence. and that´s not the case. Yogani keeps repeating, during DM, always favor the mantra,regardless the scenery.in this case, inner silence is scenery. why? because when you consciously choose to stay with the silence, you´re at the same time consciously dropping the mantra, and that means you´re favoring the silence above the mantra. and that´s not DM anymore.
and dofa,
of course, like Dogboy says, you should always go with your gut feel. you´ll know when the time will be right for you to switch from breath to the mantra meditation. you have your unique timeline.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1537 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2014 : 12:38:54 AM
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Dear all, Ayiram is right and one thing we miss over and over again: Yogani says - Look for results in your daily life.
The fact of the matter is that Deep Meditation is not very deep (at least to me) because "deep" implies falling into some kind of expanded stillness state. What happens is that the Stillness rises to the surface and pours out into your daily life.
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2014 : 03:02:42 AM
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| Thank you all for your good advices and reminders. I will keep on using breath till the guru in me suggests to switch back to mantra |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2014 : 04:14:10 AM
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Hi Ayiriam and SeySorcière, interesting and very clear! Thanky you!
So could we say the mantra is a vehicle which leads us TOWARD more silence but not INTO pure silence?
Maybe what I personally feel as "silence" during DM is not "pure silence" but just "less noise" (which by the way is already a huge gain since my mind used to chat a lot more and faster before I started yoga).
And, yes: Yogani's advice to look at results in daily life and not so much during practices is great. I also found it easy to use although I was skeptical in the beginning (just wondered how could I recognize effects of AYM in daily life, but ithis was actually the easy part of self pacing; the hard part was to accept to reduce practice time because I tend to become attached to it).
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Ayiram
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2014 : 08:52:24 AM
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Hi Ecdyonurus,
quote:
So could we say the mantra is a vehicle which leads us TOWARD more silence but not INTO pure silence?
You get to experience pure silence during DM as well.
Now you´re wondering about the mantra, I suppose? Yes, that´s when you lose the mantra, but it´s because you can´t do otherwise. While you´re in that state you can´t think about being in that state, if you get what I mean. Only after you´re out of it, you know you were in it.
Those are the moments in which we get to have a glimpse of our true nature although the work of the mantra is still not done.
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Edited by - Ayiram on Aug 13 2014 08:53:00 AM |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2014 : 09:59:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayiram
Yes, that´s when you lose the mantra, but it´s because you can´t do otherwise. While you´re in that state you can´t think about being in that state, if you get what I mean. Only after you´re out of it, you know you were in it.
Those are the moments in which we get to have a glimpse of our true nature although the work of the mantra is still not done.
I know this from reading experiences from others in this forum and in several books, but I have not experienced it by myself once in 9 months of DM practice. Could it be that it takes years of practice before it happens ? |
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2014 : 10:04:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayiram
Hi Ecdyonurus,
quote:
So could we say the mantra is a vehicle which leads us TOWARD more silence but not INTO pure silence?
You get to experience pure silence during DM as well.
Now you´re wondering about the mantra, I suppose? Yes, that´s when you lose the mantra, but it´s because you can´t do otherwise. While you´re in that state you can´t think about being in that state, if you get what I mean. Only after you´re out of it, you know you were in it.
Those are the moments in which we get to have a glimpse of our true nature although the work of the mantra is still not done.
Yes - I call "silence" those (short) moments where my mind is so still that it's like if I don't even exist. Such a moment ends when I suddenly realize that... I am not thinking! |
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Ayiram
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2014 : 12:09:57 PM
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dear dofa,
quote:
I know this from reading experiences from others in this forum and in several books, but I have not experienced it by myself once in 9 months of DM practice. Could it be that it takes years of practice before it happens ?
There´s no rule about when one is to experience something or not...your journey is unique,not better not worse than anyone else´s...all in its own time...you won´t miss anything you shouldn´t be missing, don´t worry!
. . .
dear Ecdyonurus,
good to hear! happy for you!
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2014 : 12:21:18 PM
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Dear Ayiram,
After "don't worry!"... you should have added "be happy!" I guess |
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Ayiram
88 Posts |
Posted - Aug 13 2014 : 1:29:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dofa66
Dear Ayiram,
After "don't worry!"... you should have added "be happy!" I guess
actually, I did that on purpose  ... I left that part to you! |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1537 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2014 : 01:19:12 AM
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Actually deeper silence is reached during Samyama and the rest period after - then you are resting in the Stillness; a touch of butterfly wings on the sutra, rest in stillness, touch sutra, rest in stillness. And in the rest period, you can "black-out" completely - total, cannot remember integration into the Stillness (?)
That does not mean it cannot/does not happen during DM or SBP - it does. There are others states that happen as well.
Sey
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2014 : 06:59:42 AM
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Hi SeySorcière
What I am experiencing now is in line whith your last post: the first couple of minutes after DM is really when I feel deep silence, and sometimes a kind of blackout for some short moments. After that silent moment, images of beloved ones spontaeously arise in my mind and this is a nice transition between DM and daily activity.
I tried samyama but I quit after some weeks. I had a small glimpse of the power of that practice but I did not feel ready for it so I just stopped. |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - Aug 14 2014 : 11:44:14 AM
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Some interesting discussions here. One thing I'd like to make clear: my intention with this post was not to analyze the mechanics of mantra (my inquisitive mind is on hold for once!), but rather to suggest to those in the same hesitant, analytical and skeptical mindset to just give the mantra approach a good, long chance and let direct experience be the deciding factor for you.
I know I had "logically" explained why breath focus was "better" for me at one point. But by just following the lessons and allowing for some awkwardness (mantra synchronized to breath, not being sure if I was doing it correctly, etc), eventually like all the other techniques they will settle into their own groove in time.
Like me, it may take more time for some than for others. It can be frustrating to read of those who (claim to) have these astounding experiences after a few weeks when you have been on the cushion for many months.
I feel like I am where I imagined I'd be after a few months, only it has been 18 months now.
So, in short my intention was to suggest to those who, like me, intellectualized themselves away from using the mantra to give it another chance. I don't know how, why or where, but I've noticed a dramatic change in my sits since going back to the mantra and doing so with less expectations and anxiousness. |
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dofa66
France
46 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2014 : 03:26:33 AM
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Hi Yogaman,
I am ready to follow your advice fully. You said previously that "Some inner energy finally stirred after about a year" of breath meditation. Could you give more details about this step ? Thanks ! |
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Yogaman
USA
295 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2014 : 2:12:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dofa66
Hi Yogaman,
I am ready to follow your advice fully. You said previously that "Some inner energy finally stirred after about a year" of breath meditation. Could you give more details about this step ? Thanks !
My advice is merely to follow the AYP lessons, just to be clear :)
As far as the "inner energy", I believe it is what AYP lessons refer to as "prana", and is definitely related to spinal breathing pranayama. That said, I'm not certain it is "prana" and therefore just refer to it as "inner energy".
It is difficult to explain the sensation, but it feels as if there is some sort of "energy field" within the torso that circulates from pelvis to the brow, in a fluid and undulating pattern. Typically mildly pleasurable or neutral in sensation, at times strong and intense.
There is nothing particularly enlightening about it, however it does serve as a physical confirmation that "something" is happening. It's a nice milestone/confirmation for my skeptical, inquisitive mind. When someone says "do X and experience Y", having that happen helps keep me on the path.
All that said, don't forget self-pacing, and to go back and re-read the AYP lessons and books on Deep Meditation and Spinal Breathing. Establishing the practice seems to be the most important step at the start. You can't rush any of these things anyways, so best to temper your expectations and anxiousness for experience.
Hope that helps. |
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Dogboy
USA
2207 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2014 : 2:50:25 PM
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quote:
It is difficult to explain the sensation, but it feels as if there is some sort of "energy field" within the torso that circulates from pelvis to the brow, in a fluid and undulating pattern. Typically mildly pleasurable or neutral in sensation, at times strong and intense.
You explained this nicely. For me there is also a 'vibratory pocket' just past the nostrils in the nasal cavity, when active, makes a wireless connection to the perineum when attention is placed there. No wonder, as the pineal gland and the ketchari sweet spot are neighbors to this cavity. |
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Mantra: stick with it
